(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 (edited) This is a revisit thread, just so you know, anyways... Welcome! Here, I wanna' talk about Wukong, and why he should be better than he is. Wukong has always been ragged on by the community since he's been introduced, many calling him "useless", a "waste of a slot", "weak". Those people are wrong. Today I want to talk about where Wukong's problems actually lie, how effective he is compared to other Frames, and how to change him. Wukong is really weird. Introduced to the main build after he was in Warframe China as a timed exclusive, Wukong is one of the two Warframe's in the game who feel really, like really badly out of place (the other being Nezha, I'll get to him in another post). Wukong has two abilities that are just so weak and impractical that they might as well not exist useless you're using the augments. One ability is just downright unfair with just about on downsides. And the Special Weapon he has is by far the best conceptually, but is executed so poorly it feels generic and is downright a bit disappointing. Regardless, even through all of that, Wukong is actually pretty strong. Defy is a damn good survival mechanic while Primal Fury's Iron Staff is pretty decent and has a good range (although it should logically be the longest). He has an absolutely mind-boggling synergy with Iron Vault and Glaives which is great, and his base stats are pretty solid. So what's wrong with Wukong? Well my main gripes lie in Iron Jab (1st) and Cloud Walker (3rd). Iron Jab has a infuriatingly short range with a pretty bad damage type. And Cloud Walker is... Cloud Walker. Like seriously how does this fit into a melee Frames' kit? What is this supposed to do? I guess it's there for when s#it hits the fan, but not particularly useful otherwise (unless I'm missing something). I have my gripes with his other two abilities: Defy (2nd) and Primal Fury (4th), so I'll poke at it in this. Without further ado, let's jump at Wukong! Mystic Walker Myth - The Wukong Revisit (time to make Chinese Goku kids!) Improved Attributes - For a tank-ish melee, Wukong doesn't really have anything that allows him to take well. He's supposed to be up in the enemies' faces so his stats should reflect that. Additionally, he should closer resemble his mythical counterpart in this regard, considering he can endure much. Health: Increased from 300 to 450 Shields: Decreased from 375 to 250 Armor: Increased from 225 to 350 Sprint Speed: Increased from 0.95 to 1.05 Passive - Tenacity - There's nothing inherently wrong with Tenacity, but I never feel that it actually works. The difference is so small it's almost unnoticeable. I propose that we make Wukong's passive a bit more similar to Excalibur's. NEW Passive - Honed Staff Wukong has 20% extra range and moves 10% faster with staff and polearm weapons (including The Iron Staff). bonuses are additive This new passive feels much more useful, especially since there are so many other easier methods to increase the combo counter now. 1st - Iron Jab - My god! This ability is weak! The mechanics of this ability need to be looked at again. It only hits a single enemy initially and then enemies within two meters of that enemy you hit with it. Not to mention the base range is also low, and its damage type is weak. change damage decrease damage from 800 to 400 change damage type from 100% Impact to 75% Impact + 25% Puncture increase status chance to 50% guaranteed knockdown to all enemies hit mechanical swaps Jab extend range increased to 15 meters Jab AOE extends conically over distance, up to a max width of 5 meters charge up mechanics holding the Iron Jab command will cause Wukong to do a spin attack will the Iron Staff deals 800 damage, all Impact based 100% status 10 meter radius two-handed action These changes will give Wukong's Iron Jab more utility, giving him more CC potential while also having a cheap panic button. And it's also kinda cool. 2nd - Defy - It literally just feels like a better Quick Thinking. When you take fatal damage, you drain energy to regain a boost of health (that diminishes with each death while active) and are invulnerable for a few seconds. This is very uncreative design to me, even if the ability is solid. Even Nidus and Inaros have the "defy death" or "second chance at life" thing down better than Wukong does. They all require sacrifice. I think that just energy isn't enough, so I want to change what is sacrificed. 50 energy to cast, drained 3 per second each death drains 10 energy (efficiency doesn't work) health returns Wukong will regain 75% of the health he had regained from the last Defy for example, (Wukong w/ 300 health) on first death will come back with 225 health, second death = 168.75, third death is 126.5625 Wukong will gain 50% bonus armor for 5 seconds after the invincibility period. all effects reset when Defy is deactivated This actually makes Defy feel like an ability that should be used wisely. The sacrifice to speed will be felt by the player, encouraging more skillful play. It doesn't feel like mindless "tanking" anymore. 3rd - Cloud Walker - I legitimately don't see how this fits into Wukong's kit. Sure, it's an okay at bit stealth ability and feels kinda' cool, but even so you can still trigger laser doors and you're extremely slow, can't attack, and can't pick up items. Personally, I believe that this should be more of a movement ability, considering that in the Chinese mythology, Wukong as a Cloud Walker could travel very vast miles in literal seconds. In Dragon Ball, even Goku could travel very fast on his Flying Nimbus (which if you don't know it's pretty much a cloud he can fly on). We can keep a bit of the stealth mechanics, but allow it to be more movement based, make it feel more like Wukong. costs 65 energy strictly duration-based base duration is 20 seconds can be deactivated at any time casting while airborne gives a basic new mechanics movement based ability on cast stuns enemies briefly within 12 meters(not affected by range), opening them to melee finishers Wukong summons a cloud from the heavens, allowing him to travel to new heights. while on his cloud, Wukong's speed is increased by 50% Wukong has free movement, and can also use his weapons on his cloud freedom of movement also includes vertical movement (essentially meaning flight) holding the jump command will cause vertical movement releasing the command will cause Wukong to descend (at a slowed rate) This new proposed Cloud Walker will make Wukong have an ability that feels more melee-oriented, allowing him to quickly swoop across the battlefield with his melee, destroying anything in his path. It's also much more useful, and reinforces Wukong's background. So could we please have less of this: Spoiler And more of this?: Spoiler 4th - Primal Fury - For some odd reason, the staff that in Chinese mythology can extend to a few kilometers isn't even the longest in the game. The Orthos and Cassowar are longer, lmao. I have two things that I see wrong with Iron Staff. One, its range mechanics, and two, its melee combo string. Spoiler NOT saying I want it to be this (in loving memeory of Warframe China): But seriously, can we get some better range to make it feel like it's the longest Staff ever created? new mechanics to offset the ridiculous range you could get, increase Iron Staff's attack speed to 1.25 charge up - holding down the Primal Fury command will increase the range of Wukong's staff, up to a max of 500% (about 17-20 meters) the longer the staff is, the slower you attack (-0.01 attack speed per 20% increase), max speed - low range = 1.25, max range - low speed = 0.75 energy to cast increases as staff range increases new combos Falling Oak Buster (default) - x4 melee commands (1st - Wukong swipes the staff to his right) (2nd - extends his arms while swiping to the left) (3rd - swipes upwards and outwards with the weapon) (4th - slams the edge across the ground) Spinning Crash Technique (paused combo) - x2 melee commands, pause, x4 melee commands (1st - Wukong swipes the staff to his right) (2nd - extends his arms while swiping to the left) (3rd + all - charges up before stretching the staff and spinning in circles for 4 counts) Rolling Boulder Rush (block combo) - while blocking, x6 melee commands (1st Wukong swipes the staff to his right) (2nd - extends his arms while swiping to the left) (3rd - jumps fourth, poking all frontal enemies with the staff) (4th and 5th - slams the pole into the ground twice, knocking down all enemies within 6 meters) (6th - does an Iron Jab) Cyclone Lightning Strike (hold combo) - x2 melee commands, x1 charge melee, x3 melee commands (1st - Wukong swipes the staff to his right) (2nd - extends his arms while swiping to the left) (3rd - Wukong jumps in the air while moving forwards, slamming the staff into the ground) (4th - a spin attack in the air) (5th - multiple quick hits from the Iron Staff in a short range from the air) Crushing Reach (slide/spin attack) - slide command + melee command (basic spin attack) Planting Willow (air/jump attack) - jump command + melee command (Wukong spins his staff above his head, hitting nearby enemies while also falling slower) Guiding Plank (wall dash attack) - wall dashing while attacking (basic wall dash attack) Wide Dispatch (ground finisher attack) - while enemy is on the ground, look down and attack them (basic knockdown attack) These combo changes proposed are much more practical while also retaining the "cool" factor of Iron Staff. Additionally, they could lead into interesting synergies with the rest of his abilities. The change to the range increases on Iron Staff from over time to on cast makes the player feel like they have much more control over Iron Staff, and having it be the longest melee weapons makes sense, especially since it's towering range is countered with having it's speed decrease. So anything I missed? Let me know please! I'd really love to hear from the Wukong mains out there. However, thank you ever so much for reading along. Please let me know your own thoughts on this below, and have a nice day Tenno! NEW ADDITIONS - Proposed Augments - Mystic Savior (Defy Augment) - When taking fatal damage while having Defy active, Wukong regains less health in exchange for a clone of him to spawn. 5 clone max. health regain is halved bonus armor halved increased invincibility period by 50% clones wield the Iron Staff all clones have half the stats of Wukong Edited March 16, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17 Added Attribute Changes, Removed Speed Decrease on Defy, Added Defy Augment (3.16.2018) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerishedFraud Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 This post. I like this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sitchrea Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 I was skeptical coming in, but these changes are actually pretty baller. With a few better skins, I might actually play Wukong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 @BeeOverlord and @Sitchrea Thanks so much for reading! And yes, hopefully, Wukong gets some better skins so I can stand looking at him. Pray for Hitsu San or a Deluxe Skin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDeetheSpy Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Decent stuff. One thing I would like to see is his "eyes of fire" be introduced somehow. Maybe an augment for cloud walker that lets him see enemies through walls and do additional finisher damage to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 12 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said: Decent stuff. One thing I would like to see is his "eyes of fire" be introduced somehow. Maybe an augment for cloud walker that lets him see enemies through walls and do additional finisher damage to them. That would be cool but I don't know how exactly it should tie in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjKaplis Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 *Hmm, not sure i agree that Defy should be changed. It gives him great survivability and you already have to watch out not to overuse it, recast at right moments. *His 1st could be better as quick cc with a bit more range. Otherwise just mostly useful for augment in my opinion. *And cloud walker..more movement speed while also being able to damage enemies would be better. Of course if Wukong also remains invulnerable while in cloud, it would be broken, but if instead of invulnerability that skill opens enemies in range up to finishers for few sec and: makes wukong invisible to enemies outside of the cloud/ reduces enemy accuracy drastically/ in some other way confuses enemies (as would be logical if suddenly a mystical cloud sweeps over you). That would be great. *For his 4th maybe some more range but mainly I would just like to get it look better (not just something like giant log) and better combos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmstyler Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Iron Jab - Rag dolling just needs to be removed from game IMO.. But a duration stun would be nice Defy - Its OP (but im not complaining.. cause it makes melee fun and restless) Cloud Walker - Movement speed, stealth mostly.. it should be like [Fatal Teleport] but do finishers on in range targeted melee attack when the abilty is active but deactivates on finisher (not just opening short window of time for finishers) Havent tested.. but im thinking its a Spy mission specific ability also being able to pass thru lasers? Primal Fury - seems most effective against corpus robotics.. But the initial damage is not as good as melee weapon.. Seems more like a low level "i have no modded melee" ability.. I like the idea of it.. but modding doesnt seem to sync with other abilities mods.. I would like to see Primal Fury spin the staff above Wukongs head funneling enemies to Wukong while procing impact damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)weedyodaa Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 These ideas seem great! I like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXDeadsinxX Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Pretty decent rework for Wukong. Feedback Passive: I like the new passive idea, love how it still benefits Primal Fury still. Iron Jab: Sounds pretty interesting and the ability as of right now definitely needs a change. Defy: I sorta like the change, I feel like slowing down would be a massive negative to using Defy then. I don’t have any suggestions, but I get the idea, Defy does need a change, and I like what you’ve suggested, just not the slowing down part. Cloud Walker: Love the ability suggestions that you’ve gave, the ability is pretty stale right now and I like your ideas. Primal Fury: I’m on the fence about this one, I love the faster attack speed for it and the charge up affect, but I personally enjoy the current combos, they’re amazing, but of course, that’s just me haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 1 hour ago, DjKaplis said: *Hmm, not sure i agree that Defy should be changed. It gives him great survivability and you already have to watch out not to overuse it, recast at right moments. That's true, I just felt like Defy was a bit too dry to use, so I switched it up a bit. 1 hour ago, DjKaplis said: *His 1st could be better as quick cc with a bit more range. Otherwise just mostly useful for augment in my opinion. Did I get the CC part down with the changes? 1 hour ago, DjKaplis said: *And cloud walker..more movement speed while also being able to damage enemies would be better. Of course if Wukong also remains invulnerable while in cloud, it would be broken, but if instead of invulnerability that skill opens enemies in range up to finishers for few sec and: makes wukong invisible to enemies outside of the cloud/ reduces enemy accuracy drastically/ in some other way confuses enemies (as would be logical if suddenly a mystical cloud sweeps over you). That would be great. Oh, Wukong isn't in the cloud, he's riding on top of it. And the stun is only a one time thing when you activate it. And yes, there's no invulnerability, though I do feel like an evasion bonus would be nice, although I think the movement increase already makes up for that. This sounds like it could works as an Augment however... 1 hour ago, DjKaplis said: *For his 4th maybe some more range but mainly I would just like to get it look better (not just something like giant log) and better combos. I think DE's version of the Iron Staff is by far the best looking version I've seen in current media. And yes, the combos feel a bit too short ranged and clunky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) @(XB1)Mythical Warden 37 minutes ago, (XB1)Mythical Warden said: These ideas seem great! I like the idea. Thank you! @Grimmstyler 49 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said: Iron Jab - Rag dolling just needs to be removed from game IMO.. But a duration stun would be nice There are no ragdolls, just knockdowns. Rag dolling enemies would be a bit annoying. 49 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said: Defy - Its OP (but im not complaining.. cause it makes melee fun and restless) Cloud Walker - Movement speed, stealth mostly.. it should be like [Fatal Teleport] but do finishers on in range targeted melee attack when the abilty is active but deactivates on finisher (not just opening short window of time for finishers) Havent tested.. but im thinking its a Spy mission specific ability also being able to pass thru lasers? :) It's not able to pass through lasers, which is really dumb which makes it not particularly useful for anything. And yes, I'll add in the finishers on end too. 49 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said: Primal Fury - seems most effective against corpus robotics.. But the initial damage is not as good as melee weapon.. Seems more like a low level "i have no modded melee" ability.. I like the idea of it.. but modding doesnt seem to sync with other abilities mods.. I would like to see Primal Fury spin the staff above Wukongs head funneling enemies to Wukong while procing impact damage Oh, trust me, the Iron Staff is very strong (even more so than Valkyr's Talons for Hysteria I'd say). While it is very effective against the Corpus, Infested and Grineer can also fall to their knees from this (or whatever the Infested have...)! @xXDeadsinxX 34 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said: Pretty decent rework for Wukong. Feedback Passive: I like the new passive idea, love how it still benefits Primal Fury still. Iron Jab: Sounds pretty interesting and the ability as of right now definitely needs a change. Defy: I sorta like the change, I feel like slowing down would be a massive negative to using Defy then. I don’t have any suggestions, but I get the idea, Defy does need a change, and I like what you’ve suggested, just not the slowing down part. Cloud Walker: Love the ability suggestions that you’ve gave, the ability is pretty stale right now and I like your ideas. Primal Fury: I’m on the fence about this one, I love the faster attack speed for it and the charge up affect, but I personally enjoy the current combos, they’re amazing, but of course, that’s just me haha. Thank you for the feedback! Passive Talk: Thank you! It's like Wukong's spin on Excalibur's passive. Iron Jab: Yup, was pushing for more than one function without making in overly complicated, kinda' like Gara's Shattered Lash. Defy: I removed the slow down effect on Defy, yeah, too much slowing for a day. Cloud Walker: If nothing else gets into the game at least make it this! Cloud Walker could be so fun! Primal Fury: Yeah, it just comes down to a difference in opinion. I personally feel as though the combos are too short-ranged, although they do have that cool factor. What I was trying to achieve with the changes was make Wukong as powerful as ever while also making his combos cool and fun. Thank you for the feedback Deadsin! Edited March 16, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXDeadsinxX Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 17 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: @xXDeadsinxX Thank you for the feedback! Passive Talk: Thank you! It's like Wukong's spin on Excalibur's passive. Iron Jab: Yup, was pushing for more than one function without making in overly complicated, kinda' like Gara's Shattered Lash. Defy: I removed the slow down effect on Defy, yeah, too much slowing for a day. Cloud Walker: If nothing else gets into the game at least make it this! Cloud Walker could be so fun! Primal Fury: Yeah, it just comes down to a difference in opinion. I personally feel as though the combos are too short-ranged, although they do have that cool factor. What I was trying to achieve with the changes was make Wukong as powerful as ever while also making his combos cool and fun. Thank you for the feedback Deadsin! Of course, feedback is always a plus haha! Thank for getting rid of the slow down for Defy, appreciate that for sure. For Cloud Walker, your ideas for it I’d love to see in the game. I really do enjoy using the combos for Primal Fury, but I’d love to see what the combos would be like in the game, maybe I’d like them in the game, just depends haha. Anyways, love your ideas so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajochi Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I like what I'm seeing. Son Goku is based off of the Sun Wukong from the mythos. Your rework suggestions reminds me of this depiction that I like very much. Of course, I would like for either Wukongs clone technique to come into play, maybe put on Defy when it triggers, also summons a Spector that runs around smacking enemies for X seconds. Or to be put on Primal Fury so he summons up to 3 spectors all running around beating everything in sight. Usually I would also ask for some version of the 72- Arts of Transformation but that might be asking for a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, Sajochi said: Of course, I would like for either Wukongs clone technique to come into play, maybe put on Defy when it triggers, also summons a Spector that runs around smacking enemies for X seconds. Or to be put on Primal Fury so he summons up to 3 spectors all running around beating everything in sight. Usually I would also ask for some version of the 72- Arts of Transformation but that might be asking for a lot. Huh... I've got it. Augment. Defy. When you die, a clone comes back and does something. The question is, exactly what can it do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight_Researcher Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I'm actually really in favor of this rework. Wukong could use a bit more to really push himself over what a lot of the other Warframes can offer, and this rework really does promote a thought process that works towards that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXDeadsinxX Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: Huh... I've got it. Augment. Defy. When you die, a clone comes back and does something. The question is, exactly what can it do? Sounds pretty interesting actually. The clone could use Primal Fury or something. Edited March 16, 2018 by xXDeadsinxX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajochi Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: Huh... I've got it. Augment. Defy. When you die, a clone comes back and does something. The question is, exactly what can it do? Operates like a spector. So it fights, cast abilities, etc. It shouldn't have too much survivability. You get a battle buddy but you can't tell it what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXDeadsinxX Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Just now, Sajochi said: Operates like a spector. So it fights, cast abilities, etc. It shouldn't have too much survivability. You get a battle buddy but you can't tell it what to do. That would make the augment not unique then, that would seem just like any other Spector we have in-game, has to be different from the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 @Sajochi and @xXDeadsinxX Okay, so when you take fatal damage while Defy is active, you regain less health in exchange for a Wukong clone to spawn wielding a basic version of the Iron Staff. Should there be a limit to 5 clones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thefallenloser Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Twilight_Researcher said: I'm actually really in favor of this rework. Wukong could use a bit more to really push himself over what a lot of the other Warframes can offer, and this rework really does promote a thought process that works towards that. Thank you Researcher! Feel free to pitch in more on the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXDeadsinxX Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: @Sajochi and @xXDeadsinxX Okay, so when you take fatal damage while Defy is active, you regain less health in exchange for a Wukong clone to spawn wielding a basic version of the Iron Staff. Should there be a limit to 5 clones? Seems interesting, yeah. 5 clones seems pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajochi Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said: @Sajochi and @xXDeadsinxX Okay, so when you take fatal damage while Defy is active, you regain less health in exchange for a Wukong clone to spawn wielding a basic version of the Iron Staff. Should there be a limit to 5 clones? I like the sound of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDeetheSpy Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) I just watched the Journey to the West 2 movies recently (two different versions) and of everything he did I was like, "Man, that Eyes of Fire showing him the truth of everything... Thats awesome." But I always like spy gameplay. Like I love Void Hunter on Naramon letting me see through walls and just wish it had more range, longer duration, and not having to charge it. Edited March 16, 2018 by DeeDeetheSpy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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