Ember Won't Be Viable Until Some Changes Are Made

[MindHoney]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Go back and read the post.

I cant go back to the post and "this is were you DON'T show why shes nurfed" if its there show me, because the only "prof" or argument you give is that shes not vibile to you. Witch is not showning why shes not vibile. The start of the post sounds like you writing out an essay, but why i question one of your assumptions, the whole thing falls apart. 

[Terrornaut]

12 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

When your weapon is already getting +800% damage from other sources, that extra 50% damage is very small in comparison. I don't need the animation delay, if my weapon can two shot the enemy both with, and without the damage buff from ember.

I made a video, and with the corrosion build tigris only took a couple of shots to take down a lvl 130, corrupted heavy gunner eximus. With ember's accelerant damage buff, my tigris took the exact amount of shots to kill the same enemy. Sure it helped, just like 10 extra damage can help; the benefit was barely noticable.  

If you don't believe me, just watch the entire video. (should probably mute it too.... sorry I don't have good video-editing software atm)

Dude....

I watched maybe 8 minutes, but, you ...don't seem to realize how accelerant works.

You had corrosive and blast, and not even flash accelerant.
Accelerant doesn't buff partial heat using elements, rad gas blast. Flash accelerant will but that's only a small mod, prob 125% heat added as a heat weapon mod would.

Your power strength in that build is useless, and I'm not saying it to be harsh or anything, just that you have power strength and it is accomplishing nothing with your gear.

Take out blast and leave heat on there.

You weren't using any part of accelerant for damage, and if this is how you've been building weapons, no wonder you see no effectiveness in it.  You haven't been using it all along dude.

Maybe you went later in the video and changed build setup, can't watch all of it right now, but if you didn't and never had...no wonder you have the opinion that you do. The origin of your thoughts makes logical sense, at least.
 

----

Also, shows that you didn't watch my video, which is fine, it's long as hell, but, you would not have made this video or mistake if you'd seen it, or checked wiki on Ember and Accelerant.  But again, could be wrong, still can't watch your full video yet.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Terrornaut

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 hour ago, MindHoney said:

I cant go back to the post and "this is were you DON'T show why shes nurfed" if its there show me, because the only "prof" or argument you give is that shes not vibile to you. Witch is not showning why shes not vibile. The start of the post sounds like you writing out an essay, but why i question one of your assumptions, the whole thing falls apart. 

At the start of the essay and before I talk about every single ability, and even when talking about how to change the ability I tell you what's wrong with them. Pretty much the entire post is me talking about what's wrong with Ember!

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

Dude....

I watched maybe 8 minutes, but, you ...don't seem to realize how accelerant works.

You had corrosive and blast, and not even flash accelerant.
Accelerant doesn't buff partial heat using elements, rad gas blast. Flash accelerant will but that's only a small mod, prob 125% heat added as a heat weapon mod would.

Your power strength in that build is useless, and I'm not saying it to be harsh or anything, just that you have power strength and it is accomplishing nothing with your gear.

Take out blast and leave heat on there.

You weren't using any part of accelerant for damage, and if this is how you've been building weapons, no wonder you see no effectiveness in it.  You haven't been using it all along dude.

Maybe you went later in the video and changed build setup, can't watch all of it right now, but if you didn't and never had...no wonder you have the opinion that you do. The origin of your thoughts makes logical sense, at least.
 

----

Also, shows that you didn't watch my video, which is fine, it's long as hell, but, you would not have made this video or mistake if you'd seen it, or checked wiki on Ember and Accelerant.  But again, could be wrong, still can't watch your full video yet.

Yeah, watch the rest of the vid, because I did use flash accelerant later. THOUGH, I never reverted to using full heat damage. Simply because of the loss of status/armor stripping. Idk maybe I #*!%ed up there... maybe I should've used corrosive and heat instead. 

[Maka.Bones]

@Terrornaut I'm actually sorry that the vid is so poorly made/hard to watch. I'll edit it tonight. That way it's more concise, easier to watch, and easier to understand what I'm trying to communicate. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Terrornaut]

56 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

@Terrornaut I'm actually sorry that the vid is so poorly made/hard to watch. I'll edit it tonight. That way it's more concise, easier to watch, and easier to understand what I'm trying to communicate. 

Is totally cool. I'm figuring this out as well, been so long since I edited vids.

And yeah you never need to go full heat unless you have constant full armor stripping from another weapon or player, and then yes absolutely have one wep go full heat and numbers will fly. 

Otherwise, corrosive+heat with most damage on corrosive and as high as status as possible will yield the most damage over time when it actually matters.  Accelerant and flash accelerant will leap that damage up, or, if you have 2 elements that don't have heat in them, flash accel will then add heat damage as a third element. 

I spent half the morning on my day off making some vids to show this compared to your corrosive/blast viral/rad builds but still working on sound.  Did some other vids instead.

[Maka.Bones]

17 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Is totally cool. I'm figuring this out as well, been so long since I edited vids.

And yeah you never need to go full heat unless you have constant full armor stripping from another weapon or player, and then yes absolutely have one wep go full heat and numbers will fly. 

Otherwise, corrosive+heat with most damage on corrosive and as high as status as possible will yield the most damage over time when it actually matters.  Accelerant and flash accelerant will leap that damage up, or, if you have 2 elements that don't have heat in them, flash accel will then add heat damage as a third element. 

I spent half the morning on my day off making some vids to show this compared to your corrosive/blast viral/rad builds but still working on sound.  Did some other vids instead.

Yeah, the reason i was using corrosive + blast is because tigris prime requires all 4 dualstat mods, to reach 100% status chance. If I removed the cold damage mod, it wouldn't have the 100% status (or the increased reload speed, for other tigris builds) 

Accelerant DID work pretty well with my Sylva & Aegis prime, built around CO.... But so did firequake, because of ground finishers. That's at the very end of the video though--and my main point as to why accelerant's damage bonus, isn't as nice at higher lvls when you already have good weps. Also why I prefer firequake as a CC, over accelerant/flash accelerant.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[MindHoney]

4 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

At the start of the essay and before I talk about every single ability, and even when talking about how to change the ability I tell you what's wrong with them. Pretty much the entire post is me talking about what's wrong with Ember!

 

Okay will breakdown you post that, the way you open it is quite literally asserting an opinion. You are making your entire argument biased by opening up by saying 'let's face it she's bad'. You don't give any reinforcement about why this is. According to you she suffers from a lot of factors, and is not viable. However you follow this up by saying she is a damage frame was damage is fallen off, like all damage frames. There are very few frames in this game the scale, ember is not one of them. 

Then go on to have two quotes which I don't know where they are from because you don't source them, for all I know you could literally be quoting yourself. 

The argument presented in the second quote is valid, the idea put forward by whoever you quoted was to make it so that you don't necessarily want to have world on fire on at all times. Which you then go down to say yes but that means she can't survive. The reason you give us because her world on fire was in her, which means her CC was nerved, which means apparently she can't survive. That is the part that I don't understand why she is bad, just because a frame can't make a room instantly locked down, and saved does not mean they can't survive in the room, that does not mean they can't fight. That does not mean they are not viable. 

Like I said before you did not present an argument as to why she is not viable. All you did was whine that her four was nerved. If you are going to ask any developer to change a portion of their game, because to you it is not fun, or there is something in the game that is broken, you need to present a very solid argument why. You did not present a solid argument why. If you are still wondering why, ask why it was that instead of quoting yourself, you replied to me by telling me to go read it again, and then tell me that the start of the post as well as the entire post. You don't have a concise argument, let alone an argument for an essay.

[shootaman777]

So, in other words, you want Ember's first ability to be just above complete gutter trash (as opposed to the complete gutter trash it currently is) by giving it some small QoL buffs, her second ability to become a superior version of Radial Blind, her third ability to become an infinitely superior version of Mag's Polarise with endless scaling, and her 4th to be... well, a mess.  It's an inferior version of Trinity's Blessing, an inferior version of Oberon's Renewal, and an inferior version of Equinox's Mend & Maim, combined.  (from what would be left of it if DE were to strip it of the parts of it that couldn't be implemented for various reasons)

Plus, Ember's current passive is perfectly fine.  Get a Javlok, mod it for low damage and high status chance with extra status duration.  Use the primary fire at your feet for 12 seconds of self-inflicted fire proc with minimal damage, for 120 easy energy.  The Javlok build I normally run is Vile Acceleration, Hush, Hammer Shot, Continuous Misery, Catalyser Link, Thermite Rounds, Split Chamber r4, and Firestorm.  Not a very costly build, and it gets great results. 

The kit you'd give Ember single-handedly kills Excalibur and Mag from the last metas they were still in, as blinders/armour strippers. 

You gave her the best of all worlds - tanking capabilities, debuffs, cc, support capabilities, team/self-healing potential, and damage potential.  When people say the kit is overloaded, that's because it is.  She's supposed to be a glass cannon, a nuker.  Not a jack-of-all-trades. 

Equinox fills that role (glass cannon, nuker) without the arduous setup required of getting kills over time at short range for a single long-ranged nuke that probably won't do much.  With your kit, Ember just can't compete with Equinox, since Equinox has better endless scaling potential than the percentage-based armour-stripping you gave to her third ability, since Equinox's nuking is based on enemy max health, not some small flat damage bonuses. 

Also, what is World on Fire, her new augment, supposed to do in the Plains?  Ignite the 'room', which is the entire Plains?  Also, that energy cost doesn't make sense. 

What's the range on Geyser? 

 

The reason that the Ember, pre-recent WoF nerf, had endgame potential, was because she could nuke the weaker enemies and cc the stronger enemies (so that distance could be closed and they could be nuked personally) at the same time, reliably, effectively, and in time to make a difference.  All it took was the range nerf to kill that in one fell swoop.  Her damage boost to compensate for the range nerf is trash, when taking into account that the cc/nuking is no longer in time to make a difference.  By constantly recasting her 4th ability, the same effect can be achieved as what she used to be capable of, except with a tremendously increased energy cost and a seemingly spiteful (by DE) QoL nerf. 

In my opinion, Ember is currently better as-is than reworked by your idea.  Because at the end of the day, the current WoF is still better than that kit that should not belong to her, since it was inspired by/ripped off from a selection of support Warframes.  If I want to play a support, I'll play Oberon or Trinity.  Ember was never meant to be a support. 

And, even then, on the subject of supports, Equinox's current support kit in night forme would still beat the proposed Ember idea's support potential, being able to both heal and reduce enemy damage dealt, as well as slow them down and/or open them up to finishers. 

In the end, it seems like your rework idea's goal was to make her a sidegrade to Equinox (from a results perspective).  However, you may want to re-evaluate that kit. 

Especially her proposed ultimate ability. 

 

Consider a player using Covert Lethality on a target opened to finishers by Ember's proposed second ability, while Ember's proposed 4th is active.  Target the tankiest in the group, and their health charges up your damage and range for an instant nuke on every weaker enemy in the same galaxy.  That's a combination that would never be allowed to exist.  It's like allowing Bladestorm to benefit from Covert Lethality.  It's ridiculous.  Plus, 200 damage is incredibly easy to do to enemies, over and over, so the decast would be charged near instantly, always.

I didn't address your proposed ultimate ability seriously and responded to a more moderate version of it, in my post, because I know that such an ability as the one you suggested will never be allowed to exist.  Plus, how would that ability even fit with Ember's theme, and even at the farthest stretch realistically with the idea of 'fire'? 

 

Also, can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? 

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

accumulates 50% of enemy health and/or shields for additional damage, and 50% for extra range

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

14 hours ago, MindHoney said:

Okay will breakdown you post that, the way you open it is quite literally asserting an opinion. You are making your entire argument biased by opening up by saying 'let's face it she's bad'. You don't give any reinforcement about why this is. According to you she suffers from a lot of factors, and is not viable. However you follow this up by saying she is a damage frame was damage is fallen off, like all damage frames. There are very few frames in this game the scale, ember is not one of them. 

Excalibur, Mesa, Mag, Nidus, Octavia, Wukong. They all scale, and much much better than Ember.

I give my opinion and follow it up with facts.

14 hours ago, MindHoney said:

Then go on to have two quotes which I don't know where they are from because you don't source them, for all I know you could literally be quoting yourself. 

This is a response to the Warframes Revisited thread that Rebecca posted a few weeks ago. If you read it, you'd know where it's from. If you didn't, then yeah it's misleading, I'll edit that in.

14 hours ago, MindHoney said:

You don't have a concise argument, let alone an argument for an essay.

Hold that thought while I go and quote myself.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

@MindHoney

So you said I didn't provide my argument as to why Ember's weak?

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Her whole thing is ever less effective than it was before, and makes her theoretically weaker, considering her damage can't reach far enough to control the areas that would be putting her down. The reason she will continue to be weak in this day and age of Warframe is because just damage can't do crap. She needs utility.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

The exact opposite, actually. While she is technically stronger, now she's more prone to death than ever. Nerfing the range on her World on Fire throws her surviviability in the trash, making her more prone to damage due to her not having a good enough effect on the battlefield. 

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Passive - Ignition - It is a theoretically good passive. However, with the fact that only about four or five different things can cause Ember to take fire damage, you're hardly ever gonna' get that 10 energy per second and 35% extra power strength. Additionally, Ember isn't anywhere among the tank Frames, so she won't be able to normally benefit from it with the ridiculous enemy scaling.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

1ST - Fire Ball - The charge up time to get the max Fire Ball effect is way too slow and isn't good enough to use. Fire Ball itself is also pretty slow.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Passive - Ignition - This new proposed passive is very useful (and practical), encouraging you to use heat-based weapons to increase you survivability by forcing enemies to panic. It also has high damage potential, considering enemies will suffer the burning effect for much longer than usual.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

3RD - Fire Blast - Probably the worst ability in Ember's kit. Fire Blast isn't practical to use at all in a game like Warframe. It's primary function forces you to stand still and let the ring around you keep enemies away, and it's a fairly small ring at that (that doesn't even do what it's supposed to). The expanding ring on cast is alright at best, but the effect only lasts for 3 seconds which is absolutely nothing. On top of that its damage is absolutely terrible. The only situation this would ever be even somewhat practical in is Infestation missions because most of them can't shoot you. However, DE has been shoving the Grineer down our throats since day 1, so the ability should be useful across all factions.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

3RD - Fire Blast - These proposed changes to Ember's Fire Blast will actually allow her to scale much higher into the game, and allow her to achieve her intended damage potential. Fire Blast will be much more useful and see regular usage at higher levels. Don't freak out at the removal of added fire damage here. The Augment however is a very useful skill. It's pretty much what Fire Quake is now, but stationary and effective within the range of Fire Blast, encouraging you to stay nearby. Very good for defenses.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

4TH - (NEW) Ancient Inferno - Previously, World on Fire was a high range ability that dealt decent damage for "Starchart" content for little to no energy cost. This damage however lost scaling power very quickly, giving her the position of only being good for stuff below 50. Now, World on Fire can't clear rooms, which really takes away the "World" part from it. It also does more damage. But the limited range takes away survivability from Ember and Firequake. This new ability will adopt the added fire damage from Fire Blast's Ring and allow Ember to do much more damage and have some added utility.

...

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I know this sounds very overloaded and complicated, but it's really good, and the extended use is not encouraged because of the high energy cost. It can serve multiple different purposes and can put Ember back on the radar for high damage in an almost "Equinox" like way with the scaling per kill. The Mending Overheat function will make up for the low range, back returning that boost of survivability and Ember can finally benefit allies!

So what are you talking about?

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

13 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

So, in other words, you want Ember's first ability to be just above complete gutter trash (as opposed to the complete gutter trash it currently is) by giving it some small QoL buffs, her second ability to become a superior version of Radial Blind, her third ability to become an infinitely superior version of Mag's Polarise with endless scaling, and her 4th to be... well, a mess.  It's an inferior version of Trinity's Blessing, an inferior version of Oberon's Renewal, and an inferior version of Equinox's Mend & Maim, combined.  (from what would be left of it if DE were to strip it of the parts of it that couldn't be implemented for various reasons)

There are only a handful of first abilities in the game that are better than the one I proposed. So saying that this is "just above gutter trash" is saying that just about half of the first abilities in the game are gutter trash. Radial Blind has a much higher range and duration than Accelerant. Mag's Polarize really needs to be buffed, and I suggested it in another thread, so yeah, it's better than what Mag can do now, and her 4 allows Ember to buff her survivability for a short amount of time like she used to when she had Overheat, and help her allies while having massive potential damage. I also fail to see how it's inferior to Mend & Maim because while the Flames have a shorter range, it has a mass blind.

13 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

Plus, Ember's current passive is perfectly fine.  Get a Javlok, mod it for low damage and high status chance with extra status duration.  Use the primary fire at your feet for 12 seconds of self-inflicted fire proc with minimal damage, for 120 easy energy.  The Javlok build I normally run is Vile Acceleration, Hush, Hammer Shot, Continuous Misery, Catalyser Link, Thermite Rounds, Split Chamber r4, and Firestorm.  Not a very costly build, and it gets great results. 

So you're saying Ember's passive is good because one weapon in the game can activate it reliably with the right setup? Argument dismissed, that was honestly just bad. I'm not trying to kill myself for a passive to activate.

13 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

The kit you'd give Ember single-handedly kills Excalibur and Mag from the last metas they were still in, as blinders/armour strippers. 

Excalibur can still get a 70 meter blind...

Mag should go back to being an armor stripper because her Polarize is just horrible.

13 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

You gave her the best of all worlds - tanking capabilities, debuffs, cc, support capabilities, team/self-healing potential, and damage potential.  When people say the kit is overloaded, that's because it is.  She's supposed to be a glass cannon, a nuker.  Not a jack-of-all-trades. 

Equinox fills that role (glass cannon, nuker) without the arduous setup required of getting kills over time at short range for a single long-ranged nuke that probably won't do much.  With your kit, Ember just can't compete with Equinox, since Equinox has better endless scaling potential than the percentage-based armour-stripping you gave to her third ability, since Equinox's nuking is based on enemy max health, not some small flat damage bonuses. 

For a short amount of time. The high energy cost is supposed to compensate, and prevent her from staying in it forever. The reason I gave her these things is because damage alone in Warframe isn't cutting it with the ridiculous enemy scaling. The only reason some damage Frame work around that is because they use the enemy's even more ridiculous damage scaling or they benefit from their weapon mods.

You misunderstand. I said that Ember or her flames will increase the point gain. Not just the flames. Either or. That means allies won't add to the points. Additionally, the end ability function would do very much, and could reach longer ranges than Equinox. Also, the calculation I used for Ancient Inferno is a slightly tweaked version of the calculations used for Mend & Maim.

14 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

Also, what is World on Fire, her new augment, supposed to do in the Plains?  Ignite the 'room', which is the entire Plains?  Also, that energy cost doesn't make sense.

It can hold down 30 meters, which is where a lot of your enemies will be. The energy cost is 100, which is what a ton of fourth abilities already cost...?

14 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

What's the range on Geyser? 

Hmm... maybe 5 meters. I have to look at it again.

14 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

In my opinion, Ember is currently better as-is than reworked by your idea.  Because at the end of the day, the current WoF is still better than that kit that should not belong to her, since it was inspired by/ripped off from a selection of support Warframes.  If I want to play a support, I'll play Oberon or Trinity.  Ember was never meant to be a support. 

It's really not. I gave Ember high damage potential as opposed to the low one she currently has. You're also focusing way too much on the fourth ability, as if the entire post was about it.

14 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

Consider a player using Covert Lethality on a target opened to finishers by Ember's proposed second ability, while Ember's proposed 4th is active.  Target the tankiest in the group, and their health charges up your damage and range for an instant nuke on every weaker enemy in the same galaxy.  That's a combination that would never be allowed to exist.  It's like allowing Bladestorm to benefit from Covert Lethality.  It's ridiculous.  Plus, 200 damage is incredibly easy to do to enemies, over and over, so the decast would be charged near instantly, always.

Equinox can already do this...

You've been saying "Equinoxequinoxequinox" the whole time and you didn't know that? Cast rest, switch, Maim, kill. Death.

14 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

I didn't address your proposed ultimate ability seriously and responded to a more moderate version of it, in my post, because I know that such an ability as the one you suggested will never be allowed to exist.  Plus, how would that ability even fit with Ember's theme, and even at the farthest stretch realistically with the idea of 'fire'? 

What?

14 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

Also, can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? 

50% of enemy total health or shields go to the damage counter while 50% go to range, like I said.

[shootaman777]

9 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

There are only a handful of first abilities in the game that are better than the one I proposed. So saying that this is "just above gutter trash" is saying that just about half of the first abilities in the game are gutter trash. Radial Blind has a much higher range and duration than Accelerant. Mag's Polarize really needs to be buffed, and I suggested it in another thread, so yeah, it's better than what Mag can do now, and her 4 allows Ember to buff her survivability for a short amount of time like she used to when she had Overheat, and help her allies while having massive potential damage. I also fail to see how it's inferior to Mend & Maim because while the Flames have a shorter range, it has a mass blind.

Yes, half of the first abilities in the game are gutter trash.  
The reason why it would kill Excal's usage as a blinder, is because Ember would be a blinder with a more useful kit in just about any situation since she would have more debuff capabilities, especially considering her proposed armour stripping capabilities and the ranged damage dropoff of Exalted Blade waves.  
Agreed on Polarise.  
Mend & Maim has a stagger upon entry of its range, to every affected enemy.  There's no extra energy cost, no extra casting requirement, etc.  If I recall properly, only your proposed addition to Accelerant included a blind, which is a separate cast and a hassle in comparison.  

9 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

So you're saying Ember's passive is good because one weapon in the game can activate it reliably with the right setup? Argument dismissed, that was honestly just bad. I'm not trying to kill myself for a passive to activate.

You do 100-150 damage to yourself over 12 seconds.  If that's what you consider to be 'killing yourself', then we're playing a different game.  Especially when it doesn't even get past Ember's shields.  Just because you refuse to make it work; to use an easy-to-use weapon, with an easily acquired build, that offers next to no disadvantage other than taking up a primary weapon slot (which would've been taken up by something less useful, anyways), does not mean that the passive is bad.  It means that you're just intentionally choosing to put yourself at a disadvantage by not using it properly.  Try it before you knock it.  

10 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

The reason I gave her these things is because damage alone in Warframe isn't cutting it with the ridiculous enemy scaling.

The endless direct damage scaling in Equinox's Maim & Mend, and Blood Rush + Drifting Contact/Body Count/Power Spike melee builds beg to differ.  

10 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

It can hold down 30 meters, which is where a lot of your enemies will be. The energy cost is 100, which is what a ton of fourth abilities already cost...?

At that point, it'd be the same as it already is, so why change it?  

10 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

It's really not. I gave Ember high damage potential as opposed to the low one she currently has. You're also focusing way too much on the fourth ability, as if the entire post was about it.

Because Ember's 4th ability was the only reason she was ever so widely used, because it was one of the most powerful abilities in the speedrun meta that DE created.  Get rid of that utility, and she drops off the face of the galaxy because people will just use the next best option in line.  Which ties into the next point quite nicely.  

10 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Equinox can already do this...

You've been saying "Equinoxequinoxequinox" the whole time and you didn't know that? Cast rest, switch, Maim, kill. Death.

What you're ignoring, is that this is a huge hassle for Equinox, that costs ridiculously large amounts of energy and time to use effectively.  It disrupts mobility, cc, nuking, tank abilities, and evasive maneuvers to use on a proper nuking build (due to lengthy cast and activation times), the only kind that could take full advantage of this strategy.  She'd be shot dead from a distance before even having a chance to use the finisher.  It's just too disruptive and inefficient to even be considered, to begin with.  I'm aware that Equinox can do it, but as a long-time Equinox main, I'm also well aware that it's nowhere near practical enough to be considered. 
With Ember, it'd just be pressing 2 with 4 active for an easy nuke, and no hassle.  I rest my case, on this specific point.  

 

The reason I say 'Equinoxequinoxequinox' is because up until Ember's nerf, Equinox and Ember were considered to be relatively on par with each other in terms of meta utility.  Either Warframe had an advantage and disadvantage in comparison to the other one in terms of that particular usage, so they were both viable enough to be picked.  

Now that Ember has had her range nerfed for a pathetic damage increase, she pales in comparison to Equinox.  Now that Ember's former biggest advantage over Equinox of not having to constantly decast/recast abilities has been removed from the equation, she isn't even viable, or even usable, in comparison.  

When I see Ember(s) in my squad and I'm playing Equinox, I make it my business to do so much damage that the Ember(s) can't even do 10% of the total damage of the mission.  And it's not difficult to do, at all.  Before the nerf, though, Ember would've been able to have a chance at competing.  

Which is why the golden standard of bringing Ember back to her former capability (and maybe even usage), is making her able to compete with Equinox in terms of capability.  Which is why I'm saying 'Equinoxequinoxequinox'.  

10 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

What?

50% of enemy total health or shields go to the damage counter while 50% go to range, like I said.

Again, please elaborate on what you mean by this. 

Let's say you kill a level 50 Boiler that has 30k health.  50% of that goes to range.  So, Ember's ult decast would have 15,015 meters of range now?

Do explain, please.  Because if how you say it will be is anything along these lines, then the ability is stupid amounts of broken, capable of nuking the entire Plains in about 20 seconds of buildup.  

 

 

I don't know how I missed this the first time, but your kit seems to be turning Ember into a best-of-both-worlds version of Equinox, with some armour stripping borrowed from Frost.  Accelerant becoming Rest (and adding an 8x stealth damage multiplier that doesn't get removed by doing over 50% of an enemy's health in damage without killing it), Fire Blast becoming a universal armour strip (similar to Frost's Avalanche's armour stripping potential), and Ember's ult becoming Maim (with the potential for extra range and massively increased damage from the 2 previous abilities).  

Yeah, that's too much nuking for any one Warframe.  I'm just gonna nope my way out here.  Equinox having 2/3 of those abilities is counterbalanced by the fact that they can't be used effectively in tandem.  Yeah, umm...... nope.  

[BigPapiPimp]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:55 PM, shootaman777 said:

You gave her the best of all worlds - tanking capabilities, debuffs, cc, support capabilities,

Let me pick your brain/harass you with my ideas, since I hold a similar sentiment.

Someone said before that her 1 and 3 could merge, her current 3’s effect taking place at her fireballs point of impact. I really like that idea.

what if her 3 was changed to be a low range radius AOE heat damage that followed her, so she can aggressively fear hostiles with consistently her firefight augment.

does any of that sound palatable?

Edited March 15, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

39 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Yes, half of the first abilities in the game are gutter trash.  

Glad we agree on something, however the proposed passive I gave to Ember gives her potential wide range CC with forced knockdown and fire (panic) procs, along with increased damage. More than "just above gutter trash" to me.

41 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

The reason why it would kill Excal's usage as a blinder, is because Ember would be a blinder with a more useful kit in just about any situation since she would have more debuff capabilities, especially considering her proposed armour stripping capabilities and the ranged damage dropoff of Exalted Blade waves.  

I merely gave Ember the ability to equally blind all enemies for five seconds, not affected by duration, as opposed to one to five based on enemy type which was extremely unreliable. Also, that probably means Excalibur should have something done about his third, no? Besides, the massive damage of Exatled Blade makes up for the damage drop-off.

46 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Mend & Maim has a stagger upon entry of its range, to every affected enemy.  There's no extra energy cost, no extra casting requirement, etc.  If I recall properly, only your proposed addition to Accelerant included a blind, which is a separate cast and a hassle in comparison.

To counter this, Ember has a massive blind when her Ancient Inferno ends.

49 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

You do 100-150 damage to yourself over 12 seconds.  If that's what you consider to be 'killing yourself', then we're playing a different game.  Especially when it doesn't even get past Ember's shields.  Just because you refuse to make it work; to use an easy-to-use weapon, with an easily acquired build, that offers next to no disadvantage other than taking up a primary weapon slot (which would've been taken up by something less useful, anyways), does not mean that the passive is bad.  It means that you're just intentionally choosing to put yourself at a disadvantage by not using it properly.  Try it before you knock it.  

Nope, you're definitely killing yourself.

Spoiler

I used your build, are you sure?

And jeez, a weapon should not be required to make use of a passive, that's eliminating the power of choice, which is what the game is about. Other Frames get away with this because it's a weapon type and not a specific one. Not to mention it's clunky to switch weapons, shoot it, deal a ton of damage to yourself, and then switch back to your more useful weapon, and in the midst of combat? No way. On top of this, you can't even get the weapon until you get to Ceres and get the required mastery. So how am I purposely weakening myself? I've tried it, I screwed myself, I hated it.

54 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

The endless direct damage scaling in Equinox's Maim & Mend, and Blood Rush + Drifting Contact/Body Count/Power Spike melee builds beg to differ.  

If I had any idea what you're talking about, then I'd understand, however, I see melee which includes status which includes some way to work around armor, so my point still stands.

56 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Because Ember's 4th ability was the only reason she was ever so widely used, because it was one of the most powerful abilities in the speedrun meta that DE created.  Get rid of that utility, and she drops off the face of the galaxy because people will just use the next best option in line.  Which ties into the next point quite nicely.  

Which gets rid of it! She can be used for more! That's what this post is! Mesa and Saryn can go faster anyways!

58 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

What you're ignoring, is that this is a huge hassle for Equinox, that costs ridiculously large amounts of energy and time to use effectively.  It disrupts mobility, cc, nuking, tank abilities, and evasive maneuvers to use on a proper nuking build (due to lengthy cast and activation times), the only kind that could take full advantage of this strategy.  She'd be shot dead from a distance before even having a chance to use the finisher.  It's just too disruptive and inefficient to even be considered, to begin with.  I'm aware that Equinox can do it, but as a long-time Equinox main, I'm also well aware that it's nowhere near practical enough to be considered. 
With Ember, it'd just be pressing 2 with 4 active for an easy nuke, and no hassle.  I rest my case, on this specific point.  

Use Natural Talent and Efficiency mods. Those work easy. I have fiddled around with the build. And you're really over-exaggerating. It costs about 50 energy to set up for this. And the only part that disrupts anything is Mend & Maim for about .5 seconds. And once again, it's just a 5 second stun, jeez.

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

The reason I say 'Equinoxequinoxequinox' is because up until Ember's nerf, Equinox and Ember were considered to be relatively on par with each other in terms of meta utility.

Ember for low level speed runs and Equinox for... actually being useful? Yeah, that's not equal.

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

Let's say you kill a level 50 Boiler that has 30k health.  50% of that goes to range.  So, Ember's ult decast would have 15,015 meters of range now?

You weren't paying attention, I did display the calculations, not calling you out or anything, just you missed it. Here they are.

On 3/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

 

• every 500 points is 100 extra points of damage, every 2000 points is 1 extra meter
• accumulates 50% of enemy health and/or shields for additional damage, and 50% for extra range

So you're only getting 3000 additional points of damage and a few extra meters (about 7).

1 hour ago, shootaman777 said:

I don't know how I missed this the first time, but your kit seems to be turning Ember into a best-of-both-worlds version of Equinox, with some armour stripping borrowed from Frost.  Accelerant becoming Rest (and adding an 8x stealth damage multiplier that doesn't get removed by doing over 50% of an enemy's health in damage without killing it), Fire Blast becoming a universal armour strip (similar to Frost's Avalanche's armour stripping potential), and Ember's ult becoming Maim (with the potential for extra range and massively increased damage from the 2 previous abilities).  

You're seriously poking through the holes here, you fail to mention how most Warframes are similar to others in some way.

[Threa]

I absolutely love all of your ideas, I can't add much to the discussion but wanted to show my support. Well done! 

[BigPapiPimp]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

You're seriously poking through the holes here, you fail to mention how most Warframes are similar to others in some way.

 I agree that it’s annoying when people become a little constipated when it comes to comparing frames, that said I don’t really want to see ember shred armor.

i want to see her through big fireballs and big damage, getting even higher when enemy armor is removed by some other method or when she propane’s all over the grineer.

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

Let me pick your brain/harass you with my ideas, since I hold a similar sentiment.

Someone said before that her 1 and 3 could merge, her current 3’s effect taking place at her fireballs point of impact. I really like that idea.

what if her 3 was changed to be a low range radius AOE heat damage that followed her, so she can aggressively fear hostiles with consistently her firefight augment.

does any of that sound palatable?

That sounds like WoF,,, That's literally what it does lolz

[BigPapiPimp]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

That sounds like WoF,,, That's literally what it does lolz

It ain’t consistent though, it’s not a real AOE like all the firequake people are crying about getting a 75% area nerf.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, BigPapiPimp said:

It ain’t consistent though, it’s not a real AOE like all the firequake people are crying about getting a 75% area nerf.

You don't seem to have used max range/firequake build... Which is still as effective as old firequake + power build. Allow me to enlighten you:

250 range will take WoF slightly past the base range. That's really all you need tho, if you're able to use fireball efficiently & effectively. It honestly still works the same, but the energy drain is heavier than before. So in missions that you'll get oneshot, you should trade vitality with overxtended, and put a streamline instead of vitality. 

This build is the reason why fireblast is redundant as a CC, and accelerant isn't as effective of a long-term CC (in comparison to firequake). It's also why IDC for the heat-damage bonus that fireblast grants. Because this build still requires ember to remain mobile (can't use an immobile buff much, if i need to move constantly). 

Fireball is still useful, because it will reach distant targets. It makes for a good delay, by preventing enemies from shooting you before you reach them. Once you do reach them, firequake takes over the CC. Then If in any stragglers are standing by some miracle (or not panicking) you should prioritize shooting that enemy first. Headshots also make for the *best* single-target CC.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[shootaman777]

7 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

To counter this, Ember has a massive blind when her Ancient Inferno ends.

By then, the effect of not having that during her 4th ability being active, already makes it worse.  

7 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I used your build, are you sure?

And jeez, a weapon should not be required to make use of a passive, that's eliminating the power of choice, which is what the game is about. Other Frames get away with this because it's a weapon type and not a specific one. Not to mention it's clunky to switch weapons, shoot it, deal a ton of damage to yourself, and then switch back to your more useful weapon, and in the midst of combat? No way. On top of this, you can't even get the weapon until you get to Ceres and get the required mastery. So how am I purposely weakening myself? I've tried it, I screwed myself, I hated it.

Here's what it looks like to use: 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1331463830

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1331464379

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1331464631

See that negligible self-damage, and gain of 120 energy over 12 seconds?  Look at my shields - it works.  You only screwed yourself because you weren't doing it properly.  

My build didn't have a Wildfire on it.  That's not my build.  

This is my build, as I've already stated: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1331461590

It takes 3 days to get to Ceres from starting, and 2 weeks of play (while knowing what you're doing) to hit the mastery rank for the Javlok.  On top of that, Ember herself is sourced from Saturn's boss, Sargas Ruk, who is farther along the star chart.  By the time a player can obtain Ember, they can generally obtain the Javlok.  

Also, are you using the primary fire (fire slug) or alt fire (spear throw)?  Use the primary fire (fire slug).  If you're wondering why Catalyser Link is on that build, it's because going into Operator mode counts as an ability use,  which triggers Catalyser Link.  This can be used for an energy-free status chance boost.  

If weapon swapping appears clunky, then take Hush off the build and add Twitch.  Plus, you don't need to switch weapon to use your melee weapon.  Plus, you wouldn't want to set yourself on fire in combat anyways.  Plus, if you're in combat as Ember, you likely have World on Fire activated anyways and wouldn't be able to regenerate energy.  

What you're also ignoring, is the utility of the Javlok's status cannon build as a fire proc dispenser on primary fire, and a decent nuke coupled with cc and more fire procs on alt fire.  It's essentially Ember's first ability without the energy cost.  

You're also not limited in choice to just one weapon.  The Castanas, Sancti Castanas, and Talons also work for self-status.  The Javlok just happens to be the most efficient weapon for fire-based self-status.  

A weapon shouldn't be required to make use of a passive?  Tell that to Ash*, Banshee, Excalibur, Hydroid, Mesa, Nekros*, Saryn*, and Wukong*.  A * denotes a passive partially dependent on chosen weapon, and a lack of star denotes a passive entirely dependent on chosen weapon.  Additionally, even if it only forces the player to use a category of weapons, each category has a defined 'superior' weapon, which is the only one worth choosing when considering that others are worse.  It's the same with Ember and the Javlok, compared to Javlok alternatives.  

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

If I had any idea what you're talking about, then I'd understand, however, I see melee which includes status which includes some way to work around armor, so my point still stands.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Rush/Crit_Calculation

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit

On the Critical Hit page, refer to the 'Orange & Red Crits' category.  Specifically, the 'Crit Levels Table' dropdown list and subsequent information.  

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Which gets rid of it! She can be used for more! That's what this post is! Mesa and Saryn can go faster anyways!

Not with your proposed rework, she can't.  And Mesa and Saryn don't go faster.  If you believe that, then you're very out of touch with the meta and what's viable.  Ever since Saryn's prime-release nerf, she's been out of the picture.  And Mesa is limited by LoS and aiming, even with Peacemaker.  Ember and Equinox don't share those same limitations, which is why they were the meta.  

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Use Natural Talent and Efficiency mods. Those work easy. I have fiddled around with the build. And you're really over-exaggerating. It costs about 50 energy to set up for this. And the only part that disrupts anything is Mend & Maim for about .5 seconds. And once again, it's just a 5 second stun, jeez.

I've experimented with every combination of these mods, and in order to be the most effective, there is no place in the build for Natural Talent, nor amazing efficiency.  Strength and Range are more mandatory, and enough duration to use Equinox's abilities.  Plus, you already have to build for at least mediocre efficiency, or be crushed by the continued energy costs of Equinox's 4th.  There's too much to build for, where there's no space to add the utility you claim to be 'easy' to add. 

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Ember for low level speed runs and Equinox for... actually being useful? Yeah, that's not equal.

Obviously, you were not well-acquainted with the meta.  I never said equal, I said they were both viable and competitive with one another.  Equinox and Ember were not separated by a relationship or superiority/inferiority, but by where and how their abilities shined.  Ember could continuously lock an area down while nuking it with AoE and single target attacks, but her AoE didn't do the largest amount of damage.  Equinox's cc was only temporary, and had to be accompanied by a rush to build up Maim's damage before the cc wore off and Equinox would get slaughtered, or an early decast to add the decast stagger to provide Equinox with more room to do damage and survive, or switch to night forme in the toughest of situations.  

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

You weren't paying attention, I did display the calculations, not calling you out or anything, just you missed it. Here they are.

I see 'edited 7 hours ago' in the OP, so there's no way for me to know it for sure one way or the other.  

8 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

You're seriously poking through the holes here, you fail to mention how most Warframes are similar to others in some way.

You're seriously poking through holes here, you fail to mention how this is in any way relevant to what I was saying, and you conveniently ignored the following paragraph.  

[Bratty_Child]

Make her 1 become Fire Ball Barrage, with the buff you suggested.

3-9 fireballs will spawn during cast and follow the primary fireball.

[BigPapiPimp]

20 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

You don't seem to have used max range/firequake build... Which is still as effective as old firequake + power build. Allow me to enlighten you:

250 range will take WoF slightly past the base range. That's really all you need tho, if you're able to use fireball efficiently & effectively. It honestly still works the same, but the energy drain is heavier than before. So in missions that you'll get oneshot, you should trade vitality with overxtended, and put a streamline instead of vitality. 

This build is the reason why fireblast is redundant as a CC, and accelerant isn't as effective of a long-term CC (in comparison to firequake). It's also why IDC for the heat-damage bonus that fireblast grants. Because this build still requires ember to remain mobile (can't use an immobile buff much, if i need to move constantly). 

Fireball is still useful, because it will reach distant targets. It makes for a good delay, by preventing enemies from shooting you before you reach them. Once you do reach them, firequake takes over the CC. Then If in any stragglers are standing by some miracle (or not panicking) you should prioritize shooting that enemy first. Headshots also make for the *best* single-target CC.

It won’t let you mosh, which is my point.

I’m just saying firequake works as well as it used to. Just that it never let you dive into crowds: it still doesn’t. The amount of fireballs and targeting time isn’t even close to effective enough to let you do that. Firequake with high range just lets you control a hand full of enemies And works best if you have a handful of meters between you two.

nice build btw, though may I ask for less power strenght, more efficiency, and some natural talent. I enjoy only the purest firequake builds :p.

Edited March 16, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[Maka.Bones]

8 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

It won’t let you mosh, which is my point.

What's mosh, gud sir?

8 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I’m just saying firequake works as well as it used to. Just that it never let you dive into crowds, which it still doesn’t. The amount of fireballs and targeting time isn’t even close to effective enough to let you do that. Firequake with high range just lets you control a hand full of enemies And works best if you have a handful of meters between you two.

Yeah, accelerant definitely shines in those intervals before reaching enemies, and then crowd-bombing. It helps to stun them with accel (which also primes them for damage) and  then bullet jump ember'--literally--hawt booty over there.

8 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

nice build btw, though may I ask for less power strenght, more efficiency, and some natural talent. I enjoy only the purest firequake builds :p.

Ty ty! I just didn't want to have negative power str. Also lel @ "I enjoy only the purest of firequake builds" xD 10/10 that should be a catchphrase lol. 

[BigPapiPimp]

10 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

What's mosh, gud sir?

But with ember my hopes would be for more panic and fire.

Edited March 16, 2018 by BigPapiPimp