Minimalist Ember Rework

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

Taking down every non-eximus lvl120 infested or corpus in range of 15m in a second doesn't feel mediocre to me.
If you have enough enemies, you can build those stacks in a few seconds.

Except you wouldn't....

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

If you build for str and use accelerant, you can kill a lvl130 Ancient in a single headshot.
That's without counting the explosion damage.
It's higher already than I care to go.

Except that 3 fully-charged fireballs to the face--WITH accelerant & power build--Can't kill an ancient eximus... so where are you getting that from?

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

Not all abilities are useful in all contexts.
Low level players with S#&$ty weapons will be able to use WoF just fine.
High level players with powerful weapons will find it more useful only when dealing with higher level enemies.

Except that It wouldn't be more useful than just killing the higher lvl enemies, with your primary weapon... Simply because of how long it would take to ramp up. I could kill half of them with my melee, in a few seconds. Again, you're locking a skill behind a suck-curve... Effectively punishing players for being able to play skillfully. 

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

Per your first two comments, I think you are underestimating the amount of damage she can dish out.
I think that with these changes, she should be able to tackle most sortie conditions.
I don't see her working well in spy missions and vs lvl100 Grineer with Augmented Armor condition, and you will need a magnetic weapon vs lvl100 Corpus with Augmented Shields, but that's it.

Without a full-power build + accelerant? she actually can't dish out that much damage (right now).... Compare her to nova. (damage to infested enemies DOESN'T count... they're weak against fire damage, so that isn't neutral ground. Try corrupted enemies instead)

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

Its ok. Just give me a bit more credit. I did think things through. =)

Show me some numbers then~ hur hur hur

:P

 

What I mostly dislike with your build, is that I won't be able to rely on fireball for CC, or on WoF for a consistent application of KD, to my surrounding enemies. That really stings--accelerant has an animation delay,  where WoF & fireball don't force Ember to halt her movement. If you removed the animation delay from accelerant, then yeah I would be on-board with this. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

Btw, I gave you a like just because you keep trying so hard to optimize it, and are actively communicating lol. That's cool to see. I still think she would need a better way to mitigate damage though, since you'd be removing effective use of firequake & fireballs as CC. That's why I thought that removing the animation delay for accelerant might do the trick.  Maybe also to let the stun duration, scale with duration mods (or just last a couple of seconds longer). 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

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Except that 3 fully-charged fireballs to the face--WITH accelerant & power build--Can't kill an ancient eximus... so where are you getting that from?

I didn't say it was for an Eximus.
If you think Ember is not powerful enough to take down a lvl130 eximus, that's an entirely different calculation than the one I described.
 

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Simply because of how long it would take to ramp up.

How long?
If you throw a couple of Fireblasts, you will be at 100 in a handful of seconds.

 

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I could kill half of them with my melee, in a few seconds.

Yes, but melee is OP af and I hope it gets nerfed into the ground. XD
At least a melee range nerf.
 

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What I mostly dislike with your build, is that I won't be able to rely on fireball for CC

You said you barely use Fireball. O_o
 

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Without a full-power build + accelerant? she actually can't dish out that much damage (right now).... Compare her to nova. (damage to infested enemies DOESN'T count... they're weak against fire damage, so that isn't neutral ground. Try corrupted enemies instead)

As I said, I want to bring Ember to sorties, I don't care if she outdamages every other frame.
I'm fine with Nova doing more damage.
I'm testing vs Ancients because Fossilized Flesh is neutral vs Heat.
The only thing Fire is bad against is Proto Shields http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Heat_Damage (and Armor, because of the stupid high damage reduction).

I think you have a point re Accelerant animation, I think I'll make a couple of tests.

 

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

Yes, but melee is OP af and I hope it gets nerfed into the ground. XD
At least a melee range nerf.
 

Hey, hey, hey!!! I was using sylva & aegis.... Put some breaks on that nerf train lol

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

You said you barely use Fireball. O_o

Barely use it, because WoF is more effective. I use it plenty in PoE, where enemies are much further away. Fireball is a faster means of CC, than bullet jumping to them. It helps against the pesky snipers.

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

I didn't say it was for an Eximus.
If you think Ember is not powerful enough to take down a lvl130 eximus, that's an entirely different calculation than the one I described.
 

Used an eximus because they have higher resistances. Again, pls use a non-infested example. 

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

How long?
If you throw a couple of Fireblasts, you will be at 100 in a handful of seconds.

That would mean giving enemies (or my impatient teammates) a 10 second window to shoot me. But honestly... Let's say I did cast fireblast 

1st second: 9 enemies are in range, and get proc'd. (+40 stacks)

2nd sec: Teammates killed 3 enemies, 5 enemies remain (+20 stacks; 60 total) 

3rds: all previous enemies are already killed, stacks start counting down (-4; 56 total)

4th sec: 11 more enemies spawn, you cast fireblast, and animation delay causes you to lose 4 more stacks, while teammates killed 3 enemies (52stacks) one enemy shoots your butt, drops your shields.

5s) 8 enemies were affected by your fireblast, teammates kill 5 more enemies because they used AoE skills that can actually kill enemies. 3 enemies remain (92 stacks)

6s) 3 enemies have active heat procs--one of those die. 8 new enemies spawn, teammates killed 3 more enemies. 2active heat procs remain, 8 total enemies. (100 stacks)

7s) you finally have 100 stacks, which cost you a 150+ energy down payment. Now you have to use even more energy, but you get to turn on WoF. Your teammates killed 5 more enemies. 8 new enemies spawn (-150 total energy, and -4 stacks) one enemy shoots you from far away, and nearly kills you, because of the animation lock from wof, and accelerant--which the player probably wants to cast if he's using this (-50 energy... That's 200 energy, in 7s)

8s) WoF killed 3 enemies near you. Your teammates kill 7 enemies. 1 enemy remains, 8 new enemies spawn.(-4)

9s) WoF kills 4 enemies, teammates kill 5 enemies (-4) 

Does that simulation somewhat convey what you had in mind?

 

You could just use your primary, or a melee weapon instead... For better results, and less energy. That's what I mean when I say that you're gating WoF behind a "suck-curve". 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

On 3/14/2018 at 9:32 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Used an eximus because they have higher resistances. Again, pls use a non-infested example. 

And what changes? Heat damage only malus is vs proto-shields.


Re your counting, increase rate can be easily adjusted. DE finds out that it's too slow? Crank it up to 8 per enemy per second.

[Maka.Bones]

9 hours ago, xarvh said:

And what changes? Heat damage only malus is vs proto-shields.


Re your counting, increase rate can be easily adjusted. DE finds out that it's too slow? Crank it up to 8 per enemy per second.

If i can keel a lvl 100 lancer with a single firebol to the face? i'd be happy. 2 firebols for a bombard with accelerant.  1 firebol for non shield-augmented crewmen.  

Something like that is what I mean. Infested enemies are ususally 100% cloned flesh, which gives heat a huge damage boon. That boon is inexistent against most other enemies which have several ways to reduce heat damage.  Wouldn't be an issue if ember didn't only deal heat damage, or had a way to bypass damage mitigation (temporarily)

About your Re: Ok true, that's fair enough. Thought you were fixated on the rate you suggested, but it's cool if you're flexible based on what would/wouldn't work. ^^

Edited March 17, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

On 3/17/2018 at 1:01 AM, Maka.Bones said:

If i can keel a lvl 100 lancer with a single firebol to the face? i'd be happy. 2 firebols for a bombard with accelerant.  1 firebol for non shield-augmented crewmen.  

Something like that is what I mean. Infested enemies are ususally 100% cloned flesh, which gives heat a huge damage boon.

Using https://instacalc.com/42286 a lvl100 Lancer has 14801 health and 84.64% damage reduction, since Ferrite Armor has no modifiers vs Heat.
Let's ignore the explosion damage:
fireballDamage = baseDamage * headMultiplier * Str * chargeMultiplier * accelerant = 1200 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 7.4 = 106560
InflictedDamage = fireballDamage * (1 - reduction) = 106560 * (1 - 0.8464) = 16367 > 14801
So lvl100 Lancer dies with a charged fireball to the face.

Also Infested enemies don't have Cloned Flesh, they have Infested Flesh, which gives Heat a +25% bonus damage.
Again, the only one health type that takes LESS damage from Heat is Proto Shield.
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heat

On *every* other health type, Heat does at least 100% damage, before Armor.
The only thing that Heat lacks, is a way to reduce or bypass armor, but that's no particular to Heat damage.
Blast, Electricity, Magnetic all deal LESS damage than Heat vs Armor.
Impact, Gas, Viral, Void deal THE SAME damage as Heat vs Armor.
 

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, xarvh said:

Using https://instacalc.com/42286 a lvl100 Lancer has 14801 health and 84.64% damage reduction, since Ferrite Armor has no modifiers vs Heat.
Let's ignore the explosion damage:
fireballDamage = baseDamage * headMultiplier * Str * chargeMultiplier * accelerant = 1200 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 7.4 = 106560
InflictedDamage = fireballDamage * (1 - reduction) = 106560 * (1 - 0.8464) = 16367 > 14801
So lvl100 Lancer dies with a charged fireball to the face.

Also Infested enemies don't have Cloned Flesh, they have Infested Flesh, which gives Heat a +25% bonus damage.
Again, the only one health type that takes LESS damage from Heat is Proto Shield.
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heat

On *every* other health type, Heat does at least 100% damage, before Armor.
The only thing that Heat lacks, is a way to reduce or bypass armor, but that's no particular to Heat damage.
Blast, Electricity, Magnetic all deal LESS damage than Heat vs Armor.
Impact, Gas, Viral, Void deal THE SAME damage as Heat vs Armor.
 

Alright, fair points. 

[EinheriarJudith]

is someone really complaining about adding heat damage to a gun based on frame that is best at fire?. for corpus i use gas and cold. guess what element is used in making gas. heat. on grineer and infested sometimes i run radiation or heat guess what element is used to make radiation. heat. people are funny. they complain about a frame not performing but dont want to spec to boost what the frame is actually good at. last i checked gas destroys corpus and radiation is very good against grineer (since you know it causes confusion meaning you get shot less and bonus damage to some heavy units because Alloy).

Edited March 20, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, xarvh said:

Using https://instacalc.com/42286 a lvl100 Lancer has 14801 health and 84.64% damage reduction, since Ferrite Armor has no modifiers vs Heat.
Let's ignore the explosion damage:
fireballDamage = baseDamage * headMultiplier * Str * chargeMultiplier * accelerant = 1200 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 7.4 = 106560
InflictedDamage = fireballDamage * (1 - reduction) = 106560 * (1 - 0.8464) = 16367 > 14801
So lvl100 Lancer dies with a charged fireball to the face.

Also Infested enemies don't have Cloned Flesh, they have Infested Flesh, which gives Heat a +25% bonus damage.
Again, the only one health type that takes LESS damage from Heat is Proto Shield.
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heat

On *every* other health type, Heat does at least 100% damage, before Armor.
The only thing that Heat lacks, is a way to reduce or bypass armor, but that's no particular to Heat damage.
Blast, Electricity, Magnetic all deal LESS damage than Heat vs Armor.
Impact, Gas, Viral, Void deal THE SAME damage as Heat vs Armor.
 

You should see this btw 

It's in the same link you shared. Some of the numbers you suggested don't add up. 

[Maka.Bones]

16 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

is someone really complaining about adding heat damage to a gun based on frame that is best at fire?. for corpus i use gas and cold. guess what element is used in making gas. heat. on grineer and infested sometimes i run radiation or heat guess what element is used to make radiation. heat. people are funny. they complain about a frame not performing but dont want to spec to boost what the frame is actually good at. last i checked gas destroys corpus and radiation is very good against grineer (since you know it causes confusion meaning you get shot less and bonus damage to some heavy units because Alloy).

Nah, just complaining about trading a "cast ability" for a "buff ability" from a "caster frame.

If the heat damage was also added as a byproduct of another ability (like flash accelerant already does) then yeah, sweet... would still preffer better values than it currently has, but it's still good.

But completely removing one of her abilities, just to get a fire buff to weapons? I just don't like that lol. Not unless it's much higher than it currently is. But you don't even need to remove an ability to get this buff... that's my main complaint lol. It would just be removing an ability for no reason. Instead why not just let fireball also buff ember, via the napalm?

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

12 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

You should see this btw 

It's in the same link you shared. Some of the numbers you suggested don't add up. 

You will have to be more specific than that.

[EinheriarJudith]

17 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Nah, just complaining about trading a "cast ability" for a "buff ability" from a "caster frame.

If the heat damage was also added as a byproduct of another ability (like flash accelerant already does) then yeah, sweet... would still preffer better values than it currently has, but it's still good.

But completely removing one of her abilities, just to get a fire buff to weapons? I just don't like that lol. Not unless it's much higher than it currently is. But you don't even need to remove an ability to get this buff... that's my main complaint lol. It would just be removing an ability for no reason. Instead why not just let fireball also buff ember, via the napalm?

i gotcha. unlike some i think ember is great. i only use elemental combinations that include heat.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i gotcha. unlike some i think ember is great. i only use elemental combinations that include heat.

Elemental combos don't benefit from accelerant tho.

Also, I don't use much else outside of viral/corrosive. So to me, it feels redundant. It would just dilute my proc chances even further. I mean, I don't think it should be removed from ember's kit altogether--i get that some people like it. I just prefer it as an option to use... not a key part of her kit (unless it could perform on par with corrosive/viral damage). 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, xarvh said:

You will have to be more specific than that.

Just that ember's abilities deal a lot more damage to infested, than you suggested. 

Also, other warframes that deal radiation/magnetic damage, either deal an overwhelming amount of damage (Nova's AMD does 200k damage in a 15m radius... so armor reduction doesn't matter much) Or they have a method of armor-stripping (mag does magnetic damage, but she removes armor)

Viral damage already has an inherent way to scale against armor... viral procs reduce enemy HP. 

Frost has a way of reducing armor (I believe) but even without that... his CC abilities are so solid, that he doesn't need to rely on his ability damage to kill enemies. He can lock enemies in place, and eliminate them with his weapons. 

The other damages aren't used as a warframe's main source of damage

Ember has none of those things available to her. So her fire damage scales poorly... That's why I've been saying that she either needs better CC, or overwhelming amounts of damage, or to be tankier... but the preference most players seem to have, is to keep ember as a glass cannon. Which leaves two options: Better CC, or overwhelming amounts of damage (not just 1.5k damage. She needs at least ONE seemingly overpowered damage ability, for your suggestion to work)

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[EinheriarJudith]

14 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Elemental combos don't benefit from accelerant tho.

Also, I don't use much else outside of viral/corrosive. So to me, it feels redundant. It would just dilute my proc chances even further. I mean, I don't think it should be removed from ember's kit altogether--i get that some people like it. I just prefer it as an option to use... not a key part of her kit (unless it could perform on par with corrosive/viral damage). 

 

they benefit from shooting through fire blast. heat is a pretty neutral elemental damage only being bad against proto shield. not many units use proto shield though. and while accelerant will not boost elemental combination it still boosts heat damage. i could run corrosive/heat and double dip on accelerant and fire blast while still dealing bonus damage to armor if im fighting grineer. but sometimes i dont want to deal with how annoying ancient healers are or depending on mood dont want to deal with being swiss cheese by grineer so i use radiation. thats the good thing about options.

[xarvh]

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Just that ember's abilities deal a lot more damage to infested, than you suggested. 

No.
Ember abilities deal +50% damage to *some* infested (crawlers, runners, infested ospreys), +25% to *some* other infested (chargers, leapers) and +0% to those that actually matter (ancients, boilers, brood mothers, mutalist moas).

 

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Also, other warframes that deal radiation/magnetic damage, either deal an overwhelming amount of damage (Nova's AMD does 200k damage in a 15m radius... so armor reduction doesn't matter much) Or they have a method of armor-stripping (mag does magnetic damage, but she removes armor)

That's not you have been saying.
You have been saying, over and over again, that Heat does less damage to everything. It is simply NOT true.
Don't move the goalpost.
We all agree that Ember needs a way to deal with Armor and that there are frames that are much better than her even if they don't use Heat damage, no one argues with that.
But the problem has nothing to do with Heat damage per se as you kept insisting over and over and over again.
If you say something while meaning another, people lose the ability to follow your thought process.

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, xarvh said:

No.
Ember abilities deal +50% damage to *some* infested (crawlers, runners, infested ospreys), +25% to *some* other infested (chargers, leapers) and +0% to those that actually matter (ancients, boilers, brood mothers, mutalist moas).

 

That's not you have been saying.
You have been saying, over and over again, that Heat does less damage to everything. It is simply NOT true.
Don't move the goalpost.
We all agree that Ember needs a way to deal with Armor and that there are frames that are much better than her even if they don't use Heat damage, no one argues with that.
But the problem has nothing to do with Heat damage per se as you kept insisting over and over and over again.
If you say something while meaning another, people lose the ability to follow your thought process.

you can deal with armor in your weapons. if enemies had no armor she would be devastating because heat damage destroys red hp. and you are right heat does not deal less damage to anything but proto shield. it deals neutral or normal damage to all but proto shield.

[Maka.Bones]

25 minutes ago, xarvh said:

No.
Ember abilities deal +50% damage to *some* infested (crawlers, runners, infested ospreys), +25% to *some* other infested (chargers, leapers) and +0% to those that actually matter (ancients, boilers, brood mothers, mutalist moas).

 

That's not you have been saying.
You have been saying, over and over again, that Heat does less damage to everything. It is simply NOT true.
Don't move the goalpost.
We all agree that Ember needs a way to deal with Armor and that there are frames that are much better than her even if they don't use Heat damage, no one argues with that.
But the problem has nothing to do with Heat damage per se as you kept insisting over and over and over again.
If you say something while meaning another, people lose the ability to follow your thought process.

No, it IS true, because ember has no means of bypassing armor. Not like Mag does. 

Ember has no CC locks, like frost does

Ember has no overwhelming damage, like Nova does.

I've said multiple times, that ember needs either better CC, or a lot more damage. 

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/13/2018 at 6:19 AM, Maka.Bones said:

Without a full-power build + accelerant? she actually can't dish out that much damage (right now).... Compare her to nova. (damage to infested enemies DOESN'T count... they're weak against fire damage, so that isn't neutral ground. Try corrupted enemies instead)

 

On 3/13/2018 at 6:19 AM, Maka.Bones said:

Except that It wouldn't be more useful than just killing the higher lvl enemies, with your primary weapon... Simply because of how long it would take to ramp up. I could kill half of them with my melee, in a few seconds. Again, you're locking a skill behind a suck-curve... Effectively punishing players for being able to play skillfully. 

 

On 3/13/2018 at 6:19 AM, Maka.Bones said:

Without a full-power build + accelerant? she actually can't dish out that much damage (right now).... Compare her to nova. (damage to infested enemies DOESN'T count... they're weak against fire damage, so that isn't neutral ground. Try corrupted enemies instead)

 

On 3/13/2018 at 6:19 AM, Maka.Bones said:

What I mostly dislike with your build, is that I won't be able to rely on fireball for CC, or on WoF for a consistent application of KD, to my surrounding enemies. That really stings--accelerant has an animation delay,  where WoF & fireball don't force Ember to halt her movement. If you removed the animation delay from accelerant, then yeah I would be on-board with this. 

Have you just been ignoring what i've said? lol

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/11/2018 at 9:08 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah I would agree, if the changes suggested were ^3 damage, for *3 energy cost..... *3 energy for *3 damage is not any different than casting fireball 3 times. I can do the same thing already. It isn't a change, or a buff. It's the same thing.... Just like WoF, it would just make it more expensive/annoying, and We wouldn't be able to use it as an effective CC (just like WoF now)

 

On 3/11/2018 at 9:37 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Well it's that the CC from accelerant, doesn't seem to last very long--even though it is useful.

A fireball's napalm re-applies this effect, and it applies it to any incoming enemy (new spawns included).  Accelerant will only stun existing enemies, for 5s. 

 

 

On 3/11/2018 at 9:08 PM, Maka.Bones said:

The CC from fireblast doesn't last a significant amount. The knockdown is very short. The fire-ring, doesn't damage enemies in the center. 

 

On 3/11/2018 at 5:55 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Edit: Or do you mean that... if at least two enemies have heat procs, then the counters increase at a rate of 4/s? So it isn't one counter, per enemy procced... more like you gain 4/s, while enemies have active procs?

This would prove frustrating in wave-type missions, because of the delay between each wave. It would be very difficult to play ember at her optimal capacity, and would just feel frustrating; not fun/relaxing. 

Also, enemies shouldn't stay alive more than a few seconds each.... Letting them stay alive longer than that, just sets us up to get shot/killed. Warframe isn't final fantasy.

 

On 3/12/2018 at 6:42 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Time effective =/= that you'll still be able to use it to actually kill a higher lvl enemy. If it's pointless to use for damage, the only use left is CC. Which means you'd also be removing that option, due to the increased energy cost.  (the KD from fireblast doesn't last longer than fireball's napalm, and napalm already procs guaranteed heat/fear, so you wouldn't be adding something new with the augment from fireblast) Again, that's just a nerf to fireball. 

 

 

On 3/12/2018 at 6:42 PM, Maka.Bones said:

It's not about "needing" wof... It's about being able to use it, because it's fun. I don't need any of the warframes. I could do any mission with radial-blind excalibur (or lightsaber-mode excalibur... but that's absolutely boring). However I like using ember, because her abilities look cool, and she adds a different element to the gameplay. Ember is *FUN* to play... removing her abilities behind a suck-curve would kill the fun. 

I WOULD be more effective by ignoring her abilities, and only using my weapons. However If I wanted to play *just another fps* i would play the division, or CoD.

It's not about *NEED*.... and honestly, you shouldn't punish a player for having skill. That's just bad taste, and makes the game feel less rewarding/fun to play. Would make me not want to play her altogether.

 

[Maka.Bones]

@xarvh What I mostly keep repeating is CC, and that she does nowhere near enough damage to bypass armor--like nova. Heat damage from ember's abilities scale like crap because she has no way to bypass enemy armor, she doesn't do overwhelming damage like nova, and she doesn't have the adequate CC to negate enemy action for her to take her time with killing them. She doesn't have armor-stripping like mag. 

THAT is what i've been trying to tell you this entire time. Heat damage is mentioned because it is affected by armor.

• You're not adding a way to bypass, or remove armor.
• You're not adding overwhelming amount of damage
• you're not giving her good/hard CC abilities with long duration

Without those things, your build will not make ember better/more survivable. She's still going to be an unfinished concept, because she will still have the same issues she's having now. So please actually listen before you lose your cool with me. Go to your first post even. See what i keep bringing up about fireball, and about WoF being a good CC... Which you completely remove the possibility of using it as an effective CC, by blocking it behind stacks. How I complain that accelerant's CC has too short of a duration. That fireblast's knockdown doesn't work, and WoF already does the same CC that fireblast has, but better. 

The reason I keep mentioning heat to you, is because I want you to realize those things. Instead of me spelling it out for you. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[xarvh]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

You should see this btw 

It's in the same link you shared. Some of the numbers you suggested don't add up. 

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which numbers I suggested don't add up.

 

Quote

Edit: You guys don't seem to remember that 4/5 enemy factions have heat resistance, which directly hinders her.

 

Quote

That boon is inexistent against most other enemies which have several ways to reduce heat damage.

 

I'm done.

 

[Maka.Bones]

Just now, xarvh said:

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which numbers I suggested don't add up.

I'm done.

 

 

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

Just that ember's abilities deal a lot more damage to infested, than you suggested. 

And you quoted me TWO times, yet decided to ignore the 10 times that I mentioned ember's lack of damage, or lack of effective CC. 

Then yes, i hope you're done. 

[Maka.Bones]

8 minutes ago, xarvh said:

That boon is inexistent against most other enemies which have several ways to reduce heat damage.

Yes, other enemies have several ways of reducing heat damage:

1. armor (which every single faction gets, increasing amounts of past lvl 40... infested included)
2. proto shields -- Corpus, and some corrupted units get this. 
3. Eximus units get elemental reduction, and grant elemental reduction

8 minutes ago, xarvh said:

Edit: You guys don't seem to remember that 4/5 enemy factions have heat resistance, which directly hinders her.

I should've also mentioned that infested also gain heat damage reduction at higher lvls. Because of ancient healers/disruptors, and because they also get armor. So actually, all enemy factions can reduce heat damage. And yes you're right... they can also reduce all kinds of elemental damage. However other warframes have ways to get around that. Ember doesn't. 

Dude, why do you keep ignoring all of the other times that i've mentioned the lack of CC, or lack of bypassing armor (which you said you don't personally want for ember), or the lack of overwhelming damage?  If you're gonna quote me, as if i'm saying something... actually take it in context. Read the entire thing in the context of what i'm saying. Don't just focus on one single thing, ignoring the rest. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones