Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[FriendlyxD1]

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Yes, I have only played male frames, taking role playing seriously. The only male frames I have yet to unlock are Inaros and Limbo, because did not find their skillsets to be interesting upon reading them. Are you trying to argue by authority of owning more frames here? Please elaborate on how Ash spamming 2 and 3 is not overpowered, or Excalibur spamming 2 to stun-lock entire room of enemies are not overpowered first.

 Once again, not Warframe. You're expecting a different game. You are not your Warframe. You are the Operator, a Tenno, remotely controlling nuclear powered war suits of destruction. There is no reason to only play male frames. You've missed something really critical here, that new players do, but you are MR 17. Also, your unlimited use spam abilities very much sound like solo play, with 1 person spawn rates in easy mode allowing you to not run into tons of Parasitic Eximus' and Nullifier Bubbles. Did you seriously play the whole time in solo mode while roleplaying? Your videos had less enemies than I have ever even seen in one room, in the whole entire map! Watched the Ash video, even though I think Ash is garbage. You built a covert lethality build, and are mad it does what you built it to do? Why did you build it then?

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Did I? The only frames that I have posted nerf suggestions for are Ash, Excalibur, and Volt, all of which I have played enough to comment on comfortably.

But you said in an earlier post:

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Again, just because I presented those 3 does not mean they are the ones that should be prioritized to be nerfed.

Also the giant text makes the paragraphs hard to read. 

On 3/21/2018 at 7:13 PM, Checht said:

(I usually stop using such frames once I realize their abilities can be abused e.g. Wukong, Loki).

WHAT? Just don't abuse whatever it is. You have to put mods in them. Or they don't work. The frame is almost nothing. The mods are almost everything. You build a covert lethality build and seem angry it did what you built it to do. Solo play with almost no enemies at all, Role playing, male frames only, stopping using frames once you learn their abilities because someone could use a ability a lot. This is why people keep explaining to you what Warframe is about. What game are you trying to play in place of Warframe, inside Warframe???

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Please elaborate on how Ash spamming 2 and 3 is not overpowered, or Excalibur spamming 2 to stun-lock entire room of enemies are not overpowered first.

I already addressed Ash. Next is Excal. I see nothing wrong here. You put a little bit of range, and a little bit of duration on excal. OK. The question you should be asking yourself, is why in the world are you building Radial Blind instead of Exalted Blade??? Isn't that boring to do? Also, there's like 10 enemies in the whole room, not 80. Solo again. There is no chaos. Super boring. 

1 hour ago, Checht said:

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

You should come into Warframe expecting Warframe. Not Borderlands, or Left For Dead 2, or any other game that caps levels at 100 because it's a convenient number or anything. And it's not a PVP game, the different "classes" don't have to check and balance each other to prevent someone from "losing a match" because another "class" is so much stronger than them. 

Another comment speaking on behalf of DE on "this is how Warframe should be", I see.

This is what Warframe IS. You clearly don't get it. You clearly don't understand, you have all the weakest frames in the whole game. No, this is what everyone keeps telling you "Warframe is about". What game are you trying to play in place of Warframe, inside Warframe??? YOU are the one posting on here, saying how Warframe should be, and specifically mentioning other titles as indications of how you are trained to believe games should be and are comparing them to, saying they should be similar to what you are used to: 

On 3/21/2018 at 7:13 PM, Checht said:

(Left 4 Dead, Borderlands, or even Dynasty Warriors)

 

1 hour ago, Checht said:

I can only disagree. I don't think giving all frames the means to turn off enemy interaction permanently and scale up indefinitely is a good idea.

  That's not what the other Warframes do. You built your Ash that way. Other frames actually kill them, not just cc them so you can then kill them. You literally avoided all the powerful frames in the game. I said scale up the enemies (indefinitely, as you implied) not warframes. The enemies are too easy. The super weak frames need buffs so they can stand on their own two feet like other frames. It's as if you don't even know about what has already happened with Ash and his ultimate and his last nerf and his rework.

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Yeah, I just don't think sitting for hours on Mot waiting for enemies to scale up by exploiting easily abuse-able abilities is fun. If you do, all the best to you.

In your role playing solo mode, it really will take hours to see a decent amount of enemies. What is clear here is that you don't understand what Warframe is about, you want it to change to be like other games, and you don't want Warframes to have abilities.

Edited April 21, 2018 by FriendlyxD1

[fluffysnowcap]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Atlas has a whole kit that helps him survive with golems to divide the attention of enemies to not only target himself, and his rubble mechanic that restores health and adds armor, and he can create a wall of rock to block attacks from a direction (and then send that wall crashing into enemies). While I haven't played him, from looking at his kit, that's what I can see.

Excalibur has to... avoid damage (and has no innate way to heal himself). It's a good thing he's got invincibility during his dash into the thick of battle down narrow corridors... and then he gets to blind all the enemies so they don't trounce him immediately once he gets there. His radial javelin does damage, but stuns enemies that survive. He needs his CC to survive. Obstacles prevent enemies from being hit by these things, so they can just pop out from around the corner and be just as lethal as ever. I played Excalibur exclusively through the star chart, solo, up to Europa. I quickly sought out how to build Rhino, and then Inaros... because Excalibur felt like he was falling WAY behind in survivability.

In my opinion, they're balanced against each other, when you look at the bigger picture - and Excalibur still feels like he's weaker overall.

Thank you, you have said this point better than me.

It is posable to make Excalibur survive like atles but it requires 3 exsculive mods, 4 very rare ones and 9 forms, a weapon and warframe potato. The cost is beyond most players and it douse not make him anywhere near as survivable as Oberon, and I rate Oberon at half the survivability if atles.

[Checht]

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

 Once again, not Warframe. You're expecting a different game. You are not your Warframe. You are the Operator, a Tenno, remotely controlling nuclear powered war suits of destruction. There is no reason to only play male frames. You've missed something really critical here, that new players do, but you are MR 17. Also, your unlimited use spam abilities very much sound like solo play, with 1 person spawn rates in easy mode allowing you to not run into tons of Parasitic Eximus' and Nullifier Bubbles. Did you seriously play the whole time in solo mode while roleplaying? Your videos had less enemies than I have ever even seen in one room, in the whole entire map! Watched the Ash video, even though I think Ash is garbage. You built a covert lethality build, and are mad it does what you built it to do? Why did you build it then?

Arguing from the "authority" of having higher MR again? Noted. If I am the operator, I wouldn't like to channel my consciousness into a female body, it's just my personal preference in role playing.

Edit: The reason I'm MR 17 is because I'm lazy to level up MR fodders just for the sake of MR. Once I've passed MR 16, there's little reason to further increase my MR, since I already have access to everything in the game (highest Riven MR is 16).

Other than that, another "nerf yourself, don't optimize" comment? Okay.

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

But you said in an earlier post:

2 hours ago, Checht said:

Again, just because I presented those 3 does not mean they are the ones that should be prioritized to be nerfed.

Also the giant text makes the paragraphs hard to read. 

And did you understand that sentence? How does that sentence imply that all abilities should be nerfed? That sentence is there because I foresaw there will be a lot of other players responding with "why nerf these? [Insert warframe] is even more overpowered".

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

WHAT? Just don't abuse whatever it is. You have to put mods in them. Or they don't work. The frame is almost nothing. The mods are almost everything. You build a covert lethality build and seem angry it did what you built it to do. Solo play with almost no enemies at all, Role playing, male frames only, stopping using frames once you learn their abilities because someone could use a ability a lot. This is why people keep explaining to you what Warframe is about. What game are you trying to play in place of Warframe, inside Warframe???

Another "nerf yourself"? Okay. "This is how Warframe should be" again? Okay.

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

I already addressed Ash. Next is Excal. I see nothing wrong here. You put a little bit of range, and a little bit of duration on excal. OK. The question you should be asking yourself, is why in the world are you building Radial Blind instead of Exalted Blade??? Isn't that boring to do? Also, there's like 10 enemies in the whole room, not 80. Solo again. There is no chaos. Super boring. 

Even if there were 80 enemies, they'll all be stunned with a single Radial Blind too, no? I do Solo so that the test is more controlled. If I were to do it in a team there might teammates buffing me or killing off the enemies before I can demonstrate anything.

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

This is what Warframe IS. You clearly don't get it. You clearly don't understand, you have all the weakest frames in the whole game. No, this is what everyone keeps telling you "Warframe is about". What game are you trying to play in place of Warframe, inside Warframe??? YOU are the one posting on here, saying how Warframe should be, and specifically mentioning other titles as indications of how you are trained to believe games should be and are comparing them to, saying they should be similar to what you are used to: 

Yes, I am voicing my personal preference on how I would like Warframe to be. They are not major changes, just some nerfs to balance frame abilities. Is there anything wrong?

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

That's not what the other Warframes do. You built your Ash that way. Other frames actually kill them, not just cc them so you can then kill them. You literally avoided all the powerful frames in the game. I said scale up the enemies (indefinitely, as you implied) not warframes. The enemies are too easy. The super weak frames need buffs so they can stand on their own two feet like other frames. It's as if you don't even know about what has already happened with Ash and his ultimate and his last nerf and his rework.

And do you understand why I avoid powerful frames in the game? Because I like challenge. Ash with his optimized build still has no challenge.

1 hour ago, FriendlyxD1 said:

In your role playing solo mode, it really will take hours to see a decent amount of enemies. What is clear here is that you don't understand what Warframe is about, you want it to change to be like other games, and you don't want Warframes to have abilities.

I usually play public. Solo is just for demonstration so that there's no external variables where teammates might have killed off most of the enemies before I can demonstrate anything. Using strawman to say that I don't want Warframes to have abilities? Okay.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Checht

[Checht]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Atlas has a whole kit that helps him survive with golems to divide the attention of enemies to not only target himself, and his rubble mechanic that restores health and adds armor, and he can create a wall of rock to block attacks from a direction (and then send that wall crashing into enemies). While I haven't played him, from looking at his kit, that's what I can see.

Excalibur has to... avoid damage (and has no innate way to heal himself). It's a good thing he's got invincibility during his dash into the thick of battle down narrow corridors... and then he gets to blind all the enemies so they don't trounce him immediately once he gets there. His radial javelin does damage, but stuns enemies that survive. He needs his CC to survive. Obstacles prevent enemies from being hit by these things, so they can just pop out from around the corner and be just as lethal as ever. I played Excalibur exclusively through the star chart, solo, up to Europa. I quickly sought out how to build Rhino, and then Inaros... because Excalibur felt like he was falling WAY behind in survivability.

In my opinion, they're balanced against each other, when you look at the bigger picture - and Excalibur still feels like he's weaker overall.

 

That's true, Excalibur doesn't have an innate way to heal himself unless you synergize Lifesteal or Exodia Might with Radial Blind, whereas Atlas has innate healing with Rubble. Excal still has some ways to tank with Exalted Blade though, as compared to Atlas' armor. So I think they will kinda balance out if Excal has a health buff for his Radial Blind nerf. Atlas' wall only sounds good on paper though. In practice, it isn't really that effective.

The current optimal way for Excalibur to survive, which is to spam Radial Blind, is too unengaging. I would prefer him to be reworked to be a little tankier and more melee-centric.

Rhino has excessive tanking ability as well as a very potent CC (as large as Radial Blind), so Excal naturally still looks weaker. However, I wouldn't say that with the current state of Radial Blind, that he's weaker than Atlas or Oberon. Being able to spam to lock down whole room of enemies is much more powerful than having some limited means to tank.

[fluffysnowcap]

6 minutes ago, Checht said:

Arguing from the "authority" of having higher MR again? Noted. If I am the operator, I wouldn't like to channel my consciousness into a female body, it's just my personal preference in role playing.

Already arncerd this

1 hour ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Your frame is just a tool, all that matters is the operator. Don't limit your selth like that, as a lot of the best frames are female presenting like natah. ( joke no offence intended)

Also try reading what @(PS4)AyinDygra

Said, as its a very good brake down of the new to mid player.

[(XBOX)Sheady]

On 3/21/2018 at 10:13 PM, Checht said:

I had a fruitful discussion on my thread regarding the lack of endgame difficulty recently.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/934547-lack-of-endgame-difficulty-causes-implications-and-suggestions/
One of the ideas is to introduce level 80-100 missions outside of Sortie 3. The general consensus in the thread regarding introducing such levels or hiking up the endgame difficulty is that players would deviate towards frames with overpowered abilities that can still cheese through such content, reducing frame diversity. This is a sign that some frame rebalancing (nerfing) needs to be done as a good game design should have well-balanced playable characters.

While I think that the priority for DE is to first introduce the level 80-100 endgame missions in order to collect warframe usage statistics and metrics to have objective evidence to buff/nerf frames, it could be an interesting topic to discuss first-hand in this thread. Listed below are some warframes and abilities that I think should be nerfed. Keep in mind that the frames included are frames that I have used enough to discuss with confidence. Those that are not included does not imply that they should not be nerfed. Without further ado, let me start with

 

Ash

Ash was my main frame when I first started playing as he looks like a badass ninja with sick abs. However, once I got used to using him, I realised how mindless it can be to play as Ash due to his abilities. This is one of the frames where I stopped playing as due to him being overpowered.

Smoke Screen

Problem: This is obvious and probably discussed many times before. Currently, there is no enemy that I am aware of that can effectively damage you once you go invisible. Enemies just attack in the general direction where they last heard your sound, and you are likely already out of the way. With Zenurik’s Energizing Dash, this is a low-cost ability and you can turn practically permanently invisible with repeated casting. This makes Ash an immortal frame with no challenge.

Nerf Suggestion: Reduce invisibility duration to slightly less than the time to revive a teammate and introduce a cooldown timer for this skill (much like abilities in MOBAs). In my opinion, 30 seconds would be an appropriate cooldown time for Ash. This would restrict this skill to mostly function as a means to get out of a sticky situation or staying undetected before launching an ambush on enemies up close. I believe this is what DE originally intended Smoke Screen to function, rather than being a permanently invisible frame that casually picks off enemies one-by-one.

Edit: Due to the unpopular response to cooldown, it seems that increasing energy consumption would be a better way to go. I'd still reduce the invis duration, and energy consumption can be tuned up to 100 energy.

(Fatal) Teleport + Covert Lethality

Problem: Makes Ash able to kill any enemy regardless of level. Paired with Smoke Screen and Fatal Teleport augment, you can get by most missions with just pressing 2 buttons – Smoke Screen -> Fatal Teleport.

Nerf Suggestion: Have Covert Lethality only work for Stealth Finishers.

Video evidence here

 

Volt

Volt is my favourite frame due to the versatility of his skillset. His ability to go melee reliably with Shocking Speed, function as a sniper with (Static) Electric Shield, go run and gun with (Current) Electric Shield, and some CC abilities with Shock and Discharge makes Volt an interesting frame to play for me. However, I find that this particular skill too easy to abuse to survive endgame content

Discharge

Problem: Discharge is a large AoE, long-duration stun. In addition, with the Capacitance augment mod, it regenerates your shield and provides overshield. Thus, you are basically free from threats for some time (easily ~8 seconds with a duration mod) after casting this skill. With maxed Energizing Dash, it grants you 150 energy in 30 seconds. With Streamline equipped, you can cast 2 Discharges within the period of 30 seconds and still have surplus energy, and that is assuming you do not get energy orbs from dead enemies. This makes it easy to survive endgame content just by spamming Discharge, and overshadows interesting playstyles that the other 3 skills provide.

Nerf Suggestion: Introduce a cooldown time for Discharge of 30 seconds. It fits with this skill anyway, as you are supposed to need some time to restore your charge after “discharging”. This would require players to use Discharge smartly, to judge when to use it for maximum advantage, rather than just spamming it. If DE wants to be fancy they can introduce a “Discharged” debuff of 30 seconds after casting Discharge, which would only function to lock the Discharge skill (much like Phoenix Renewal).

Edit: Due to the unpopular opinion on cooldown (again), it seems that the better way is to increase energy consumption. However, this ability already consumes 100 energy, which is the base energy cap of some frames. A way to do it might be to cost 100 energy on initial cast, then drain maybe 50 energy for X amount of seconds after cast. This way, you still can cast with 100 energy left. You will only be affected when you have energy surplus.

Gameplay video here

 

Excalibur

I might be stepping over my boundary here as Excalibur is the least used frame out of the 3 presented here. However, I still find this skill to be obviously overpowered and can be spammed to easily get through endgame content

Radial Blind

Problem: From the description, Radial Blind is supposed to “blind all enemies in a small radius” and “for several seconds”. However, by “small radius” it is a range of 25 m, longer than most AoE skills, and by “several seconds” it is 15 seconds, which is even longer than Volt’s Discharge. With Energizing Dash, it is again a low-cost ability that can be spammed to immobilize enemies indefinitely.

 Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

Edit: Many responses are that the AoE will be too small. However, many do not realize that compared to Petrify (which is also an AoE stun which requires line of sight), the AoE of Radial Blind is 19 times the AoE of Petrify (or Petrify's AoE is only 5.23% the AoE of Radial Blind). Petrify costs more too, at 75 energy compared to Radial Blind's 50. The only thing Petrify is better at is the extra 5 seconds stun, which is irrelevant since enemies would likely have died within the 15 second duration of Radial Blind anyway. Plus, after nerf, the AoE of nerfed Radial Blind is still about twice the AoE of Petrify. See the figure below.

Video evidence here

 

This concludes that list of frames and abilities that I feel qualified enough to comment on in this thread. For you to understand my perspective, I think Oberon is the perfectly balanced frame at the moment. He is level-80-100-viable, great abilities that synergizes well with team, and no spam-able skills that totally remove threats. I hope DE will balance frames with Oberon set as the standard.

You might also realize that most skills presented above are spammable due to the current energy economy provided by Energizing Dash. One might argue that nerfing energy regen will mitigate this problem. However, I foresee the outcome upon nerfing energy regen to be undesirable. Players will just save up energy for the OP skills, and the non-OP skills (e.g. Volt’s first 3 skills) will just be overshadowed again. Thus, let’s keep the discussion in this thread in terms of nerfing the skills. I think adding cooldown timer to be a good way to prevent spamming of OP skills.

Again, the list is not complete, as I feel that I am unqualified to comment on frames that may be OP but did not use extensively (I usually stop using such frames once I realize their abilities can be abused e.g. Wukong, Loki). Thus, I welcome everyone to contribute to the thread and update on the list. The context is that if endgame content with sufficient difficulty is introduced (e.g. level 80-100 missions other than Sortie 3), what frames will be over-represented, what abilities will be spammed for easy survivability? Give your reasons and nerf suggestions. Fire away!

 

Edit:

1. Posted gameplay videos to better illustrate my points.

2. Highlighted important statements for lazy readers.

 

Edit 2:

From the discussions in this thread so far, it seems that I need to do better to get my point across before being bogged down by red herrings. So, please read these guiding questions before posting.

1. Do you have any abilities that you can spam to survive level 150+ or 200+ content?

If yes, go on to the next question. If not, good for you, you must be very skilled to be able to survive at such content without resorting to spamming those skills, and I can't prove otherwise. There's no need to go on.

2. Do you think those abilities should be nerfed, so that level 80-100 is the appropriate endgame challenge?

If yes, post your nerf suggetions. If no, we just fundamentally disagree, we can start another thread in the "General" section to discuss this. But first, let me just give a few reasons why I think they should be nerfed.

i) If spamming those skills is the optimal "strategy" to survive level 150+, it is the optimal "strategy" to survive low level too to begin with. You just do not do so before you reach level 150+ because it is not fun. I want the optimal strategy and tactics in Warframe to be fun and engaging.

ii) Difficulty at level 150+ comes purely from enemies being able to oneshot you with any stray bullets, which many players complain about. Enemy damage is required to scale up to this extent for any challenge precisely due to spammable hard CC/invisibility/invincibility skills. Imagine any PVE horde action games (Left 4 Dead, Borderlands, or even Dynasty Warriors) and give your character permanent invisibility or the ability to cast radial blind (or any hard CC in general) every 5 seconds. Where would difficulty come from in this case?

iii) Balance between frames and abilities. If we were to buff other frames and abilities instead, see issues i) and ii).

Extra question: Can you read enlarged, bolded texts?

If yes, please read the enlarged, bolded texts in the original post. If not, please see an optometrist.

I can understand many of the gripes however the warframe power creep is too far gone. Just look at one of the more recent frames released, octavia. She has CC, DPS, Buffs to melee speed, sprint speed, Multishot, and invisibility. Better yet look at the weapons introduced, the baza with hunter munitions can easily melt 100+ enemies. Personally i dont mind it too much in the current state of things. There is (usually) a genuine power fantasy, one that is in games like Diablo, yet is missing from many other MMOs. The other issue would be how abysmal the grind would become if lv 100s were considered endgame like they were years ago. I mean imagine farming for the hema and not being able to destroy entire tile sets at those levels. 

[fluffysnowcap]

3 minutes ago, Checht said:

That's true, Excalibur doesn't have an innate way to heal himself unless you synergize Lifesteal or Exodia Might 

Or 180% power strength with a "chromatic blade" and a "healing return"

[Sintag]

Cooldowns.  In Warframe.

April Fool's Day was a long time ago.

In all seriousness, as others have said, you're pretty much picking on the balanced Warframes.  I came here expecting to see Ember, Equinox, maybe Octavia, not...these three.  Hell if anything, Volt's underpowered and his true use is being best fisherman in all the lands.*

I know you hate seeing these answers, also, but I'm gonna be entirely, entirely blunt with you here.  Warframe is a horde shooter.  You kill hordes by the horde.  There's nothing wrong with this style of gameplay.  It's what we've evolved into.  Want a better idea of how far into Horde Shooter we've gotten?  Play Sanctuary Onslaught.  It's about as horde-shooty as horde shooters get.

Heck, since you want to make this more like Dark Souls, here's a bit of advice, from someone who's never played a Soulsborne.

Never stop learning.

You wanna make Warframe challenging for yourself?  Stop learning how best to break it over your knee.  Stop learning what weaponry's the best, how best your kit synergizes unto itself, stop learning how you can mod to bring out the best in everything, how to smash through enemies by the truckload.  Stop learning.  Even better, nerf yourself voluntarily.  You want a challenge?  Make it one.

Oh, and the fact level 150-200 has become the de facto limit?  That's because we, as a playerbase, enjoy pushing ourselves to the uppermost limit and seeing what comes of it.  Might not be what DE intended the end-game to be, but that's still fine and, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't affect my enjoyment, knowing that some crazy squad can go well over 200 levels for their enemies before having to bug out.  The fact we go into Survivals, generally meant for 20-30 minutes, and can go for literal hours, is pretty cool.  Means people have learned the abilities of their Frames and push them to the upper limits.

Or, in a tl;dr: You've hit the three frames that are actually in a decent spot/need a small buff, Warframe is Warframe, not Dark Souls, and pushing it past "endgame" doesn't immediately mean something needs to be stamped into the dirt.

* - This is actually really sarcastic, his best role is either providing Speed to the team to get to Extraction quicker, providing a quick cover/offense augment with Electric Shield, or CC via stunning with Discharge.  That his passive makes fishing much easier is the cherry on the utility cake that is Volt.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Sintag

[fluffysnowcap]

@Sintag you missed the past where his shield can keep you safe when mining.

[Hoangviet1996]

Adding more insults to injury, the Dev removed Excal Radial Blind Cooldown timer in the last update. 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Hoangviet1996

[NoRainNoRainbow]

Ash spamming 2 and 3 isn't overpowered because to clear a room would take a really long time, Mesa does that in a second by pressing 4, and doesn't need to be invisible to survive because all the enemies are dead already.

[Checht]

1 hour ago, NoRainNoRainbow said:

Ash spamming 2 and 3 isn't overpowered because to clear a room would take a really long time, Mesa does that in a second by pressing 4, and doesn't need to be invisible to survive because all the enemies are dead already.

I am not judging how overpowered a frame is by how fast it can kill, I judge it by how easy it is to survive. Those who judge it by how fast it can kill are those who are calling for nerfs because some other players are getting more kills than them. Also, damage frames would still eventually hit a wall when enemies have scaled up to be tanky enough.

Besides, look at how "well received" it is when DE makes the difficulty about "killing fast" and not "to survive" in Onslaught (Efficiency counter).

15 hours ago, Sintag said:

I know you hate seeing these answers, also, but I'm gonna be entirely, entirely blunt with you here.  Warframe is a horde shooter.  You kill hordes by the horde.  There's nothing wrong with this style of gameplay.  It's what we've evolved into.  Want a better idea of how far into Horde Shooter we've gotten?  Play Sanctuary Onslaught.  It's about as horde-shooty as horde shooters get.

Not really hating them, it's just tedious to respond to points which has little to do with the discussion. Atlas and Oberon are still killing hordes, aren't they? Not being able to turn off enemy AI permanently doesn't make it not a horde shooter game. Even Dynasty Warriors doesn't have a way to turn permanently invisible or permanently CC-lock enemies.

15 hours ago, Sintag said:

Heck, since you want to make this more like Dark Souls, here's a bit of advice, from someone who's never played a Soulsborne.

Not being able to turn off enemy interaction permanently doesn't turn it into Dark Souls... This is called a slippery slope fallacy.

15 hours ago, Sintag said:

You wanna make Warframe challenging for yourself?  Stop learning how best to break it over your knee.  Stop learning what weaponry's the best, how best your kit synergizes unto itself, stop learning how you can mod to bring out the best in everything, how to smash through enemies by the truckload.  Stop learning.  Even better, nerf yourself voluntarily.  You want a challenge?  Make it one.

I think I have responded enough to "nerf yourself" comments. If you don't think optimizing your character is part of the fun of a game with character customization, all the best to you.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Checht

[Dragazer]

On 21/03/2018 at 10:13 PM, Checht said:

Excalibur

I might be stepping over my boundary here as Excalibur is the least used frame out of the 3 presented here. However, I still find this skill to be obviously overpowered and can be spammed to easily get through endgame content

Radial Blind

Problem: From the description, Radial Blind is supposed to “blind all enemies in a small radius” and “for several seconds”. However, by “small radius” it is a range of 25 m, longer than most AoE skills, and by “several seconds” it is 15 seconds, which is even longer than Volt’s Discharge. With Energizing Dash, it is again a low-cost ability that can be spammed to immobilize enemies indefinitely.

 Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

Edit: Many responses are that the AoE will be too small. However, many do not realize that compared to Petrify (which is also an AoE stun which requires line of sight), the AoE of Radial Blind is 19 times the AoE of Petrify (or Petrify's AoE is only 5.23% the AoE of Radial Blind). Petrify costs more too, at 75 energy compared to Radial Blind's 50. The only thing Petrify is better at is the extra 5 seconds stun, which is irrelevant since enemies would likely have died within the 15 second duration of Radial Blind anyway. Plus, after nerf, the AoE of nerfed Radial Blind is still about twice the AoE of Petrify. See the figure below.

 

 

Just LOL at you!

They ended up buffing Excal RB by removing the CD.

On 20/04/2018 at 10:27 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Beasts of the Sanctuary: Update 22.18.0

Changes

• Removed Excalibur’s 3 second cooldown on Radial Blind.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Dragazer

[fluffysnowcap]

24 minutes ago, Checht said:

Not really hating them, it's just tedious to respond to points which has little to do with the discussion. Atlas and Oberon are still killing hordes, aren't they? Not being able to turn off enemy AI permanently doesn't make it not a horde shooter game. Even Dynasty Warriors doesn't have a way to turn permanently invisible or permanently CC-lock enemies.

There weapons kill not abilities, please keep up

[Checht]

8 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Just LOL at you!

They ended up buffing Excal RB by removing the CD.

On 4/20/2018 at 10:27 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Beasts of the Sanctuary: Update 22.18.0

Changes

• Removed Excalibur’s 3 second cooldown on Radial Blind.

Yeah, the short cooldown of 3 seconds was never a big issue to begin with. Having such a small cooldown doesn't really prevent Excalibur from CC-locking the whole room. I have more issues with its range and duration.

[Dragazer]

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Yeah, the short cooldown of 3 seconds was never a big issue to begin with. Having such a small cooldown doesn't really prevent Excalibur from CC-locking the whole room. I have more issues with its range and duration.

You forget it's a LoS ability, you need to have vision of the enemy for it to work.

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

On 4/21/2018 at 5:05 PM, Checht said:

Yes, I have only played male frames, taking role playing seriously. The only male frames I have yet to unlock are Inaros and Limbo, because I did not find their skillsets to be interesting upon reading them. Are you trying to argue by authority of owning more frames here?

I didn't realize there was so much of the game that you haven't actually experienced. It's quite shocking given how drastic your initial proposed changes are compared to the scope of the game itself. Although I disagreed with your ideas, I did respect your opinion as valid. Unfortunately, I find that it now holds little merit for the discussion you desire. I'm sorry but I feel it unnecessary to continue following this topic.

Best of luck to you. 

[Ventura_Highway]

On 3/21/2018 at 9:13 PM, Checht said:

Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

Just as a thought, eyeballing this I think the range decrease is slightly too much, but it might lead to a nifty synergy happening with Slash Dash.

Slash Dash grants health invincibility while it is functioning, so theoretically, it seems to me you could slash dash into the range of an intended target, radial blind then go to town. Bullet Jumping, the alternative, doesn't have the invincibility or knockdown of Slash Dash. Hence, Slash Dash becomes more salient.

Implicit synergies such as this I regard as elegant.

[Checht]

2 hours ago, (PS4)the-creeperman said:

I didn't realize there was so much of the game that you haven't actually experienced. It's quite shocking given how drastic your initial proposed changes are compared to the scope of the game itself. Although I disagreed with your ideas, I did respect your opinion as valid. Unfortunately, I find that it now holds little merit for the discussion you desire. I'm sorry but I feel it unnecessary to continue following this topic.

Best of luck to you. 

Which is why the original point of this thread is to have other players who are more experienced with other frames to post their nerf suggestions. I have clarified many times that the three frames that I've posted are those which I've played enough to comment comfortably. This is also why I didn't post nerf suggestions for Octavia or Ivara, even though they seem to be mostly regarded to be more op than the frames I've posted.

My criterion is simple, if the best strategy to win for a frame can be described by simple AI pseudo codes (hiding them as I've posted them many times in this thread):

Spoiler

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

or

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

It needs to be changed. If you feel that objectively judging these frames that I have played by this simple criterion is somehow invalidated by not having played some other frames, it's fine. I don't expect to be able to convince you otherwise. I can only disagree.

1 hour ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Just as a thought, eyeballing this I think the range decrease is slightly too much, but it might lead to a nifty synergy happening with Slash Dash.

Slash Dash grants health invincibility while it is functioning, so theoretically, it seems to me you could slash dash into the range of an intended target, radial blind then go to town. Bullet Jumping, the alternative, doesn't have the invincibility or knockdown of Slash Dash. Hence, Slash Dash becomes more salient.

Implicit synergies such as this I regard as elegant.

That's what I have in my mind too, and I have also discussed this synergy some where in this thread (Edit: in the previous page). Will be updating the original post to include this point on Slash Dash synergy.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Checht

[fluffysnowcap]

I think you should learn a lot more about The game, and many play some or most of the female grams to learn what broken is, as right now depending on how you identify them you may or may not play with equinox, the most broken man in the game and they fall below the women.

[TKDancer]

On 4/21/2018 at 8:01 PM, fluffysnowcap said:

Or 180% power strength with a "chromatic blade" and a "healing return"

u usually kill too fast with that to actually heal so lifestrike is still better for excal

[MickThejaguar]

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Which is why the original point of this thread is to have other players who are more experienced with other frames to post their nerf suggestions. I have clarified many times that the three frames that I've posted are those which I've played enough to comment comfortably. This is also why I didn't post nerf suggestions for Octavia or Ivara, even though they seem to be mostly regarded to be more op than the frames I've posted.

My criterion is simple, if the best strategy to win for a frame can be described by simple AI pseudo codes (hiding them as I've posted them many times in this thread):

That's the problem with this post. You didn't want to have a discussion about whether these (or any) warframes needed a nerf. You just wanted a circle jerk of people complaining how overpowered certain frames were. Not everyone believes that every warframe in the game is busted and needs a nerf so you shouldn't have made this post expecting a warm welcome of people clamoring to have their favorite frames kit gutted. All of your problems could easily be solved without nerfing every frame in the game. You want a heavier focus on mobility and gunplay? Then find a frame that suits your needs and stop trying to kill gameplay diversity. Sure some people will use builds to cheese the game but those people have no effect on you enjoying the game the way you want to. If you can make a video showing off you playing Volt without spamming his ult and instead being mobile and using more gunplay, then what reason does DE have to nerf him? Just play the way you want and let others play the way they want.

[fluffysnowcap]

6 hours ago, TKDancer said:

u usually kill too fast with that to actually heal so lifestrike is still better for excal

No. Healing return works on status effects, and a excal with chromatic blade, 180% power strength gets a status effect on every hit.

[Checht]

8 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

That's the problem with this post. You didn't want to have a discussion about whether these (or any) warframes needed a nerf.

Didn't I already go to lengths to explain and elaborate on why they needed nerfs? I have even made videos and charts to demonstrate them. To those who were asking why are the nerfs needed in this thread, I have explained consistently about my criterion for nerfs.

8 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

You just wanted a circle jerk of people complaining how overpowered certain frames were.

I wanted other players who are more experienced with other frames (which I lack the experience on) to elaborate on why they think those frames are overpowered and suggest some nerfs. The "Warframes and Abilities" section of the feedback forum is already flooded with threads asking for buffs. If you want to see a circle jerk, look over there.

8 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

All of your problems could easily be solved without nerfing every frame in the game. You want a heavier focus on mobility and gunplay? Then find a frame that suits your needs and stop trying to kill gameplay diversity.

Slippery slippery slope, when did I say I want to nerf every frame in the game? The "diversity" that would be killed is only the "playstyle" which depends on spamming 1 ability to win. It is up to DE to decide whether this is allowable. To me, this is bad game design, similar to Naramon 1.0's permanent invisibility.

8 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Sure some people will use builds to cheese the game but those people have no effect on you enjoying the game the way you want to.

I am not talking about other people using these frames this way. The thing that I complain about is I cannot enjoy using these frames when these overpowered abilities are there. See how many other players are complaining about "underpowered" frames and asking for buffs so that they can have fun playing them? I am complaining about overpowered frames and asking for nerfs so that I can have fun playing them.

8 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

If you can make a video showing off you playing Volt without spamming his ult and instead being mobile and using more gunplay, then what reason does DE have to nerf him? Just play the way you want and let others play the way they want.

And being able to pull out a "get out of jail free" card whenever there's a risk of dying? Where is the challenge then? Manually counting to 30 seconds is a silly solution. I can only either not use the ability at all, or don't use the frame at all.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Checht

[fluffysnowcap]

@Checht Its time to stop.

You are asking for 3 poticule warframes that are already week and ablity focused to be nerfed, and you justification is that there better at ability than tanks.... Let that sink in, obron and Atles are tanks, ones a armor tank and the other is a support tank.

You're changes/total nerfs will require you to massisvly increase the tanking ablitys of ash, volt and Excalibur for them to remain viable.