Vauban: My thoughts on his ailing problems in todays Tenno world and my ideas for a rework

[NezuHimeSama]

Applying armor to shields? That's a pretty huge shift, and applying that as a passive would absolutely shift Vauban's focus, especially since he already has a pretty substantial armor DR. He could easily get double effective shields or more just from that, it opens up the possibility of arcane guardian applying to shields alongside arcane aegis or arcane barrier, a ton of frames restore shields or grant overshields, shields quickly restore themselves, ect.

The idea behind it working for the team as an augment is that it provides an area control mechanism which is right inline with Vauban himself. It would probably need a counterbalance, such as only the last bastille cast counts for the augment's effect(or maybe apply it to an area around vortex?) but it definitely fits much closer to vauban's CC kit. Everything Vauban drops is about area denial and flow control. Adding a flow control to damage reduction could definitely be an interesting mechanic. Though, on that note, it should probably only apply Vauban's armor to everyone's shields, and possibly at a substantially reduced rate.

[BigPapiPimp]

24 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Applying armor to shields? That's a pretty huge shift, and applying that as a passive would absolutely shift Vauban's focus, especially since he already has a pretty substantial armor DR. He could easily get double effective shields or more just from that, it opens up the possibility of arcane guardian applying to shields alongside arcane aegis or arcane barrier, a ton of frames restore shields or grant overshields, shields quickly restore themselves, ect.

The idea behind it working for the team as an augment is that it provides an area control mechanism which is right inline with Vauban himself. It would probably need a counterbalance, such as only the last bastille cast counts for the augment's effect(or maybe apply it to an area around vortex?) but it definitely fits much closer to vauban's CC kit. Everything Vauban drops is about area denial and flow control. Adding a flow control to damage reduction could definitely be an interesting mechanic. Though, on that note, it should probably only apply Vauban's armor to everyone's shields, and possibly at a substantially reduced rate.

So we can stop alluding to it, vaubon has 100 armor. So no one with the a casual set up is going to quintuple their EHP, or reach any-wear near nidus levels of tank. Or any other frames thought of as tanks.

V-bon will have no damage mitigating abilities either, so he won’t be geared towards self defense. 

he would still however have his CC crowd disruption kit, which would be geared towards area denial.

With end game arcanes, you could choose to go guardian, and it would be a wise choice, with a large reward in EHP. It doesn’t seem out of line, and v-bin couldn’t become a “tank” until end game.

I don’t think a team range DR being added to his kit is as thematic, but you and me may just see Vaubon in different ways. He has no team buffing abilities, they are all geared towards CC and preparation based zoning & damage(? Is that what his grenades & mines do? I never see them).

edit: air quotes

Edited March 18, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

Guardians can be purchased for plat, and aren't especially rare. As arcanes flood in from eidolon farming, the price will drop, and newbies will avoid buying them because they don't understand how armor works but hey it'll still be there for when they smarten up.

Even with 210 armor, that's ~1.7x shields, bringing Vauban up to 170 base shields, more than enough to be a shield tank up until you start to approach end-game. Also, don't forget that Vauban's armor can get up to 175% just from his current passive. Even if that's not multiplied by Steel Fiber(not sure if it is?), that brings it close to 2x. And that doesn't even factor in that we're talking damage reduction, meaning that anything that restores shields is now also twice as effective.

Vauban's gear has: bounce pads, shock balls, and tripwires, all of which can slow enemies down, bastille which stops enemies in their tracks, and vortex, which ragdolls enemies into a small area. Flow/area control is definitely vauban's kit, and it wouldn't be the first time an augment redirected a frame themed one way into providing party support. Having yet another flow-control, but this time in the form of party support, is absolutely in line with what augments do.

When you combine that all of Vauban's flow control is defensive, outside of the original case of Bastille where it was clearly an offensive type CC more in line with Mag's kit, which the augment then turned into a defensive type skill again, it makes even more sense for Vauban getting a team buff to be a defensive/area control team buff.

 

As an engineer themed frame, I think "building a fortress" is more Vauban than "being a fortress".

Edited March 18, 2018 by NezuHimeSama

[BigPapiPimp]

31 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Guardians can be purchased for plat, and aren't especially rare. As arcanes flood in from eidolon farming, the price will drop, and newbies will avoid buying them because they don't understand how armor works but hey it'll still be there for when they smarten up.

Even with 210 armor, that's ~1.7x shields, bringing Vauban up to 170 base shields, more than enough to be a shield tank up until you start to approach end-game. Also, don't forget that Vauban's armor can get up to 175% just from his current passive. Even if that's not multiplied by Steel Fiber(not sure if it is?), that brings it close to 2x. And that doesn't even factor in that we're talking damage reduction, meaning that anything that restores shields is now also twice as effective.

Vauban's gear has: bounce pads, shock balls, and tripwires, all of which can slow enemies down, bastille which stops enemies in their tracks, and vortex, which ragdolls enemies into a small area. Flow/area control is definitely vauban's kit, and it wouldn't be the first time an augment redirected a frame themed one way into providing party support. Having yet another flow-control, but this time in the form of party support, is absolutely in line with what augments do.

When you combine that all of Vauban's flow control is defensive, outside of the original case of Bastille where it was clearly an offensive type CC more in line with Mag's kit, which the augment then turned into a defensive type skill again, it makes even more sense for Vauban getting a team buff to be a defensive/area control team buff.

Your still being a little dishonest about the shield and armor interaction. Why cant he tank now then by just modding health? The EHP would be nearly the same, he just couldn’t naturally regenerate after a fight, which is the strongest effect of such a change that you didn’t bring up oddly.

If your banking your argument on maybe the player based pay wall might lower, then it’s flimsy at best and irrelevant at worst. It’s still locked to late game. People burning their way through plat from the download screen will buy a million other things 1st, like Vauban himself!

its more balanced then him giving 4 people DR, which now at least you admit is not in anyway shape or form a part of his kit. 

Bastille is about as aggressive as a a harrow stun, so sure I’ll give that to you.

I also like how augments can change a warframes to the point of building them towards a different niche, but how “often”? Most of the time they just have a lesser base feature of the ability “augmented” don’t they?

edit: I like the build/be separation. It’s a good point. Though still this would not take him anywhere near being the palisade to his own battlement. This would replace his passive remember?

Edited March 18, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That's a pretty huge shift

Can I ask you then, how much do you hate the idea of turrets? I love them, and am just kind of curious if you think the idea is terrible, or should have another frame made for it instead of going to our engineer.

I think they could replace his Grenada’s.

i only play vauban for them at this point, as a casual, but I wouldn’t mind seeing them go for some lead pumping machines.

it might make me start bringing him back out to the missions I used to take him for a spin in.

[CorpusCrewman]

It's been long discuss since Vauban arrived. We receive our "rework", I think we never got another chance for him again.

[DerrickMathis]

I like this. I've always wanted a damage alternative for Vauban, but his current kit never gave us options outside of CC, CC, and more CC with a splash of gimmicks. Great against infested, but not that great against the other factions, especially not in open areas where he gets smoked by anything with a gun. I don't know if you were around when Tesla Link came out, but that was the only damage alternative Vauban had and it was nerfed beyond practical use.

I will say the added survivability values you listed for the passive are high, but as you stated it's just an abstract. I'm not opposed to his passive working without the help of allies though. I'm guessing the hold function for his one is basically just a pocket vortex. Bastille changes are great and limiting the number of active Bastilles is a solid countermeasure too. His new 3 is useful, not much else to say. The Turrets are fantastic, and honestly something I have wanted to see associated with him for a while. It's energy hungry, but energy is a pretty abundant resource. Saryn's rework got away with that.

Oh yeah - they marketed him as an engineer but he doesn't build anything, which is why I like the turret idea so much. He doesn't even have a buff for other machines and equipment like sentinels. He's a trapper - more closely related to hunters than engineers in other games.

[NezuHimeSama]

17 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

Can I ask you then, how much do you hate the idea of turrets? I love them, and am just kind of curious if you think the idea is terrible, or should have another frame made for it instead of going to our engineer.

I think they could replace his Grenada’s.

i only play vauban for them at this point, as a casual, but I wouldn’t mind seeing them go for some lead pumping machines.

it might make me start bringing him back out to the missions I used to take him for a spin in.

I think it still doesn't flow with is primarily CC kit, unless they're focussed on impact procs and have low damage output. Having turrets that have 1m of punch through and constantly stagger the enemy back in a narrow hallway would be very vauban.

[BigPapiPimp]

1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I think it still doesn't flow with is primarily CC kit, unless they're focussed on impact procs and have low damage output. Having turrets that have 1m of punch through and constantly stagger the enemy back in a narrow hallway would be very vauban.

/s

you dropped this :p

thanks for the reply, right when I open up the forums lol. Perfect timing.

could the deal a low amount of electricity on hit, with a blast aoe? No punch through. still to much?

Would like anyone else who’s watching to phone in too. Leave an opinion on V-ban redhot dakka deployers.

[NezuHimeSama]

why elec damage? Blast would mean longer CC, but less flow control, since enemies aren't being pushed.

[BigPapiPimp]

34 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

why elec damage? Blast would mean longer CC, but less flow control, since enemies aren't being pushed.

Wait, which one are your for or against, or do you like neither damage type as CC?

I just think electricity and blast go well with booban. Doubles as good CC damage types.

Edited March 19, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

I'm thinking more about the mechanics in play.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

21 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I don’t think the numbers themselves are so important when discussing abstract reworks, just the viability of the ideas.

i had the same though when I read over the lines of his new armor and health,

but i really liked his passive ability which would apply armor damage reduction to his shields, thematically and mechanically.

Do you think I’m to off on this? It sounds good to me. It would make him a great sturdy tank CC frame.

I especially like the idea of him being able to increase ammo drops of enemies, make him the more dakka frame!

This is kind of what I meant for when I created this thread.  You'll notice I didn't really put too many hard numbers in any of the suggestions I made for a good reason.  I want people to think about what Vauban could be if he his engineer theme was more reflected in a traditional sense within the Warframe make up, rather than what he is right now which is basically a Bastille bot.  Nay what I really want is for people to start talking about Vauban in general more, because I don't think he's in really awesome spot with the constant power creep that keeps being introduced. 

As for your idea for the Tap/Hold turret change I'll slide that in.  And I really like the idea for his passive too!  That and his 3/4 were the things I was most excited to suggest.  It fits the theme of an engineer building things and benefiting from having things up.  Plus it gives you way, way, way more control over the passive as a whole.

21 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That seems a bit silly and not at all necessary or appropriate for Vauban. Vauban is more of a light health&armor frame. Fragile, but powerful defensive CC. If anything, it would make more sense for Vauban to have some way to restore health or shields via mines, but that's getting into healer territory for the so-called "king of crowd control".

The power suggestions seem to be staunchly in line with "damage dealing tank frame", too. Let's not completely throw away a functional warframe for a OP AF DPS tank hybrid.

For no good reason as I justified in the op above.  There are plenty of other frames who offer CC and have abilities/raw stats etc that they don't completely fold when the going gets tough.  His CC often times isn't enough to survive when your doing stuff where things actually start to fight back some (high level bounties/sortie +/endless lvl100+ etc) as silly as Bastille spam can get.  Which is something I've found weirdly hilarious that you can get 86'd from stray gun fire after "panic-fisting" an entire area with Bastille + augment.  And not only that his actually significant and useful CC is completely vanilla.  Grabbing and holding mobs is about as basic as you can get.  It doesn't justify his current state.  And as for the comment of  "the damage dealing tank frame" you'll notice I didn't include any real hard damaging numbers with any of the abilities.  Its my firm belief that most of these abilities won't really be "press 4 to win" in terms of damage.  However not everyone shares that opinion so I left it open and up in the air. 

21 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Because vauban isn't a tank frame. The idea of completely shifting focus on a frame to suit a whim or the frame's hardcore fanbase is never a good idea. If you want a complete rework, with completely different mechanics and a completely different focus, you may as well make a completely new frame.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  If there's one thing I've learned in the 3 decades I've been playing games its the hardcore/"pro-players"/enthusiasts types that tend to have a better grasp on the meta and how things could be improved vs the more weekend warrior.  It sounds elitist as all get out but its something Ive seen time and time again from hardcore raid guilds to pro-moba teams.  Top down has proven its worth more often then it hasn't in terms of balance.  Its not like the precedence for a reworking based on fan feedback hasn't already been set within warframe itself (for anyone that doesn't remember Excalibur Super Jump as his 2).  What the hardcore players do generally tends to trickle down to everyone else who's willing to put forth the effort when it comes to games with deep customization options.  It's something that happens in MMOs, MOBAs and many other genres where we can play with mods/perks and the numbers.  Warframe is no exception as their are plenty of people who copy builds from streamers/youtubers or play with warframe builder-which was built by one of the hardcore.

 

20 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Also, don't forget that Vauban's armor can get up to 175% just from his current passive.

Vauban's gear has: bounce pads, shock balls, and tripwires, all of which can slow enemies down, bastille which stops enemies in their tracks, and vortex, which ragdolls enemies into a small area. Flow/area control is definitely vauban's kit, and it wouldn't be the first time an augment redirected a frame themed one way into providing party support. Having yet another flow-control, but this time in the form of party support, is absolutely in line with what augments do.

When you combine that all of Vauban's flow control is defensive, outside of the original case of Bastille where it was clearly an offensive type CC more in line with Mag's kit, which the augment then turned into a defensive type skill again, it makes even more sense for Vauban getting a team buff to be a defensive/area control team buff.

 

As an engineer themed frame, I think "building a fortress" is more Vauban than "being a fortress".

 

Are you referring to Vauban's current passive?  Or the one I just came up with?  Because his current one is one of the most gimped in the game for what it offers you.  25% per ally around might sound good on paper until you realize how people actually play warframe.  Its co-opition through and through.  Allies don't stick together anywhere near enough to get the type of up-time you would need to actually benefit from the current passive, which is ranged locked at 20Ms from the nearest ally.  Not to mention currently Vauban doesn't even have the base armor value to make it worthwhile to worry about.  The current one I suggested is definitely an upgrade as it allows you to at least have some modicum of control over it, and perfectly fits with a traditional engineer theme of building things and benefiting from it.  The numbers for which are nowhere near set in stone nor any other numbers I suggested, which is the reason I tried to keep it number light.

As for the other things you listed.  Those are just gimmicks they tacked on long ago when we threw a fit the first time because bounce as an ability was and still is not worth the energy cost-and that goes Minelayer as an ability as well.  His 3 in particular can replace any use-case where Bounce "might" be considered worth it, and the same is true for pretty much the entirety of his kit.  I'm assuming shockballs was nomenclature for Tesla's?  Tesla's haven't really been useful since the first nerf.  Back then they use to chain and were more effective.  Now?  your better off tossing 3 or 4 and shooting your gun, which is a common occurrence.  Teslas? 3 or 4 and shoot your gun. Bounce? 3 or 4 and shoot your gun.  Tripwire? 3 or 4 and shoot your gun.  Concuss mine which doesn't have enough range and relies on bad enemy pathing/AI? 3 or 4 and shoot your gun. Armor shred mine which doesn't have enough range and relies on bad enemy pathing/AI? 3 or 4 and shoot your gun.

And Bastille and Vortex themselves?  They make each other completely redundant and don't differentiate themselves enough (pick mobs up, grab them and hold them).  Its completely unnecessary to have the amount of CC they bring on one frame.  Vortex in its current form feels more like a Mag ability than a booban one.  There'll be other frames in the party with CC options of their own as well.  It just becomes more and more redundant.

I can control the flow of battle pretty well with just his 3 and a 3 forma Arca plasmor sortie+ or lower, basically making 3/4ths of his kit useless.  Because thats the kind of thing that power creep does when what your CC offers a team is very vanilla or can be done better by something else, or in a lot of cases another warframe entirely.   I think the things I've suggested are very much in line with building that fortress that you talked about, and seek to remedy the situation by bringing him closer to a traditional engineer warframe style.  It makes him more active and less passive (throw 3 and shoot stuff).  It allows him to fill a point defense role in a more interesting way by buffing the team, still keeping some of the traps and CC value, trading in pure damage for more party support and utility aspects (and yes being more tanky),and bring a smidgen of damage himself with turrets that need maintenance to be effective. 

With all the power creep going its definitely an option worth exploring,  because his kit definitely needs to change.  This isn't like 2013 anymore.  There isn't room for pure vanilla CC warframe like there was 5 years ago with people constantly deleting rooms full of lvl100+ mobs.

Edited March 19, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

7 hours ago, DerrickMathis said:

I like this. I've always wanted a damage alternative for Vauban, but his current kit never gave us options outside of CC, CC, and more CC with a splash of gimmicks. Great against infested, but not that great against the other factions, especially not in open areas where he gets smoked by anything with a gun. I don't know if you were around when Tesla Link came out, but that was the only damage alternative Vauban had and it was nerfed beyond practical use.

I will say the added survivability values you listed for the passive are high, but as you stated it's just an abstract. I'm not opposed to his passive working without the help of allies though. I'm guessing the hold function for his one is basically just a pocket vortex. Bastille changes are great and limiting the number of active Bastilles is a solid countermeasure too. His new 3 is useful, not much else to say. The Turrets are fantastic, and honestly something I have wanted to see associated with him for a while. It's energy hungry, but energy is a pretty abundant resource. Saryn's rework got away with that.

Oh yeah - they marketed him as an engineer but he doesn't build anything, which is why I like the turret idea so much. He doesn't even have a buff for other machines and equipment like sentinels. He's a trapper - more closely related to hunters than engineers in other games.

Glad you like it!  I was indeed around before the Tesla nerf.  They haven't really been useful since, which goes for the "Minelayer" rework they did to Bounce way back when too.  Now its just spam 3 and shoot.  It feels far too passive, and there isn't enough engineer like things going on in his kit.  As for the bolded yeah, none of the numbers I listed are really set in stone.  Its just something to get people thinking.  I think a more traditional style engineer would really work for Booban and warframe in general.

[BigPapiPimp]

13 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I'm thinking more about the mechanics in play.

What are you thinking about them? I couldn’t decipher it from your post other then maybe you think they won’t overlap properly?

If an electric proc is lost once or twice it’s no biggie, it will still spread to more people then the blast. Their both just damage types associated with vauban (his grenades for lightning, all his other ones for blast).

[NezuHimeSama]

I don't think Vauban really has an element, rather the elements used are just there because they work for the abilities provided. Vauban used to be a huge Magentic frame back when bounce pads did magnetic damage, and could be stacked in enemy spawns to spawnkill on Interception missions, but I don't really think turrets should deal Magnetic damage.

Rather, unless it's changed since I last bothered with an Impact build, Impact staggers enemies backwards a few steps, whereas Elec and Blast both stop them dead. I think staggering enemies back would present interesting flow control opportunities. Maybe even add a bit of push on each hit for enemies that don't stagger.

[Peator]

17 hours ago, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

And Bastille and Vortex themselves?  They make each other completely redundant and don't differentiate themselves enough (pick mobs up, grab them and hold them).  Its completely unnecessary to have the amount of CC they bring on one frame.  Vortex in its current form feels more like a Mag ability than a booban one.  There'll be other frames in the party with CC options of their own as well.  It just becomes more and more redundant.

Pls no not my grav.

As another Vauban player, I can say that Bastille and Vortex distinguish themselves enough for Vortex to remain an ability. I see Bastille as a defensive option, that allows for cheesing of Excavation and Mobile Defense, whereas Vortex is offense designed for quick room clearing. What makes Vortex as useful as Bastille is that by nature a grav effect is very powerful in any game. Grouping up enemies together allows for AoE weapons to become stronger than normal, compared to holding enemies in random locations. Punch through is also very synergistic with Vortex, and allows for fast group clearing if your range is high enough. 

Vortex also has the strength of being capable to hold an unlimited number of enemies (I may be wrong on this). This allows for mass cc of more enemies than Bastille. However, Bastille is more spammable than Vortex to make up for it.

Bastille is an ability where locking down areas more so than Vortex. You're not really supposed to use Bastille to kill enemies. You can, but Bastille functions in order to keep enemies away from a target around a radius. This is different from Vortex in that Bastille has a much higher range than Vortex, and can be used to defend an objective much more effectively than Vortex.

In short, Bastille is a defensive ability designed to be spammable and to lock down a radius, paying no attention to whether enemies are dying or not. Vortex is an offensive ability designed to allow for quick clearing of enemies using AoE and punch through effects. They are separate abilities that in my opinion distinguish themselves enough to warrant both of them staying around. I heard somewhere that a solution would be to make them the same ability, using a wheel to select which one, like minelayer. Although clunky, Vauban doesn't really need to switch between the two abilities very often so it shouldn't hinder him.

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I don't think Vauban really has an element, rather the elements used are just there because they work for the abilities provided. Vauban used to be a huge Magentic frame back when bounce pads did magnetic damage, and could be stacked in enemy spawns to spawnkill on Interception missions, but I don't really think turrets should deal Magnetic damage.

Rather, unless it's changed since I last bothered with an Impact build, Impact staggers enemies backwards a few steps, whereas Elec and Blast both stop them dead. I think staggering enemies back would present interesting flow control opportunities. Maybe even add a bit of push on each hit for enemies that don't stagger.

I’m not saying he’s ember, but I’d look twice if he let out some gas or cold procs.

lightning and blast fit best for the effects of his abilities is closer to what I meant.

i never played him for his pads before or after their nerf, so idk I guess I missed out.

only ever used him to spam tesla’s. Sometimes I’d give him a serious go in infested missions and use his 3 & 4 though.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

Elec, blast, and impact are CC procs, and all fit with Vauban's CC theme. Cold actually wouldn't be bad, though, with the slow, or heat for it's panic proc.

Really, though, Vauban has never had an elemental theme.

[BigPapiPimp]

1 minute ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Elec, blast, and impact are CC procs, and all fit with Vauban's CC theme. Cold actually wouldn't be bad, though, with the slow, or heat for it's panic proc.

Really, though, Vauban has never had an elemental theme.

Cold wouldn’t be bad, but I just don’t see it as apart of his abilities, or his aesthetic.

Blast damage is dealt by his all his abilities, while electricity is the entire visual effect of his 1, even the augments slash damage is dealt by seemingly electric tethers.

impact is done by his bounce mine, and wouldn’t look out of place, so I could see that being a substitute for the electric damage, but blast is for sure his dominante damage type.

[NezuHimeSama]

Don't the bounce mines deal magnetic? They certainly used to.

Like I said, Vauban just doesn't have any kind of elemental theme. It isn't like frost, ember, or saryn.

[BigPapiPimp]

6 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Don't the bounce mines deal magnetic? They certainly used to.

Like I said, Vauban just doesn't have any kind of elemental theme. It isn't like frost, ember, or saryn.

I never said they didn’t

i agreed with you he is not ember ^

doesnt mean his bastille and vortex dealing toxin damage would look right, given the lore/image they have given him.

if he had a different history of changes and abilities I might agree with you that anything goes, but unless they give him a chemical gas mine, gas damage would look out of place on him.

blast is dealt by all his abilities, and fit his version/employment of CC better.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

In short he is not the elemental blast frame, but his abilities all deal blast damage, and the CC effect of blast fit his abilities, their image, and his own personal style much better then any other type of damage, and are already implemented in each and every one of his abilities, 1-4.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

But Impact makes perfect sense for the ability in question, that being a turret that pushes enemies around.

[BigPapiPimp]

9 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

But Impact makes perfect sense for the ability in question, that being a turret that pushes enemies around.

I agreed a few posts up that the projectiles damage could be impact over my idea for it to be elecricity, but I think it should still deal blast somehow, it’s an emplanted turret!

If not initially as its projectile damage then maybe as a subsequent on hit AOE effect, as OP suggested.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp