Vauban: My thoughts on his ailing problems in todays Tenno world and my ideas for a rework

[NezuHimeSama]

Yeah, but what do turrets shoot? Boolets. Impact just makes a lot more sense, and vauban has better stuff in his kit suited to a blast proc.

I could see as an augmet dealing an aoe blast instead of impact, but I don't see how it's really necessary at the core.

[BigPapiPimp]

25 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Yeah, but what do turrets shoot? Boolets. Impact just makes a lot more sense, and vauban has better stuff in his kit suited to a blast proc.

I could see as an augmet dealing an aoe blast instead of impact, but I don't see how it's really necessary at the core.

I mean, we got ray guns. It could be little scifi packets of explosive energy for all I know!

pumping lead is funner though I’ll concede.

Can we agree that we both want booban to claim his title as lord of dakka though? We’re a couple pages deep and metal throwing auto turrets would be sick as one of his abilities.

[NezuHimeSama]

I think Vauban should be whatever makes him an interesting CC/engineering themed frame. I don't have any particular interest in doing that one way or another, but I think the less changes made/the least amount of effort by DE to do that is best, especially since more "out there" ideas could easily be put towards new warframes.

[BigPapiPimp]

10 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I think Vauban should be whatever makes him an interesting CC/engineering themed frame. I don't have any particular interest in doing that one way or another, but I think the less changes made/the least amount of effort by DE to do that is best, especially since more "out there" ideas could easily be put towards new warframes.

I agree with the sentiment to keep booban boobon, but his Tesla are already a little like crappy turrets.

So we return to the start of the conversation, do you think our engineer frame should get turrets, or that the idea should be given to a new frame, or do you dislike the idea of turrets as a warframe ability in general?

Btw did anyone else get their own ideas for V-ban since the start of this thread?

I really love laying down mines and traps in other games, but his mines just don’t do it for me, I never use them.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[NezuHimeSama]

I'm not opposed to vauban getting  this, since some of his kit honestly feels a bit redundant. I also wouldn't be opposed to a new frame getting turrets, or even a complementary engineering themed frame getting a similar themed kit that does very different things in practice.

[BigPapiPimp]

10 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I'm not opposed to vauban getting  this, since some of his kit honestly feels a bit redundant. I also wouldn't be opposed to a new frame getting turrets, or even a complementary engineering themed frame getting a similar themed kit that does very different things in practice.

Ok neato, unwarranted engineer frame idea: a smaller female vauban, who’s gadgets do nothing but self buff her surviveability and primary/secondary weapon damage, Oh wait Mes-... oh well. 

Are mines strong? Would laying multiple mines over an area per cast break the ability? They don’t feel super impactful...or wanted or needed generally. I do like them though and am glad they exist in the game, even if I don’t happen to find them very useful or rewarding in their current form.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

59 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

necessary at the core.

I mean, why do his other abilities even exist then? He has a 3 and an augment...

What more could be needed? He could even through down his gun and become a potato farmer, his fence up and protecting his crops from the infested.

[NezuHimeSama]

Different types of flow control.

[BigPapiPimp]

45 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Different types of flow control.

Flow control?

do you mean enemies spawn rates

[NezuHimeSama]

No I mean flow control. Controlling how enemies move and where.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

9 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I agree with the sentiment to keep booban boobon, but his Tesla are already a little like crappy turrets.

So we return to the start of the conversation, do you think our engineer frame should get turrets, or that the idea should be given to a new frame, or do you dislike the idea of turrets as a warframe ability in general?

Btw did anyone else get their own ideas for V-ban since the start of this thread?

I really love laying down mines and traps in other games, but his mines just don’t do it for me, I never use them.

The plan is working.........mwahahahaha. 

Unfortunately because of the fast pace nature of the game laying down traps is just not as effective as debuffing/buffing/self-buffing/killing/CCing etc.  Smaller tile-sets with more predictable pathing helps.  However, the future of the game seems to be in more open maps/open tile-sets/less cramped spaces where "setting up" can be difficult combined with the unpredictability of AI pathing.  Seriously screw Grineer/Corpus trying to turn around and hide when the objective is 5 feet in front of them.  Just run to your damn doom already christ...

 

11 hours ago, CaptainDreafy said:

Pls no not my grav.

As another Vauban player, I can say that Bastille and Vortex distinguish themselves enough for Vortex to remain an ability. I see Bastille as a defensive option, that allows for cheesing of Excavation and Mobile Defense, whereas Vortex is offense designed for quick room clearing. What makes Vortex as useful as Bastille is that by nature a grav effect is very powerful in any game. Grouping up enemies together allows for AoE weapons to become stronger than normal, compared to holding enemies in random locations. Punch through is also very synergistic with Vortex, and allows for fast group clearing if your range is high enough. 

Vortex also has the strength of being capable to hold an unlimited number of enemies (I may be wrong on this). This allows for mass cc of more enemies than Bastille. However, Bastille is more spammable than Vortex to make up for it.

Bastille is an ability where locking down areas more so than Vortex. You're not really supposed to use Bastille to kill enemies. You can, but Bastille functions in order to keep enemies away from a target around a radius. This is different from Vortex in that Bastille has a much higher range than Vortex, and can be used to defend an objective much more effectively than Vortex.

In short, Bastille is a defensive ability designed to be spammable and to lock down a radius, paying no attention to whether enemies are dying or not. Vortex is an offensive ability designed to allow for quick clearing of enemies using AoE and punch through effects. They are separate abilities that in my opinion distinguish themselves enough to warrant both of them staying around. I heard somewhere that a solution would be to make them the same ability, using a wheel to select which one, like minelayer. Although clunky, Vauban doesn't really need to switch between the two abilities very often so it shouldn't hinder him.

Your not wrong.  Vortex is unlimited as far as I've ever seen. 

As for the first part of your post its not the grabbing part that I don't agree with in Vortex its the holding them part.  It really does feel like it could potentially be a replacement for Mags 1 in its current incarnation. What would be better is a mine that not only grabbed the enemies but shredded any shields they have.  It would wing them around in a spiral fashion before arriving at the center, exploding and knocking them down.  That to me feels more engineer like which is why I included a mine that carried the spirit of vortex with a much lower energy cost.  You could then hit them with Bastille if you really wanted to hold them in place.  Thats assuming you haven't already killed them yet with your gun.   

As for your comparison between Bastille and Vortex I disagree on that one.  Vortex is definitely the more defensive ability in my opinion.  The reason being is that with Bastille you can control the range both through positive and negative range builds.  I don't know how much experience you have dialing in a spare Narrow Minded, but its very effective.  You can make cute little Bastilles that are more effective in much more compact tile sets like Corpus/Grineer ships.  Mini-Bastilles afford more control in tighter spaces because you can see just how much stuff you've picked up, and you won't miss stuff that could've been picked up and is hiding around the corner.  So I can throw my smaller Bastilles with lower energy cost  in front of or into incoming groups, or wherever they're coming from and go ham with Arca Plasmor.

Vortex however, to me, feels like the more defensive ability because the range is too short for it to be used offensively.  If you have good guns and you toss it out in the middle of a crowd or right in front of it there's a high chance you or your team mates will have everything dead before Vortex can finish its job (although to be fair this can happen with Bastille as well).  Such is the nature of power creep :/.  Therefor, in my opinion, it behooves you to place it in defensive positions where you can maximize its effectiveness such as the entrances to rooms or small paths leading to and around an defense objective if there is one.  Coincidentally my mine option works wonders for that!

In the end though you could also just replace using Vortex altogether and just put your 3 wherever you'd put Vortex, and continue to use Bastille offensively because there's no limit to how many you can have out. That's just how good/versatile Bastille is for him that it can completely overshadow his entire kit. 

The ultimate goal of my rework was to get away from this.  Because of the nature of horde games and the way people play this game there's five main ways people can play this game in a team environment:

1. Debuff Mobs

2. Buff Self/Team Mates

3. Kill Stuff

4.  CC enemies

5. Survive

The problem Vauban suffers from is that so many frames already have 4 and can do it to comparable levels as Vauban can while offering lots of 1,2,3, 5 in varying amounts. This is compounded by the fact that Vauban himself suffers from too much of 4 and is anemic in all the others.  So when you mix in power creep and consider all of the above it makes for a very unattractive proposition in the current climate of the game.  There are times, more often than not since I came back to the game last November, where I place my 3 or my 4 in defensive positions around an objective and they never get to touch many if any mobs at all unless I start throwing them into groups.

Its not just Vauban either!  There are other older frames too such as Nyx that are starting to suffer from the power creep and aging kits as well .  Honestly because of the prevalence of so many frames kits having good amounts of number 4 (such as Atlas' new Petrify, seriously that S#&$ is dynamite now) while offering other things, power creep as well, its my firm opinion that there is no longer any room in the game for a frame who's soul claim to fame is CC and nothing else.  At least in the current trajectory of the game.  You need to bring more to the table and I don't think moving Vauban toward that goal is asking a lot.

Sorry,  I know this got a little long winded but when its something I feel passionately about I like to talk about it lol

Edited March 20, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[BigPapiPimp]

21 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

No I mean flow control. Controlling how enemies move and where.

Ah gotcha you mean the flow of enemy movement. sorry, “the flow” was too vague for me -_-. Yeah I agree, but I don’t think his 1 & 2 do this respectably any more.

Edited March 21, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

Edited with a few more additions to the alternatives section.  Happy holidays everyone.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

I like vortex, massssssive no on replacing it in any fashion as its his best ability.

Bastlle i feel is good too.

Minelayer is a bag of garbage overall.

Tesla just needs a flat status increase, to 50 or 100%, then its very useful.

 

Overall this is waaaay to heavy handed a rework.

Edited April 3, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[Shad0wWatcher]

When you mentioned that Vortex does damage i honest to god raised an eyebrow with the thought "Vortex does damage?"

[KnightCole]

LOL, your very first point is what ive been saying all along: "Best CC is death"

Its why I think a majority of the CC Frames, like Vauban and Rhino SUCK.  Sure, they hold the mobs in place, but it'd be better if you could just kill them, or deal some degree of damage.

Vauban should get Void squeeze type abilities, when the enemies are in the big web thing, they have electricity running through them, causing electric procs and shock damage per second.  Buff the hell out of his thrown mines to be more like hand grenades or something. 

[CorpusCrewman]

I got some idea. How about one of abilities can be similar to Nullifier bubble? You drop a sphere and around with range (SphereRange*AbilityRange) it appear a sphere with health (SphereHP*AbilityStrength). It shrinks until health pool is fully depleted (can regenerate like nullifier's bubble?). Bullets cannot penetrate bubble and enemies enter the bubble get proc'd by electricity (with additional damage?). It's synergizes well with dropping it on allies/rescue target/something.

[Shad0wWatcher]

Should Vauban have a deployable ammo cache? Feels like he should.

Also the constant traps we encounter in this game like lasers, those orbs we see in the Void that either send shockwaves or just shoots lasers...why can't Vauban use traps like that? Seems like he should be able to.

That and proper turrets like the ones the corpus have or like the ones in the void that he has to keep repairing whenever it gets damage-waaaait...that sounds familiar...

[Samotte]

Man, I love current Vauban, how he looks, his skills, the fun I have playing him, but man, I absolutely LOVE the first rework suggestion you made! It doesn't remove the engineer feeling of the frame, we keep the bastille (the best Vauban skill which imo should be his ult on the current build), and we even have some team-buff! I'd like DE to see this and take this in consideration, as no warframe is perfect, and all old warframes could need a rework/buff

[NezuHimeSama]

1 hour ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Should Vauban have a deployable ammo cache? Feels like he should.

Also the constant traps we encounter in this game like lasers, those orbs we see in the Void that either send shockwaves or just shoots lasers...why can't Vauban use traps like that? Seems like he should be able to.

That and proper turrets like the ones the corpus have or like the ones in the void that he has to keep repairing whenever it gets damage-waaaait...that sounds familiar...

That would actually be a pretty neat ability. Or maybe make it a passive where allies within X meters get their current weapon refilled by Y% of it's max ammo every Z seconds.

Another thought would be pull floors, like deployable conveyor belts.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 4/18/2018 at 3:11 PM, CorpusCrewman said:

I got some idea. How about one of abilities can be similar to Nullifier bubble? You drop a sphere and around with range (SphereRange*AbilityRange) it appear a sphere with health (SphereHP*AbilityStrength). It shrinks until health pool is fully depleted (can regenerate like nullifier's bubble?). Bullets cannot penetrate bubble and enemies enter the bubble get proc'd by electricity (with additional damage?). It's synergizes well with dropping it on allies/rescue target/something.

This is a neat idea.  However I feel like its a bit to similar to Snow Globe.  Its like a mix of Snow Globe meets Cataclysm.  

On 4/19/2018 at 8:12 AM, Samotte said:

Man, I love current Vauban, how he looks, his skills, the fun I have playing him, but man, I absolutely LOVE the first rework suggestion you made! It doesn't remove the engineer feeling of the frame, we keep the bastille (the best Vauban skill which imo should be his ult on the current build), and we even have some team-buff! I'd like DE to see this and take this in consideration, as no warframe is perfect, and all old warframes could need a rework/buff

Good to hear.  I wanted to do something that kept the engineer feel while moving him more into utility/support rather than utility/CC.

On 4/19/2018 at 7:14 AM, Shad0wWatcher said:

Should Vauban have a deployable ammo cache? Feels like he should.

 

On 4/19/2018 at 8:23 AM, NezuHimeSama said:

That would actually be a pretty neat ability. Or maybe make it a passive where allies within X meters get their current weapon refilled by Y% of it's max ammo every Z

So something like:

Alt 3.  Munitions Depot: Deploy small ammo boxes that allies can pick up.  Using this ability in range of a turret restores partial ammo.

or

Alt Passive. Munitions Depot: Vauban and any allies around him have a chance to return fired ammo to the clip.

I had originally thought of something similar to these, but then with Carrier Prime, ammo pizzas, and ammo mutations it didn't seem quite as useful to anyone except new players.  I suppose though it would offer more choice of pets, and less need to carry the other stuff for bullet hoses.

[BigPapiPimp]

You brought this upon yourself @(PS4)ZeroSection

I had to Try!

 

 

V bon

Passive: Heavy Shields

Vauban applies his damage reduction from armor to his shields. Greater function comes from a better form.

1: Red Metal

Vauban assembles rudimentary battlements with advanced technique and resources. Gallium wired circuitry and argon loaded payloads speak certain death to all that hear.

Cost: 25 energy

Range: 1 meter

Drops a turret with 120 bullets with a fire rate of 12 rounds per second. These turrets deals 6 electricity damage a shot, with a crit chance of 15%, a crit multiplier of x1.5, a status chance of 15%, and a targeting radius of 60ft.

Turrets posses health, armor, and shields equal to 20% of Vaubans, and are destroyed when their ammo runs out. You may have no more then 4 of these turrets up at a time.

You may charge this ability, doubling its energy cost to drop a larger, deadlier turret that deals 6 electricity damage and 60 blast damage, firing 6 rounds a second with a targeting range of 300 meters. This turret posses a 50% critical chance with a x2 crit multiplier, and a status chance of 50%. They are created with health, shields, and armor equal to 40% of your own. You may have no more then 2 of these turrets active at a time.

You may target an active turret with this ability, granting it 120 additional ammo capacity, reloading it fully, and increasing its current/total damage, health, shields, & armor by 10% of your own respective maximum stats. Reloading a turret within 10 seconds of receiving these buffs grant it no further benefit beyond the granted ammunition.

Allies may interact with these turrets once every 60 seconds, gaining full ammunition for their primary and secondary weapons when they do so.

 

2: Vortex

 

3: bastille 

 

4: No Mans Land

Place various deadly mines every 5 meters within affinity range.

Allies and Turrets within this space have their ammo increased to full, while have their damage, health, and shields increased by 10%, and their rate of fire and lock-on range are increased by 100% for the duration.

Edited May 31, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

On 2018-04-27 at 2:31 PM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

This is a neat idea.  However I feel like its a bit to similar to Snow Globe.  Its like a mix of Snow Globe meets Cataclysm.  

Good to hear.  I wanted to do something that kept the engineer feel while moving him more into utility/support rather than utility/CC.

 

So something like:

Alt 3.  Munitions Depot: Deploy small ammo boxes that allies can pick up.  Using this ability in range of a turret restores partial ammo.

or

Alt Passive. Munitions Depot: Vauban and any allies around him have a chance to return fired ammo to the clip.

I had originally thought of something similar to these, but then with Carrier Prime, ammo pizzas, and ammo mutations it didn't seem quite as useful to anyone except new players.  I suppose though it would offer more choice of pets, and less need to carry the other stuff for bullet hoses.

Long time no see btw, nice to see that the thread and op got updated as much as it did.

[Desperado14]

To an extent, I agree with this.  While killing enemies has gotten much easier over time and "pure" CC has become less important, I personally think it ties right into weather or not you play in a group, and weather or not the mission is a farming mission.  More often than not, Vauban slows down farming missions, because his main ability keeps enemies from coming to you.  If you are running solo, Vauban is usually not the right tool. This probably makes up for 80% of all missions played by most players. He seems like a good choice only in certain situations, where a support frame is needed in a squad, but there is already a trinity.  He went from being the toolbox to being a rarely used tool.  While some of this could be fixed with ability changes, I find that a lot of the issue revolves around the lack of enemy utility (mainly grineer and infested) as well as mission types and solo-ability.  Maybe what we need are missions and enemies that require thinking, teamwork, and utility to defeat, rather than just all out power.  

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 2018-05-31 at 8:00 AM, BigPapiPimp said:

You brought this upon yourself @(PS4)ZeroSection

I had to Try!

 

 

V bon

Passive: Heavy Shields

Vauban applies his damage reduction from armor to his shields. Greater function comes from a better form.

1: Red Metal

Vauban assembles rudimentary battlements with advanced technique and resources. Gallium wired circuitry and argon loaded payloads speak certain death to all that hear.

Cost: 25 energy

Range: 1 meter

Drops a turret with 120 bullets with a fire rate of 12 rounds per second. These turrets deals 6 electricity damage a shot, with a crit chance of 15%, a crit multiplier of x1.5, a status chance of 15%, and a targeting radius of 60ft.

Turrets posses health, armor, and shields equal to 20% of Vaubans, and are destroyed when their ammo runs out. You may have no more then 4 of these turrets up at a time.

You may charge this ability, doubling its energy cost to drop a larger, deadlier turret that deals 6 electricity damage and 60 blast damage, firing 6 rounds a second with a targeting range of 300 meters. This turret posses a 50% critical chance with a x2 crit multiplier, and a status chance of 50%. They are created with health, shields, and armor equal to 40% of your own. You may have no more then 2 of these turrets active at a time.

You may target an active turret with this ability, granting it 120 additional ammo capacity, reloading it fully, and increasing its current/total damage, health, shields, & armor by 10% of your own respective maximum stats. Reloading a turret within 10 seconds of receiving these buffs grant it no further benefit beyond the granted ammunition.

Allies may interact with these turrets once every 60 seconds, gaining full ammunition for their primary and secondary weapons when they do so.

 

2: Vortex

 

3: bastille 

 

4: No Mans Land

Place various deadly mines every 5 meters within affinity range.

Allies and Turrets within this space have their ammo increased to full, while have their damage, health, and shields increased by 10%, and their rate of fire and lock-on range are increased by 100% for the duration.

The passive is pretty awesome I love it.  I really like the idea for the 1 as well.  So is the one an exalted weapon?  It'd be pretty cool with the exalted changes we're getting soon.  I think the only thing I would recommend is that the ammo refilling amount be based on power strength and not refill the the entire turrets clip.  It would help build diversity so people don't just continue to build range and duration and nothing else.  As for the the 4 that sounds really neat.  How does it work? Is it like a sustained ability where we pop it and it has an energy tick?   That would certainly be easier than hitting a button to plop one down in the heat of the moment.  I really like that idea.

21 hours ago, BigPapiPimp said:

Long time no see btw, nice to see that the thread and op got updated as much as it did.

I tried to keep it going for as long as I could just to get people talking.  There's been a lot more threads about him.  And the devs finally acknowledged our concerns so thats good.  I just hope they keep going.