Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[MickThejaguar]

58 minutes ago, Checht said:

Didn't I already go to lengths to explain and elaborate on why they needed nerfs? I have even made videos and charts to demonstrate them. To those who were asking why are the nerfs needed in this thread, I have explained consistently about my criterion for nerfs.

Myself and several others pointed out the flaws in a lot of your assertions and you either willfully ignored them or dismissed them altogether. The usage of validity of most of your videos was debunked. You tried to use comparisons to other warframes that you believe to be balanced but these are false equivalencies as you're comparing warframes with entirely different means of survivability. The CC of a frame like Excal does not need to be equal in terms of strength to warframes like Oberon and Atlas, both of whom have healing and armor buffs built into their kits. People have also mentioned that DE tried cooldowns at one point in time and decided it slowed gameplay too much. People would literally just hide until they could use their abilities again. These are all valid points but you don't want to hear any of that. That's not having a discussion. 

1 hour ago, Checht said:

I am not talking about other people using these frames this way. The thing that I complain about is I cannot enjoy using these frames when these overpowered abilities are there. See how many other players are complaining about "underpowered" frames and asking for buffs so that they can have fun playing them? I am complaining about overpowered frames and asking for nerfs so that I can have fun playing them.

The difference between those two things is that people don't ask for frames to be buffed simply because they don't enjoy them. They ask for frames to be buffed when they don't perform up to par with similar frames. If a frame is underpowered, you don't have the option of simply using a different playstyle. You on the other hand are building your frames a specific way and using a specific playstyle and then asking for that frame to be nerfed because of decisions you made. These are not same situations so treating them as such is asinine.

1 hour ago, Checht said:

And being able to pull out a "get out of jail free" card whenever there's a risk of dying? Where is the challenge then? Manually counting to 30 seconds is a silly solution. I can only either not use the ability at all, or don't use the frame at all.

Except if you don't build your frame around the aforementioned "OP" abilities then they won't be powerful enough to be considered a "get out of jail free card". Or just play a frame that suits your playstyle.

[--GZ--Cegorach]

Instead of doing Nerf list, better do a Buff list...

[TKDancer]

6 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

No. Healing return works on status effects, and a excal with chromatic blade, 180% power strength gets a status effect on every hit.

yes, but u'll kill too fast to actually heal properly, u'd be getting 0-1 healing returns per killed enemy, ergo lifestrike is better or at least more reliable at actually healing

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

58 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

yes, but u'll kill too fast to actually heal properly, u'd be getting 0-1 healing returns per killed enemy, ergo lifestrike is better or at least more reliable at actually healing

Life strike drains per hit, you either use it unleveled or a single wave can drain your entire energy reserve...

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Life strike drains per hit, you either use it unleveled or a single wave can drain your entire energy reserve...

u can also use it in finishers to avoid hitting many enemies

[fluffysnowcap]

Healing Return  gives 11 health on max level not 0-1, I find that a chromatic build rocking healing return has considerably more sustain than a life strike build due to energy and the fact he benefits from CO.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

 

9 hours ago, Checht said:

17 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Sure some people will use builds to cheese the game but those people have no effect on you enjoying the game the way you want to.

I am not talking about other people using these frames this way. The thing that I complain about is I cannot enjoy using these frames when these overpowered abilities are there. See how many other players are complaining about "underpowered" frames and asking for buffs so that they can have fun playing them? I am complaining about overpowered frames and asking for nerfs so that I can have fun playing them.

I'm sorry but I genuinely don't understand this line of thinking, which is a problem since it is the backbone of this threads intent.

Subjective arguing points are hardly that compelling. "I don't like ____ so it should be changed so that I can enjoy it. My personal preference is most important to this topic." This is not an argument for balance changes nor is it compelling feedback. There is no reason this would be a good change for a global community, only that it would be good for you.

The comparison between overpowered frame commentary and underpowered frame commentary is entirely flawed in the above statement. The collection of threads asking for changes to be made to underpowered frames often do not call for changes due to personal reason, but belief that the subject in question does not have the capacity to reach viable levels as other frames, ie. they are underpowered and will see limited use compared to the rest.

This is not the same as your body post which indicates that a frames capacity goes beyond what you enjoy therefor it needs to be changed to suit your ideas for what "good game design" is.

Your play-style and your preference is no less or more important than anyone elses so when your proposed changes are purely to satisfy your personal play-style, it's not a very compelling piece of feedback.

[Checht]

7 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Myself and several others pointed out the flaws in a lot of your assertions and you either willfully ignored them or dismissed them altogether. The usage of validity of most of your videos was debunked.

Debunked how? The only reason I see is that the spawn rate is not high enough. I don't see how having 80 enemies while you are invisible is more of a threat than having 10 enemies that cannot see you though. Same goes for CC, 80 brain dead targets are as dangerous as 10 brain dead ones. Having more enemies doesn't stop Radial Blind from stunning the whole room. The other counter-argument brought up is just nullifiers or leechers. Again, if the only way the enemies can pose any sort of challenge is to disable the abilities all together, what does it say about how overpowered the abilities are? If you are not convinced, should I make videos of gameplay in pubs to show how spamming these abilities is still an easy win?

7 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

You tried to use comparisons to other warframes that you believe to be balanced but these are false equivalencies as you're comparing warframes with entirely different means of survivability. The CC of a frame like Excal does not need to be equal in terms of strength to warframes like Oberon and Atlas, both of whom have healing and armor buffs built into their kits.

Atlas and Oberon do not have means to scale indefinitely by playing like a simple AI. This serves as a useful comparison to show what kind of frames cannot fit into the simple AI criterion. Also, it's not like Atlas and Oberon are hard tanks anyway. Atlas' armor needs time to build up, and decays quite quickly too. Oberon's armor gain is also limited, you'll need to play carefully as him once enemy damage has scaled up enough to one-shot you. It's not like Excal and Ash doesn't have other means for survivability. Both are able to open up enemies to finishers, which pairs well with Lifesteal or Exodia Might to regain health. Excal can somewhat tank with Exalted Blade, Ash's nerfed Smoke Screen would function as an easy panic button too when things get too risky. Both will still have survivability, you just don't spam 1 skill for survivability.

7 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

People have also mentioned that DE tried cooldowns at one point in time and decided it slowed gameplay too much. People would literally just hide until they could use their abilities again. These are all valid points but you don't want to hear any of that. That's not having a discussion. 

And I responded that this point is valid for game modes where players can decide to proceed whenever they want to (e.g. Exterminate, Sabotage, Rescue, etc). Players wouldn't be able to hide for missions where enemies are swarming at you (e.g. Survival, Defense, Interception etc.). I've also stated that if cooldown is an unpopular option, the alternative would be too jack up the energy consumption for these skills, which I have updated in the original post. How is this not wanting to hear any of that? Who is the one dismissing points here?

7 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

The difference between those two things is that people don't ask for frames to be buffed simply because they don't enjoy them. They ask for frames to be buffed when they don't perform up to par with similar frames. If a frame is underpowered, you don't have the option of simply using a different playstyle. You on the other hand are building your frames a specific way and using a specific playstyle and then asking for that frame to be nerfed because of decisions you made. These are not same situations so treating them as such is asinine.

If we want to preserve diversity of all "playstyle", should DE have kept Naramon 1.0's permanent invisibility then? It is also a "playstyle" that has been removed. With these nerfs, the "playstyles" that would be affected are only those that spam these skills, it doesn't force it to only one specific build. Players still have choices of making a Seeking Shuriken or Bladestorm build etc. I am advocating for nerfing some frames so that they become down to par with frames that are still fun to play, so that it is possible for DE to introduce endgame at a finite level that focuses on survivability.

7 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

Except if you don't build your frame around the aforementioned "OP" abilities then they won't be powerful enough to be considered a "get out of jail free card". Or just play a frame that suits your playstyle.

The problem is you do not even have to specifically build for these skills for them to be op. Just have a Zenurik and you can pretty much pull out the "get out of jail free" card whenever you like with Ash. Same goes for Radial Blind. For Discharge, yes, you do have to specifically build for it, which is why at least I still can have fun playing Volt.

2 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Subjective arguing points are hardly that compelling. "I don't like ____ so it should be changed so that I can enjoy it. My personal preference is most important to this topic." This is not an argument for balance changes nor is it compelling feedback. There is no reason this would be a good change for a global community, only that it would be good for you.

Feedbacks are subjective. You are speaking for yourself when you are posting a feedback. Only those arrogant enough would claim to speak on behalf of the majority of the community.

For how it is a compelling feedback, I have set an objective measurement for my judgement, which is whether the optimal way to win is

Spoiler

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

or

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

If it is, it needs to be changed. This serves as a good yardstick for objective discussions in this thread. Players can either agree or disagree whether DE should balance abilities with the criterion that I have set. If they disagree, it's fine, that's subjective to players, which is why I am perfectly fine with comments saying "being able to spam is fun to me, don't nerf".

2 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

The comparison between overpowered frame commentary and underpowered frame commentary is entirely flawed in the above statement. The collection of threads asking for changes to be made to underpowered frames often do not call for changes due to personal reason, but belief that the subject in question does not have the capacity to reach viable levels as other frames, ie. they are underpowered and will see limited use compared to the rest.

I wouldn't speak for the entire community. However, doesn't this argument go the other way around too? By nerfing overpowered ones, the underpowered ones would see increased use compared to the rest. It only depends on whether you want to balance frames to the level where you can cheese everything (buff underpowered frames), or to the level where you can still have some challenge (nerf overpowered frames).

2 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Your play-style and your preference is no less or more important than anyone elses so when your proposed changes are purely to satisfy your personal play-style, it's not a very compelling piece of feedback.

I agree that my preferred playstyle does not take priority over the others, which is why I regard opinions of players who enjoy spamming these skills as equally valid. Feedback are all ultimately based on personal preference, they are supposed to only speak for oneself and voice one's personal preference. Show me a feedback that does not stem from a player's personal preference if you disagree. Whether a feedback is compelling of not is not judged by whether it is a popular opinion shared by the majority, but by whether there are compelling evidence to support a claim that can be objectively determined.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Checht

[(XBOX)RPColten]

Objective feedback.

Embers kit is based around being a light damage-caster frame. Due to endgame being level 100 and Grineer armour at that level becoming a significant obstacle for fire damage, of which Embers kit is based around, it stands to reason that her kit needs changes in order to be a viable option for a pure damage-caster at that level.

Edited April 24, 2018 by (XB1)RPColten
Edits cause misclicks

[Checht]

1 hour ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Objective feedback.

Embers kit is based around being a light damage-caster frame. Due to endgame being level 100 and Grineer armour at that level becoming a significant obstacle for fire damage, of which Embers kit is based around, it stands to reason that her kit needs changes in order to be a viable option for a pure damage-caster at that level.

This is as objective as

"Warframe is a fast-paced shooter based around being a space-ninja with high mobility. Due to invisible and mass CC abilities being available at all times, it replaces the need for high mobility and removes "fast-paced" and "shooter" from the equation. Thus, it stands to reason that these abilities need to be nerfed for fast-paced gameplay to return to Warframe again."

The feedback regarding Ember phrased this way is completely valid. The subjective part is to make Ember a light damage-caster frame. Once this has been set as the criterion, the objective part is to judge how much damage she can do to endgame enemies.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Checht

[Sean.bdfc]

Chect, it's clear that you and all of the replies here love this game in different ways. One thing I'm not seeing much of is finding a middle ground in enemy behavior and enemy types to preserve the status quo and address your concerns with ability spamming.

For example, for frames that can go invisible, why not enhance the enemy AI to fire blindly in the direction of the player's last known position and weapons use? This could be flexed depending on whether the weapon used is loud or silent to determine their triangulation speed. Also, why not create a limited special unit with infrared vision to spot invisible warframes? These two ideas can add a layer of complexity and fun factor to using invisibility. 

For radial blind, enemy behavior could be changed from a stun to significant accuracy penalty and blind fire. Also certain enemy types like corpus robots could have reduced blind effectiveness.

As for chain CC's, all enemies can have a stacking resistance to repeated ability spams; let's say plus 25% less duration for each repeated victim. 

The perspective I'm adopting is to not dilute our powers, but rather giving the enemy a wider range of tools to adapt to players. I think this would help keep a lot of us happy with our powers and add additional enemy counters to keep us on our feet. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Sean.bdfc

[TKDancer]

3 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Healing Return  gives 11 health on max level not 0-1, I find that a chromatic build rocking healing return has considerably more sustain than a life strike build due to energy and the fact he benefits from CO.

i meant 0-1 ticks of it, u'd be getting 0-1 ticks cause u'd be killing most things with 1-2 hits, so u'd be healing for 11 hp 0-1 times per enemy killed, specially with CO, specially at mid levels, early 100s

[Checht]

1 hour ago, Sean.bdfc said:

Chect, it's clear that you and all of the replies here love this game in different ways. One thing I'm not seeing much of is finding a middle ground in enemy behavior and enemy types to preserve the status quo and address your concerns with ability spamming.

-snip-

The perspective I'm adopting is to not dilute our powers, but rather giving the enemy a wider range of tools to adapt to players. I think this would help keep a lot of us happy with our powers and add additional enemy counters to keep us on our feet. 

These changes are also effectively a nerf to the abilities, we are just tuning the parameters over at the other knob (the enemies). This is viable too, and I don't have a problem with this if DE can successfully remove spam to win "playstyles" by tuning spawn rates of these advanced enemies. I just think that DE can achieve better difficulty tuning by tuning the abilities than tuning the spawn rate of these enemies. If DE curb this problem effectively this way, I would be very happy too, of course.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Checht

[fluffysnowcap]

3 hours ago, Checht said:

Feedbacks are subjective. You are speaking for yourself when you are posting a feedback. Only those arrogant enough would claim to speak on behalf of the majority of the community.

For how it is a compelling feedback, I have set an objective measurement for my judgement, which is whether the optimal way to win is

Our feedback is subjective, your feedback is objective. I think you should Stop now, This has gone to the point where you are proselytising about how the weakest stealth frame is overpowered and needs a nerf, this is just silly.

[fluffysnowcap]

1 hour ago, TKDancer said:

i meant 0-1 ticks of it, u'd be getting 0-1 ticks cause u'd be killing most things with 1-2 hits, so u'd be healing for 11 hp 0-1 times per enemy killed, specially with CO, specially at mid levels, early 100s

This build has 100% status chance, It triggers on every hit.

5 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Healing Return  gives 11 health on max level not 0-1, I find that a chromatic build rocking healing return has considerably more sustain than a life strike build due to energy and the fact he benefits from CO.

 

[TKDancer]

20 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

This build has 100% status chance, It triggers on every hit.

 

u are not understading the issue... it only procs if the target already has a status on them, chromatic blade is going to kill most targets u come across in 1-2 hits, specially if u are running CO with 100% status chance

 

1-2 hits to kill = not a lot of chances to get a use out of healing return because enemies will die in very few hits

[fluffysnowcap]

8 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

u are not understading the issue... it only procs if the target already has a status on them, chromatic blade is going to kill most targets u come across in 1-2 hits, specially if u are running CO with 100% status chance

 

1-2 hits to kill = not a lot of chances to get a use out of healing return because enemies will die in very few hits

They can't shoot you if there dead.

[Haeen]

On 4/19/2018 at 8:41 AM, Checht said:

And the current state of Ash and Excalibur blocks me from enjoying playing them. It's fine to disagree. DE just needs to make a bold decision on which direction to take. If we want to please everyone, using the same logic, DE shouldn't have nerfed Naramon 1.0 permanent invisibility too. I am sure there were some players who enjoy being permanently invisible as shown in the dissent in the following thread

I am glad that DE took this direction.

The premise is different entirely.  Perma-invisibility nullified the usage of most frames and it was entirely effortless with very little interaction.  This is not nearly comparable to the propositions you offer which are not only entirely subjective in their basis, but also not at all trying to promote interaction.  your chief complaint is using abilities makes the game easy. That is their intent, and that is perfectly acceptable for that kind of behavior.
  Now you're trying to argue that there is reduced diversity and that is just hogwash at this point.

 

[TKDancer]

5 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

They can't shoot you if there dead.

they also cant shoot you if they are blinded, anyways, life strike is considerably more reliable for excal healing, i dont even know why this conversation is a thing, buh bye

[Checht]

1 hour ago, Aegni said:

The premise is different entirely.  Perma-invisibility nullified the usage of most frames and it was entirely effortless with very little interaction.  This is not nearly comparable to the propositions you offer which are not only entirely subjective in their basis, but also not at all trying to promote interaction.  your chief complaint is using abilities makes the game easy. That is their intent, and that is perfectly acceptable for that kind of behavior.
  Now you're trying to argue that there is reduced diversity and that is just hogwash at this point.

 

I don't see how different they are though, can you please elaborate? It is extremely similar in terms of Ash, or invisible frames in general. With Zenurik, you can pretty much stay permanently invisible, just like Naramon 1.0. This makes gameplay effortless and with very little interaction.

Mass CC-lock abilities are similar too. By being able to lock down whole room of enemies, you are removing enemy interaction too. These abilities make the game easy (or effortless) by removing enemy interaction, thus I see them being similar to Naramon 1.0. Can you please explain how they are not similar? Thanks.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Checht

[Tsukinoki]

On 4/21/2018 at 4:55 PM, Checht said:

So I think they will kinda balance out if Excal has a health buff for his Radial Blind nerf.

It would have to be a stupidly massive buff for the frames you want nerfed, as both his health and armor would need to be drastically increased to compensate for having absolutly no sustainability in his kit at all.  Same goes for Ash.
And further as to nerfing Ashs smokescreen what about its interaction with teleport and bladestorm?  Just through away a decent part of synergy for no real reason?

Pretty much you're looking at three caster frames that rely on their abilities to survive and say "Hey, I know they rely on their abilities to survive...but lets heavily nerf their survivability abilities to near non-existance and make them tanks like my two preferred frames!"

Why does every frame have to be a tank frame?
What is wrong about frames that rely on their abilities to survive?

Also I find it funny you keep going to Oberon as an examples of a frame that can't disable entire rooms when that is all his 4 does.
It: Causes a knockdown (hard CC), radiation proc on the survivors of this knockdown (soft CC) and blinds all enemies near the ones that you slammed down (hard CC).  And its non LoS meaning that you can do it through walls and everything else.
And this can be easily spammed to lock down entire rooms for very cheap with absolutely no downsides, and with decent range and duration to boot.  And it spawns health orbs that heal Oberon and helps him tank.
And the best part?  He has more energy than either Excal or Ash does!  So he can spam it even more than Excal or Ash!

You go on and on about how more frames should be like Oberon and Atlas and any ability that can lock down entire rooms needs to be nerfed...and yet you don't think at all about nerfing Oberons 4?

But please tell us: Why should every frame be made into a tank frame that doesn't rely on abilities?
What is wrong with mostly caster frames that use their abilities and rely on them to live?

[Haeen]

7 hours ago, Checht said:

I don't see how different they are though, can you please elaborate? It is extremely similar in terms of Ash, or invisible frames in general. With Zenurik, you can pretty much stay permanently invisible, just like Naramon 1.0. This makes gameplay effortless and with very little interaction.

Mass CC-lock abilities are similar too. By being able to lock down whole room of enemies, you are removing enemy interaction too. These abilities make the game easy (or effortless) by removing enemy interaction, thus I see them being similar to Naramon 1.0. Can you please explain how they are not similar? Thanks.

Sure, I don't mind gonig into detail on the matter.

There is a nice little theory about gamebalance by Sirlin who played fighting games competitively.  The argument is primarily that of overcentralization being associated with a lack of balance.  In essence, does this one tactic cause the entire game to rotate around it?

 

For example, perma-invisibility with Naramon meant there was little need to use any of the existing stealth frames and afforded verylittle interaction.  Warframes such asAsh, Loki, and Octavia essentially have perma-invisibility but you need to interact in some way either by manually activating the ability and refreshing it, or constantly having to renew it.  Naramon didn't meet any of these requirements, once it was on it remained on and you didn't have to do anything about it.  It meant you could succesfully afk a mission and remain invincible/invisible for the entirety.

 

On the other hand, utilizing Zenurik to replenish energy so your Ash/Loki/Octavia can repeatedly refresh their invisibility is resulting in a multitude of interactions occurring all at once.  This doesn't overcentralize towards any particular frame/focus/strategy and is more acceptable.

DE doesn't have issues with the player having a large amount of power as long as there is some effort involvedand interactivity.  If you're able to permanently CC an entire room but have to pay for it by neutering your power strength then they find it perfectly fine because you are interacting with the game in some way and specifically building for it.  None of these strategies can inhibit other players, or force players to a particular optimal playstyle.

 

It is also why people complaining about Soundquake are utterly ridiculous.

 

 

[Checht]

28 minutes ago, Aegni said:

Sure, I don't mind gonig into detail on the matter.

-snip-

It is also why people complaining about Soundquake are utterly ridiculous.

I see, but this isn't really enemy interaction though. It's just that you need to spam 1 button and occasionally cast Zenurik's bubble. The "interaction" doesn't really have to do with engaging with the enemy, but rather just requiring players to recast abilities once the timer runs out.

 

49 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

It would have to be a stupidly massive buff for the frames you want nerfed, as both his health and armor would need to be drastically increased to compensate for having absolutly no sustainability in his kit at all.

Don't think so, my Volt is doing fine without having to spam his CC (Discharge). Excalibur already has some way to tank with his Exalted Blade. Ash would still have an easy panic button with Smoke Screen for survival. Both Ash and Excal can open enemies up for finishers, pairs well with Lifesteal or Exodia Might for health regen.

49 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And further as to nerfing Ashs smokescreen what about its interaction with teleport and bladestorm?  Just through away a decent part of synergy for no real reason?

Did I say ban Smoke Screen? You still can cast Smoke Screen, you just have to be more conservative when using it, and not just spamming it.

49 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Pretty much you're looking at three caster frames that rely on their abilities to survive and say "Hey, I know they rely on their abilities to survive...but lets heavily nerf their survivability abilities to near non-existance and make them tanks like my two preferred frames!"

Why does every frame have to be a tank frame?
What is wrong about frames that rely on their abilities to survive?

Volt without the ability to spam Discharge doesn't make it a tank. Atlas and Oberon are just soft tanks anyway. If you want a non-tank example to set the standard, I give you Harrow then.

When spamming 1 ability is your best way to survive, and it can scale up indefinitely, it is a problem.

49 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Also I find it funny you keep going to Oberon as an examples of a frame that can't disable entire rooms when that is all his 4 does.
It: Causes a knockdown (hard CC), radiation proc on the survivors of this knockdown (soft CC) and blinds all enemies near the ones that you slammed down (hard CC).  And its non LoS meaning that you can do it through walls and everything else.
And this can be easily spammed to lock down entire rooms for very cheap with absolutely no downsides, and with decent range and duration to boot.  And it spawns health orbs that heal Oberon and helps him tank.
And the best part?  He has more energy than either Excal or Ash does!  So he can spam it even more than Excal or Ash!

You go on and on about how more frames should be like Oberon and Atlas and any ability that can lock down entire rooms needs to be nerfed...and yet you don't think at all about nerfing Oberons 4?

1. Reckoning's AoE is only 36% the AoE of Radial Blind.

2. How long does it take for a knock-downed enemy to stand back up? A couple of seconds? 3? Knockdown time cannot be extended with duration mods too. Compare it with Radial Blind's 15 second stun at base.

3. Blinds enemy that were not affected by initial cast (not knock-downed). How long does it blind for? 4 seconds.

4. Costs 100 Energy. If you want to maintain Renewal while you're playing Oberon, you have to be a little conservative when using Reckoning.

5. Spawns health orbs for enemies killed by Reckoning, which is pretty much never at high levels. Reckoning functions mostly for soft CC and armor stripping at high levels, not killing, thus not giving you much health orbs.

6. Energy economy depends mostly on energy regen, not max energy capacity. If you want to keep Renewal on as Oberon, you don't have passive energy regen at all. You have to rely on Rage/Hunter Adrenaline or syndicate weapon proc for energy.

 

49 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

But please tell us: Why should every frame be made into a tank frame that doesn't rely on abilities?
What is wrong with mostly caster frames that use their abilities and rely on them to live?

I didn't say every frame should be made into tank. Volt that cannot spam Discharge isn't a tank. Caster frames shouldn't rely on 1 ability to the extent where spamming it is the optimal way to survive.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Checht

[Haeen]

10 minutes ago, Checht said:

I see, but this isn't really enemy interaction though. It's just that you need to spam 1 button and occasionally cast Zenurik's bubble. The "interaction" doesn't really have to do with engaging with the enemy, but rather just requiring players to recast abilities once the timer runs out.

That is interaction in itself. You should not be attempting to redefine the idea of interaction to suit your purposes. If you are willfully taking an action and strategy to make it easier for you to defeat an enemy, that is interaction.  Attempting to redefine interaction based on a different genre of gaming (Destiny or any other FPS), isn't accurate. You need to work within the contextof the game being played.  IN this case, warframe.

 

 

[Checht]

57 minutes ago, Aegni said:

That is interaction in itself. You should not be attempting to redefine the idea of interaction to suit your purposes. If you are willfully taking an action and strategy to make it easier for you to defeat an enemy, that is interaction.  Attempting to redefine interaction based on a different genre of gaming (Destiny or any other FPS), isn't accurate. You need to work within the contextof the game being played.  IN this case, warframe.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/interact

Definition of interact

intransitive verb

: to act upon one another

 

To act upon one another. What are you interacting with when you are just refreshing a timer? What is acting back upon you? Enemy cannot act on you, only you are acting on them. So you are not acting upon one another, i.e. not interacting.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Checht