Minimalist Ember Rework

[xarvh]

Ability 1 adds Heat damage to weapons.

Ability 2 stays as it is.

Ability 3 is like her current 1 but on impact the AoE effect is changed to her current 3.

Ability 4 consumes accumulated stacks to deal AoE damage, can be fast or slow and has an augment to make it work better vs armor.

Passive 1 inflicts Heat damage to enemies that get very close to Ember.

Passive 2 increases stacks, the increase rate is the number of enemies within 30m currently suffering a Heat proc.
This allows Ember to scale: stacks are hard to build with low level enemies that die quickly, and easy to build with high level enemies that can take Heat procs multiple times.

Hopeful consequences:
- Ember can't steal all kills in low-level missions
- Her 4 stays up only if the player is very active
- Ember is powerful enough for (most, but not all) sorties

Numbers, rationale and other wankery in the next post.
 

[xarvh]

The proposal mostly reshuffles mechanics that Ember has already.
This IMHO is important for two reasons: 1) since it's mostly known mechanics, it has less risk to break the game and 2) should be less expensive for DE to implement it.
I tried to stay on the lower side with the numbers because I want Ember viable and fun, but I don't want her OP (hello Mesa!)


Ability 1: Ignition
Toggled ability
Energy cost: 25 initial, then 3 Energy/second
Adds Heat damage to all her weapons attacks.
Works exactly as her current Fireball Frenzy augment, if it was cast on herself.
Augment 1: Fire Frenzy
Extends the benefits to allies in 15m range, adjusted for Ability Range.

This is intended to make Ember effective with a broad range of weapons.
Synergies: Can be used to build stacks for World on Fire and Accelerant will increase its damage.


Ability 2: Accelerant
Same as now.

This is the only ability pretty much everyone agrees works great.

 

Ability 3: Fireball
Energy cost: 75.

This Ability works exactly like her current Ability 1, but Energy cost and damage are multiplied by 3.
On impact, the usual AoE is replaced by the effect of her current Ability 3, including the fiery ring.
Charging increases the fireball damage (as it does now) and the radius (but not the damage) of the ring.
Augment 3: Fire Fright
Same as now. Maybe make the enemies flail a bit longer. I would be awesome if they also ran around. =)

This rolls two "meh" abilities into one that can be used both as a direct attack and as an AoE.
The attack has x3 the DPS of her current Fireball, plus the explosion.
It also gives poor squishy Ember a distance AoE attack, as well as an obvious way to build up her stacks.
But TBH the thing I like most about this is the potential for pure fire mayhem. ^_^
The Augment could use some tweaking, but should give Ember some limited CC capability beyond Accelerant.


Ability 4: World on Fire
Energy Cost: 75
The ability quickly consumes Ember's accumulated stacks, dealing massive damage around her.
Once triggered, Ember cannot interrupt it: the ability lasts until she has consumed all her stacks or until dispelled by a Nullifier.

The ability decreases the stacks at a rate of (12 / Ability Duration) per second.
Each single stack removed in this way inflicts (current stacks * Ability Strength) Heat damage to any enemy within 15m (adjusted per Ability Range).
This damage can never procs Heat.

Negative Duration can be used for very powerful and short bursts, while high Duration will result in the ability being sustained for longer periods, possibly indefinitely if there are enough enemies.
Unless the player works hard to keep accumulating stacks, WoF damage will degrade quickly.
With high Duration, WoF *can* be used as it is used now, however it can be sustained only if the player actively procs Heat.
The damage is intended so that with a 100 stacks, 300% Str, min Duration and Accelerant:

• Stacks will go from 100 to 0 in about a second
• The total damage will be roughly enough to kill a lvl 130 Ancient

Augment 4: Melt
Damage from World on Fire ignores 50% of the target armor, modified by Ability Strength, capped at 95%.

This is intended to make Ember viable vs higher level armored units.
At higher levels, ignoring 95% of armor makes a big difference, but not nearly as big difference as you'd think.
Ember does not strip armor because she is not about that. She is about dealing damage.
Ember will need about two-three casts, each with 100 stacks, 300% Str, min Duration and Accelerant to take down a lvl120 Bombard.

Passive 1: Burn
Ember inflicts (stacks * 4) Heat damage per second to any enemy within 1m range, with no Heat proc.
 

Damage has been calculated so that with 100 stacks and Accelerant, a level 50 Charger should die before attacking Ember twice.
Fluff-wise, Burn is the result of the stacks decay described above.


Passive 2: "Overheat"?
Ember has a stacks counter, going from 0 to 100.
Stacks increases at a rate of 4 per second per enemy in 30m range that is suffering a Heat proc, no matter who or what causes it.
Stacks also decreases automatically at a rate of 4 per second.

Only alive and burning enemies count: this means that if enemies die quickly, WoF will deal less damage.
Low level enemies will die quickly against high level players, so Ember won't be able to steal all kills.
If enemies instead can sustain Heat procs for longer, WoF will deal more damage
At low levels, this mechanic is intended to limit how much high-level Ember players can use WoF.
At high levels, it is NOT intended to limit WoF, but to keep Ember players active.

As long as there is at least two enemies alive and burning, Ember can build up her stacks.
Unlike Nidus, these stacks are meant to be build quickly and consumed quickly.

Unless the player keeps proccing Heat, stacks will decay from 100 to 0 in 25 seconds.
Building stacks is easy, but it requires the player to stay active


If you manage to read until this point, thank you very much for your patience and dedication to Ember. =D

Edited March 11, 2018 by xarvh

[BigPapiPimp]

I love reading ember ideas!

Combining her 1 and 3 sounds fun, but I wonder if her new base 1 you propose should act like a little like her current 3, just as an aura the surrounds her. Her augment could then buff her and her allies as you propose. All this does is give ember a weak AOE heat proc, but it would work with her 2nd passive, and take some weight out of her base unaugmented abilities.

As for her 1st passive, I don’t know if a small fire damage aura is all that interesting or wanted as a “passive” feature. Maybe keep her current goofy pyromaniac passive instead? Just so people don’t wonder whether or not Embers crazy.

[Hypernaut1]

Minimalist?

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Minimalist?

I mean minimalist “rework” not “balance changes” lol. I get your saying though. What are your ideas? Do you think Embers perfect the way she is?

[Maka.Bones]

Why are you married to the idea of giving weapon damage to her 1? ._. I really dislike any idea of adding any heat damage to my weapons, through ember's abilities. I mod my weapons & elemental damage, to work exactly how I want them to. I don't want anymore elemental damage added, because it would more often-than not, unbalance the desired effects from the elemental damage--I don't even use heat, unless it's for eidolons.  

I usually use my primary/secondary weapons, to compensate against things that ember is usually weak against (usually heavy armored units). If you add heat damage, then the weapons might lose effectiveness against those enemies (due to less corrosive/viral status procs)

I'm really sorry, but that would just make ember feel more restricting to play. 

Keep fireball on her 1st... keep it as it is. Don't even give it fireblast's current effect. Just keep it with the current napalm. It works; It just needs a little bit of a boost.

If you want to give her weapon damage? make that her 3rd ability, not her 1st. But instead of elemental damage, i'd prefer if her weapons gained incendiary, or explosive effects.... Guaranteed blast/heat procs, with added damage after the proc. That way the damage bonus won't affect/change the weapon's modded damage. 

Your suggestion to her 4th... does it mean you can't use it without stacks? ._.

Also, your changes would really change ember's current theme. They might be better suited for a different warframe altogether~ 

 

;p (kidding about the last part)

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

8 hours ago, xarvh said:

Passive 2: "Overheat"?
Ember has a stacks counter, going from 0 to 100.
Stacks increases at a rate of 4 per second per enemy in 30m range that is suffering a Heat proc, no matter who or what causes it.
Stacks also decreases automatically at a rate of 4 per second.

If stacks both increase, and decrease at the same rate.... then they'd never build. Or do you mean that stacks *only decrease* after no enemies have been proc'd with heat? If so, I think it would help if there was a 3s delay, before stacks start to decrease.  Otherwise, i don't think players would be able to build them effectively... would just feel frustrating. 

Edit: Or do you mean that... if at least two enemies have heat procs, then the counters increase at a rate of 4/s? So it isn't one counter, per enemy procced... more like you gain 4/s, while enemies have active procs?

This would prove frustrating in wave-type missions, because of the delay between each wave. It would be very difficult to play ember at her optimal capacity, and would just feel frustrating; not fun/relaxing. 

Also, enemies shouldn't stay alive more than a few seconds each.... Letting them stay alive longer than that, just sets us up to get shot/killed. Warframe isn't final fantasy. ._.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

8 hours ago, xarvh said:

Ability 3: Fireball
Energy cost: 75.

This Ability works exactly like her current Ability 1, but Energy cost and damage are multiplied by 3.
On impact, the usual AoE is replaced by the effect of her current Ability 3, including the fiery ring.
Charging increases the fireball damage (as it does now) and the radius (but not the damage) of the ring.
Augment 3: Fire Fright
Same as now.

No x3 energy.... pls x.x. The ability doesn't need increased energy... it needs increased damage. I could just cast fireball 3 times, if I wanted to get that. Even then, it's still not enough/practical. 

Changing the current napalm for the fiery ring,  would make it worse/looks less cool. The middle of fireblast's fire ring, does 0 damage to enemies btw.

Napalm's damage currently stacks with how long fireball is charged. The radius of napalm increases with ability power. You are suggesting to remove that as well. So your suggestion would be a nerf to fireball... not a buff.

 

8 hours ago, xarvh said:

Augment 3: Fire Fright
Same as now. Maybe make the enemies flail a bit longer. I would be awesome if they also ran around. =)

Flailing enemies, running around.... would look really cool/funny lol. Yeah, it would make them harder to shoot... But it would still look pretty awesome. This Is cool :D

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

I'm being really negative with your suggestions, so I think ima go now... x.x

Sorry ._. I don't want to keep being negative/criticizing your ideas. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[BigPapiPimp]

I straight stole your idea-, I mean, was inspired by your 1 & 3 combination concept, so I added it to a topic I made:

 

[BigPapiPimp]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Why are you married to the idea of giving weapon damage to her 1? ._. I really dislike any idea of adding any heat damage to my weapons

I agree an option to opt out of damage buffs are important, which is why I think making such changes religated to augment mods or emplaced buff totems like volts shield is a good place for such buff to be. I do think they should exist though, so people who like to buff themselves or even allies have the potential to do so.

33 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

No x3 energy.... pls x.x. The ability doesn't need increased energy... it needs increased damage. 

Where you see an increase cost, I see an opportunity to validate my (probably) OP changes for Embers fireball lol.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I agree an option to opt out of damage buffs are important, which is why I think making such changes religated to augment mods or emplaced buff totems like volts shield is a good place for such buff to be. I do think they should exist though, so people who like to buff themselves or even allies have the potential to do so.

Where you see an increase cost, I see an opportunity to validate my (probably) OP changes for Embers fireball lol.

Yeah I would like it as an *augment* similar to how it is now. But i'd also like to be able to play my ember as a caster, how I currently play her--and how they said that they currently intend her to be. 

Yeah I would agree, if the changes suggested were ^3 damage, for *3 energy cost..... *3 energy for *3 damage is not any different than casting fireball 3 times. I can do the same thing already. It isn't a change, or a buff. It's the same thing.... Just like WoF, it would just make it more expensive/annoying, and We wouldn't be able to use it as an effective CC (just like WoF now)

No x3 cost, because it would remove its effective use as a good CC. A  *3 energy cost would keep us from being able to spam it as an effective CC. Might as well basically turn ember to something else already, and tell me to stop playing her. Because none of these suggestions would bring her on-par to any A+ warframe. Which apparently, to everyone else it means "making her OP".  No, that's not how it works. If something sucks, and you're buffing it to be on par with everything else, it isn't called "making it OP.

It's called buffing it to the same performance potential, that other frames are capable of.  Or in other terms "buffing it, for balance purposes"

 

Edit: You guys don't seem to remember that 4/5 enemy factions have heat resistance, which directly hinders her. For her to stay *viable* she needs buffs which would seem "OP" on any other warframe. 

Re-Edit: It's a cool idea, to give fireballs an explosion (and the effect of fireblast). I'll give Xarvh credit for that. It's just that it wouldn't be better than fireball's current use. The CC from fireblast doesn't last a significant amount. The knockdown is very short. The fire-ring, doesn't damage enemies in the center. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[BigPapiPimp]

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah I would like it as an *augment* similar to how it is now. But i'd also like to be able to play my ember as a caster, how I currently play her--and how they said that they currently intend her to be. 

Yeah I would agree, if the changes suggested were ^3 damage, for x3 energy cost..... x3 energy for x3 cost is not any different than casting fireball 3 times. I can do the same thing already. It isn't a change, or a buff. It's the same thing.... Just like WoF, it would just make it more expensive/annoying, and We wouldn't be able to use it as an effective CC (just like WoF now)

 

No x3 cost, because it's good as a CC. x3 cost would keep us from being able to spam it. Might as well basically turn ember to something else already, and tell me to stop playing her.

I hear you, but if your spamming the ability to CC every enemy, you might aswell flash accelerant. I use fireblast to CC one guy in particular who I also happen to be shooting at, ive been doing it more since the nerf to WoF firequake.

but in that same patch, DE gave us all these cool efffcts for fireball, like napalm, and a size that scales with power strength.

It’s made me really want to play a cast who lays down massive hurt with some big magical fire balls, not just pew pew every now and then with one while I shooting at something dowbsights.

I think I get your place style, and I enjoy using it, could you see any space for the one I’m talking about, or do you think they’d kill each other to exist?

[BigPapiPimp]

7 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah I would agree, if the changes suggested were ^3 damage, for x3 energy cost..... x3 energy for x3 cost is not any different than casting fireball 3 times. I can do the same thing already.

What if the base damage and cost for fireball where multiplied by 3, but then when you fully charged it,  it’s damage would then become x3.5 this new increased base, while the new increased cost would just double?

that was my idea anyway. I put it in the thread I made.

[Maka.Bones]

4 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I hear you, but if your spamming the ability to CC every enemy, you might aswell flash accelerant. I use fireblast to CC one guy in particular who I also happen to be shooting at, ive been doing it more since the nerf to WoF firequake.

Accelerant isn't good at holding enemies in a chokepoint. Fireballs are.

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

What if the base damage and cost for fireball where multiplied by 3, but then when you fully charged it,  it’s damage would then become x3.5 this new increased base, while the new increased cost would just double?

that was my idea anyway. I put it in the thread I made.

Yeah, that would be significantly better (I think). It would feel more rewarding for the energy cost & time spent. 

[BigPapiPimp]

Just now, Maka.Bones said:

Accelerant isn't good at holding enemies in a chokepoint. Fireballs are.

I’d think flash accelerant would be even better then non-WoF tripping balls when it comes to stopping enemies at certain spots.

if you mean flavor wise then yeah I agree lol. I wish that where the case in game.

[Maka.Bones]

Well it's that the CC from accelerant, doesn't seem to last very long--even though it is useful.

A fireball's napalm re-applies this effect, and it applies it to any incoming enemy (new spawns included).  Accelerant will only stun existing enemies, for 5s. 

Edit: but yeah, flash accelerant would be incredibly useful with the fireballs you suggested. Gotta get that max charge!

Edited March 12, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

19 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Minimalist?

I fear it was not the best word for it. -'_-
The idea is that I'm mostly reshuffling abilities rather than adding anything completely new or even changing the numbers much.

The only really new stuff is her passive and her 4.

 

 

 

 

[xarvh]

@Maka.Bones
 

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Why are you married to the idea of giving weapon damage to her 1?

Because I really like it, and because I got very positive feedback about it.
More to the point, this ability changes with the weapons you use, opening a broader range of possibilities.
Without this, Ember would end up using only weapons that deal a lot of fire damage, which I find limiting.
I want the frame to be viable with a wide variety of setups.
Every weapon can be used with Accelerant and can be used to build stacks, and every weapon will change how you do those things.

 

Quote

Your suggestion to her 4th... does it mean you can't use it without stacks? ._

Yes.
Unless you have stacks you can't use her 4.
This is really important.
On the plus side, stacks are a lot faster to build than with Nidus.

 

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Also, your changes would really change ember's current theme. They might be better suited for a different warframe altogether~

=P =P =P =P =P =P =P =P

 

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Edit: Or do you mean that... if at least two enemies have heat procs, then the counters increase at a rate of 4/s? So it isn't one counter, per enemy procced... more like you gain 4/s, while enemies have active procs?

If you procced 10 enemies, stacks increase by (10 - 1) * 4 = 36 every second.

 

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Also, enemies shouldn't stay alive more than a few seconds each.... Letting them stay alive longer than that, just sets us up to get shot/killed. Warframe isn't final fantasy.

If you can kill them quickly already you don't need WoF.
You can't press 4 to win. That's the whole point of the proposal.

 

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No x3 energy.... pls x.x. The ability doesn't need increased energy... it needs increased damage. I could just cast fireball 3 times, if I wanted to get that. Even then, it's still not enough/practical.

Casting fireball 3 times will take you 3 times the time, ie 7.5 seconds.
With this, you can do the same damage charging only once, ie 2.5 seconds.
Charging becomes A LOT more time effective.

 

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Napalm's damage currently stacks with how long fireball is charged. The radius of napalm increases with ability power. You are suggesting to remove that as well. So your suggestion would be a nerf to fireball... not a buff.

This is a very good point.
I thought about how to keep the napalm effect and couldn't find any solution that satisfied me.
Here I will follow your suggestion and just leave to DE to decide, in the extremely improbable case they considered my proposal.

 

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I'm being really negative with your suggestions, so I think ima go now... x.x
Sorry ._. I don't want to keep being negative/criticizing your ideas. 

Nah, it's cool. <3
I really appreciate your input and the fact that you took the time to write down your thoughts.
It forces me to understand better what I wrote and how different people will read it.

 

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You guys don't seem to remember that 4/5 enemy factions have heat resistance, which directly hinders her. For her to stay *viable* she needs buffs which would seem "OP" on any other warframe. 

I very much don't want Ember to be good everywhere.
 

Edited March 12, 2018 by xarvh

[SixDimensions]

I'd like to see Ember's first ability behave similar to the Flame Alchemist from Fullmetal Alchemist.  In essence, Ember has a targeting cone in front of her affected by range mods.  Upon cast fire will stream to where the enemies in range are and will cause explosions (Heat and Blast proc guaranteed).  The damage will obviously be affected by strength mods and the current napalm effect can also be kept.  This will be like a directed Firequake ability.  Plus they could make it look really cool

[Maka.Bones]

8 hours ago, xarvh said:

Without this, Ember would end up using only weapons that deal a lot of fire damage, which I find limiting.

What? no! lol

No no no no..... I use accelerant for ember's abilities. My weapons aren't built around ember.... they're built around her weaknesses. They allow ember to compensate for her lack of armor-stripping. Adding heat damage to them, would just prevent her from stripping armor altogether.

A lot of people actually play this way as well. Because ember benefits more from using corrosive weapons, than using heat based weapons + accelerant. 

The accelerant will already add bonus heat damage anyway, when modded for that purpose. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/12/2018 at 10:18 AM, xarvh said:

Yes.
Unless you have stacks you can't use her 4.
This is really important.
On the plus side, stacks are a lot faster to build than with Nidus.

So you're limiting a mediocre ability, behind having stacks.... which would rarely be of use.

I prefer building stacks slower, and being able to actually make use of them....than not being able to use my abilities at all, because teammates kill enemies before I can. :/

On 3/12/2018 at 10:18 AM, xarvh said:

Casting fireball 3 times will take you 3 times the time, ie 7.5 seconds.
With this, you can do the same damage charging only once, ie 2.5 seconds.
Charging becomes A LOT more time effective.

Time effective =/= that you'll still be able to use it to actually kill a higher lvl enemy. If it's pointless to use for damage, the only use left is CC. Which means you'd also be removing that option, due to the increased energy cost.  (the KD from fireblast doesn't last longer than fireball's napalm, and napalm already procs guaranteed heat/fear, so you wouldn't be adding something new with the augment from fireblast) Again, that's just a nerf to fireball. 

 

On 3/12/2018 at 10:18 AM, xarvh said:

If you can kill them quickly already you don't need WoF.
You can't press 4 to win. That's the whole point of the proposal.

It's not about "needing" wof... It's about being able to use it, because it's fun. I don't need any of the warframes. I could do any mission with radial-blind excalibur (or lightsaber-mode excalibur... but that's absolutely boring). However I like using ember, because her abilities look cool, and she adds a different element to the gameplay. Ember is *FUN* to play... removing her abilities behind a suck-curve would kill the fun. 

I WOULD be more effective by ignoring her abilities, and only using my weapons. However If I wanted to play *just another fps* i would play the division, or CoD.

It's not about *NEED*.... and honestly, you shouldn't punish a player for having skill. That's just bad taste, and makes the game feel less rewarding/fun to play. Would make me not want to play her altogether.

On 3/12/2018 at 10:18 AM, xarvh said:

I very much don't want Ember to be good everywhere.

Yeah, I never said EVERYWHERE. But currently she's only good against 20% of the content.... where every other warframe is good against 80-100% of the content. 

She can still be good against 100% of the content, while being bad against bullets, you know? Being oneshot is still a very likely possibility, regardless of how much damage you can deal. 

Or there's also the more favorable option, of being good against 80% of the content... and only sucking against 20% of the content. Kind of the opposite of where she is now.

 

 

Are you really trying to make ember better? or are you just trying to make her worse overall, but better in ONE *very specific* niche? Because your mindset/attitude towards ember, just tells me that you WANT her to suck in the majority of the content.... 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

Seriously, you're welcome to tell me when to stop. I genuinely hate being this negative.... I feel like I have a dark cloud around me, and I rather don't like it. x.x 

I'm really sorry.

[xarvh]

 

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So you're limiting a mediocre ability, behind having stacks.... which would rarely be of use.

Taking down every non-eximus lvl120 infested or corpus in range of 15m in a second doesn't feel mediocre to me.
If you have enough enemies, you can build those stacks in a few seconds.

 

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Time effective =/= that you'll still be able to use it to actually kill a higher lvl enemy.

If you build for str and use accelerant, you can kill a lvl130 Ancient in a single headshot.
That's without counting the explosion damage.
It's higher already than I care to go.

 

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It's not about "needing" wof... It's about being able to use it

Not all abilities are useful in all contexts.
Low level players with S#&amp;&#036;ty weapons will be able to use WoF just fine.
High level players with powerful weapons will find it more useful only when dealing with higher level enemies.

 

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Are you really trying to make ember better hun? or are you just trying to make her worse overall, but better in ONE *very specific* niche? Because your mindset/attitude towards ember, just tells me that you WANT her to suck in the majority of the content....

Per your first two comments, I think you are underestimating the amount of damage she can dish out.
I think that with these changes, she should be able to tackle most sortie conditions.
I don't see her working well in spy missions and vs lvl100 Grineer with Augmented Armor condition, and you will need a magnetic weapon vs lvl100 Corpus with Augmented Shields, but that's it.
 

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Seriously, you're welcome to tell me when to stop. I genuinely hate being this negative.... I feel like I have a dark cloud around me, and I rather don't like it. x.x 

I'm really sorry.

 

Its ok. Just give me a bit more credit. I did think things through. =)