The starting frames need to change

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

Excal, Rhino, Trinity always felt like the three that should be starters to me, but I'm kinda neutral on it needing to be changed.

I'd personally add a fourth too since you can only pick one ultimately.

[KochDerFrettchen]

12 hours ago, hellodownthere said:

2. Mag - might be a bit too hard for players as for her to shine she needs mods that would otherwise take the new player potentially months the get

I don't get this theme throughout the thread, really.  I started as Mag (twice! I played way back years ago but lost that account, and came back almost a year ago now.) and both times progressed logically as I levelled.  1 = easy mode, infinite ragdolling of a lot of enemies as long as I have energy. 2 = Big Boy Button, turns my sad sad braton mk-1 into XxB0ss5lay3rXx for a few seconds.  3 = Defenses-B-Gone, though I did shelve the ability for a while until the defenses of enemies were a little more relevant. 4 = ...Well, I thought it was amazing for a little while when a friend brought out their trinity and enabled me to spam Crush, but outside of that I always thought it was slow, clunky and unnecessary.

The shards are weird, but I still never actually use them for a damned thing.  Her 3 'range' scaling off duration is weird, but new players tend to realize that it didn't get bigger when they put on stretch anyways so...  I just really don't understand this at all, what's so complex about Mag over any other frame?  Do we have to compare her to Rhino (read: Potato-brain ez mode) to make her look complicated?

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

I don't get this theme throughout the thread, really.  I started as Mag (twice! I played way back years ago but lost that account, and came back almost a year ago now.) and both times progressed logically as I levelled.  1 = easy mode, infinite ragdolling of a lot of enemies as long as I have energy. 2 = Big Boy Button, turns my sad sad braton mk-1 into XxB0ss5lay3rXx for a few seconds.  3 = Defenses-B-Gone, though I did shelve the ability for a while until the defenses of enemies were a little more relevant. 4 = ...Well, I thought it was amazing for a little while when a friend brought out their trinity and enabled me to spam Crush, but outside of that I always thought it was slow, clunky and unnecessary.

The shards are weird, but I still never actually use them for a damned thing.  Her 3 'range' scaling off duration is weird, but new players tend to realize that it didn't get bigger when they put on stretch anyways so...  I just really don't understand this at all, what's so complex about Mag over any other frame?  Do we have to compare her to Rhino (read: Potato-brain ez mode) to make her look complicated?

I don't know how long since you played Mag, but Crush received a buff recently - speed increase and inherent overshields for anyone within range of the ability. And amount if overshields is based on how many enemies are hit and overshields are applied in a 3 stage fashion.

So I really don't see how Mag is bad considering she can buff her other teammates now.

[KochDerFrettchen]

1 hour ago, MagPrime said:

I don't know how long since you played Mag, but Crush received a buff recently - speed increase and inherent overshields for anyone within range of the ability. And amount if overshields is based on how many enemies are hit and overshields are applied in a 3 stage fashion.

So I really don't see how Mag is bad considering she can buff her other teammates now.

Aye, I've still been playing her.  Mag P is my most played, and I think standard mag still sits somewhere in my top 5.  It's better, but I still don't use Crush.  Negative range build usually :p

[(XBOX)THANOTOS OMEGA]

TBH they should probably make 3 really generic Kits and let players create a custom starter that's weaker and blander than the other frames in story, since another issue with the starters is using them in any kind of lore, i am willing to bet a crap ton of Loki Starters/mains were kinda mad about the start of the second dream for example,

[MagPrime]

2 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

Aye, I've still been playing her.  Mag P is my most played, and I think standard mag still sits somewhere in my top 5.  It's better, but I still don't use Crush.  Negative range build usually :p

Fair.  I only recently started using it seriously in more of my builds since the update. 

But, still, inherent overshields is an amazing buff for a starter ability.

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, (XB1)THANOTOS OMEGA said:

i am willing to bet a crap ton of Loki Starters/mains were kinda mad about the start of the second dream for example,

That was the best part of the cutscene IMO.  Damn good entertainment that was. 

 

[BL4CKN0ISE]

Yeah, I kinda agree with this. Everybody I know who started with Excalibur is still playing. All my friends who started with Mag or Volt ended up leaving pretty quickly. People who defend Mag probably forgot what it's like when you first started the game. Your access to mods and weapons plays a big role too. Excalibur has mobility, high DPS, and easy to understand utility. Now I would much rather use Mag over Excalibur, but I didn't understand her at first. Excalibur was my first frame and Mag was my second frame.  

No reason to debate about how strong different frames are. Some are just better for new players IMO. Another way to look at it is like this... Excalibur is the frame you just instantly understand how to play and he's probably fun for most players. Mag is the frame you learn how to play by doing research and watching videos and she will only appeal to a small percentage of the players even after they understand her. 

DE should probably just simplify and make it DPS, Tank, Healer. Keep Excalibur, add Rhino and Trinity. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[KittySkin]

8 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Yeah, I kinda agree with this. Everybody I know who started with Excalibur is still playing. All my friends who started with Mag or Volt ended up leaving pretty quickly. People who defend Mag probably forgot what it's like when you first started the game. Your access to mods and weapons plays a big role too. Excalibur has mobility, high DPS, and easy to understand utility. Now I would much rather use Mag over Excalibur, but I didn't understand her at first. Excalibur was my first frame and Mag was my second frame.  

No reason to debate about how strong different frames are. Some are just better for new players IMO. Another way to look at it is like this... Excalibur is the frame you just instantly understand how to play and he's probably fun for most players. Mag is the frame you learn how to play by doing research and watching videos and she will only appeal to a small percentage of the players even after they understand her. 

DE should probably just simplify and make it DPS, Tank, Healer. Keep Excalibur, add Rhino and Trinity. 

Oberon instead of Rhino. Rhino literally destroys new players experience, and I know it first handed.
My starter was Excal, he looked so cool so I ended up using him till I gor Rhino.
I never understood A LOT of game stuff till I started to actually play another frames since Rhino's Iron Skin completly negated me from this learning, gas clouds from enemies, disruptos destroying your shields, electric traps that slowdown you, laser barriers CC, grineer barriers energy depletion, stomping units CC; etc
Rhino its an excelent frame, so far one of the most solid and all rounded ones, but for a new player it literally destroys his learning curve because how much factos Iron Skin allows you to not take care about, on this apartment of tanks Obern would do a better job allowing you to tank AND learning about this stuff too.

[MagPrime]

22 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Yeah, I kinda agree with this. Everybody I know who started with Excalibur is still playing. All my friends who started with Mag or Volt ended up leaving pretty quickly. People who defend Mag probably forgot what it's like when you first started the game. Your access to mods and weapons plays a big role too. Excalibur has mobility, high DPS, and easy to understand utility. Now I would much rather use Mag over Excalibur, but I didn't understand her at first. Excalibur was my first frame and Mag was my second frame.  

No reason to debate about how strong different frames are. Some are just better for new players IMO. Another way to look at it is like this... Excalibur is the frame you just instantly understand how to play and he's probably fun for most players. Mag is the frame you learn how to play by doing research and watching videos and she will only appeal to a small percentage of the players even after they understand her. 

DE should probably just simplify and make it DPS, Tank, Healer. Keep Excalibur, add Rhino and Trinity. 

I have to disagree that I'm defending Mag as a starter simply because I've forgotten whata it's like as a new player.

I've brought a total of 7 people to this game, 5 still play, 3 have chosen Mag and still play.  The ones that left are the ones who chose Excal and found the game too easy and not enough of a story to keep their attention. 

Rhino has already been nixed by DE themselves btw and Trinity is far more complex than Mag, as far as anew player is concerned.  

The biggest issue with your suggestion is that the starting frames HAVE to have a first abikity that does inherent damage.  

Since Mag's rework, she fills a buff role due to Crush granting overshields, which is fairly useful considering how quickly players die.  Shields recharge, health doesn't, and you can't get "overhealth" so your healer is constantly recasting health restoration and not contributing to the fight.  While with crush, it simultaneously grants over shields and does damage.

Edited March 9, 2018 by MagPrime

[BL4CKN0ISE]

5 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I have to disagree that I'm defending Mag as a starter simply because I've forgotten whata it's like as a new player.

I've brought a total of 7 people to this game, 5 still play, 3 have chosen Mag and still play.  The ones that left are the ones who chose Excal and found the game too easy and not enough of a story to keep their attention. 

Rhino has already been nixed by DE themselves btw and Trinity is far more complex than Mag, as far as anew player is concerned.  

The biggest issue with your suggestion is that the starting frames HAVE to have a first abikity that does inherent damage.  

Since Mag's rework, she fills a buff role due to Crush granting overshields, which is fairly useful considering how quickly players die.  Shields recharge, health doesn't, and you can't get "overhealth" so your healer is constantly recasting health restoration and not contributing to the fight.  While with crush, it simultaneously grants over shields and does damage.

IDK about players who would quit because Excalibur makes it too easy. Sounds like they picked the wrong game. Me and my friends got into it because we play a lot of multiplayer games together and Waframe was a free one that looked fun. A new player with Excalibur will probably feel like they are contributing more than a person who chooses Mag with no understanding of how to use her. That's the importance of damage. It's an obvious contribution that makes you feel like you brought something valuable to the squad. It's easy to understand. That being said, CC and/or Healing are also obvious contributions. I guess you can learn Mag early on and it will be a different experience for you, but we all know how people talk about Mag.

Shields recharge, so who's thinking about overshields as valuable that early on when content is so easy? I still don't care about overshields. Anyways, how is Trinity more complex than Mag? PoE is why most of my friends started using Trinity and some of us just learned her a few hours before we had to use her for capturing Eidolons. Trinity gives her team energy and health. You can tell that to any player and they will understand. That's how starter frames should be IMO. 

If you honestly think one of the most controversial frames is a good choice as a starter frame, fair enough. People make videos to prove how strong she is, because most players think the opposite. Probably still nice to have an option like her for people who want a frame like that, but it's just a gamble. If you don't understand her instantly or don't take the time to learn her, it could be a real drag getting through the star chart with her.

[MagPrime]

6 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

IDK about players who would quit because Excalibur makes it too easy. Sounds like they picked the wrong game. Me and my friends got into it because we play a lot of multiplayer games together and Waframe was a free one that looked fun. A new player with Excalibur will probably feel like they are contributing more than a person who chooses Mag with no understanding of how to use her. That's the importance of damage. It's an obvious contribution that makes you feel like you brought something valuable to the squad. It's easy to understand. That being said, CC and/or Healing are also obvious contributions. I guess you can learn Mag early on and it will be a different experience for you, but we all know how people talk about Mag.

Shields recharge, so who's thinking about overshields as valuable that early on when content is so easy? I still don't care about overshields. Anyways, how is Trinity more complex than Mag? PoE is why most of my friends started using Trinity and some of us just learned her a few hours before we had to use her for capturing Eidolons. Trinity gives her team energy and health. You can tell that to any player and they will understand. That's how starter frames should be IMO. 

If you honestly think one of the most controversial frames is a good choice as a starter frame, fair enough. People make videos to prove how strong she is, because most players think the opposite. Probably still nice to have an option like her for people who want a frame like that, but it's just a gamble. If you don't understand her instantly or don't take the time to learn her, it could be a real drag getting through the star chart with her.

How is that different from any other game though?

[(PSN)SirLongJonBremne]

On 06/03/2018 at 12:19 PM, Gree26 said:

in my opinion, we have plenty of frames that make a good replacement for bolt and mag. 2 very powerful but more advanced frames. We have frames like Ivara and rhino. Both powerful without needing a good mod setup and already are very accessible to most players. I just think that a new players first experience should not be confusion. 

 

Those are just what came to mind. I'm sure there are better options but the current frames volt and mag are just not a good frame to start with. (Obviously Excalibur is a perfect starting frame)

I disagree with ivara as she is pretty useless for a starting player who doesn't understand the movement mechanics and build techniques. 

But I agree with the premise, they should do a glass cannon, a tank, and a healer. Make it obvious in their discriptions as to what they are. So I'd say rhino, trin, and excal

[Ragnarok160]

On 3/7/2018 at 6:55 PM, MagPrime said:

Only if they don't read or think.

New players have enough to deal with already 

[BrazilianJoe]

I stand by my opinion that they should have more than 3 frames. 

5 to10 frames would be cool to have. 

In my order of preference to add to the roster of starters: 

Rhino (bruiser tank juggernaut)

Ash (closest thing to a ninja)

Oberon (Support healer CC)

Ember (fire elemental)

Frost (ice elemental)

Saryn (toxin elemental, makes all 4 base elements in the starters).

 

Beyond that, there may be a few frames which are also early designs, but lack a primary that give significant damage.

OR they have a prime that gives significant damage, but are behind a Quest, so they would be better kept under wraps. 

 

[MagPrime]

3 hours ago, Ragnarok160 said:

New players have enough to deal with already 

Yeah, we wouldn't want players to read or think,  that's just asking too much. 

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

2 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Yeah, we wouldn't want players to read or think,  that's just asking too much. 

Gotta love that passive-agressive tone.

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Mythical Warden said:

Gotta love that passive-agressive tone.

It's more sarcasm then anything else, but you do you boo.

[KochDerFrettchen]

33 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

It's more sarcasm then anything else, but you do you boo.

Haven't you learned?  It would be much better if every game had a button, mode or starting character that turned the learning curve into a flatline with a hardspike at the end. :^)

[Ragnarok160]

2 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Yeah, we wouldn't want players to read or think,  that's just asking too much. 

U know how hard reading is

[(PSN)Aerik93]

I also started with Mag, even loved her so much that I got Mag Prime, no less as the very first Prime I ever got.

I tried out Excalibur when I purchased him for Platinum and I honestly have to say, I didn’t like how he played. He felt too cumbersome, slow, and restrictive with all of his abilities and the Exalted Blade was kind of underwhelming. He doesn’t hold a candle to Mesa either.

I got Volt from Teshin for standing and he was fun and all to use but I got bored of him pretty quick. It was nice to be able to increase my movement speed though - I cannot stand being slowed down, and Cold procs are hell for me.

Though I didn’t use Mag Prime for a long time - a couple months, but it was nice to go back to her for old times’ sake, y’know - especially with Mesa being my favourite Warframe too, I came back to her after the most recent update and I’ve started using her a lot more.

 

Mag is still a great starter Warframe. Pretty much all of her abilities are AoE and Polarise and Crush can restore shields. Pull even gives a drop multiplier, increasing the chances for enemies to drop loot. 

Or at least I think it does - with mods my ‘Drop Multiplier’ says 0.33 but idk if that’s a decrease or not.

 

All three of the Starter Warframes however are just fine as they are. My dislike of Excalibur and short-term enjoyment of Volt are just personal opinions.

If anything, maybe rather than removing or switching starter frames, perhaps DE could give new players a fourth option.

 

Besides which, I have to ask; OP, why do you want the starter frames to be changed anyway? Are you going to start a new game, go to another platform? Or do you want this for the newer players, because I don’t see why this change would affect you in particular.

In advance, sorry if my question was already answered - I haven’t gone through every page.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Aerik93 said:

Or at least I think it does - with mods my ‘Drop Multiplier’ says 0.33 but idk if that’s a decrease or not.

Increased chance of energy orbs for enemies killed by pull.

[sixmille]

Well loki was a better starter frame than volt that's for sure, I don't know why they changed that, but honestly Mag is a perfect introduction to caster type warframes. It's simple, straightforward, but not so good that you don't want to use anything else ever, which is always the risk with rhino. Rhino is a very powerful warframe, but it's also too fool-proof. You can #*!% up way too much and Rhino will always forgive. The problem with Rhino is that it's only good at surviving, other abilities are meh and dramatically outclassed by other warframes, and new players need to learn things like damage avoidance and CC instead of facetanking everything. Ultimately, Rhino is a selfish frame that is very easy to play, and that's not great in a team game.

I've seen way too many players playing CC frames like Nyx and not even using the good spells once, so if you give them Rhino, they will never get out of it, because it's really easy to give in to comfort and just facetank instead of dodging and using all your kit... I know I've been lazy and guilty of this myself lately. But I'm not a new player and I have experienced 80% of the warframes of this game already so the danger is behind me. I know for a fact that in a team, Nyx is 10 times more useful than Rhino. New players don't. New players need to try a lot of things too. Don't give them something that makes most of the content so trivial that they don't learn a thing.

Edited March 10, 2018 by sixmille

[xxfiurionxx]

Only one i would problaly change would problaly be mag.

People play the game and many times dont see her awsome potential... Imagine a noob just getting into the game lol

Plus she is very squishy :p

As for volt... My starter frame... Best one for me lol

Damage? Check. Speed? Check. Suport shields and extra dmg? Check. CC and damage? Check.

I know Loki has the master race meme but volt as a starter frame is just amazing :)

Other then that, ivara as a starter frame?? What the hell lol ivara is everything besides "noob" friendly. 

If i had to pick one for mag i would problaly go with Oberon. Looks cool, has some damage, self heal! / mini buff. Not as squishy and decent to solo 

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:24 PM, MagPrime said:

It's more sarcasm then anything else, but you do you boo.

Being sarcastic can tie along with being passive-aggressive.