Lets fix Zephyr once and for all

[EchoesOfRain]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Zephyr just got her Prime yesterday which means that if this was a Burger Shop, the recipe of this sandwich is already considered good to be sold and is on the menu.

I dont like the rework as well, but I guess there is a chance that it will take years now. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Landario said:

I guess that also depends on how vocal we as a comnunity are. If more People raise valid concerns about the Rework and the current state of Zephyr as a valiable Warframe, it will surely influence the decision of a lot of Players who did not decide yet if they want to spend Money on this Prime Access or not. And i am sure when it comes to this, DE will surely have open ears.

They said on the last devstream that they are looking into touching up Zephyr again. Right now is our time to be vocal

 

On 3/16/2018 at 4:42 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Scott still wants to look at her kit further as there are a few lingering issues that we’d like to evolve. He specifically mentioned how her hover functions in closed environments, as well as the speed of her number 2. 
 

 

[ShadowCore67]

Here's my suggestions:

Tailwind: Max height on hover should be affected by power range and charge time. Hover duration should be affected by power duration and not charge time. Allow her to move at walking speed while hovering (Some actual hover animations would be nice too). Allow the divebomb mechanic to trigger at any angle below Zephyr, not just directly below her. Make the knockdown affect as strong as ariburst.

Airburst: Increase the projectile speed a little more. Make the blast suck enemies in like it creates a little vortex on impact. This would make it have great synergy with divebomb. Suck all the enemies into a little group from the sky and then dive down and blast them all away.

Turbulence: No changes here. Personally I'd like visuals that better indicate how big the turbulence bubble is around me but no big deal.

Tornado: Instead of randomly spawning the tornadoes and having them move around on there own will, while having to focus on trying to move them, have them spawn in a formation around her and stay in place. One in front, one on each side, and one behind. This way they act as a more defensive ability that can be placed near objectives. Have the augment make them smaller, but they follow her around and circle around her.

Edited March 21, 2018 by ShadowCore67

[crimson42]

I bought the new prime set, - Zephyr P

 

The prime model looks damn cool.

But I was not prepared for how useless her abilities were,

I’m actually confused with this frame, because, I’m not sure what she is suppose to be?
 

Her “stongest” ability “4” is a bunch of tornados that just randomly moves around. Good in tight corridors, less good in open spaces.

 

A personal wish would be to give Zephyr an ability to Summon an Eagle that destroys everything, but that just my imagination.

[Caelward]

3 hours ago, crimson42 said:

I bought the new prime set, - Zephyr P

 

The prime model looks damn cool.

But I was not prepared for how useless her abilities were,

I’m actually confused with this frame, because, I’m not sure what she is suppose to be?
 

Her “stongest” ability “4” is a bunch of tornados that just randomly moves around. Good in tight corridors, less good in open spaces.

 

A personal wish would be to give Zephyr an ability to Summon an Eagle that destroys everything, but that just my imagination.

Zephyr's a fast reaction frame.

Her Kit has aspects of movement, CC and personal defense.

She is able to move around very quickly. Her Turbulence lets her act with impunity in most situations and she has a couple CC methods to allow her to reach a point and get a job done with little interference.

She's great if you like doing solo work or if you like being able to do things like rescue downed allies in a huge mess of enemies. I've actually done solo interception missions with her more than a few times because she can CC one point and zip between other other points so quickly and easily.

 

But generally with Zephyr, it's about the movement.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Caelward

[Borg1611]

I like the ideas in this thread. I, like many others, suggested a variation of a tail-wind you could toggle on awhile back. That's what a lot of Zephyr players really want. I definitely think being able to go into a mode like that quickly and quickly stop/enter a hover is much better than a slow charge into a low duration hover. The hover can be useful on the plains when doing bounties, but even then it's very slow and not worth a mod slot for casting speed. Being able to go into a fast tailwind and stop it into a hover would feel like a faster and more fluid control than what we have now. It would also feel better when flying than repeatedly pressing 1. The change to rolling out of tailwind recently was nice, but definitely not enough to give us the control we need. 

In my tailwind idea I also got a little creative and added some additional controls while in "flight mode" such as pressing left and right click to do a sharper turn left and right and something like alt fire to do a quick u-turn. Basically adding some Star Fox style controls to it since those buttons aren't doing anything during tailwind anyway. Not really necessary, but it would be neat in larger open areas and possibly allow you to navigate flying indoors without breaking flight if combined with your slower base speed idea. 

Activating the tailwind flight mode should definitely be fast, like a long-press, the slow charge mechanic should just go away.

While I mostly like turbulence, I think they should remove its scaling with range (for the size of that bubble) so that you don't have to maintain a certain range for the ability to have any function at all. At the very least it should have a minimal range that it won't go below so that it always works even with negative range. The augment should also provide a buff to party members over a larger base range and then scale with range.

I'd also consider allowing Turbulence to be re-cast while active, as many abilities in the game should be that currently are not. Personally, I think it would be better to just be a toggle that has an identical cost over time as the duration version and has a cost that scales with efficiency and duration to the same end result in energy cost over time, but having the drain not disable any form of regeneration, just counter it. People are usually against that because they think it's too outside of the norm, but Equinox has a similar ability already and it's a more convenient way of doing things than making us look down to the corner of our screen to look at a timer to re-cast every so often (which isn't anymore engaging and doesn't create interesting gameplay, it's just an inconvenience and adds to how poor the UI is).

I also really like having one large Tornado rather than these smaller ones that just fling things around. It reminds me of one of Storm's big powers in Marvel Heroes (Typhoon). Trying to make use of Tornadoes in their current state just doesn't work well. I think the singular version should be the main way it works and the augment left as the way to split it up. It could also have a decent size "suck zone" that slowly pulls things in at a distance and faster as they get closer to it (bosses can be immune) that scales with range.

If they don't do that they should at least make the tornadoes hold onto enemies better now that we can shoot them to do damage. It's a wasted mechanic if they just hold onto them for a second and fling them off. Making them larger with air bust could also make them hold onto enemies better so that that interaction serves some actual purpose. 

TLDR: Good ideas, especially giving us better control over tailwind. I'd add that Turbulence should be made to function at any negative range so you don't have to keep it above a certain % to have any function at all. I'd also make it re-castable while active or give it an even more convenient activation method as mentioned above. 

 

[EchoesOfRain]

27 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I like the ideas in this thread. I, like many others, suggested a variation of a tail-wind you could toggle on awhile back. That's what a lot of Zephyr players really want. I definitely think being able to go into a mode like that quickly and quickly stop/enter a hover is much better than a slow charge into a low duration hover. The hover can be useful on the plains when doing bounties, but even then it's very slow and not worth a mod slot for casting speed. Being able to go into a fast tailwind and stop it into a hover would feel like a faster and more fluid control than what we have now. It would also feel better when flying than repeatedly pressing 1. The change to rolling out of tailwind recently was nice, but definitely not enough to give us the control we need. 

In my tailwind idea I also got a little creative and added some additional controls while in "flight mode" such as pressing left and right click to do a sharper turn left and right and something like alt fire to do a quick u-turn. Basically adding some Star Fox style controls to it since those buttons aren't doing anything during tailwind anyway. Not really necessary, but it would be neat in larger open areas and possibly allow you to navigate flying indoors without breaking flight if combined with your slower base speed idea. 

Activating the tailwind flight mode should definitely be fast, like a long-press, the slow charge mechanic should just go away.

 

You know, the original Zephyr had some sort of "Hover/Flight mode" before people started suggesting it.

Spoiler

-Gale Force

 

Zephyr launches himself into the air and is airborne for a period of time. During this time Zephyr floats above the ground at a specific height and the player can control his movement via the WASD keys, or thrust forward and aim the direction with the mouse. Each keystroke Zephyr will thrust in that specific direction until the abilities timer is out; down, forwards, backwards, left, and right. Or the player can not press any direction and only hover in place. Melee is impossible during flight, but flight sharply increases speed and firing rate only for Zephyr himself. Great for managing large open tile sets, rushing to downed teammates, reaching loot and secrets, or gaining tactical advantage for firing from above. Note: If the player uses Gale Force on higher ground then flies over terrain where the ground is lower and thus is suddenly 'higher' than before, Zephyr will slowly glide down to the specific height.
-Stretch increases distance covered with each single thrust in a direction.
-Continuity increases the time spent airborne before landing.

 

 

I think this is more how Hover should function. Not a stationary suspension, and nothing at all like Archwing controls. This concept is a bit old, though, and I'd like to add my own little twist to it.

 

Holding the 1 skill will activate Zephyr's Hover for a duration, changing up Zephyr's movement capabilities. During this time, Zephyr will float slightly off the ground, or suspended in midair. Zephyr is free to move with WASD as if she were walking on the ground. If moving while in the air, she will slowly descend as she travels, resulting in a glide. Zephyr has infinite Bullet Jumps while Hover is active so that she can re-position herself with ease. Rolling during a Hover will allow Zephyr to shift forward, backward, or to either side more smoothly and without disrupting any actions such as shooting or reloading. Zephyr can Tailwind while Hovering to quickly travel in any direction, or to assault the enemy. If Zephyr charges up Tailwind while Hover is active, Tailwind will end with a glide that's carried by Tailwind's momentum.

 

So with this, Hover would feel more like a natural extension to Zephyr by improving her overall movement. The movement won't get clunky or even step on Titania's shoes since it doesn't use Archwing controls. If the floatiness of the ability bothers players, they have the freedom of easy positioning with a Bullet Jump ready at all times. While it doesn't have a "hold to keep flying in one direction" (which I personally don't think the skill needs) it does have a glide that can carry the player over longer distances by carrying Tailwind's momentum. This should have everything that a "flight mode" enthusiast would want. 

[ObviousLee]

Sweet Jesus you all are gonna make a ninja have to write an omnibus for a response. Ok folks, I've got work early in the morning however I also get off work relatively early so here's what I'mma do. I'll respond tomorrow when I get offa work and handle as much as I can. Really loving the conversations going on here though. Ya'll are awesome.

[Archeyef]

23 hours ago, EchoesOfRain said:

You know, the original Zephyr had some sort of "Hover/Flight mode" before people started suggesting it.

  Reveal hidden contents

-Gale Force

 

Zephyr launches himself into the air and is airborne for a period of time. During this time Zephyr floats above the ground at a specific height and the player can control his movement via the WASD keys, or thrust forward and aim the direction with the mouse. Each keystroke Zephyr will thrust in that specific direction until the abilities timer is out; down, forwards, backwards, left, and right. Or the player can not press any direction and only hover in place. Melee is impossible during flight, but flight sharply increases speed and firing rate only for Zephyr himself. Great for managing large open tile sets, rushing to downed teammates, reaching loot and secrets, or gaining tactical advantage for firing from above. Note: If the player uses Gale Force on higher ground then flies over terrain where the ground is lower and thus is suddenly 'higher' than before, Zephyr will slowly glide down to the specific height.
-Stretch increases distance covered with each single thrust in a direction.
-Continuity increases the time spent airborne before landing.

 

 

I think this is more how Hover should function. Not a stationary suspension, and nothing at all like Archwing controls. This concept is a bit old, though, and I'd like to add my own little twist to it.

 

Holding the 1 skill will activate Zephyr's Hover for a duration, changing up Zephyr's movement capabilities. During this time, Zephyr will float slightly off the ground, or suspended in midair. Zephyr is free to move with WASD as if she were walking on the ground. If moving while in the air, she will slowly descend as she travels, resulting in a glide. Zephyr has infinite Bullet Jumps while Hover is active so that she can re-position herself with ease. Rolling during a Hover will allow Zephyr to shift forward, backward, or to either side more smoothly and without disrupting any actions such as shooting or reloading. Zephyr can Tailwind while Hovering to quickly travel in any direction, or to assault the enemy. If Zephyr charges up Tailwind while Hover is active, Tailwind will end with a glide that's carried by Tailwind's momentum.

 

So with this, Hover would feel more like a natural extension to Zephyr by improving her overall movement. The movement won't get clunky or even step on Titania's shoes since it doesn't use Archwing controls. If the floatiness of the ability bothers players, they have the freedom of easy positioning with a Bullet Jump ready at all times. While it doesn't have a "hold to keep flying in one direction" (which I personally don't think the skill needs) it does have a glide that can carry the player over longer distances by carrying Tailwind's momentum. This should have everything that a "flight mode" enthusiast would want.

*spoiler'd for spacing

I'd be okay with this as a substitute for flight. Perhaps with a couple alterations/additions, though: (1) Can't be knocked down while Hovering. Instead Zephyr is pushed back, but able to continue firing/casting abilities during push-back. (2) Consider making it a channeled ability. While Hovering, other abilities will have reduced cost. Melee is disabled while Hovering, as in the original fan concept.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Archeyef said:

Consider making it a channeled ability.

Okay, I'm of the firm belief that DE didn't put in the free-movement hover mechanic of the original thread from the start for a reason, known only to them, and that the current hover is the closest we'll get to it. That aside... Drain.

Energy Drain functions (and I hate that 'channeled' has become the term for them, because Channeling is the melee function and this confusion is what caused Zenurik's Inner Might on Focus 2.0 to be called the next OP node until people were very carefully reminded that it was Melee Channeling...) are a nerf.

I'm not talking in hyperbole here, the Energy Drain mechanic is put onto an ability in order to be a deliberate limitation on the power of that ability, just a big drawback that says 'hey, as long as you're using this, you can't gain energy from Abilities, Plates, Regen... anything apart from Orbs and the Rage mechanic'. Zephyr isn't all that energy hungry right now, but with Turbulence and Tornado not falling under the same '50% cost decrease when in the air' umbrella, it can get expensive to keep up your best casts. Especially when Fleeting Expertise is such a massive detriment to her abilities... I can't wait for Primed Streamline...

Anyway, try not to give Zephyr (in fact, any frame in my opinion) any Drain casts, if at all possible. Unlike Nekros, who has actual 'drain per item' effects that allow him to regen energy between casts, Zephyr would have to stump for the play 'energy per second' type, and that would be serious trouble if you were actually in need of Turbulence, but couldn't because you were constantly losing more energy than you picked up... A long base Duration cast is usually more energy efficient, and even if it isn't you can still get more energy back between casts than you could with a consistent drain blocking the main energy regen functions.

Other than that, go wild with the theory crafting! Have fun!

[Archeyef]

59 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Spoiler

Okay, I'm of the firm belief that DE didn't put in the free-movement hover mechanic of the original thread from the start for a reason, known only to them, and that the current hover is the closest we'll get to it. That aside... Drain.

Energy Drain functions (and I hate that 'channeled' has become the term for them, because Channeling is the melee function and this confusion is what caused Zenurik's Inner Might on Focus 2.0 to be called the next OP node until people were very carefully reminded that it was Melee Channeling...) are a nerf.

I'm not talking in hyperbole here, the Energy Drain mechanic is put onto an ability in order to be a deliberate limitation on the power of that ability, just a big drawback that says 'hey, as long as you're using this, you can't gain energy from Abilities, Plates, Regen... anything apart from Orbs and the Rage mechanic'. Zephyr isn't all that energy hungry right now, but with Turbulence and Tornado not falling under the same '50% cost decrease when in the air' umbrella, it can get expensive to keep up your best casts. Especially when Fleeting Expertise is such a massive detriment to her abilities... I can't wait for Primed Streamline...

Anyway, try not to give Zephyr (in fact, any frame in my opinion) any Drain casts, if at all possible. Unlike Nekros, who has actual 'drain per item' effects that allow him to regen energy between casts, Zephyr would have to stump for the play 'energy per second' type, and that would be serious trouble if you were actually in need of Turbulence, but couldn't because you were constantly losing more energy than you picked up... A long base Duration cast is usually more energy efficient, and even if it isn't you can still get more energy back between casts than you could with a consistent drain blocking the main energy regen functions.

Other than that, go wild with the theory crafting! Have fun!

*spoiler'd for spacing

Thanks for using my comment as a springboard for your rant. Justified or not, I think you should maybe have read just a little more of what I said before going off, because you seem to have missed some of what I said.

I'm aware of what channeling, or draining, or toggling, or whatever word you want to use, is for in abilities, and that's why I included it. I felt I was making the ability a little too strong by having it grant immunity to knockdown AND the pseudo-stun animation lock of knock-back, as well as granting a cost reduction to all her abilities while in that state. It is there specifically because it's a nerf, to balance out what might otherwise be considered too strong an ability for too low a cost.

You are aware, also, that the duration stat affects toggled ability drain, right? You can build Zephyr, under the suggested abilities, for high duration, without efficiency mods like Fleeting Expertise, and get to a pretty negligible drain rate. Then throw on streamline to get even better drain. You never even have to touch Fleeting Expertise with this.

[ObviousLee]

On 3/21/2018 at 6:29 AM, Landario said:

Hello,

thumbs up from me ! A very well written and detailed summary about changes that should have been made BEFORE releasing this Warframe as a Prime version.

I like your ideas and by the way you write, i can see that you really put a lot of thought into those proposed changes.

 

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the post. Thank you for taking the time to cast your thoughts onto the thread!

On 3/21/2018 at 6:34 AM, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Zephyr just got her Prime yesterday which means that if this was a Burger Shop, the recipe of this sandwich is already considered good to be sold and is on the menu.

I dont like the rework as well, but I guess there is a chance that it will take years now. 

 

Exactly.

On 3/21/2018 at 7:00 AM, Landario said:

I guess that also depends on how vocal we as a comnunity are. If more People raise valid concerns about the Rework and the current state of Zephyr as a valiable Warframe, it will surely influence the decision of a lot of Players who did not decide yet if they want to spend Money on this Prime Access or not. And i am sure when it comes to this, DE will surely have open ears.

Loud. Loud as all hell.

On 3/21/2018 at 8:41 AM, ShadowCore67 said:

Here's my suggestions:

Tailwind: Max height on hover should be affected by power range and charge time. Hover duration should be affected by power duration and not charge time. Allow her to move at walking speed while hovering (Some actual hover animations would be nice too). Allow the divebomb mechanic to trigger at any angle below Zephyr, not just directly below her. Make the knockdown affect as strong as ariburst.

Airburst: Increase the projectile speed a little more. Make the blast suck enemies in like it creates a little vortex on impact. This would make it have great synergy with divebomb. Suck all the enemies into a little group from the sky and then dive down and blast them all away.

Turbulence: No changes here. Personally I'd like visuals that better indicate how big the turbulence bubble is around me but no big deal.

Tornado: Instead of randomly spawning the tornadoes and having them move around on there own will, while having to focus on trying to move them, have them spawn in a formation around her and stay in place. One in front, one on each side, and one behind. This way they act as a more defensive ability that can be placed near objectives. Have the augment make them smaller, but they follow her around and circle around her.

I don't think divebomb should remain as is. It's always been a relatively subpar ability and as such needs a dire revamp. My suggestion on the matter makes it more useful and intuitive as you can use it in any direction as opposed to just down. It allows more versatility instead of corralling the ability. Plus, airborne-bulldozer!

On 3/21/2018 at 8:56 AM, crimson42 said:

I bought the new prime set, - Zephyr P

 

The prime model looks damn cool.

But I was not prepared for how useless her abilities were,

I’m actually confused with this frame, because, I’m not sure what she is suppose to be?
 

Her “stongest” ability “4” is a bunch of tornados that just randomly moves around. Good in tight corridors, less good in open spaces.

 

A personal wish would be to give Zephyr an ability to Summon an Eagle that destroys everything, but that just my imagination.

This is kinda the thought I expected when the rework came out. "Why did I buy this? What even is this?" Her mechanics are not terrible, but they lack genuine cohesion.

On 3/21/2018 at 12:10 PM, Caelward said:

Zephyr's a fast reaction frame.

Her Kit has aspects of movement, CC and personal defense.

She is able to move around very quickly. Her Turbulence lets her act with impunity in most situations and she has a couple CC methods to allow her to reach a point and get a job done with little interference.

She's great if you like doing solo work or if you like being able to do things like rescue downed allies in a huge mess of enemies. I've actually done solo interception missions with her more than a few times because she can CC one point and zip between other other points so quickly and easily.

 

But generally with Zephyr, it's about the movement.

She's a mobility frame that's hampered in the vast majority of the game unfortunately, hence my suggestion to change how tailwind currently functions into something more in line with her theme and kit. The tailwind rework alleviates that issue almost entirely.

On 3/21/2018 at 12:52 PM, Borg1611 said:

I like the ideas in this thread. I, like many others, suggested a variation of a tail-wind you could toggle on awhile back. That's what a lot of Zephyr players really want. I definitely think being able to go into a mode like that quickly and quickly stop/enter a hover is much better than a slow charge into a low duration hover. The hover can be useful on the plains when doing bounties, but even then it's very slow and not worth a mod slot for casting speed. Being able to go into a fast tailwind and stop it into a hover would feel like a faster and more fluid control than what we have now. It would also feel better when flying than repeatedly pressing 1. The change to rolling out of tailwind recently was nice, but definitely not enough to give us the control we need. 

In my tailwind idea I also got a little creative and added some additional controls while in "flight mode" such as pressing left and right click to do a sharper turn left and right and something like alt fire to do a quick u-turn. Basically adding some Star Fox style controls to it since those buttons aren't doing anything during tailwind anyway. Not really necessary, but it would be neat in larger open areas and possibly allow you to navigate flying indoors without breaking flight if combined with your slower base speed idea. 

Activating the tailwind flight mode should definitely be fast, like a long-press, the slow charge mechanic should just go away.

While I mostly like turbulence, I think they should remove its scaling with range (for the size of that bubble) so that you don't have to maintain a certain range for the ability to have any function at all. At the very least it should have a minimal range that it won't go below so that it always works even with negative range. The augment should also provide a buff to party members over a larger base range and then scale with range.

I'd also consider allowing Turbulence to be re-cast while active, as many abilities in the game should be that currently are not. Personally, I think it would be better to just be a toggle that has an identical cost over time as the duration version and has a cost that scales with efficiency and duration to the same end result in energy cost over time, but having the drain not disable any form of regeneration, just counter it. People are usually against that because they think it's too outside of the norm, but Equinox has a similar ability already and it's a more convenient way of doing things than making us look down to the corner of our screen to look at a timer to re-cast every so often (which isn't anymore engaging and doesn't create interesting gameplay, it's just an inconvenience and adds to how poor the UI is).

I also really like having one large Tornado rather than these smaller ones that just fling things around. It reminds me of one of Storm's big powers in Marvel Heroes (Typhoon). Trying to make use of Tornadoes in their current state just doesn't work well. I think the singular version should be the main way it works and the augment left as the way to split it up. It could also have a decent size "suck zone" that slowly pulls things in at a distance and faster as they get closer to it (bosses can be immune) that scales with range.

If they don't do that they should at least make the tornadoes hold onto enemies better now that we can shoot them to do damage. It's a wasted mechanic if they just hold onto them for a second and fling them off. Making them larger with air bust could also make them hold onto enemies better so that that interaction serves some actual purpose. 

TLDR: Good ideas, especially giving us better control over tailwind. I'd add that Turbulence should be made to function at any negative range so you don't have to keep it above a certain % to have any function at all. I'd also make it re-castable while active or give it an even more convenient activation method as mentioned above. 

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Tornado is kind of a total mess, tailwind is busted, airburst is interesting but lackluster, and turbulence is still the effectively perfect move in the kit.

On 3/21/2018 at 1:54 PM, EchoesOfRain said:

You know, the original Zephyr had some sort of "Hover/Flight mode" before people started suggesting it.

  Reveal hidden contents

-Gale Force

 

Zephyr launches himself into the air and is airborne for a period of time. During this time Zephyr floats above the ground at a specific height and the player can control his movement via the WASD keys, or thrust forward and aim the direction with the mouse. Each keystroke Zephyr will thrust in that specific direction until the abilities timer is out; down, forwards, backwards, left, and right. Or the player can not press any direction and only hover in place. Melee is impossible during flight, but flight sharply increases speed and firing rate only for Zephyr himself. Great for managing large open tile sets, rushing to downed teammates, reaching loot and secrets, or gaining tactical advantage for firing from above. Note: If the player uses Gale Force on higher ground then flies over terrain where the ground is lower and thus is suddenly 'higher' than before, Zephyr will slowly glide down to the specific height.
-Stretch increases distance covered with each single thrust in a direction.
-Continuity increases the time spent airborne before landing.

 

 

I think this is more how Hover should function. Not a stationary suspension, and nothing at all like Archwing controls. This concept is a bit old, though, and I'd like to add my own little twist to it.

 

Holding the 1 skill will activate Zephyr's Hover for a duration, changing up Zephyr's movement capabilities. During this time, Zephyr will float slightly off the ground, or suspended in midair. Zephyr is free to move with WASD as if she were walking on the ground. If moving while in the air, she will slowly descend as she travels, resulting in a glide. Zephyr has infinite Bullet Jumps while Hover is active so that she can re-position herself with ease. Rolling during a Hover will allow Zephyr to shift forward, backward, or to either side more smoothly and without disrupting any actions such as shooting or reloading. Zephyr can Tailwind while Hovering to quickly travel in any direction, or to assault the enemy. If Zephyr charges up Tailwind while Hover is active, Tailwind will end with a glide that's carried by Tailwind's momentum.

 

So with this, Hover would feel more like a natural extension to Zephyr by improving her overall movement. The movement won't get clunky or even step on Titania's shoes since it doesn't use Archwing controls. If the floatiness of the ability bothers players, they have the freedom of easy positioning with a Bullet Jump ready at all times. While it doesn't have a "hold to keep flying in one direction" (which I personally don't think the skill needs) it does have a glide that can carry the player over longer distances by carrying Tailwind's momentum. This should have everything that a "flight mode" enthusiast would want. 

More freedom the better in my eyes. As I've said my goal is cohesion and diversity of play. We should be able to play each frame in more than just a handful of ways and unfortunately Zephyr is a one-two trick pony on how she can be used.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Okay, I'm of the firm belief that DE didn't put in the free-movement hover mechanic of the original thread from the start for a reason, known only to them, and that the current hover is the closest we'll get to it. That aside... Drain.

Energy Drain functions (and I hate that 'channeled' has become the term for them, because Channeling is the melee function and this confusion is what caused Zenurik's Inner Might on Focus 2.0 to be called the next OP node until people were very carefully reminded that it was Melee Channeling...) are a nerf.

I'm not talking in hyperbole here, the Energy Drain mechanic is put onto an ability in order to be a deliberate limitation on the power of that ability, just a big drawback that says 'hey, as long as you're using this, you can't gain energy from Abilities, Plates, Regen... anything apart from Orbs and the Rage mechanic'. Zephyr isn't all that energy hungry right now, but with Turbulence and Tornado not falling under the same '50% cost decrease when in the air' umbrella, it can get expensive to keep up your best casts. Especially when Fleeting Expertise is such a massive detriment to her abilities... I can't wait for Primed Streamline...

Anyway, try not to give Zephyr (in fact, any frame in my opinion) any Drain casts, if at all possible. Unlike Nekros, who has actual 'drain per item' effects that allow him to regen energy between casts, Zephyr would have to stump for the play 'energy per second' type, and that would be serious trouble if you were actually in need of Turbulence, but couldn't because you were constantly losing more energy than you picked up... A long base Duration cast is usually more energy efficient, and even if it isn't you can still get more energy back between casts than you could with a consistent drain blocking the main energy regen functions.

Other than that, go wild with the theory crafting! Have fun!

Max efficiency and decent duration would lead to 1.25 energy per second, every other second of tic during use and a primed flow will at rank 8 nets you four hundred energy. As for the energy drain, well I guess you'd just have to build carefully and/or not use the ability 100% of the time(even though I use razorwing on titania literally all the time to no ill effect due to my build)

3 hours ago, Archeyef said:

Thanks for using my comment as a springboard for your rant. Justified or not, I think you should maybe have read just a little more of what I said before going off, because you seem to have missed some of what I said.

I'm aware of what channeling, or draining, or toggling, or whatever word you want to use, is for in abilities, and that's why I included it. I felt I was making the ability a little too strong by having it grant immunity to knockdown AND the pseudo-stun animation lock of knock-back, as well as granting a cost reduction to all her abilities while in that state. It is there specifically because it's a nerf, to balance out what might otherwise be considered too strong an ability for too low a cost.

You are aware, also, that the duration stat affects toggled ability drain, right? You can build Zephyr, under the suggested abilities, for high duration, without efficiency mods like Fleeting Expertise, and get to a pretty negligible drain rate. Then throw on streamline to get even better drain. You never even have to touch Fleeting Expertise with this.

^this

 

 

If I missed anyone in the thread (which I most likely did) I'm sorry. I'm pretty sick and work is....active. That being said I think we've got some good ideas rolling around here.

 

Now, I must be clear on something: I am adamant about a flight mechanic being included as a mainstay in her kit, and I will not budge from that stance. In my eyes there is no substitute nor valid excuse as to why the ability fails to exist on the frame that is 1: A wind themed frame that 2: is covered in flight surfaces and 3: Resembles a predatory bird(has talons) with a kit that is 4: three quarters of the kit themed after aviation terms and most importantly 5: Has a burst flight mechanic already present in her kit since release.

I don't want target fixation to be as useless as it is right now. It has amazing potential that until something is done with tailwind, will never be met.

If done correctly, This system can, and I'm willing to bet my account on it, that the player base would become enthralled with as flight offers new avenues of approach for play.

Divebomb as is and has been, is booty. With my suggestion, it's no longer a single direction skill that only does literally one thing in one area. It becomes a tactical skill that has zero detriments to it (if implemented correctly) as you'll have greater versatility to the ability itself.

I'm much more flexible on air burst as it has immense potential, but I see less issues with AB than I do with TW, thus TW is and has been my main focus.

Tornado as I laid out could become a much more useful and reliable skill, but tweaking is needed. Hopefully DE is tracking this thread, and personally I'd love for them to weigh in on this so we can get some perspective from their side of the table. I have tomorrow off work so I'll be much more ready to respond as needed, provided I'm not hacking up a lung.

 

Thank you all for participating in the thread so far, and I look forward to more words and suggestions from you all.

 

 

@Azamagon in regards to pressing "S" to initiate hover from flight, that sounds....really good actually. I'll edit the OP tomorrow with a citation for you so people can weigh in on it.

[Caelward]

@ObviousLee

My problem with the divebomb triggering on contact suggestion is that I don't want it to trigger when I lightly brush a tree branch. Before the rework I used tailwind everywhere.

Every time I start to think about it, I just imagine myself getting caught up in random movement stopping impacts. There is nothing more offensive to me than changes that halt movement for no good reason.

I understand your point about 'hard impacts' but I don't trust DE to tweak it. I don't. And if they do this and get it to a point where it feels right, it's going to take them years. We have Zephyr's tweak and rework history as an example of how often they actually pay attention to her as my argument. Apparently if it isn't a turbulence bug, it's not worth dealing with.

I want her controls to be smooth and intuitive. That's why I suggested divebomb being a passive that alters her melee smash. Melee smash is already a part of regular play, why not just let Zephyr have it as a passive that improves a default action rather than trying to make it an obscure, difficult to use feature hidden in another ability. I strongly question whether divebomb as it is, is really stronger than the smash anyways.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Caelward

[NeithanDiniem]

14 minutes ago, Caelward said:

@ObviousLee

My problem with the divebomb triggering on contact suggestion is that I don't want it to trigger when I lightly brush a tree branch. Before the rework I used tailwind everywhere.

Every time I start to think about it, I just imagine myself getting caught up in random movement stopping impacts. There is nothing more offensive to me than changes that halt movement for no good reason.

I understand your point about 'hard impacts' but I don't trust DE to tweak it. I don't. And if they do this and get it to a point where it feels right, it's going to take them years. We have Zephyr's tweak and rework history as an example of how often they actually pay attention to her as my argument. Apparently if it isn't a turbulence bug, it's not worth dealing with.

I want her controls to be smooth and intuitive. That's why I suggested divebomb being a passive that alters her melee smash. Melee smash is already a part of regular play, why not just let Zephyr have it as a passive that improves a default action rather than trying to make it an obscure, difficult to use feature hidden in another ability. I strongly question whether divebomb as it is, is really stronger than the smash anyways.

The way to solve that, as I talked with Lee about this before, is to slightly adjust her hitbox to allow her to shift out of the way of obstacles if she barely clips it. That way she would "slide" past objects she clips but still properly collide with things she ran into. Its sort of the same as the way they altered the Eris defense map to not let you sit on the edges above the play area, they slide you off of them when you try to land.

[Caelward]

11 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The way to solve that, as I talked with Lee about this before, is to slightly adjust her hitbox to allow her to shift out of the way of obstacles if she barely clips it. That way she would "slide" past objects she clips but still properly collide with things she ran into. Its sort of the same as the way they altered the Eris defense map to not let you sit on the edges above the play area, they slide you off of them when you try to land.

This doesn't address my lack of faith in DE to actually do so. I expect them to take the easy way.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Caelward

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Caelward said:

This doesn't address my lack of faith in DE to actually do so. I expect them to take the easy way.

True, but honestly this adjustment to the hitbox would work for every frame and greatly increase the logical interactions with tiny ledges. I cant even count how many times ive gotten shoved up onto the doorframes of corpus ships that are only an inch wide.

[Caelward]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

True, but honestly this adjustment to the hitbox would work for every frame and greatly increase the logical interactions with tiny ledges. I cant even count how many times ive gotten shoved up onto the doorframes of corpus ships that are only an inch wide.

Well it's nice that you still have hope. I'm sticking with my suggestion.

[DiosGX]

On 3/20/2018 at 8:50 PM, Archeyef said:

Yeah, that's the idea. An "equal and opposite force" kind of deal.

This is a completely rocking notion. Nice idea.

 

Also DE, please listen to mah boy Lee on this. He genuinely loves Zephie and only wants what's best for her. People don't rant and rave for years over nothing, or something they have only a half baked notion over.

[(XBOX)MadeDisaster]

I for one do want a small tweak being made to Turbulence, in essence Turbulence is air moving incredibly fast and it just makes sense that if projectiles can be defleted, why not also slow down enemies going in for the melee kill?
I'd like to see something similar to what Gara does with her 2nd ability, it slightly pushes away enemies but they can occasionally hit you if you're not careful. Just a little quality life improvement to an already good ability.
Also something that I find bothersome with Airburst is that you fire 3 projectiles however if one of those three projectiles collides and explodes, the resting do so aswell. Rather than firing 3 projectiles it feels like firing a large invisible clunky barrel disguised as 3 projectiles; thus I'd like for each projectile to follow its own trajectory even if one of them has collided.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Eh, when all's said and done, what I'm really sad about is that I was expecting Tailwind to be like a mod-able version of the Operator dash. I've gotten so used to using that now when I'm in Operator mode, it's genuinely so much better than any other movement I've used in Warframe to date...

So if Tailwind was like the big version of that? I don't think anyone could really complain. A speed that's near to a teleport, but able to turn and curve a little as you go, and then you return to normal air-travelling speed at the end of it, exploit that passive lightweight fall to re-aim and cast again, or even press a button to hover in place... I mean, I didn't want the hover, but now we have it, why not use it to the fullest? That kind of incredibly fast, pin-point accurate dash would have been so good. You wouldn't need any literal flight, because you'd be dodging across the sky and hovering on air until you wanted to come down again.

As much as I love the freedom that the new Tailwind has given me on the Plains, it's genuinely terrible on the tile sets. I really wanted that Dash...

[ObviousLee]

21 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Eh, when all's said and done, what I'm really sad about is that I was expecting Tailwind to be like a mod-able version of the Operator dash. I've gotten so used to using that now when I'm in Operator mode, it's genuinely so much better than any other movement I've used in Warframe to date...

So if Tailwind was like the big version of that? I don't think anyone could really complain. A speed that's near to a teleport, but able to turn and curve a little as you go, and then you return to normal air-travelling speed at the end of it, exploit that passive lightweight fall to re-aim and cast again, or even press a button to hover in place... I mean, I didn't want the hover, but now we have it, why not use it to the fullest? That kind of incredibly fast, pin-point accurate dash would have been so good. You wouldn't need any literal flight, because you'd be dodging across the sky and hovering on air until you wanted to come down again.

As much as I love the freedom that the new Tailwind has given me on the Plains, it's genuinely terrible on the tile sets. I really wanted that Dash...

Incidentally, my tailwind rework offers you exactly what you want. 

[Caelward]

3 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Incidentally, my tailwind rework offers you exactly what you want. 

Yeah, aside from the divebomb thing, I'm all for the rest of your proposed changes.

Yeah, I know that message wasn't for me. XD

[CrankyCat]

I'm not a player to spend ages optimising their frame, and to be blunt, I'm not a terribly good player, but Zephyr has always been my primary frame. Not because she was terribly effective (in my hands, anyway) but fell in love with her look and feel, especially when I got my fashion frame just where I wanted it. 

I came back after taking a couple months break from Warframe (just reminding myself there's other games out there) but came racing back when the Zephyr Prime became available. I know a lot of people didn't see much value in Dive Bomb but I loved it. It was always my get out of jail free card. Surrounded by enemies and outside or high ceilings? Tail Wind straight up twice, Dive Bomb, knock them over like skittles, and generally my buddies would gun the bastards down while they were on their back. I was working towards getting Dive Bomb Vortex as well, so was kind of devastated to come back and find one of my favourite powers gone. - so yes, I'm biased cos it always sucks to be working towards something for a while (I rarely get to play during the week and don't often get to do Syndicate missions), then what you've been working towards has been removed entirely. 

I know they don't exactly want to add a tonne of extra keybindings, and have no idea how it would work on console but If Tail Wind had a keybinding to cancel, or a keybinding to initiate the Dive Bomb properly without phaffing around trying to get the right angle, that'd be ace. And give us back the Dive Bomb Vortex :) I know people had some fun builds around it they really enjoyed, so what if it only works after an additional activiation of another power - you had to be high up, usually with Tail Wind to make it work in the first place. But then...there were times, quite a few, where I'd find myself very high up, knew there were enemies waiting at the bottom, so would just step off the platform, then Dive Bomb down. I think on Uranus iirc? (sorry, it's been a while) but that has a low ceiling, so again, you couldn't do it if you had to activate Tail Wind first. Sigh. 

Even before the 'new and improve' pyscho-tail wind, I often found I would get stuck on lintels and beams with Zephyr when inside so instead of using her as she should - in the air, I was already just running through maps instead. Haven't taken her to the Plains yet. 

The very first time I took her out with her new powers, I didn't mind that they'd combined two powers in one (before I realised that Vortex was removed - what happened to people with that mod in their builds?) until I worked out how clunky it was to use. And I didn't mind because they'd given her a new, cool offensive power - then I used it. It looked so awesome! And was so tragically underwhelming. It's 'okay-ish' for me at the moment because I'm still levelling the prime (not power levelling this one, just doing lowbie missions and taking my time and chilling) and it's 'okay-ish' against lowbie enemies. It's not just that it's a low power level, so doesn't really pack that much of a punch, it seems to have quite a narrow arc of effectiveness. 

On the shield, yeah, I'm not so sure. I've never used Zephyr as a tank build (was going to when I got enough syndicate to get the mods), but I know a good few people specifically used her as a tank with that shield, but it sounds like the energy drain has nerfed that? I use it when I or the party are undermanned and need to do something non-combat related, like revive or use a console or something, to protect me for those precious few seconds. 

I know I haven't really offered any plausible solutions but that's my point of view from a more casual player. 

[ObviousLee]

3 hours ago, CrankyCat said:

I'm not a player to spend ages optimising their frame, and to be blunt, I'm not a terribly good player, but Zephyr has always been my primary frame. Not because she was terribly effective (in my hands, anyway) but fell in love with her look and feel, especially when I got my fashion frame just where I wanted it. 

I came back after taking a couple months break from Warframe (just reminding myself there's other games out there) but came racing back when the Zephyr Prime became available. I know a lot of people didn't see much value in Dive Bomb but I loved it. It was always my get out of jail free card. Surrounded by enemies and outside or high ceilings? Tail Wind straight up twice, Dive Bomb, knock them over like skittles, and generally my buddies would gun the bastards down while they were on their back. I was working towards getting Dive Bomb Vortex as well, so was kind of devastated to come back and find one of my favourite powers gone. - so yes, I'm biased cos it always sucks to be working towards something for a while (I rarely get to play during the week and don't often get to do Syndicate missions), then what you've been working towards has been removed entirely. 

I know they don't exactly want to add a tonne of extra keybindings, and have no idea how it would work on console but If Tail Wind had a keybinding to cancel, or a keybinding to initiate the Dive Bomb properly without phaffing around trying to get the right angle, that'd be ace. And give us back the Dive Bomb Vortex :) I know people had some fun builds around it they really enjoyed, so what if it only works after an additional activiation of another power - you had to be high up, usually with Tail Wind to make it work in the first place. But then...there were times, quite a few, where I'd find myself very high up, knew there were enemies waiting at the bottom, so would just step off the platform, then Dive Bomb down. I think on Uranus iirc? (sorry, it's been a while) but that has a low ceiling, so again, you couldn't do it if you had to activate Tail Wind first. Sigh. 

Even before the 'new and improve' pyscho-tail wind, I often found I would get stuck on lintels and beams with Zephyr when inside so instead of using her as she should - in the air, I was already just running through maps instead. Haven't taken her to the Plains yet. 

The very first time I took her out with her new powers, I didn't mind that they'd combined two powers in one (before I realised that Vortex was removed - what happened to people with that mod in their builds?) until I worked out how clunky it was to use. And I didn't mind because they'd given her a new, cool offensive power - then I used it. It looked so awesome! And was so tragically underwhelming. It's 'okay-ish' for me at the moment because I'm still levelling the prime (not power levelling this one, just doing lowbie missions and taking my time and chilling) and it's 'okay-ish' against lowbie enemies. It's not just that it's a low power level, so doesn't really pack that much of a punch, it seems to have quite a narrow arc of effectiveness. 

On the shield, yeah, I'm not so sure. I've never used Zephyr as a tank build (was going to when I got enough syndicate to get the mods), but I know a good few people specifically used her as a tank with that shield, but it sounds like the energy drain has nerfed that? I use it when I or the party are undermanned and need to do something non-combat related, like revive or use a console or something, to protect me for those precious few seconds. 

I know I haven't really offered any plausible solutions but that's my point of view from a more casual player. 

I'm going to be honest here.....I'm not really sure what you're trying to say in your post. I mean it seems like you're trying to say you like the changes, but you also don't. It could just be my lack of sleep and still being sick, but I'm still not sure. Either way thanks for your feedback I suppose. If you could though maybe clarify what your post is trying to indicate?

[CrankyCat]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

I'm going to be honest here.....I'm not really sure what you're trying to say in your post. I mean it seems like you're trying to say you like the changes, but you also don't. It could just be my lack of sleep and still being sick, but I'm still not sure. Either way thanks for your feedback I suppose. If you could though maybe clarify what your post is trying to indicate?

I hate the changes they made. They make me frakking sad. They made one of my favourite abilities S#&$e-tastic. In fact, I'm so disappointed in them, I joined a forum I've never posted in, just to say how much I don't like them. When I generally don't do forums :p

Edited March 24, 2018 by CrankyCat

[helioth137]

How about buffing divebomb so it's damage is scaled based on your melee damage ?

And making an augment or simply an alternate skill mode for 2; air burst... air suction... like how you can switch arrows for ivara you now get 2 skills... the first one rag dolls away... the second pulls in.

The last thing I feel like she needs is some group utility, or a skill which makes enemies more vulnerable to damage.