Ember Won't Be Viable Until Some Changes Are Made

[BigPapiPimp]

On 3/7/2018 at 4:35 PM, Maka.Bones said:

So part of the issues I mentioned, was that ember would get killed fast if I didn't play her *super fast*. What I mean by that is this:

I would like to play like that as well--It's how I used to play when I was first unlocking the star chart, and how I still play with excalibro. However at higher lvl content, it's not practical/efficient... for the sake of staying alive. If enemies weren't able to oneshot me, and instead they had a more creative AI (or required different tactics/strategy to kill) then that wouldn't be the case. What you explained, is exactly the reason why players keep crying out "ember needs more survivability". Most players aren't asking to be able to clear the room instantly. Instead, they want to be able to enjoy her without it feeling like a rushed chore/struggle for survival. I mean, I do enjoy that kind of difficulty sometimes... but not *all* of the time. Especially not when other warframes do ember's job, better than her. Yeah, it puts salt in the wound to see that we can't play ember with the same degree of freedom/fun. 

But yeah, I share the same mindset/playstyle. That's how I like to enjoy the game for the most part. 

Why does she have to be everything? I would rather her do two thing well, and be passive ok at another, then be an OP does everything herself type frame. If your solo, I think it should be hard to survive as ember. if your not ducking and weaving while squirting propane in their eyes, you should worry about getting shot.

if you don’t want to worry about dying and you want stroll casually through enemy fire at high levels, play valk, trinity, or harrow. Better yet play ember and ask your friend to play trinity or harrow, or ash with his group in is augment.

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, DeadMansChest said:

The point is that Nezha is significantly easier to use by comparison. Saryn is significantly easier to use by comparison. Frost is significantly easier to use by comparison. Their purposes may be different but going off ease of use, Ember is not on this list. 

That's great.  For the people who want to be able to turn off gameplay and skill-lessly kill everything from total safety, there are frames for that.  For people who want to pretend that Warframe is still an actual game, there's Ember.  

[ligonare]

On 3/5/2018 at 11:05 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

 

1ST - Fire Ball - Still isn't that good, but it is pretty close to getting there. The charge up time to get the max Fire Ball effect is way too slow and isn't good enough to use. Fire Ball itself is also pretty slow. Let's take the general concept and make it a bit more useful in higher levels.

• increase projectile fight speed of normal Fire Ball by 20%
• charging to the max changes Fire Ball to a two handed action
  • much bigger Fire Ball
    • much faster travel time
  • guaranteed knockdown chance with added blast damage
  • fire damage is doubled, along with area damage.
  • current lingering AOE effect shall be effected by range
  • 75% fire status chance

This should make the ideas that DE were going for much much better to use, and also fun! Like a Kamehameha, but Fire? Wait! It's a burning Spirit Ball!

Like to point out that a madurai-mastered operator can chuck much more potent fireballs with flame blast and rising blast than the current iteration of fireball that;

• can crit
• travels way faster
• cost less in energy:capacity ratio
• has way faster charge time

Hope DE takes some pointers

[BigPapiPimp]

On 3/5/2018 at 7:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Like a Kamehameha, but Fire? Wait! It's a burning Spirit Ball!

I’m holding out on DE making frosts 1 chargeable for all my kamehameha needs.

[DeadMansChest]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

That's great.  For the people who want to be able to turn off gameplay and skill-lessly kill everything from total safety, there are frames for that.  For people who want to pretend that Warframe is still an actual game, there's Ember.  

That's some seriously flawed logic and you know it. There is no reason to have a frame be objectively worse than other frames just so one can flaunt "muh skill" in using it.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

That's great.  For the people who want to be able to turn off gameplay and skill-lessly kill everything from total safety, there are frames for that.  For people who want to pretend that Warframe is still an actual game, there's Ember.  

The most skill-heavy Warframe in the game, Harrow, is still easier to use than Ember in high level. I really don't see why people are opposed to buffing Ember, especially if they know she has problems. I'm not asking that she's able to do absolutely everything by herself at the same time. I'm asking that she be better than she is (and also to remove World on Fire, I hate that thing).

1 hour ago, ligonare said:

Hope DE takes some pointers

Someone tag a Dev for this guy, plz. You know what's up.

1 hour ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I’m holding out on DE making frosts 1 chargeable for all my kamehameha needs.

Now I kinda' wanna' look at Frost.

Edited March 9, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

@(PS4)KnowLedge

That is literally what everyone has always run with Ember. It does not change anything.

________________

@(PS4)JCM_Unlimited

This is exactly what I was going to say! Seriously, what reason is there to disagree with this post here? It's not making her overpowered or nerfing her in any sense. It is simply making her much more effective than ever before, while encouraging some diversity in builds. With this, she can be on par with other Frames, and fix her problems!

Not true. The majority run range and firequake. However I see you definitely haven't a clue about her. I'll just keep beastin with her while you cry on the forums... 

Edited March 9, 2018 by (PS4)KnowLedge

[Maka.Bones]

5 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I’m holding out on DE making frosts 1 chargeable for all my kamehameha needs.

I didn't know I had kamehameha needs until now...

[RealPandemonium]

On 3/9/2018 at 1:29 PM, DeadMansChest said:

That's some seriously flawed logic and you know it. There is no reason to have a frame be objectively worse than other frames just so one can flaunt "muh skill" in using it.

The point of a game is to have fun.  I'm not having fun going into, say, an interception, and pressing 4 every 10 seconds until extraction.  If you want to do this, you can bring Rhino and do it.  Even bring a macro so you can watch Netflix, or something? 

In Warframe, an already easy game, "objectively better" usually boils down to "shuts gameplay off," "effectively immortal," "infinite one-shots," etc.  It says something that enemies need to be double the level of what Damage 2.0 was calibrated for, in order for players to even feel like they're being challenged.  Ember is an example of a design that has some cheese but makes the player work for the win at higher levels, vs things like Rhino/Loki/etc that trivialize the game by design, or Mesa with overtuned damage potential, etc.  

On 3/9/2018 at 2:41 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

The most skill-heavy Warframe in the game, Harrow, is still easier to use than Ember in high level. I really don't see why people are opposed to buffing Ember, especially if they know she has problems. I'm not asking that she's able to do absolutely everything by herself at the same time. I'm asking that she be better than she is (and also to remove World on Fire, I hate that thing).

Idk what you mean by Harrow being skill-based?  Headshot gimmicks or something?  Seems like a non sequitur.  

I don't have problems using Ember in Sorties.  I'm not that good at shooters; if I can do it, it shouldn't be an unreasonable standard for others to achieve.  IMO 90% of peoples' problems with Ember start with opinions they hear from others, that she's only good for afk trash clearing on sub-level 30, or that she does no damage, or other things based on hearsay and not on game knowledge.  Then they take a half-modded Ember with a duration or low range build or minimum efficiency (etc,) build to a Sortie, eat dirt, and then come to this forum.

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I don't have problems using Ember in Sorties.  I'm not that good at shooters; if I can do it, it shouldn't be an unreasonable standard for others to achieve.

Yeah? well bud, i'm having a pretty rough time at it.  So either you're actually pretty good at shooters, or i'm just really f-ing bad. In either case, there are also plenty of other people who are having a hard time using ember in sorties. Just because you can use her, doesn't mean everyone else can--or should be able to--use her fine. 

I've tried more than one build btw. I've tried a lot of different builds tbh. So GJ on being able to use ember in sorties, but a lot of us still have a hard time at it. So just because *you can do it* doesn't mean that it shoud unvalidate the rest of our opinions--because honestly, all you're doing by saying that is:

On 3/9/2018 at 10:29 AM, DeadMansChest said:

...flaunt[ing] 'muh skill' in using [her]

 Also, people praise accelerant, but i'll repeat that the CC on accelerant really doesn't last very long. 

[Maka.Bones]

Oh, and here are my "half-modded" ember builds. Just so you know that i'm not just using her in *one* playstyle. :)

 

 

 

I did try flash accelerant btw, but it just wasn't as effective as firequake. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:48 AM, BigPapiPimp said:

Why does she have to be everything? I would rather her do two thing well, and be passive ok at another, then be an OP does everything herself type frame. If your solo, I think it should be hard to survive as ember. if your not ducking and weaving while squirting propane in their eyes, you should worry about getting shot.

if you don’t want to worry about dying and you want stroll casually through enemy fire at high levels, play valk, trinity, or harrow. Better yet play ember and ask your friend to play trinity or harrow, or ash with his group in is augment.

Why can't I just play solo?

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 3/5/2018 at 7:40 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

A third ability that'll get you killed if used as intended and is also extremely weak.

I've actually been using the bonus Ring damage for my allies, not myself. It's been working out nicely. 

My more durable allies have been able to stay in the ring during Defense/Excavation/Mobile Defense/Interception missions and benefit from the extra fire damage which allows them to benefit from Accelerant. 

It's a huge team damage boost. It's a situational side function the primary blast function of the ability anyway. Unfortunately, most Embers are still only concerned with themselves because of how they've played her over the years.

As far as the other changes, her 1st ability needs a shorter charge time, and her 4th definitely should just be replaced all together. Good embers just build around her Accelerant anyway since WoF was always terrible.

[xXDeadsinxX]

On 3/5/2018 at 10:04 AM, helioth137 said:

hmm let's take a look... 

ash main; can solo level 9999 survival missions with covert lethality + fatal teleport + arcane trickery x2 (does not break on nullifier bubble), ash is dead? lives on regret island? bs.

Any frame could kill enemies with Covert Lethality, really has nothing to do with Ash. Sure, it benefits Ash while you’re using it with him, but any frame can kill high level enemies with covert lethality. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by xXDeadsinxX

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

 Also, people praise accelerant, but i'll repeat that the CC on accelerant really doesn't last very long. 

It's not supposed to.  But hey, it costs 13 energy.  Spam to your heart's content, if you really need to.

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I did try flash accelerant btw, but it just wasn't as effective as firequake. 

Lots of Flow in there for some reason?  Flash Accelerant will substantially increase damage of both weapons and powers.  Easily better than Firequake's quasi-cc offerings, IMO.  

8 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Any frame could kill enemies with Covert Lethality, really has nothing to do with Ash. Sure, it benefits Ash you’re using it with him, but any frame can kill high level enemies with covert lethality. 

Don't be coy.  Ash has finishers built into one of his powers.  I would say that BS is more cheesy, though, especially now that it's 100% free-movement.  

[xXDeadsinxX]

1 minute ago, RealPandemonium said:

Don't be coy.  Ash has finishers built into one of his powers.  I would say that BS is more cheesy, though, especially now that it's 100% free-movement.  

Not disagreeing with you, at all. I was stating that any frame can kill high level enemies with covert Lethality, Ash isn’t the only one who can do so.

[RealPandemonium]

Just now, xXDeadsinxX said:

Not disagreeing with you, at all. I was stating that any frame can kill high level enemies with covert Lethality, Ash isn’t the only one who can do so.

Agreed.  Excal is probably a worse offender in this regard anyway.  

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:11 PM, (PS4)KnowLedge said:

Not true. The majority run range and firequake. However I see you definitely haven't a clue about her. I'll just keep beastin with her while you cry on the forums... 

Um...

Quote

Those are the first 5 I saw. Power strength. Efficiency. One with range mixed in.

And how am I crying on the forums, lol? I made a post proposing a possible rework to Ember to make her better than she ever was before without making her overpowered and listing her weaknesses and how to counter it without making her absolutely a god at everything.

The only one who could possibly be crying is you.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The point of a game is to have fun.  I'm not having fun going into, say, an interception, and pressing 4 every 10 seconds until extraction.  If you want to do this, you can bring Rhino and do it.  Even bring a macro so you can watch Netflix, or something? 

In Warframe, an already easy game, "objectively better" usually boils down to "shuts gameplay off," "effectively immortal," "infinite one-shots," etc.  It says something that enemies need to be double the level of what Damage 2.0 was calibrated for, in order for players to even feel like they're being challenged.  Ember is an example of a design that has some cheese but makes the player work for the win at higher levels, vs things like Rhino/Loki/etc that trivialize the game by design, or Mesa with overtuned damage potential, etc.

I'm going to try to compare Ember to a Frame that does just about the same thing she's supposed to, a ton of damage. Let's use Saryn, who is yes: objectively better, and not because of any of these reasons you mentioned. If you've played Bloodbourne before, this is Saryn:

Spoiler

Saryn has high damage potential and does require some sort of understand without trying to look like a total pro.

Spoiler

This is pretty much what Ember is now. She isn't good for anything, she's just there. A blank slate with just a concept in mind waiting for something new to make her powerful. Players in Bloodbourne mainly pick this if they want to prove how good they are at the game. That's what I compare Ember to.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

It's not supposed to.  But hey, it costs 13 energy.  Spam to your heart's content, if you really need to.

Firequake still costs less energy, last longer, and it's re-applied without requiring me to stop my movement/shooting. :) 

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lots of Flow in there for some reason?  Flash Accelerant will substantially increase damage of both weapons and powers.  Easily better than Firequake's quasi-cc offerings, IMO.  

Flow is there for WoF/Firequake. Especially needed with the increased cost. The damage from accelerant is insignificant, since my weapons already oneshot enemies (two shots in sorties. plus adding heat damage, would only hurt my corrosive/viral procs; nty, I won't be touching heat damage for weps. It only looks good on paper)

Firequake is *Much* better than some mediocre fire damage, which your weps don't need to begin with. And better than spamming 2, every 4 seconds (make a macro, like you said... except I would prefer to spam 4, every 10 sec. Over spamming 2, every 4 sec).  It costs less energy, for time spent. It also doesn't halt your movement, so you're able to move freely and focus on gunplay--everytime you cast accelerant, ember stops moving/aiming/anything she's doing, for accelerant's 1s animation.  So that's a halt which would repeat every. four. seconds. 

In fact, I perform better by purely/only focusing on gunplay, than using accelerant at all. 

In sorties, I perform better without using any of Ember abilities--With the exception of WoF, which isn't needed.  If I would prefer to not use her abilities at all--over pure gunplay--That by itself should tell you how bad ember's kit currently is. Seeing no gameplay contribution from a warframe's kit, essentially means that the warframe is useless for that content. I only like her because the idea behind her is cool AF, and her abilities look cool. 

Edit: I'm going to repeat it again, just to make sure you understand it. 

Firequake did help out a lot with CC in the past. Though now that i've had to learn how to use her without its range, she's essentially useless to me. I only use her because she's a guilty pleasure, and has cool aesthetics. 

I'm not saying accelerant itself is completely useless--It does have its uses once in a while. But it isn't essential, because I can perform almost exactly the same without relying on it. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

Making a few videos to actually showcase & compare accelerant's performance V.S. firequake--and to illustrate why firequake is considered to be ember's best CC & survival ability atm. 

Just need a better videoeditor atm

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

My more durable allies have been able to stay in the ring during Defense/Excavation/Mobile Defense/Interception missions and benefit from the extra fire damage which allows them to benefit from Accelerant. 

It's a huge team damage boost. It's a situational side function the primary blast function of the ability anyway. Unfortunately, most Embers are still only concerned with themselves because of how they've played her over the years.

As far as the other changes, her 1st ability needs a shorter charge time, and her 4th definitely should just be replaced all together. Good embers just build around her Accelerant anyway since WoF was always terrible.

Sounds very opinionated, and situational. 
I'll be more clear: 

That damage buff, would only be useful if your teams are having issues killing the enemy to begin with. It isn't useful at all when it comes to endgame content. 

WoF built for firequake is actually a much better form of CC, than spamming accelerant every 4 seconds. Because accelerant costs more energy, and it also halts your movement each time that it is cast. While firequake allows free movement, and re-applies the CC on its own. "Good embers"... would know this. 

If you're already using good weapons against the enemy faction you're fighting, you won't ever need to make use of the extra damage from ember. If I want to support my teammates, i'd rather play as trinity, rhino, banshee, frost, or nova. Flash accelerant is nice for them, yes.... But there are many other warframes who can give *much better* team support than embet's "weapon damage buffs"

The only time players would really benefit from those buffs, is if they're new players. Or if they're leveling up new gear/weapons against infested. So that's a very situational buff. Meaning that ember is really only useful for powerlvling gear, in infested maps. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

That damage buff, would only be useful if your teams are having issues killing the enemy to begin with. It isn't useful at all when it comes to endgame content.

That's where I have to disagree with you. The Fire Blast buff does make quick work of high level enemies with the correct setup.

 

[Maka.Bones]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

That's where I have to disagree with you. The Fire Blast buff does make quick work of high level enemies with the correct setup.

 

So does my tigris, corinth, vectis, lex, euphona, melee weapons.... dude the list goes on and on.

In order to actually make the damage buff useful, you'd need to use sub-par builds/weapons. Or to make your build worse, with the sole purpose of making ember's buff work. It's redundant. 

 

Edit: and dude.... he's using a mara detron. The weapon by itself can do that just fine. It doesn't need ember's buffs. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

9 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

So does my tigris, corinth, vectis, lex, euphona, melee weapons.... dude the list goes on and on.

In order to actually make the damage buff useful, you'd need to use sub-par builds/weapons. Or to make your build worse, with the sole purpose of making ember's buff work. It's redundant. 

 

Edit: and dude.... he's using a mara detron. The weapon by itself can do that just fine. It doesn't need ember's buffs. 

I'm not saying it needs an Ember buff, but it sure does benefit from it, especially since you want to take enemies out quickly in higher level content. This is good for it.