PerishedFraud Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) Today I've brought you here to talk about power and mechanics. Now, I'm an old player, I've been here since the Stug release. I think MR is meaningless, but I also think I have enough experience from time played alone to know what I'm talking about. I don't like bragging or telling people that I'm totally an old guy yo, but it seems to make people listen instead of hunting for things to flame over. Edit: I stand corrected. Someone found a reason to derail from this very paragraph. Keep trolling, Tenno. With that said... Intro text and questions are in this spoiler. Proposed changes are right below. I encourage you to read this bit too, but it's up to you. Spoiler I'd like to raise several questions: Do you think a powerful frame doesn't need updates? Do you think powerful abilities deserve to be mechanically inconvenient? Do you think powerful abilities deserve to be hard to use? Do you know the difference between inconvenient and hard to use by design? Do you think all frames should be fun to play regardless of their power level? Now, these questions stand here only to provoke some thought. They don't actually have a right or wrong answer. I've seen a certain event happen many times, which is that the community is incredibly scared of devs reworking or updating frames. This is most prominent with popular or powerful frames. ...Let's be real here. Everyone likes better mechanics. The reason for this fear is that people are dreading that said updates come with a nerf. The devs themselves, for some god-forsaken reason, also showed habits of nerfing things after updating them mechanically. I'm gonna say right now that it's wrong and cruel, but I digress. The following is a list of proposed changes to make every frame more fun and fluid to play. A few changes might make frames slightly more powerful, but most should leave it completely intact. The goal of this list is to make every frame play smoothly and not be boring or a hindrance. A gameplay quality update. That is the only standard applied and no balancing of power has been taken into mind. I think that this should make it a list of pure improvements, without situational stuff that people might argue about. I hope that I'm not wrong. With that done (or not done), let's begin. Limbo. The guy who has immense power, but who causes more harm than good with it most of the time. Most frames on this list have only two, three or four lines for their proposed changes. A few like Equinox have a lilttle bit more. Limbo though, he has a small wall. This is why he is first. He is also the only frame where an addition is proposed in the form of an augment. Spoiler Banish coats allies with void energy, giving energy regen as normal. Allies can press the interact key to enter the rift while coated. Interacting with the environment takes priority. The interact key also exits banish, not rolling. Roll-generated portals must be interacted with to banish. Duration of portals doubled (but not of the banish they cause). An augment for stasis is released, which does not freeze projectiles. Better indicators for rift surge. First three abilities are one-handed and can be cast while moving. Cataclysm is not one-handed but does not interrupt movement. Allies see duration of Cataclysm while in it, on its icon. Enemies near Cataclysm's border take damage from both inside and outside of the rift. Enemies that just got banished take damage from both inside and outside the rift for one second. Ash. Spoiler No Change...huh Atlas. Spoiler Tectonics and Rumblers can be cast while moving. Rumblers is not one-handed but does not interrupt movement. The flash from Petrify does not halt player movement. Has his own moddable "melee weapon", corresponding to his Landslide. Landslide allows movement immediately upon landing the punch. Banshee. Spoiler Sonic Boom, Sonar and Silence are one-handed and can be cast while moving. Sound Quake is not one-handed and can be cast while moving, including the augment. (This is the casting animation, not the ability itself) Unaugmented Sound Quake still freezes you in position, but allows usage of other abilities and your secondary weapon from that position. Chroma. Spoiler Casting/Cancelling Spectral Scream is not one-handed but doesn't interrupt or slow movement. Elemental Ward and Vex Armor are one-handed and can be cast while moving. You can cast EW/VA during the cast animation of either, activating both simultaneously in one animation. Elemental Ward uses ally affinity range, unaffected by range mods. Effigy's cast and cancel are one handed and do not interrupt movement. Ember. Spoiler Accelerant and Fire Blast are one-handed and can be cast while moving. World on Fire's cast does not interrupt movement. Equinox. Spoiler All abilities of both forms, excluding Mend & Maim, are one-handed and castable while moving. Mend & Maim are not one-handed but do not interrupt movement. Abilities are not disabled by switching forms. See below: Stored damage for Mend & Maim persists between forms. Enemies affected by Rest & Rage persist between forms. Pacify and Provoke do not persist between forms, but rather you immediately gain the other effect on form swap. Excalibur. Spoiler Radial Blind is one-handed. Slash Dash allows movement immediately after hitting an enemy/enemies. Radial Javelin has better cast time and allows movement. Is not one-handed. Has his own moddable "melee weapon" corresponding to Slash Dash. Has another moddable "melee weapon" corresponding to Exalted Blade. You might be wondering why separating Slash Dash and Exalted Blade is important. This is because they are optimized with entirely different builds. I don't suppose you want speed or status on your Slash Dash, eh? This same separation is in Wukong's suggestions too. Frost. Spoiler Ice Wave and Snow Globe are one-handed and do not interrupt movement. Avalanche is not one-handed but does not interrupt movement. Punch-Through allows shots to pass through globes. Globes don't actually interfere with Punch-Through. This means that as long as you have enough Punch-Through to get through one Globe, you can potentially shoot through any number of globes. Gara. Spoiler Shattered Lash's sweep is not one-handed but does not interrupt movement. Spectrorage and Splinter Storm are one-handed and do not interrupt movement. The casting of Mass Vitrify is not one handed but allows movement at 50% speed. Initial area of effect does not change. Has her own moddable "melee weapon", corresponding to Shattered Lash. Harrow. Spoiler Penance is one-handed and does not interrupt movement. Covenant is not one-handed but does not interrupt movement. You can cancel Covenant by recasting it. Upon cancel, it has a three second cooldown before usage. Covenant uses ally affinity range for both effects. Why allow recastable Covenant? Isn't that bad? Thing is, as long as Harrow had a pit, pool of water, or high area to jump in, he could keep cancelling and recasting Covenant. Many a wise Harrow utilize this properly. This is why it should be an actual mechanic as opposed to an inconvenient-to-use trick. Hydroid. Spoiler No Change...huh. Inaros. Spoiler Dessication and Devour are one-handed and do not interrupt movement. Sand Storm's cast and recovery are not one-handed but do not interrupt movement. Scarab Armor is not one-handed but allows movement during the channel at 50% speed. Ivara. Spoiler Navigator and Artemis Bow's casts are not one-handed but allow movement. Has her own moddable "Primary Weapon", Corresponding to Artemis Bow. Accepts both shotgun and rifle mods, but does not allow you to mix both. Loki. Spoiler Invisibility's cast is one-handed and allows movement. Radial disarm's cast is one-handed and allows movement. No longer moves Loki on its own. Mag. Spoiler Crush is not one-handed but allows movement. Initial area of effect does not change. Mesa. Spoiler Ballistic Battery, Shooting Gallery and Shatter Shield are one-handed and allow movement. Peacemaker can be "reloaded" by pressing alt-fire, resetting your reticule size without reactivating the ability. This costs as much energy as a recast. Has her own moddable "secondary weapon", corresponding to Peacemaker. Mirage. Spoiler Hall of Mirrors, Sleight of Hand and Eclipse are one-handed and allow movement. Prism is not one-handed but allows movement. Nekros. Spoiler Terrify is one-handed and allows movement. Desecrate and Shadows of the Dead are not one-handed but allow movement. Nezha. Spoiler Firewalker, Blazing Chakram and Warding Halo are one-handed and allow movement. Synergy with Firewalker and Blazing Chakram drains 25 base energy when it triggers, but does not disable Firewalker. Divine Spears cast and cancel are not one-handed but allow movement. You can recast Warding Halo to refresh it (no stacking). Nidus. Spoiler Virulence and Ravenous are not one-handed but allow movement. You can cancel Larva for no damage by recasting (unless you have the augment). Ravenous maggots seek out Larva targets. Nova. Spoiler Null Star is one-handed and allows movement. Molecular Prime is not one-handed but allows movement. Holding Antimatter Drop while airborne summons it below you, allowing you to fly on it freely. (You can already do this trick but it is incredibly hard.) Wormholes make a caster-side instance, allowing fast usage even if you're a laggy client. Other people use it normally (once their machines comprehend the wormholes). Nyx. Spoiler Replace that damn passive. I won't suggest anything, but it's detrimental to her own style of gameplay. Mind Control and Chaos are one-handed and allow movement. Absorb allows usage of secondary weapon without augment. Absorb's cancel animation allows movement. Oberon. Spoiler All abilities are one-handed and allow movement. If allies are under the effects of Iron Renewal and a new Iron Renewal with a lesser effect is applied (perhaps while the first is decaying), the stronger one becomes refreshed/permanent. Renewal range scaling removed. Renewal targets/heads to all allies in affinity range, including non-Tenno. Renewal drain only increases per Tenno affected, heals non-Tenno for free. Octavia. Spoiler All abilities are one-handed in addition to already allowing movement. This frame is stupid. I said it. Go ahead, flame me. :> Rhino. Spoiler Rhino Charge no longer halts. Dashes immediately. Iron Skin and Roar are one-handed and allow movement. Iron Skin can be recasted/refreshed. (No stacking!) Roar uses ally affinity range, unaffected by range mods. Rhino Stomp is not one-handed but allows movement. Rhino Stomp is castable from air. Causes rhino to do a large melee slam that also casts stomp. Saryn. Spoiler Miasma is not one-handed but allows movement. Comes with a huge page that explains exactly how her abilities work and scale. Accessible from arsenal, loadout, etc. Titania. Spoiler Spellbind, Tribute and Lantern are one-handed and allow movement. Razorwing cast is not one-handed but allows movement. Has her own moddable "Primary weapon", corresponding to Dex Pixia. Accepts both shotgun and rifle mods, but does not allow you to mix both. Has her own moddable "Melee weapon", corresponding to Diwata. Trinity. Spoiler All abilities are one-handed and allow movement. Valkyr. Spoiler Ripline's enemy targetting cast is one-handed and allows movement. Warcry uses ally affinity range, unaffected by range mods. Warcry and Paralysis are one-handed and allow movement. Hysteria's cast and cancel are not one-handed but allow movement. Has her own moddable "Melee weapon", corresponding to Hysteria. Vauban. Spoiler Still Boring. Maybe make his Teslas not garbage, eh? Volt. Spoiler Electric Shield's cast is one-handed and allows movement. Discharge's cast is not one-handed but allows movement. Speed uses ally affinity range, unaffected by range mods. Cancelling Speed by doing a backwards roll doesn't actually do the roll, just cancels Speed. Speed still gives increased melee attack speed if cancelled. Wukong. Spoiler -Iron Jab and Defy are one-handed and allow movement. -Cloud Walker is not one-handed but allows movement. -Primal's Fury's combos are doable by human beings. -Primal Fury's cast is not one-handed but allows movement. -Has his own "Melee weapon", corresponding to Iron Jab. -Has another "Melee weapon", corresponding to Primal Fury. You might be wondering why separating Iron Jab and Primal Fury is important. This is because they are optimized with entirely different builds. I don't suppose you want speed or crits on your Iron Jab, eh? This same separation is in Excalibur's suggestions too. Zephyr. Spoiler Turbulence is now one-handed and allows movement. Tornado is not one handed but allows movement. I hope you liked proposed changes. I've done my best to improve on every frame's playability and remove things that frustrate players. I am hopeful that maybe, just maybe, the devs will see this from the corner of their eyes. Cheers. Edited March 16, 2018 by BeeOverlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Licitaqua Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 what exactly makes you a vet and why should DE consider this aside from calling yourself a veteran player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerishedFraud Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Licitaqua said: what exactly makes you a vet and why should DE consider this aside from calling yourself a veteran player It's right there, in the post. Don't think me oblivious, you've read the first paragraph and have immediately decided to wreak havoc. I will be ignoring similar posts. Actual criticism is welcome. Cheers. PS: They should consider it because it isn't power-based. It's a list of improvements for purely better gameplay, not better balance, Edited March 16, 2018 by BeeOverlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Licitaqua Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Just now, BeeOverlord said: It's right there, in the post. Don't think me oblivious, you've read the first paragraph and have immediately decided to wreak havoc. I will be ignoring similar posts. Actual criticism is welcome. Cheers. i dont read text walls too much work, though if you actually think de is going to read this good for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndermanBeast Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) Good ideas, but I have a few problems with it. You say in Frost’s proposed changes that punch through allows you to shoot through the globes, but how much though? Many Frost players stack the globes up for more health, and more globes would mean that you would need more punch through mods. For all the moddable exalted weapons, how would you get to the mod screen? i.e. is there a certain button in the mod screen which allows you to use mods on the weapons. And what about rivens? Would you get them for the weapons? Edited March 16, 2018 by EndermanBeast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerishedFraud Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) @EndermanBeast 1. This is actually a really good point. Perhaps having enough punch-through to pass through one globe should allow your shots to pass through any additional globes. This would mean that as long as you came prepared, no amount of stacking/spamming would break it for you. It has been added in. 2. Devs have done similar things already. See: Mandachord, Chroma Energy. A simple button or two next to the frame is already enough. Edited March 16, 2018 by BeeOverlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 When you stack globes for more health you still only have one globe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnccs215 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Licitaqua said: i dont read text walls too much work, though if you actually think de is going to read this good for you If you are unwilling to judge a work by its value due to literally nothing but laziness, you warrant less legitimacy than any one you are attempting to question Edited March 16, 2018 by tnccs215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerishedFraud Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 Just now, schilds said: When you stack globes for more health you still only have one globe. Not what Enderman was talking about. Say you're in a hallway and there's two separate globes in your way. With regular punchthrough mechanics, even if it worked on one globe, it'd have to get through both to avoid causing you trouble. Thankfully I did find a solution for it. It's in frost's bit of the first post now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huanthus Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said: Banish coats allies with void energy, giving energy regen as normal. Allies can press the interact key to enter the rift while coated. Interacting with the environment takes priority. The interact key also exits banish, not rolling. Why not just roll in and roll out as limbo does why an extra interact key? Also i believe Cata damage should be over time ramping up as the bubble colapses. Regarding Vauban and Chroma I'd increase base armor on Vauban and change the passives of him and Chroma as stated here: Other than that i like your suggestions, if you have ones on mine would be appreciated, btw that is a pre atlas rework topic so you can ignore the Atlas on that, im quite happy with how he is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerishedFraud Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 Just now, Huanthus said: Why not just roll in and roll out as limbo does why an extra interact key? Also i believe Cata damage should be over time ramping up as the bubble colapses. Regarding Vauban and Chroma I'd increase base armor on Vauban and change the passives of him and Chroma as stated here: Other than that i like your suggestions, if you have ones on mine would be appreciated, btw that is a pre atlas rework topic so you can ignore the Atlas on that, im quite happy with how he is right now. I'd be up for an extra interact key, but I can't help but think of players with controllers. Aren't they already using every key they have? This is why we don't see unique keys for other stuff too, I think. Maybe an extra key on PC only? Seems a bit unfair to console players again, though. Speaking of Vauban and Chroma, I agree 100%, but those changes have more to do with power than convenience. You won't ever see someone getting mad or annoyed from the passives sucking. The only passive I found that actually annoyed people is Nyx's as it made her other abilities worse. That said, I sincerely hope that Vauban gets a good Tesla and passive, and that Chroma gets an actual passive. I just won't talk about that here ;p Carry on Huan, your suggestions are nice, but you should fix your black text. A paste to and from notepad usually does the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huanthus Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 54 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said: You won't ever see someone getting mad or annoyed from the passives sucking. I'm someone :v when i see a character/warframe I try to take all into consideration for example just changing the Ember Passive to restore energy per melee hit on enemies on fire and buffing fire damage done by ember the QoL of the frame goes up by a lot, so passives imo are such a wasted opportunities for improvement 57 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said: I'd be up for an extra interact key, but I can't help but think of players with controllers. Aren't they already using every key they have? This is why we don't see unique keys for other stuff too, I think. Maybe an extra key on PC only? Seems a bit unfair to console players again, though. Thing is that rolling is a bit more convenient and manageable in a fast paced game such as warframe though you could always add a customizable hotkey to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw1996 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 1 hour ago, BeeOverlord said: Valkyr. Reveal hidden contents Ripline's enemy targetting cast is one-handed and allows movement. Warcry uses ally affinity range, unaffected by range mods. Warcry and Paralysis are one-handed and allow movement. Hysteria's cast and cancel are not one-handed but allow movement. Has her own moddable "Melee weapon", corresponding to Hysteria. WarCry uses ally affinity Range, unaffected by range mods This would be a nice choice for Narrow Minded Valkyr builds since buffing the team with a lack of range is annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerishedFraud Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 @Shaw1996 Pretty much every frame with a buff that definitely won't be building range has this issue. They either end up giving a nigh-worthless buff due to the overextended or having to stand right on top of people to give it meaningfully. Valkyr, Rhino, Chroma, it goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huanthus Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, BeeOverlord said: @Shaw1996 Pretty much every frame with a buff that definitely won't be building range has this issue. They either end up giving a nigh-worthless buff due to the overextended or having to stand right on top of people to give it meaningfully. Valkyr, Rhino, Chroma, it goes on. the thing about that is that that makes the mod negative stats useless in that case it would be better to just remove all negative bonuses from these mods that are the definition of high risk/high reward in modding, thats why i think they will not do that on buff abilites outside of support frames such as Trini's bless Edit: Oh and i believe u meant Intolerant thats the one that gives +duration - range Edited March 17, 2018 by Huanthus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw1996 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) On 3/16/2018 at 7:56 PM, BeeOverlord said: @Shaw1996 Pretty much every frame with a buff that definitely won't be building range has this issue. They either end up giving a nigh-worthless buff due to the overextended or having to stand right on top of people to give it meaningfully. Valkyr, Rhino, Chroma, it goes on. Shooting Gallery is probably the only ability that can buff the team without having the frame near the Team. Edited March 18, 2018 by Shaw1996 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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