Vauban: My thoughts on his ailing problems in todays Tenno world and my ideas for a rework

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

I thought I might give my own feedback and thoughts on the state of his place in the game and some rekit ideas since I’ve come back to Warframe.  He's always been one of my top 3 frames along with Atlas and my first frame Exacalibur.  Vauban is quite literally the definition of a one trick pony.  His one trick is a strong one trick which has kept him afloat.  He’s not a BAD warframe per say, but honestly he doesn’t feel like a good one right now either.  I keep asking myself the same question whenever I pick him, “does he justify himself over another frame?”,which is something I never had to do 4-5 years ago.

I feel he’s suffering from three main problems:

Power Creep: The best CC is death.  We’ve come along way from the days of normal Soma in 2013.  As someone who just recently came back to the game after a 1.5-2 year hiatus I can say with certainty that weapons have become quite a bit more powerful than they used to be, and that goes for Warframe abilities from new, old, and reworked frames alike.  With those powerful changes the player base has also become more knowledgeable on how to mod and use them.  I can clear entire rooms over and over again with the likes of Mesa and Peacemaker, and the same could be said for my Arca Plasmor, Lenz, Vaykor Hek or any well forma’d gun you could name.  This kind of power creep is especially bad for a one trick frame like Vauban.  Most of his CC is a pure form of CC with no kind of inherent damage or boosts to speak of outside of Minelayer.  CC such as this is devalued the faster we kill.  Things improve as mob levels rise, but not terribly better till about sortie 2-3 level and even then offering pure CC and nothing else isn’t exactly ideal.  He needs more ways to contribute to a fight than what he has now.

Redundant and Gimmicky Kit:  2/3rds of his kit does the same thing-displace mobs or grab them up and hold them in place. 

Tesla’s feel gimped and useless halfway through the star map, and take too much time to set up to useful since you can’t throw just one.  Vortex and Bastille feel far too similar in function to be on the same frame in my opinion, and don’t differentiate themselves enough (the damage on vortex is piddly and not worth mentioning hardly).  Minelayer is just one big massive gimmick that’s attached to the horrible cycle mechanic that’s clunky to use and doesn’t flow well with the pace of the game.  I have this same problem with Ivara.  Ability should be snappy and easy to use.  Tripwires doesn’t justify itself enough outside some extremely niche uses that only seem useful at first, until you realize that you could just as easily use Bastille or Vortex and be done with it.  And Bounce?  That ability has NEVER been useful since 2013, outside the initial “lulz” factor.  The other 2 (Concuss and the armor stripper) lack range, and land in the same pitfall as Teslas in that they require relying on the same bad enemy pathing and fall off greatly when the mobs actually start to fight back. 

At the end of the day the amount of pure CC he has in his kit just feels unnecessary.  The ammount of other gimmicks he has in his other abilities in turn give off a feeling of not enough piazzas or satisfaction as they should.  He needs more things that feel cohesive, synergize more often and perhaps feel more traditionally engineer class like.

·         Lack of Survivability: This is one that has always struck me as both odd and funny considering the amount of CC he has.  Thematically engineer classes in other games tend to be heartier and tankier characters.  You sacrifice a bit of your damage for more tankiness and utility.  Vauban however seems to blow over in stiff wind as his passive doesn’t do enough to alleviate this.  I’ve seen the argument before that he shouldn’t have defense because he has CC.  That argument to me doesn’t hold water because there are plenty of other frames with good CC like Vauban (Rhino Stomp, Frost Avalanche/Ice Wave, Limbo Statists/Rift etc) and have abilities or raw defense that let them stay alive.  He needs a boost to his survivability.

You compound this with the difficulty of his acquisition and what I see more often than not is people just outright dropping after maxing his level.  This is due in no small part to disappointment in his kit considering all the effort they put in.

The Rework

What I propose to alleviate the above is a rekit.  I feel like he really needs an updated identity: “point defense and utility” in lieu of “CC machine”.  One that feels more engineer like.  I know this runs contrary to a lot of ideas I’ve seen for an updated Vauban.  As I’ve seen suggested more often than not, people pose ideas which revolve around giving him 101 different grenades with status effect.  I feel like this isn’t the right path because one it’s just boring thematically to have a million different versions of what amounts to the same thing, and two it doesn't feel engineer themed enough.  My goals in contrast were to:

1.       Provide utility .

2.       Make him more tanky.

3.       Bring him more towards a traditional engineer theme.

            4.    Reduce the amount redundancy and pure CC in his kit while making his remaining CC options more interesting and useful.

My ideas are as follows:

New Base Stats (Rank 30):

Vauban

Health: 300

Shields: 450

Energy: 225

Armor: 200

Vauban Prime

Health: 300

Shields: 500

Energy: 225

Armor: 300

Passive: Reinforce - An engineer by trade, Vauban gains bonus armor and a reduction to shield recharge delay for every deployable on the field.  Armor also effects shields.

Sidenote: Cap would be 3-5 stacks and stacks would be applied after mods.  Stacks would be worth 100-200 armor and -10% shield recharge delay a piece.  Would fix some of his survivability issues by making him a much heartier warframe.

Starting in reverse order:

4.Tourelle: Deploy a series of 4 Turrets.  Turrets fire explosive rounds and gain increased damage the longer they are out.  Turrets expire whenever they run out of health or ammo.

Sidenote:  So, this would work a little bit different than normal abilities.  Each Turret, rather than having a duration, would have its own set ammo count indicated by a counter on screen.  Turrets would be affected by primary mods and fire rounds with 2-3m explosive range.  Abilities would be used to restore the ammo of the turrets.  This keeps players more engaged in wanting to make their turrets stay out as long as possible to increase their damage, rather than a “set it and forget it” mindset that a limited duration could potentially impose.  Obviously, the turrets could be killed by enemies and would start out with 200-400 ammo or less. 

3. Man-At-Arms: Grants all nearby allies with status resistances, increased reload speed, and melee channeling efficiency.  Nearby Turrets are reloaded with fresh ammo.

+20% Reload Speed

+30% Channeling efficiency

+40-60 Turret ammo

+1 Stack of Status immunity

Sidenote: This would offer him much needed utility to the party with something for guns, melee and defense.  One stack of immunity would disappear immediately upon receiving a status effect.  Subsequent uses would create more stacks with a predetermined cap.  This is also how you would maintain your turrets for longer.  Using this ability combined with his 4 make him more engaged/synergized/active, and less set it and forget it like his current kit is.

2. Bastille: Creates an energy-based containment field in which captives are held suspended in stasis.  Enemies caught in Bastille take increased damage from abilities and have chance of dropping more ammunition.

Sidenote: Operates mostly in the same way as the current Bastille does only its a little more interesting as it provides more utility and damage.  Would have a cap to the amount you could deploy before replacing the next one similar to how Frosts Globe such as 4-6 at a time.  This indeed sort of a nerf as currently you can go spam happy with Bastille, but I believe these changes are beneficial and will make you think more about where you deploy them.  Synergizes well with his new 4 and 1

1. Demolitions: Throw a piercing grenade that explodes shredding armor.  Or hold for a deploy-able mine that draws enemies into a whirlpool, dealing magnetic damage before reaching the center and exploding.

Sidenote:  This removes horrendous cycle mechanic and gives him a little more mobility to his kit like his 3 does.  Grenades would travel like the airburst effect on Corinth, only they would pierce enemies, bounce off surfaces and still explode.  Range of the mines and grenade would be similar to the secondary fire of the Corinth as well.  This gives him options for both heavily armored and shielded units synergizes with his 2. Edited for clarification:  With my "Mine" idea the whirlpool was also supposed to facilitate whirlpool like travel as well.  They ring around in a spiral until reaching the center and then it explodes.  I imagined the mines would have a starting range of 10-20M at Rank 30.  This way you won't have early single units of enemies running up and making them go off prematurely so they can gather more enemies up. 

Augment ideas:

Healing Tower – Tourelle Augment:  Allies that stand by turrets recover health. +15/s health

Field Kit – Man-at-Arms Augment:  Allies under the effect of Man-At-Arms have a 40% chance of having their ability energy refunded on use.

Care Package-Bastille Augment:  Enemies held by Bastille have a 100% chance at additional drops.

Decomissioned Explosives – Demolitions Augment:  Enemies hit by demolitions are disarmed.

This turned out to be a lot longer than I previously intended, but it was something to do to pass the time while perusing indeed.com.  It may not seem like it but I did enjoy Vauban way back when before the power creep and new warframes, but these are my thoughts on him currently as it stands.  It was fun to try my hand at game design, and good time to vent after messing with Vauban for some time now in sorties.  Thoughts? Comments? Feedback?  How do you feel about Vauban these days?

Edit: Section for Alternatives

Alternatives:

Alt Passive. Reinforced: An engineer by trade, Vauban gains bonus armor and shield recharge delay stacks every time he uses an ability.  Taking damage sheds these stacks. Armor now effects shields.

Sidenote: This is the passive I suggested above with caps and everything, but with a decaying mechanic. 

Alt 4.Tourelle: Deploy a series of 4 Turrets.  Tap for a higher fire rate or hold for a slower firing turret.  Turrets fire explosive rounds and gain increased damage the longer they are out.  Turrets expire whenever they run out of health or ammo.

Alt 2. Siege Engine:  Create an energy-based containment field in which captives are held suspended in stasis.  Or hold for a deployable Mine that swirls enemies in a whirlpool of magnetic damage, before reaching the center and exploding.  Enemies caught in Siege Engine take increased damage from abilities and have chance of dropping more ammunition.

Sidenote: Combined as per feedback.  I would think this would now need a lower energy cost than I had previously imagined in the original.

Alt 3. Man-At-Arms: Grants all nearby allies shield restoration, increased reload speed, and melee channeling efficiency.  Nearby Turrets are reloaded with fresh ammo.

Sidenote:  The same as the first suggestion but with a shield restore mechanic instead of status immunity stacks.

Alt 1. Demolition: Throw a piercing grenade that explodes shredding armor.  When thrown into Siege Engine it will destroy it, quadrupling the range.

Sidenote:  The explosion radius of demolitions I imagined would be around 8-10M (enough to hit a crowd of enemies).  With this change it could open up new possibilities such as throwing down Siege Engine and then hitting it with a grenade for the soul purpose of mass debuffing.

Alt-Augment:  Fine-Tuned - Bastille Augment:  Allies that pass-through Bastille gain increased movement abilities for 8 seconds. +40% Bullet Jump +40% Slide

Alt-Augment: Tinkering Ver.1 - Man-At-Arms Augment:  Ammo pickups are converted into the currently held weapon.

Alt-Augment Tinkering Fire Ver.2 - Man-At-Arms Augment:  Grants a 30% chance to restore energy while blocking with a melee weapon.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[TheChaotic1]

Very interesting read, would be kinda cool if he could recover weapon ammo for you and your allies too, no one can do that.

[o.0-]

Just want to make sure I follow with your ideas here:

1. Tesla => Demolitions
2. Minelayer => Bastille
3. Bastille => Man-at-Arms
4. Vortex =>  Tourelle

Interesting, need to think on these myself, as it feels just so much like the TF2 Engineer here at first glance.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

6 minutes ago, o.0- said:

Just want to make sure I follow with your ideas here:

1. Tesla => Demolitions
2. Minelayer => Bastille
3. Bastille => Man-at-Arms
4. Vortex =>  Tourelle

Interesting, need to think on these myself, as it feels just so much like the TF2 Engineer here at first glance.

Essentially.  I know I did it a bit backwords, but I was trying to emphasize the synergy which might have made it more confusing than it needed to be.  I was trying to draw from my past experiences with the engineer class in a lot of games where they tend to have some kind of a pet, with tankiness and utility.

 

32 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Very interesting read, would be kinda cool if he could recover weapon ammo for you and your allies too, no one can do that.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it.  I had previously thought that could be the Man-At-Arms augment, but I wasn't quite sure.

Edited March 16, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[o.0-]

I think that Vauban needs one ability to absorb or draw fire in some way. So looking at his existing abilities the top candidates are transforming Bounce pad into something useful that can be seen through and blocks enemy damage or say have Vortex draw in enemy fire into the Singularity.

With the ideas you suggest, maybe it could be considered to have Bastille absorb fire or the Turrets draw enemy fire with higher aggro.

[Grimmstyler]

Hes got great crowd control with Bastille and Vortex.. 

Tesla seems to be a usual 1st ability due to leveling..

His Minelaying abilities suck.. Concuss is pretty good but the energy cost is high.. Shred is good for infested.. (Tripwire and bounce are basically joker abilities)

Then on top of that placing mines in specific areas makes Vauban's DPS unsurvivable.. Hes really a use weapon type of frame.. So Rifle Amp, Steel Charge, or whatever would work good with him, but [Corrosive Projection] is commonly used.. or [Energy Siphon] to keep up on minelaying.. Then theres always [Rage] or [Hunter Adrenaline] too but with vortex or Bastille that doesnt potentially synergize well..

I use a Xbox controller too, so laying an ability 2 mine (with having to hold to place mine) takes my thumb off the movement stick

But yea.. i think he needs a DPS abilty like a Turret.. There are Spectors.. But they cost resources and going into a Fissure people are unpredictable to exit

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

3 hours ago, o.0- said:

With the ideas you suggest, maybe it could be considered to have Bastille absorb fire or the Turrets draw enemy fire with higher aggro.

I had considered Turrets for that role with possibly scaling with your defense mods. An augment like Atlas' that limits the amount of turrets while beefing up their defenses and provokes mobs could work.

I thought of Bastille absorbing gunfire as well, but it felt too much like a Frost Globe  or Vitrify Wall, and I don't think with Gara and Limbo in the game that we really need a replacement for him through Bastille.

1 hour ago, Grimmstyler said:

I use a Xbox controller too, so laying an ability 2 mine (with having to hold to place mine) takes my thumb off the movement stick

This is one of my biggest beefs with the ability.  Not only that but I have fat finger syndrome and big hands, so I tend to hit the buttons a little hard.  You can already image what happens right?  Rather than something popping out it cycles to another damn mine.  So now I have to recycle all the way through the list to what I want.  I've tried alleviating this with the "Ability Selected" button on R3, and the reversing of long and short button presses in settings with little luck.  That's why I hate, hate, hate, the cycle mechanic on both Vauban and Ivara.  They're the only 2 frames where I have to actively worry about how hard I'm hitting the button. 

Then you chalk that up with the fact the vast majority of the ability is basically useless or extremely niche and it doesn't paint a pretty picture.  For instance I tried making the Armor shred work by tossing it out and then putting a vortex over it, but it has too short of range and doesn't connect with all of them to be even remotely useful.  So then its like yeah........I can do this, or I can save myself the energy and just shoot them in Vortex, and use the excess energy for yet more 3s or 4s that we probably don't even need with all the room deleting stuff flying around :/

1 hour ago, Grimmstyler said:

Then on top of that placing mines in specific areas makes Vauban's DPS unsurvivable.. Hes really a use weapon type of frame.. So Rifle Amp, Steel Charge, or whatever would work good with him, but [Corrosive Projection] is commonly used.. or [Energy Siphon] to keep up on minelaying.. Then theres always [Rage] or [Hunter Adrenaline] too but with vortex or Bastille that doesnt potentially synergize well..

Your echoing a lot of my own personal thoughts at this point lol.  A lot of the abilities I suggested above synergize well with a more weapon use approach while providing a more team oriented approach through utility.  For instance the 1 I suggested would be a one-handed ability like Frosts 1, and would allow you to keep shooting while using it.  The biggest and only true damage ability would come from the turrets, everything else is about utility with a side of damage.

Edited March 16, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[Grimmstyler]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

Your echoing a lot of my own personal thoughts at this point lol.  A lot of the abilities I suggested above synergize well with a more weapon use approach while providing a more team oriented approach through utility.  For instance the 1 I suggested would be a one-handed ability like Frosts 1, and would allow you to keep shooting while using it.  The biggest and only true damage ability would come from the turrets, everything else is about utility with a side of damage.

I was hoping with Vauban's Graxx Skin he would have a backpack, and a tube like thing connected to the backpack that shoots out the mines like "the Predator's gun".. having no tax on his weapon firing

Edited March 16, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

9 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

I was hoping with Vauban's Graxx Skin he would have a backpack, and a tube like thing connected to the backpack that shoots out the mines like "the Predator's gun".. having no tax on his weapon firing

If I had enough platinum I would've bought the skin myself, but I opted for Nsaru Syandana and a few augments for syndicates I hadn't leveled yet.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

14 hours ago, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

I thought I might give my own feedback and thoughts on the state of his place in the game and some rekit ideas since I’ve come back to Warframe.  He's always been one of my top 3 frames along with Atlas and my first frame Exacalibur.  Vauban is quite literally the definition of a one trick pony.  His one trick is a strong one trick which has kept him afloat.  He’s not a BAD warframe per say, but honestly he doesn’t feel like a good one right now either.  I keep asking myself the same question whenever I pick him, “does he justify himself over another frame?”,which is something I never had to do 4-5 years ago.

I feel he’s suffering from three main problems:

Power Creep: The best CC is death.  We’ve come along way from the days of normal Soma in 2013.  As someone who just recently came back to the game after a 1.5-2 year hiatus I can say with certainty that weapons have become quite a bit more powerful than they used to be, and that goes for Warframe abilities from new, old, and reworked frames alike.  With those powerful changes the player base has also become more knowledgeable on how to mod and use them.  I can clear entire rooms over and over again with the likes of Mesa and Peacemaker, and the same could be said for my Arca Plasmor, Lenz, Vaykor Hek or any well forma’d gun you could name.  This kind of power creep is especially bad for a one trick frame like Vauban.  Most of his CC is a pure form of CC with no kind of inherent damage or boosts to speak of outside of Minelayer.  CC such as this is devalued the faster we kill.  Things improve as mob levels rise, but not terribly better till about sortie 2-3 level and even then offering pure CC and nothing else isn’t exactly ideal.  He needs more ways to contribute to a fight than what he has now.

Redundant and Gimmicky Kit:  2/3rds of his kit does the same thing-displace mobs or grab them up and hold them in place. 

Tesla’s feel gimped and useless halfway through the star map, and take too much time to set up to useful since you can’t throw just one.  Vortex and Bastille feel far too similar in function to be on the same frame in my opinion, and don’t differentiate themselves enough (the damage on vortex is piddly and not worth mentioning hardly).  Minelayer is just one big massive gimmick that’s attached to the horrible cycle mechanic that’s clunky to use and doesn’t flow well with the pace of the game.  I have this same problem with Ivara.  Ability should be snappy and easy to use.  Tripwires doesn’t justify itself enough outside some extremely niche uses that only seem useful at first, until you realize that you could just as easily use Bastille or Vortex and be done with it.  And Bounce?  That ability has NEVER been useful since 2013, outside the initial “lulz” factor.  The other 2 (Concuss and the armor stripper) lack range, and land in the same pitfall as Teslas in that they require relying on the same bad enemy pathing and fall off greatly when the mobs actually start to fight back. 

At the end of the day the amount of pure CC he has in his kit just feels unnecessary.  The ammount of other gimmicks he has in his other abilities in turn give off a feeling of not enough piazzas or satisfaction as they should.  He needs more things that feel cohesive, synergize more often and perhaps feel more traditionally engineer class like.

·         Lack of Survivability: This is one that has always struck me as both odd and funny considering the amount of CC he has.  Thematically engineer classes in other games tend to be heartier and tankier characters.  You sacrifice a bit of your damage for more tankiness and utility.  Vauban however seems to blow over in stiff wind as his passive doesn’t do enough to alleviate this.  I’ve seen the argument before that he shouldn’t have defense because he has CC.  That argument to me doesn’t hold water because there are plenty of other frames with good CC like Vauban (Rhino Stomp, Frost Avalanche/Ice Wave, Limbo Statists/Rift etc) and have abilities or raw defense that let them stay alive.  He needs a boost to his survivability.

You compound this with the difficulty of his acquisition and what I see more often than not is people just outright dropping after maxing his level.  This is due in no small part to disappointment in his kit considering all the effort they put in.

The Rework

What I propose to alleviate the above is a rekit.  I feel like he really needs an updated identity: “point defense and utility” in lieu of “CC machine”.  One that feels more engineer like.  I know this runs contrary to a lot of ideas I’ve seen for an updated Vauban.  As I’ve seen suggested more often than not, people pose ideas which revolve around giving him 101 different grenades with status effect.  I feel like this isn’t the right path because one it’s just boring thematically to have a million different versions of what amounts to the same thing, and two it doesn't feel engineer themed enough.  My goals in contrast were to:

1.       Provide utility .

2.       Make him more tanky.

3.       Bring him more towards a traditional engineer theme.

            4.    Reduce the amount redundancy and pure CC in his kit while making his remaining CC options more interesting and useful.

My ideas are as follows:

New Base Stats (Rank 30):

Vauban

Health: 300

Shields: 450

Energy: 225

Armor: 200

Vauban Prime

Health: 300

Shields: 500

Energy: 225

Armor: 300

Passive: Reinforce - An engineer by trade, Vauban gains 200 bonus armor and -%10 shield recharge delay for every deployable on the field.  Armor also effects shields.

Sidenote: cap would be 3-5 stacks.  Would fix some of his survivability issues by making him a much heartier warframe.

Starting in reverse order:

4.Tourelle: Deploy a series of 4 Turrets.  Turrets fire explosive rounds and gain increased damage the longer they are out.  Turrets expire whenever they run out of health or ammo.

Sidenote:  So, this would work a little bit different than normal abilities.  Each Turret, rather than having a duration, would have its own set ammo count indicated by a counter on screen.  Turrets would be affected by primary mods and fire rounds with 2-3m explosive range.  Abilities would be used to restore the ammo of the turrets.  This keeps players more engaged in wanting to make their turrets stay out as long as possible to increase their damage, rather than a “set it and forget it” mindset that a limited duration could potentially impose.  Obviously, the turrets could be killed by enemies and would start out with 200-400 ammo or less. 

3. Man-At-Arms: Grants all nearby allies with status resistances, increased reload speed, and melee channeling efficiency.  Nearby Turrets are reloaded with fresh ammo.

+20% Reload Speed

+30% Channeling efficiency

+40-60 Turret ammo

+1 Stack of Status immunity

Sidenote: This would offer him much needed utility to the party with something for guns, melee and defense.  One stack of immunity would disappear immediately upon receiving a status effect.  Subsequent uses would create more stacks with a predetermined cap.  This is also how you would maintain your turrets for longer.  Using this ability combined with his 4 make him more engaged/synergized/active, and less set it and forget it like his current kit is.

2. Bastille: Creates an energy-based containment field in which captives are held suspended in stasis.  Enemies caught in Bastille take increased damage from abilities and have chance of dropping more ammunition.

Sidenote: Operates mostly in the same way as the current Bastille does only its a little more interesting as it provides more utility and damage.  Would have a cap to the amount you could deploy before replacing the next one similar to how Frosts Globe such as 4-6 at a time.  This indeed sort of a nerf as currently you can go spam happy with Bastille, but I believe these changes are beneficial and will make you think more about where you deploy them.  Synergizes well with his new 4 and 1

1. Demolitions: Throw a piercing grenade that explodes shredding armor.  Or hold for a deploy-able mine that draws enemies into a whirlpool, dealing magnetic damage before reaching the center and exploding.

Sidenote:  This removes horrendous cycle mechanic and gives him a little more mobility to his kit like his 3 does.  Grenades would travel like the airburst effect on Corinth, only they would pierce enemies, bounce off surfaces and still explode.  Range of the mines and grenade would be similar to the secondary fire of the Corinth as well.  This gives him options for both heavily armored and shielded units synergizes with his 2.

Augment ideas:

Healing Tower – Tourelle Augment:  Allies that stand by turrets recover health. +15/s health

Field Kit – Man-at-Arms Augment:  Allies under the effect of Man-At-Arms have a 40% chance of having their ability energy refunded on use.

Care Package-Bastille Augment:  Enemies held by Bastille have a 100% chance at additional drops.

Decomissioned Explosives – Demolitions Augment:  Enemies hit by demolitions are disarmed.

This turned out to be a lot longer than I previously intended, but it was something to do to pass the time while perusing indeed.com.  It may not seem like it but I did enjoy Vauban way back when before the power creep and new warframes, but these are my thoughts on him currently as it stands.  It was fun to try my hand at game design, and good time to vent after messing with Vauban for some time now in sorties.  Thoughts? Comments? Feedback?  How do you feel about Vauban these days?

It pleases me to see other Vauban enthusiasts!

one thing I would suggest is make it so bastille was a two part ability, tap throws out bastile while holding throws out vortex because what I’m getting from demolitionist is a weaker vortex on the hold down function

[Panser_Nes]

As a long time vauban player (300+ hours on him) this was a very fresh take on a rework for him, your ideas seems very well thought out.

I love his new 3 especially.

However, with the Bastille augment I feel he would be able to do a bit too much, effectively overshadowing a couple other frames.

Limiting the number of Bastilles out at once is an easy fix to how easy it is to use for how important it is. And is ultimately a good thing for him.

Also, I imagine him to be a bit trickier to mod for, now that Power Strength is suddenly very viable, but it is a minor complaint.

And if I could add another suggestion to yours? I would suggest allowing the Vortex implosion thingy (1) to be thrown (and stick) to his Bastille, sucking everyone currently caught by Bastille to the point the grenade hit. Perhaps it would be a bit too strong, but would be fun.

[MasterControl]

I would honestly consider making Bastille and vortex the same power. Tap/hold, ect ect. Opens up a slot for an engineer-like ability, which could be the turrets you're looking for.

[-CoCo-MercurialKara]

I would 100% support this rework. Putting Bastille on 2 would take some getting used to, though.

Also, I would want the shred grenade to remove more than 40% of the enemy's armor before mods. I don't like needing 250% power strength to make it useful at high levels.

[jfhsanseiIII]

Interesting.  I like the idea of frames having abilities that boost other frames.  I still kind of like the grenade wheel though, but that is just my personal preference.  I don't think I would cry over a change that made it function better.  Definitely agree with the turrets though.  That is something I have been pushing for ages.

[BigPapiPimp]

On 3/15/2018 at 9:00 PM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

+40-60 Turret ammo

Great work +1! I especially like the idea of getting turrets.

That said you also have a way to repair and reload existing turrets, how long do you intend them to be there?

I ask because you could make them quick and dirty to place while having their lifespans short, effectively making them battlements on the fly that you won’t feel bad ditching.

or they could be much more permanent, able to keep up indefinitely with the proper attention, playing tower defense basically.

And what’s the RPS? How much dakka?

Edited March 17, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[Huanthus]

I really like your suggestions, i made mine not as a rework (since that  seems to scare DE off)  but as a QoL change as stated here:

its a bit different of what i said on my post (maybe better phrased)  but i'd  change the passive like this:

Passive: Applies to mechanical companions (Sentinels and Pet Moas), also provide a self repair bonus to him an the mechanical companions on the party (fits the engeneer roll better). 

I can understand that the  hold to release ability is clunky but how about this? changing the mines place them on your hand to be thrown as a hand grenade with the LMB replacing your current weapon and you go back to your weapon pressing F as if it was any other weapon on the game allowing  the successive use of abilites like that on a simpler manner, i do like multilayered abiilites but is really hard to use them fast on a fast paced game such as WF.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 3/16/2018 at 2:07 PM, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

It pleases me to see other Vauban enthusiasts!

 

On 3/16/2018 at 3:56 PM, Practical_Tomato said:

As a long time vauban player (300+ hours on him) this was a very fresh take on a rework for him, your ideas seems very well thought out.

It's so nice to see other Booban players.  It feels like he fly's under the radar so often because not enough people play him.  Outside of myself I rarely see Booban anymore and that makes me sad :/

On 3/16/2018 at 3:56 PM, Practical_Tomato said:

And if I could add another suggestion to yours? I would suggest allowing the Vortex implosion thingy (1) to be thrown (and stick) to his Bastille, sucking everyone currently caught by Bastille to the point the grenade hit. Perhaps it would be a bit too strong, but would be fun.

I made an additional section using feedback for the major changes.  I thought it'd make for better readability then to just start marking up the initial ideas which would make it harder to follow.

On 3/16/2018 at 2:07 PM, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

one thing I would suggest is make it so bastille was a two part ability, tap throws out bastile while holding throws out vortex because what I’m getting from demolitionist is a weaker vortex on the hold down function

 

On 3/16/2018 at 4:08 PM, Mastercontrol98 said:

I would honestly consider making Bastille and vortex the same power. Tap/hold, ect ect. Opens up a slot for an engineer-like ability, which could be the turrets you're looking for.

I wanted to clarify cause I think my wording could've been better, but the idea behind the mines on the "1" wasn't necessarily a Vortex like mine.  Currently, when Vortex grabs enemies up they travel in a straight line and are held there.  With my "Mine" idea the whirlpool was also supposed to facilitate whirlpool like travel as well.  They ring around in a spiral until reaching the center and then it explodes.  I imagined the mines would have a starting range of 10-20M at Rank 30.  This way you won't have early single units of enemies running up and making them go off prematurely so they can gather more enemies up.  The idea also behind putting it on the one was that the 1 is going to have a lower energy cost than the 2.  This makes the mines more spammable than the 2 (which should have a higher energy cost) albeit with restraints to how many you can have up at one time.

Anywho I did make the additions up above.

 

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 3/17/2018 at 12:13 AM, BigPapiPimp said:

Great work +1! I especially like the idea of getting turrets.

That said you also have a way to repair and reload existing turrets, how long do you intend them to be there?

I ask because you could make them quick and dirty to place while having their lifespans short, effectively making them battlements on the fly that you won’t feel bad ditching.

or they could be much more permanent, able to keep up indefinitely with the proper attention, playing tower defense basically.

And what’s the RPS? How much dakka?

Thanks glad you like it!  The idea was that with the ramping up damage it would encourage people to micromanage them and make them want to stay up, without punishing the quick and dirty method that you mentioned too much.  Either way the possibility of people just setting and forgetting the turrets or any turret like ability is always going to be a possibility regardless if it has the ammo method I suggested or not.  The idea is to discourage that with positive reinforcement and number buffs.  So yeah in way it becomes a little mini-tower defense game with your 3 if you want to maximize your damage.  You want to keep them up for as long as there is need to be in that particular area before moving on to the next thing which should in theory make him more of an active warframe.  However if people want to pump and dump thats still an option. 

15 hours ago, Huanthus said:

I can understand that the  hold to release ability is clunky but how about this? changing the mines place them on your hand to be thrown as a hand grenade with the LMB replacing your current weapon and you go back to your weapon pressing F as if it was any other weapon on the game allowing  the successive use of abilites like that on a simpler manner, i do like multilayered abiilites but is really hard to use them fast on a fast paced game such as WF.

Well the idea with mine is that it was supposed to be a one-handed ability that you could still use while shooting your guns.  I like your passive idea and had considered it for mine, but I felt like if it effected too many things it would begin to feel too bloated as an ability.  Either I felt like I went ham on my suggestions the best I could because I don't think a number adjustment is really gonna fix the core issues I listed above.

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

Thanks glad you like it!  The idea was that with the ramping up damage it would encourage people to micromanage them and make them want to stay up, without punishing the quick and dirty method that you mentioned too much.  Either way the possibility of people just setting and forgetting the turrets or any turret like ability is always going to be a possibility regardless if it has the ammo method I suggested or not. 

I know booban players hate how his mines work, but what if his turrets got a secondary version as well?

Tap for a cheaper, lighter turret that shoots its load faster but dies quicker and deals less damage not in an AOE. Proto-turrets?

Hold for a bigger and better turret that would reward you for expending more time and energy in it? 

Does this seem like more of a hassle then it’s worth? How would it be balanced?

All turrets could start with one “magazine” of ammo, and a part of reloading/stocking them with more could be the buff you talked about them getting over time? Turrets are destroyed when they’re out of ammo?

This would make the decision clear what/where V-bons gonna set up his base, while rewarding him for defending his pre-planned stronger turrets and providing a sense of loss when he loses/ditches them.

Sorry to just dump my ideas on your thread, but you got my thiniking about the possible turret laced future of our engineer frame. What better place to put them?

Edited March 18, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

Just to be clear, this topic is suggesting Vauban Prime should have 1380 shields with just redirection alone? And 1820 with Primed Vigor and Redirection? 2180 once you slap augur accord on there. That's without overshields.

And when you consider the suggestion of having 300 base armor(that's 50% dr already) +200x(3~5 apparently?) = 600~1000 armor. That's Valkyr level armor, aka Armorframe, just for a passive.

 

That seems a bit silly and not at all necessary or appropriate for Vauban. Vauban is more of a light health&armor frame. Fragile, but powerful defensive CC. If anything, it would make more sense for Vauban to have some way to restore health or shields via mines, but that's getting into healer territory for the so-called "king of crowd control".

The power suggestions seem to be staunchly in line with "damage dealing tank frame", too. Let's not completely throw away a functional warframe for a OP AF DPS tank hybrid.

[BigPapiPimp]

7 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Just to be clear, this topic is suggesting Vauban Prime should have 1380 shields with just redirection alone? And 1820 with Primed Vigor and Redirection? 2180 once you slap augur accord on there. That's without overshields.

And when you consider the suggestion of having 300 base armor(that's 50% dr already) +200x(3~5 apparently?) = 600~1000 armor. That's Valkyr level armor, aka Armorframe, just for a passive.

 

That seems a bit silly and not at all necessary or appropriate for Vauban. Vauban is more of a light health&armor frame. Fragile, but powerful defensive CC. If anything, it would make more sense for Vauban to have some way to restore health or shields via mines, but that's getting into healer territory for the so-called "king of crowd control".

The power suggestions seem to be staunchly in line with "damage dealing tank frame", too. Let's not completely throw away a functional warframe for a OP AF DPS tank hybrid.

I don’t think the numbers themselves are so important when discussing abstract reworks, just the viability of the ideas.

i had the same though when I read over the lines of his new armor and health,

but i really liked his passive ability which would apply armor damage reduction to his shields, thematically and mechanically.

Do you think I’m to off on this? It sounds good to me. It would make him a great sturdy tank CC frame.

I especially like the idea of him being able to increase ammo drops of enemies, make him the more dakka frame!

Edited March 18, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

I can get behind increased ammo drops for sure, but I think having a passive that buffs armor by the number of traps on the field isn't really appropriate, and neither is making vauban a tank.

Having repelling bastille, instead of whatever it does now(wasn't it integrated into bastille ages ago?), add armor damage reduction to shields within it's area of effect would be a very interesting augment and support mechanic, though.

[BigPapiPimp]

5 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I can get behind increased ammo drops for sure, but I think having a passive that buffs armor by the number of traps on the field isn't really appropriate, and neither is making vauban a tank.

Having repelling bastille, instead of whatever it does now(wasn't it integrated into bastille ages ago?), add armor damage reduction to shields within it's area of effect would be a very interesting augment and support mechanic, though.

I agree with the 1st half, but we drift apart at the bastille and tank V-ban scenarios.

Its ok for Vauban to make all shield based frames tanks with an augment, but not himself as a base frame? I would rather see him become tanky singular then make all frames tanky plural.

plus how high is v-bans armor? Would it make his shields that strong? Frost wishes he had that passive.

Edited March 18, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

Because vauban isn't a tank frame. The idea of completely shifting focus on a frame to suit a whim or the frame's hardcore fanbase is never a good idea. If you want a complete rework, with completely different mechanics and a completely different focus, you may as well make a completely new frame.

[BigPapiPimp]

13 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Because vauban isn't a tank frame. The idea of completely shifting focus on a frame to suit a whim or the frame's hardcore fanbase is never a good idea. If you want a complete rework, with completely different mechanics and a completely different focus, you may as well make a completely new frame.

Woah woah woah it wouldn’t shift his focus at all

hes not turning into chroma or rhino, or even Oberon or nezha

He wouldn’t even be half the tank nidus is, if you just had him as a plain stat slab with no 3rd or 4th ability.

its  slight improvement to the usefulness of his shields that would increase his survive-ability.

i think your getting a little ahead of yourself here, or your taking in all the changes presented at once, in a different manner then within the parameters set over our little back and fourth.

I agree vauban shouldn’t becomes tank.

but why do you think that idea should go out the window for an augment his whole team will benefit from, and in a much bigger way then the simple and controllable armor to shields bonus that would be just for himself? And fit him thematically I might dare say a-huh-huh.

Edited March 18, 2018 by BigPapiPimp