Vauban: My thoughts on his ailing problems in todays Tenno world and my ideas for a rework

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 2018-06-01 at 2:27 PM, Desperado14 said:

To an extent, I agree with this.  While killing enemies has gotten much easier over time and "pure" CC has become less important, I personally think it ties right into weather or not you play in a group, and weather or not the mission is a farming mission.  More often than not, Vauban slows down farming missions, because his main ability keeps enemies from coming to you.  If you are running solo, Vauban is usually not the right tool. This probably makes up for 80% of all missions played by most players. He seems like a good choice only in certain situations, where a support frame is needed in a squad, but there is already a trinity.  He went from being the toolbox to being a rarely used tool.  While some of this could be fixed with ability changes, I find that a lot of the issue revolves around the lack of enemy utility (mainly grineer and infested) as well as mission types and solo-ability.  Maybe what we need are missions and enemies that require thinking, teamwork, and utility to defeat, rather than just all out power.  

This is definitely true full stop.  One of the first things I did when Sanctuary onslaught came out is run it as Vauban.  It wasn't hard to figure out that most of my abilities were hampering the rate of efficiency gain because most my abilities were slowing down the fighting.  And that's a big problem that people really don't like, which is why we get speedva over slowva so very, very often.  Obviously SO and ESO aren't the entire game, but it did highlight all the things that are not working in other missions pretty quickly.  Honestly I don't know if new enemy mechanics would fix his issues.  Even if you gave the grineer their own version of nullifiers and the like the answer will still be to kill more > buff harder > survive > kill even more > debuff even more > room cleared.  The best CC is still death.  Then there's the whole issue of whether or not the player base would except it.  I haven't forgot the outcries when nullifiers were initially released.  Top that off with new frame releases like Khora, whom has similar and more interesting CC mechancs, and whom which I feel is better than Vauban for infested anything now, and it just makes the situation worse.

Now we're even introducing new frames like the Eidolon frame that can CC in more interesting ways and have mobs explode or turn on other enemies in the process.  That to me said leagues and volumes about Vauban's current state.  I think its really time to give up on pure CC and really rethink his identity in the game. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'm unsure why turrets are a popular choice for Vauban reworks.  I don't see how one can make them useful without being destroyed instantly/being op.

[BigPapiPimp]

On 2018-06-01 at 8:53 PM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

I tried to keep it going for as long as I could just to get people talking.  There's been a lot more threads about him.  And the devs finally acknowledged our concerns so thats good.  I just hope they keep going.

Again thanks for your work! I didn’t spit anyway at a cursory glance but I look forward to posting unwanted build ideas in them!

On 2018-06-01 at 8:53 PM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

So is the one an exalted weapon?  It'd be pretty cool with the exalted changes we're getting soon.  I think the only thing I would recommend is that the ammo refilling amount be based on power strength and not refill the the entire turrets clip.

Yeah, I didn’t intend for it to be an exalted weapon, or meant for dps at all really when considered for higher levels, but it might be too jank in terms of being weak in game impact but giving full ammo restores.

i wanted it to be more versatile in game in practice, less to do/affect his build diversity, which I think should still be based around his bastille and vortex, I was even thinking of making their range based on affinity as well lol.

To bad threads like these die, I like seeing what people have to say about goofy powers and interactions like these.

Great job compiling them again.

Edited June 8, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

On 2018-06-04 at 8:37 AM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm unsure why turrets are a popular choice for Vauban reworks.  I don't see how one can make them useful without being destroyed instantly/being op.

Maybe have them be durable but not very impactful? Just sorta hammering away in the back round while your team does their thing.

Maybe give their health pools damage caps like the corpus bubble boys.

Do you dislike the idea of turrets in general, and just not want to see them in game? Or is DE’s “balance” purely your concern for the idea?

I see his 1 as S#&$ty turrets already so maybe that’s why it’s not such a big jump for me.

They’re already not very impactful, and don’t have “health” just charges, but I think their can be more and give more for vauban to do in game, plus we don’t have any frames that bother to anything with the space they control once they do so with their abilities.

This could give boobon a little extra as a credit to team while giving him a little mini game as well. He could invest as little or as much as he wants with them in my iteration of it as well.

Edited June 8, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

On 2018-06-01 at 11:27 AM, Desperado14 said:

To an extent, I agree with this.  While killing enemies has gotten much easier over time and "pure" CC has become less important, I personally think it ties right into weather or not you play in a group, and weather or not the mission is a farming mission.  More often than not, Vauban slows down farming missions, because his main ability keeps enemies from coming to you.  If you are running solo, Vauban is usually not the right tool. This probably makes up for 80% of all missions played by most players. He seems like a good choice only in certain situations, where a support frame is needed in a squad, but there is already a trinity.  He went from being the toolbox to being a rarely used tool.  While some of this could be fixed with ability changes, I find that a lot of the issue revolves around the lack of enemy utility (mainly grineer and infested) as well as mission types and solo-ability.  Maybe what we need are missions and enemies that require thinking, teamwork, and utility to defeat, rather than just all out power.  

While a lot of new content has come out in this vein of time to kill and room clear being the most important, survival style gameplay where efficiency and safety in clearing enemies is paramount stil exists, and while at their extremes the game might look a little silly or unrecognizable I still think there is room for a frame like V-ban to shine, especially if he gets some nice little tweaks to add more to his somewhat negatively redundant kit.

  Redundancy can be great if it continues to cover up and strengthen an important area, but right now his grenade and mines don’t do that, if they where just changed so something more effective or compilative with his kit/in-game-practice of controlling enemy engagement I think he be more enjoyable and unique and would see a lot more play as a consequence.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

For crying out loud, any idea that suggests replacing abilities is a bad idea that will never get implemented. Replacing the whole kit? You are just doing a crappy warframe concept post that will likewise never happen.

 

Work with what is already there, you are more likely to see changes in this fashion.

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

6 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

For crying out loud, any idea that suggests replacing abilities is a bad idea that will never get implemented. Replacing the whole kit? You are just doing a crappy warframe concept post that will likewise never happen.

 

Work with what is already there, you are more likely to see changes in this fashion.

But isnt their like 5 reworks that involved completely gutting abilities? Lol smh these are just ideas and if more people got on board de would likely implement them but may sayers are cancerous and like "constructive criticism " just the typical "I know DE because so no" go away or insert a polite comment as to why you disagree and/or what "YOU" would do. That's how reworks are born. Smh

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

While I like this warframe it's not really following the theme imo. This sounds more like a  Grenadier rather than a fortress engineer. 

 

Vauban built fortresses and made plans on how to take down other enemy fortresses.

I agree the passive he currently has is garbage your idea was a bit too strong imo. Maybe a flat + x after modding per deployable up to x? 

Or give him magazine/clip regen?

I don't think his health should be his focus but how he defends it rather. Being that he's a fortress designer an not a combat specialist however a way to break through defenses should also be considered as that was part of his job and is why he's lacking as is.

 

Here's the link to my post and ideas maybe you could give me so criticisms and we can brain share. The more people talk the more DE listens who'd to really say what's "ok" and what's "op"?

 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 2018-06-04 at 11:37 AM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm unsure why turrets are a popular choice for Vauban reworks.  I don't see how one can make them useful without being destroyed instantly/being op.

It just depends on the approach is all.  In my opinion they need to have some kind of resource cost outside of normal warframe energy, with mechanics that require you to pay attention to them.  I tried to approach that in an interesting way.

 

11 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

For crying out loud, any idea that suggests replacing abilities is a bad idea that will never get implemented. Replacing the whole kit? You are just doing a crappy warframe concept post that will likewise never happen.

On top of being overly negative and nonconstructive in the tone of your post your factually wrong because things are getting changed, replaced and implemented all the time for the past 4 years now.  You have but to look at the wiki and see that if you haven't been playing awhile.

4 hours ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

But isnt their like 5 reworks that involved completely gutting abilities?

Off the top of my head:

1.  The very first Excalibur rework which removed Super Jump as an ability from the game.

2. The very first Ember rework which removed Overheat as an ability from the game.

3.  The Limbo rework.

4.  The first Ash Bladestorm gutting.

5. The first Saryn Miasma gutting.

6.  The more recent Ember world on fire gutting.

7.  The Khora rework for the first version of Khora we never even got to experience.

9.  The recent Trinity link self damage nerfs, and the older Blessing nerfs going all the way back to when blessing granted invincibility and had NO range limit.

10. The Oberon rework.

And these are just off the top of my head.  You can see more on the wiki.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

While I like this warframe it's not really following the theme imo. Vauban built fortresses and made plans on how to take down other enemy fortresses.

If your reffering to the historical Sébastien Le Prestre de Vauban sure.  But I wasn't leaning on the name "Vauban" for a historically inspired theme.  I went for a more traditional FPS engineer.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

This sounds more like a  Grenadier rather than a fortress engineer.

Gonna have to disagree here unfortunately.  As I said before, my rework was actually inspired by more traditional Engineers in other games and then converted to a Warframe flavor.  The initial ideas actually came from TF2 and Killzone 2 engineer classes, with Pixel Junk Monsters layered on top as the upkeep game play mechanics.  If your unfamiliar Pixel Junk Monsters its a tower defense style game where you danced on the towers you created to power them up.  You would go around doing this-putting down a tower, dancing on it to level it up or make it attack faster etc.

I feel like I captured that traditional engineer feeling for the most part, with the Turret and party buff ability with turret maintenance attached.  I also kept some of his current kit and added in a more multi-function explosive that has wayyyyy more control than Minelayer would ever hope to have..  Most of what I've listed was mostly in the abstract though with the goal of getting people to talk about it and Vaubans place in the game.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

I agree the passive he currently has is garbage your idea was a bit too strong imo. Maybe a flat + x after modding per deployable up to x? 

Or give him magazine/clip regen?

I agree with this.  I think I'll add that in later as a side note.

As for the other part I had thought of some kind of ammo restoration ability or passive, but the problem is we have so many ways to recover ammo now since 2014 that just feels redundant, cause things like throwing out ammo restore packs is very in-line with a traditional FPS engineer.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

I don't think his health should be his focus but how he defends it rather. Being that he's a fortress designer an not a combat specialist however a way to break through defenses should also be considered as that was part of his job and is why he's lacking as is.

The reason why I stayed away from too many build-able (Fortress style) abilities is two fold:

1.  Because the pace of the game is quite quick and enemy pathing is quite volatile, so you never know if an enemy will interact with what you laid down unless its infested.

2. Our ability to delete enemies and rooms because of power creep is far greater than 4 years ago.  So, having an immobile kit has the potential to put you at a great disadvantage depending on party make-up and mission type.

I mean you could give him stuff like a build-able wall, but that seems redundant as we have 3 Warframes that can do that already in their own unique fashion.  You could give him stuff like a shield generator, but people don't play clustered up enough to make that work-just like his current passive.  Not to mention now you have to balance every warframes eHP around another eHP increasing ability.  At least in my opinion it was easier to give him buffs, debuffs and turret abilities that operate with him as the center focus or something he has to personally focus on.  It gives more control to the player. It seems better and more interactive and less passive as well rather than to give him a bunch of things that he sets down and they operate independently.  Those are my thoughts on the matter at least at this time.

I will definitely check on your thread later though.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection