(Finalized) Yet another idea for ember--simple ideas, using existing assets; allows ember to scale w/o OP-ness

[xarvh]

2 hours ago, xarvh said:

Yes, I'm pretty sure. =P

@Maka.Bones 
To qualify better my comment: I do like your proposal and I am trying to give suggestions that IMHO could help your proposal being accepted.
It is not how I personally, subjectively see Ember, so if it was up to me I'd make an entirely new frame with the abilities you propose.
But the abilities are good.

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:21 PM, BigPapiPimp said:

It’s just another little thing on top, no big deal, personally I’d care I like running ember buffs (but I think I’m the only one who would voice it, or who might care at all).

 

On 3/9/2018 at 5:23 PM, BigPapiPimp said:

Yeah I agree, it’s why I want to see DE really push embers numbers on these kinds of things.

These two reasons are why I first suggested to have fireblast give DR buff, while standing in it. It would also be great, if the damage buff to the weapons was more significant. As it is, it doesn't really do much when compared to volt/rhino/mirage/chroma.... It's not even better than a dualstat, or elemental mod. 

Personally, i'd see more benefit from increased movement/cc. But I also get/respect that other people like the current boon to weapon damage, so I did add a suggestion that might help those people. 

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/10/2018 at 1:37 AM, xarvh said:

@Maka.Bones 
To qualify better my comment: I do like your proposal and I am trying to give suggestions that IMHO could help your proposal being accepted.
It is not how I personally, subjectively see Ember, so if it was up to me I'd make an entirely new frame with the abilities you propose.
But the abilities are good.

The abilities are still *mostly* the same. 

The passive is directly related to heat/temperature, which makes sense for Ember

Fireball, is still fireball... It would just function better (one suggestion improves the damage, while the passive + augment improves the overall use, as well as it optimizes CC)

Accelerant is still accelerant, it would just work better for CC

Fireblast could remain as fireblast, with added DR. Otherwise heatdrive is the only new ability I suggested. 

WoF is still WoF, but would be placed (to balance out that accelerant would become an aura which follows you)

 

They're not new abilities.... So how would this be a new frame? lol I also added suggestions for this to be modular... so they could only take parts out of this, instead of using the entire thing. 

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/8/2018 at 6:17 PM, BigPapiPimp said:

Is everyone married to the idea of making her tangier though? What about enemies who are already on fire can have their heat dot increase based on their max health and the time they stay inside the circle? Or maybe fire damage dealt to enemies inside the circle ignore shields and armor?

btw, do you really think that fireblast's circle is big enough for that to work? I mean.... If I COULD make enemies stay in it, then yes I could see benefit in that.  But it would take longer to bullet jump into enemies, cast it on that group of enemies (assuming they stay packed neatly, in a 5m circle), run away, and THEN shoot em.... than shooting them in the first place. 

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

btw, do you really think that fireblast's circle is big enough for that to work? I mean.... If I COULD make enemies stay in it, then yes I could see benefit in that.  But it would take longer to bullet jump into enemies, cast it on that group of enemies (assuming they stay packed neatly, in a 5m circle), run away, and THEN shoot em.... than shooting them in the first place. 

It would be more of a fighting retreat but I get why you dislike it. I normally bounce from choke to choke with frames, nuking entrances and exits.

scorched earth? lol

[Maka.Bones]

8 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

It would be more of a fighting retreat but I get why you dislike it. I normally bounce from choke to choke with frames, nuking entrances and exits.

scorched earth? lol

No, I mean I actually really like the idea... just maybe not in an area that small lol. If we could drop WoF, and have it give us that bonus that you suggested (even if the current damage was reduced) then yeah it would be sweet....

 

Or if it was a scorched earth kind of thing too. But what did you have in mind for your scorched earth? (like how big? would it be a placed thing, or can we place it where we aim--like with fireball? how do you envision the ability/augment?)

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[BigPapiPimp]

23 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

No, I mean I actually really like the idea... just maybe not in an area that small lol. If we could drop WoF, and have it give us that bonus that you suggested (even if the current damage was reduced) then yeah it would be sweet....

 

Or if it was a scorched earth kind of thing too. But what did you have in mind for your scorched earth? (like how big? would it be a placed thing, or can we place it where we aim--like with fireball? how do you envision the ability/augment?)

Was just a descriptive ward for how I drop her fireblasts (normally after an accelerant cast). 

Haven’t given it any thought, as far as a new ability or mod for it.

[xarvh]

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

The abilities are still *mostly* the same. 

The passive is directly related to heat/temperature, which makes sense for Ember

Fireball, is still fireball... It would just function better (one suggestion improves the damage, while the passive + augment improves the overall use, as well as it optimizes CC)

Accelerant is still accelerant, it would just work better for CC

Fireblast could remain as fireblast, with added DR. Otherwise heatdrive is the only new ability I suggested. 

WoF is still WoF, but would be placed (to balance out that accelerant would become an aura which follows you)

 

They're not new abilities.... So how would this be a new frame? lol I also added suggestions for this to be modular... so they could only take parts out of this, instead of using the entire thing. 

 

Effects like Heatdrive or the anti-armor passive (especially if implemented via corrosive procs) don't fit with my personal idea of Ember.
It would be cool to have these effects on another frame.
For Ember, I like a lot more the damage reduction that you proposed for her 3: I had even thought something similar myself, but then decided that I didn't want defensive abilities in my proposal. =)
 

[Maka.Bones]

11 hours ago, xarvh said:

don't fit with my personal idea of Ember.

Yeah... with your personal idea. But would your personal idea of ember, actually make ember end-game viable, or benefit other gamer outside of yourself?

It's simple. Unless her heat damage is changed to "finisher damage" like all other warframe powers, or she gets an insanely huge damage buff overall, or she can strip armor, it doesn't matter what ideas we want or would like according to our own personal idea of ember....She's gonna remain a crap warframe, and she's going to continue needing a rework/buff/ Then we're going to keep making posts like these. :) 

So unless your personal idea, actually allows her to scale against enemies of all lvls/content, she still won't be on par to most of the other warframes. Unless you own the rights to ember--or were the original creator-- lets please keep our personal preferences outside of this, and instead focus on what would actually make ember into a good warframe. Because my personal idea of how I want to see ember, doesn't even fit in this game. 

Also, yeah "corrosive procs"  sound different. But they don't need to be "corrosive" they just need to have the same effect... with different visual animations/icons (or no visuals at all, just have it be innate to ember) because it's something that FIRE already does, much better than acid is capable of.  

Fire can melt metal, or disintegrate materials much more efficiently than most acids. So i don't understand what you're having an issue associating with it. People take garbage to incinerators, we cremate corpses, military used napalm to flush out armored gun-huts, or burn down cities. We rarely use vats of acid to dispose of anything, or as a weapon in war. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

@xarvh pls check out the new changes I added to fireball, accelerant, and WoF. (As well as the passive)

[xarvh]

How would the channelled accelerant work?
Every enemy in range gets the effect and keeps it for X seconds after they have left the range, or would it disappear as soon as the enemy leaves range?

What would be the difference between Heat Drive and similar abilities like Rhino, Excalibur and Atlas 1?

I'm not convinced that WoF suggestion would help with the kills-stealing problem: the range at which low-level enemies get killed would be larger than it is now.
I'm very much in favor of making WoF a non-channelled ability that does a lot of damage in a little time.

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, xarvh said:

How would the channelled accelerant work?
Every enemy in range gets the effect and keeps it for X seconds after they have left the range, or would it disappear as soon as the enemy leaves range?

Maybe keep it for 2-3s max, after they left the aura. I mainly meant it to affect enemies that stay within it.

 

2 hours ago, xarvh said:

What would be the difference between Heat Drive and similar abilities like Rhino, Excalibur and Atlas 1?

A huge one: it doesn't have any multipliers. It mainly staggers, with the chance of heat procs. (So it's more like Nova's wormhole, than rhino's/excal's/atlas' 1st). 

I actually meant for it to not  deal *any* damage at all; just work as high mobility/soft CC. Would be used as interrupt, to reposition, avoid damage, or get in close with a shotty, drop WoF, and move out fast before you're shot. If it dealt anything more than 200  damage, then people could kill anything by combining channeled accelerant, and  heatdrive. Mind you, it would be a lot of fun for ember, but not as fun for everyone else. But hey, if you or the devs want it to deal a lot of damage, I'm not opposed to it. Lol

2 hours ago, xarvh said:

I'm not convinced that WoF suggestion would help with the kills-stealing problem: the range at which low-level enemies get killed would be larger than it is now.
I'm very much in favor of making WoF a non-channelled ability that does a lot of damage in a little time.

If the damage reduction past 5m range, was drastic (like 20% of the total damage... Essentially only useful for heat procs/KD & softening incoming targets) would you be more convinced about it?

The core of the idea is just to concentrate the main amount of damage within Ember's melee range. From 8m-20m (or more, if they have it modded for range) it can just do 50, 20, or even 5% of the original damage from WoF. It wouldn't matter, as long as we can make use of the heat procs & firequake. 

But if accelerant became an aura, or if heatdrive was used, I would prefer WoF to be a burst/drop down ability like you said.(mostly for the sake of keeping gameplay active, not ruining the fun of other players, while still allowing ember to kill enemies that she directly engages with). Nova might have AMD, but with this Ember would become the AMD. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

I like the heatdrive + burst WoF Combo, mainly because it forces ember to directly emgage with enemies (or cautious players could just use it as a trap, and to escape). It puts a fragile Warframe in danger, but it still gives her options to avoid the danger--if the player is active.

It would reward active players by optimizing the time that enemies are Cc'd, and by killing enemies faster (from it being a burst, combined with channeled accelerant). This combo would still be expensive to spam though. So we wont be able to mindlessly spam it across an entire mission. 

It's a very good example of the saying "best defense, is a strong offense" which is exactly how fire tends to behave. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

On 3/14/2018 at 7:44 PM, Maka.Bones said:

If the damage reduction past 5m range, was drastic (like 20% of the total damage... Essentially only useful for heat procs/KD & softening incoming targets) would you be more convinced about it?

The core of the idea is just to concentrate the main amount of damage within Ember's melee range. From 8m-20m (or more, if they have it modded for range) it can just do 50, 20, or even 5% of the original damage from WoF. It wouldn't matter, as long as we can make use of the heat procs & firequake. 

Yes, the damage reduction would need to be non-linear, and skewed towards the near range, but at this point it wouldn't be much different than how it is now.
Not sure if it's a good idea to concentrate Ember's effectiveness in melee range, at least until melee ranges get nerfed.

[Arcira]

The range based damage scaling for WoF is a good suggestion. However Accelerant and the core design of WoF should stay the same because it synergise very well with each other. In my opinion the best ability combination in the entire game. It´s a lot of fun bullet jumping through enemies and casting Accelerant it in midair. A nice QoL change would be if you could cancle the roll animation when casting.

Fireblast need one simple change: make it like frostglobe and remove the duration. You can cast up to 4 rings of fire and the next cast replaces the first one.

Her Fireball however needs some bigger changes. You need to ask yourself a question: why would I use an ability that does less dps then any other weapon? Either it adds sustain damage (like toggle abilities do) or it provides some kind of utility.

For her passive I´d prefer something like increased ability damage by 1% and energy regeneration by 1/sec for every enemy in range suffering a heat proc (instead of herself).

Last of I would prefer if ember gets the same base energy as other caster frames (volt, saryn) in order to make quick thinking a bit more efficient on her. Thats a good way to buff her surviveability. And please remove that energy gain restriction for toggle abilities. There is nothing wrong with permanent active abilities since you have to manage them as well.

Iam not a big fan of these armor stripping stuff since first of there are a lot of possibilies to reduce armor and second it´s the core problem of enemy scaling that should fixed not the frames facing it.

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Arcira

[Maka.Bones]

8 hours ago, xarvh said:

Yes, the damage reduction would need to be non-linear, and skewed towards the near range, but at this point it wouldn't be much different than how it is now.
Not sure if it's a good idea to concentrate Ember's effectiveness in melee range, at least until melee ranges get nerfed.

It would be much better, for the simple fact that we could use firequake more effectively (which is half of the reason why people disliked the new change... it wasn't really for the damage WoF dealt. We never really cared about it. We just want our portable CC back, so we can go on melee rampages again :D)

[Maka.Bones]

5 hours ago, Arcira said:

Iam not a big fan of these armor stripping stuff since first of there are a lot of possibilies to reduce armor and second it´s the core problem of enemy scaling that should fixed not the frames facing it.

The reason it's a big issue for ember (and the reason I suggested it for ember) is because she's heat based. Most warframes deal absolute damage with their abilities (nova, for example) or have abilities which scale with weapon mods for damage (valkyr, excal, wukong, ivara). Ember is restricted to one element, which damage is reduced by armor, and has no abilities which scale with weapon mods. So her ability damage isn't only non-linear to the enemies, but she has no way of further increasing it.

Heat damage also does remove armor effectiveness... why do you think we keep using it in wars? Again, that's why I posted the trivia for thermalshock. It's something that is more effective than corrosion even is irl, for the sake of removing enemy armor. (or high-velocity piercing rounds, which is more effective at ignoring armor but is single-target)

[Maka.Bones]

I would rather have 1 effective damage ability(effective as in, it can effectively kill enemies across all lvls), with 3 utility/buff/cc/movement abilities... than have 4 damage abilities which sort of work... but aren't really effective. 

[Maka.Bones]

Edited the post, to add another passive idea (Immolation/ damage counters))

[Maka.Bones]

I changed one of fireball's original suggestions.

Original: make damage increase when charged, exponential instead of additive.

New suggestion: allow fireball to benefit from primary, or secondary weapon mods. Allow fireball to have a counter & damage multiplier for each time it hits an enemy (like snipers have)