Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[NoRainNoRainbow]

Please, tell me again how Ash, Excal and Volt are overpowered.

[Checht]

28 minutes ago, NoRainNoRainbow said:

Please, tell me again how Ash, Excal and Volt are overpowered.

Yup, Octavia is convincingly more overpowered. Doesn't change the fact that you can be perma-invis as Ash and perma mass stun-lock as Excal though. Volt you need to more purposefully build for it, but it can still be a mass CC-spammer.

I didn't post nerf suggestions for Octavia because I have no experience with her. The original purpose of this thread is for you guys to post nerf suggestions if you feel that there are others which also need nerfing. From my limited gameplay experience (male frames only), I posted suggestions for the 3 that I have played enough.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 3/21/2018 at 9:13 PM, Checht said:

I had a fruitful discussion on my thread regarding the lack of endgame difficulty recently.

One of the ideas is to introduce level 80-100 missions outside of Sortie 3. The general consensus in the thread regarding introducing such levels or hiking up the endgame difficulty is that players would deviate towards frames with overpowered abilities that can still cheese through such content, reducing frame diversity. This is a sign that some frame rebalancing (nerfing) needs to be done as a good game design should have well-balanced playable characters.

While I think that the priority for DE is to first introduce the level 80-100 endgame missions in order to collect warframe usage statistics and metrics to have objective evidence to buff/nerf frames, it could be an interesting topic to discuss first-hand in this thread. Listed below are some warframes and abilities that I think should be nerfed. Keep in mind that the frames included are frames that I have used enough to discuss with confidence. Those that are not included does not imply that they should not be nerfed. Without further ado, let me start with

 

Ash

Ash was my main frame when I first started playing as he looks like a badass ninja with sick abs. However, once I got used to using him, I realised how mindless it can be to play as Ash due to his abilities. This is one of the frames where I stopped playing as due to him being overpowered.

Smoke Screen

Problem: This is obvious and probably discussed many times before. Currently, there is no enemy that I am aware of that can effectively damage you once you go invisible. Enemies just attack in the general direction where they last heard your sound, and you are likely already out of the way. With Zenurik’s Energizing Dash, this is a low-cost ability and you can turn practically permanently invisible with repeated casting. This makes Ash an immortal frame with no challenge.

Nerf Suggestion: Reduce invisibility duration to slightly less than the time to revive a teammate and introduce a cooldown timer for this skill (much like abilities in MOBAs). In my opinion, 30 seconds would be an appropriate cooldown time for Ash. This would restrict this skill to mostly function as a means to get out of a sticky situation or staying undetected before launching an ambush on enemies up close. I believe this is what DE originally intended Smoke Screen to function, rather than being a permanently invisible frame that casually picks off enemies one-by-one.

Edit: Due to the unpopular response to cooldown, it seems that increasing energy consumption would be a better way to go. I'd still reduce the invis duration, and energy consumption can be tuned up to 100 energy.

(Fatal) Teleport + Covert Lethality

Problem: Makes Ash able to kill any enemy regardless of level. Paired with Smoke Screen and Fatal Teleport augment, you can get by most missions with just pressing 2 buttons – Smoke Screen -> Fatal Teleport.

Nerf Suggestion: Have Covert Lethality only work for Stealth Finishers.

Video evidence here

 

Volt

Volt is my favourite frame due to the versatility of his skillset. His ability to go melee reliably with Shocking Speed, function as a sniper with (Static) Electric Shield, go run and gun with (Current) Electric Shield, and some CC abilities with Shock and Discharge makes Volt an interesting frame to play for me. However, I find that this particular skill too easy to abuse to survive endgame content

Discharge

Problem: Discharge is a large AoE, long-duration stun. In addition, with the Capacitance augment mod, it regenerates your shield and provides overshield. Thus, you are basically free from threats for some time (easily ~8 seconds with a duration mod) after casting this skill. With maxed Energizing Dash, it grants you 150 energy in 30 seconds. With Streamline equipped, you can cast 2 Discharges within the period of 30 seconds and still have surplus energy, and that is assuming you do not get energy orbs from dead enemies. This makes it easy to survive endgame content just by spamming Discharge, and overshadows interesting playstyles that the other 3 skills provide.

Nerf Suggestion: Introduce a cooldown time for Discharge of 30 seconds. It fits with this skill anyway, as you are supposed to need some time to restore your charge after “discharging”. This would require players to use Discharge smartly, to judge when to use it for maximum advantage, rather than just spamming it. If DE wants to be fancy they can introduce a “Discharged” debuff of 30 seconds after casting Discharge, which would only function to lock the Discharge skill (much like Phoenix Renewal).

Edit: Due to the unpopular opinion on cooldown (again), it seems that the better way is to increase energy consumption. However, this ability already consumes 100 energy, which is the base energy cap of some frames. A way to do it might be to cost 100 energy on initial cast, then drain maybe 50 energy for X amount of seconds after cast. This way, you still can cast with 100 energy left. You will only be affected when you have energy surplus.

Gameplay video here

 

Excalibur

I might be stepping over my boundary here as Excalibur is my least used frame out of the 3 presented here. However, I still find this skill to be obviously overpowered and can be spammed to easily get through endgame content

Radial Blind

Problem: From the description, Radial Blind is supposed to “blind all enemies in a small radius” and “for several seconds”. However, by “small radius” it is a range of 25 m, longer than most AoE skills, and by “several seconds” it is 15 seconds, which is even longer than Volt’s Discharge. With Energizing Dash, it is again a low-cost ability that can be spammed to immobilize enemies indefinitely.

 Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

Edit: Many responses are that the AoE will be too small. However, many do not realize that compared to Petrify (which is also an AoE stun which requires line of sight), the AoE of Radial Blind is 19 times the AoE of Petrify (or Petrify's AoE is only 5.23% the AoE of Radial Blind). Petrify costs more too, at 75 energy compared to Radial Blind's 50. The only thing Petrify is better at is the extra 5 seconds stun, which is irrelevant since enemies would likely have died within the 15 second duration of Radial Blind anyway.

Plus, after nerf, the AoE of nerfed Radial Blind is still about twice the AoE of Petrify. See the figure below. In addition, the smaller AoE Radial Blind would synergize well with Slash Dash. To confront a group of enemies, Excalibur can utilize the invincibility of Slash Dash to close in on the group. Once he is in the cluster, it is the optimum time to cast the nerfed Radial Blind. The effectiveness in terms of AoE wouldn't be lesser than Petrify. The current state of Radial Blind overshadows Slash Dash entirely, which many has regarded it as only a mobility skill and not much help in terms of combat. Why Slash Dash when you can already mass stun from far away?

Video evidence here

 

This concludes that list of frames and abilities that I feel qualified enough to comment on in this thread. For you to understand my perspective, I think Oberon is the perfectly balanced frame at the moment. He is level-80-100-viable, great abilities that synergizes well with team, and no spam-able skills that totally remove threats. I hope DE will balance frames with Oberon set as the standard.

You might also realize that most skills presented above are spammable due to the current energy economy provided by Energizing Dash. One might argue that nerfing energy regen will mitigate this problem. However, I foresee the outcome upon nerfing energy regen to be undesirable. Players will just save up energy for the OP skills, and the non-OP skills (e.g. Volt’s first 3 skills) will just be overshadowed again. Thus, let’s keep the discussion in this thread in terms of nerfing the skills. I think adding cooldown timer to be a good way to prevent spamming of OP skills.

Again, the list is not complete, as I feel that I am unqualified to comment on frames that may be OP but did not use extensively (I usually stop using such frames once I realize their abilities can be abused e.g. Wukong, Loki). Thus, I welcome everyone to contribute to the thread and update on the list. The context is that if endgame content with sufficient difficulty is introduced (e.g. level 80-100 missions other than Sortie 3), what frames will be over-represented, what abilities will be spammed for easy survivability? Give your reasons and nerf suggestions. Fire away!

 

Edit:

1. Posted gameplay videos to better illustrate my points.

2. Highlighted important statements for lazy readers.

 

Edit 2:

From the discussions in this thread so far, it seems that I need to do better to get my point across before being bogged down by red herrings. So, please read these guiding questions before posting.

1. Do you have any abilities that you can spam to survive level 150+ or 200+ content?

If yes, go on to the next question. If not, good for you, you must be very skilled to be able to survive at such content without resorting to spamming those skills, and I can't prove otherwise. There's no need to go on.

2. Do you think those abilities should be nerfed, so that level 80-100 is the appropriate endgame challenge?

If yes, post your nerf suggetions. If no, we just fundamentally disagree, we can start another thread in the "General" section to discuss this. But first, let me just give a few reasons why I think they should be nerfed.

i) If spamming those skills is the optimal "strategy" to survive level 150+, it is the optimal "strategy" to survive low level too to begin with. You just do not do so before you reach level 150+ because it is not fun. I want the optimal strategy and tactics in Warframe to be fun and engaging.

ii) Difficulty at level 150+ comes purely from enemies being able to oneshot you with any stray bullets, which many players complain about. Enemy damage is required to scale up to this extent for any challenge precisely due to spammable hard CC/invisibility/invincibility skills. Imagine any PVE horde action games (Left 4 Dead, Borderlands, or even Dynasty Warriors) and give your character permanent invisibility or the ability to cast radial blind (or any hard CC in general) every 5 seconds. Where would difficulty come from in this case?

iii) Balance between frames and abilities. If we were to buff other frames and abilities instead, see issues i) and ii).

Extra question: Can you read enlarged, bolded texts?

If yes, please read the enlarged, bolded texts in the original post. If not, please see an optometrist.

Amazing, every single of of these ideas are horrible and only stand to make the frames worse.

[NoRainNoRainbow]

All frames with invisibility can stay in it permanently if they have energy, that's just how abilities work. And perma stun lock on Excal? xD You should see an actual CC frame, like Rhino or Vauban, they would straight up laugh at excals "stunlock". You know my opinion on this, I've posted here a few times, you can't have fun if you're not trying to have fun. If you don't like a feature of the game then don't play around it. If you don't like the way a frame works - don't play them. Find what you enjoy and make it work for you, as not every frame in the game is supposed to cater to just what you want - different kinds of frames for different kinds of players. 

[TheMightyBaloon]

It is clear that you have almost no experience with higher tier mobs that scale up to 200 or 300. To the most of us that tend to play "end game" lvl 40 or 50 or even lvl 60s are fodder mobs. And given end game currently still does not exist, even with Elite Sanctuary Onslaught being a thing. It seems like you speak from lack of experience with basically the game. Lvl 100 toxic ancients can 1 shot you regardless of frame, mb two shot you if you are inaros , but scaling upwards to 200 or 300 you just die in one hit if they hook you. Higher lvl nullifiers do the same, same with techs and bombards or napalms. As to your suggestions, aside from volt ash and excal barely see play, mostly because if you want an invisible frame, you run loki,ivara or octavia, so you ash's only use is for his 4th which even after the re-rework is still bad due to it's targeting making it impossible to mark 30 to 50 enemies that the game tends to throw at you. Excal is mostly a new player frame these days and hasn't seen much end game usage in a long time. The blind is okay but it is LOS which makes it one of the least desired forms of CC. Volt used to be only your speed boi, his ult does more damage after the uncap but it is still mostly trash mob killer and it does jack against armor. Most volts use speed unless you are in a group that runs an ev and 4 cp and mb a buffer so your 4 can do significantly more dmg, which is still avoided in defense missions that go past wave 40 or survivals that go to 1h+. The skill falls off really really fast in regular play, the only reason volt is seeing popularity atm is because of Sanctuary Onslaught and in a sense a replacement for ember for those exterm alets. Aside from that you'd mostly see speed volts

 

So run some defense missions with your buddies to go past wave 60 or do 2h survivals with those frames and those abilities. Then come back and post about nerfs. It is clear this comes from a fairly new player. You'd probably think that simulor mirage is broken too even though it has been nerfed to the ground. The end game we want is to hit lvl 150 to 200 or 300 that engages you in a meaningful way unlike Sanctuary Onslaught which at this point becomes a farming spot for radded relics. 

 

I've said it many a times it is not the frames that is the issue but the game modes themselves + the enemy scaling. Which at this point is a huge overhaul DE either doesn't wanna touch or is too busy trying to figure out the next 3 open worlds to come. 20min in mot might be something a new player might find hard but that is not something a veteran would stress about. And trust me , having a bombard hidden in a nullifier bubble quickly makes that volt or excal or ash rather useless.

[Checht]

37 minutes ago, NoRainNoRainbow said:

All frames with invisibility can stay in it permanently if they have energy, that's just how abilities work. And perma stun lock on Excal? xD You should see an actual CC frame, like Rhino or Vauban, they would straight up laugh at excals "stunlock". You know my opinion on this, I've posted here a few times, you can't have fun if you're not trying to have fun. If you don't like a feature of the game then don't play around it. If you don't like the way a frame works - don't play them. Find what you enjoy and make it work for you, as not every frame in the game is supposed to cater to just what you want - different kinds of frames for different kinds of players. 

Well, I did not claim that Excalibur is the only one that can mass hard CC-lock. Used Rhino and Vauban briefly, found their kit to be too easy to exploit, and stopped using them early on. This is why I don't feel qualified enough to comment on nerf suggestions for them.

I have stated my stance on self-fabricated challenges pretty often too. This is just where we fundamentally disagree in terms of opinions. If you think it is okay to leave it as it is, all the best to you, I have no problem with that. I just think endgame challenge would never come if we preserve the status quo, and I wish that would change.

10 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said:

It is clear that you have almost no experience with higher tier mobs that scale up to 200 or 300. To the most of us that tend to play "end game" lvl 40 or 50 or even lvl 60s are fodder mobs. And given end game currently still does not exist, even with Elite Sanctuary Onslaught being a thing.

-snip-

I've said it many a times it is not the frames that is the issue but the game modes themselves + the enemy scaling. Which at this point is a huge overhaul DE either doesn't wanna touch or is too busy trying to figure out the next 3 open worlds to come. 20min in mot might be something a new player might find hard but that is not something a veteran would stress about. And trust me , having a bombard hidden in a nullifier bubble quickly makes that volt or excal or ash rather useless.

I've reached level 300 on Mot with non-pure-Discharge Volt build before. I'm speaking from this point of view.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Checht

[TheMightyBaloon]

12 minutes ago, Checht said:

I've reached level 300 on Mot with non-pure-Discharge Volt build before. I'm speaking from this point of view.

 

And you'd wipe the whole room with a single discharge? Which I am highly doubting, especially with armor up. OR are you worried about the poor CC volt provides? In which case you are better off running frames like rhino. In which case it boils down to not the frame but the game modes themselves. 

[Checht]

31 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said:

And you'd wipe the whole room with a single discharge? Which I am highly doubting, especially with armor up. OR are you worried about the poor CC volt provides? In which case you are better off running frames like rhino. In which case it boils down to not the frame but the game modes themselves. 

The point is I'm not speaking from a lack of experience in scaling up to high levels. Those abilities that I've listed are still easy to spam to win even at high levels, especially for Ash.

Spoiler

 

 

[TheMightyBaloon]

37 minutes ago, Checht said:

The point is I'm not speaking from a lack of experience in scaling up to high levels. Those abilities that I've listed are still easy to spam to win even at high levels, especially for Ash

Aside from rio, who has been doing survivals religiously, been following the dude since he only had 10 viewers. Most players will fail at the execution he is at. The execution while fairly simple isn't that easy to pull off unless you put some practice into it. You can even argue that frost is OP if you give it to rio to break him down and min/max his build for late game( and there are least 3 of them that I am familiar with). When it comes to organized groups ash is no where near the top end to be picked. Since he does require the whole group to move with him to centralize spawns. There was a video floating around of an ivara hitting 7000 lvl mobs on like 8h or something where the game timer just bricks and enemies just don't scale anymore. We can even argue a sleep-quinox with trickery and a covert lethality dagger is also broken at end game, but that is not the frame, but abusing covert lethality and trickery.

Which is the case of ash's kit, just abuse covert lethality and trickery to be perma invis with a fast attack speed dagger. He is by far one of the least picked frames mostly because he doesn't bring much to the table in group play. All rio is doing is exploiting trickery to indefinitely prolong invisibility, kinda how nekros was so good with old naramon and atterax or scoliac. 

As I mentioned, there needs to be a game mode that starts at 150+ that engages the player, Sanctuary Onslaught is kinda like that but that is more a race to kill as fast as possible, in which ash just doesn't find a place. In exterminates on the starchart and even sorties, you are still better off running a maiming strike weapon because it is strictly better and sure you can use ash to go invis but just take loki who doubles his invis. 

What is next? Complaining how octavia scales indefinitely with higher lvls and you can ignore all dmg by being invisible? Or how zenistar can be overpowered in a group that runs 4 cp and a banshee. Or how pox mirage or even torrid mirage with hall of mirrors is too broken since it stacks status procs too fast?

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

11 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said:

Aside from rio, who has been doing survivals religiously, been following the dude since he only had 10 viewers. Most players will fail at the execution he is at. The execution while fairly simple isn't that easy to pull off unless you put some practice into it. You can even argue that frost is OP if you give it to rio to break him down and min/max his build for late game( and there are least 3 of them that I am familiar with). When it comes to organized groups ash is no where near the top end to be picked. Since he does require the whole group to move with him to centralize spawns. There was a video floating around of an ivara hitting 7000 lvl mobs on like 8h or something where the game timer just bricks and enemies just don't scale anymore. We can even argue a sleep-quinox with trickery and a covert lethality dagger is also broken at end game, but that is not the frame, but abusing covert lethality and trickery.

Which is the case of ash's kit, just abuse covert lethality and trickery to be perma invis with a fast attack speed dagger. He is by far one of the least picked frames mostly because he doesn't bring much to the table in group play. All rio is doing is exploiting trickery to indefinitely prolong invisibility, kinda how nekros was so good with old naramon and atterax or scoliac. 

As I mentioned, there needs to be a game mode that starts at 150+ that engages the player, Sanctuary Onslaught is kinda like that but that is more a race to kill as fast as possible, in which ash just doesn't find a place. In exterminates on the starchart and even sorties, you are still better off running a maiming strike weapon because it is strictly better and sure you can use ash to go invis but just take loki who doubles his invis. 

What is next? Complaining how octavia scales indefinitely with higher lvls and you can ignore all dmg by being invisible? Or how zenistar can be overpowered in a group that runs 4 cp and a banshee. Or how pox mirage or even torrid mirage with hall of mirrors is too broken since it stacks status procs too fast?

I find it fascinating and somewhat entertaining how much you take OP seriously.( And how serious you are towards the non-existent endgame Warframe will never have.)

This entire thread is just a joke, I mean c'mon if the 30+ people in this thread can't change OP's ridiculous opinion, what hope do you have.

Best you can do is be the big man and just accept OP's questionable opinion and walk away like everyone else....

 

[TheMightyBaloon]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

I find it fascinating and somewhat entertaining how much you take OP seriously.( And how serious you are towards the non-existent endgame Warframe will never have.)

This entire thread is just a joke, I mean c'mon if the 30+ people in this thread can't change OP's ridiculous opinion, what hope do you have.

Best you can do is be the big man and just accept OP's questionable opinion and walk away like everyone else....

I'd like him to see what I see, both of our opinions can be valuable. I've theory crafted plenty end game set ups and successfully executed most of them, but it all boils down to what do you consider end game, are you fully stripping armor and what not. Which at the end of the day ends up being not how to fix frames (reworks are fine since they bring new life to frames), but how to make missions in which said frames can be good. 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

37 minutes ago, TheMightyBaloon said:

I'd like him to see what I see, both of our opinions can be valuable. I've theory crafted plenty end game set ups and successfully executed most of them, but it all boils down to what do you consider end game, are you fully stripping armor and what not. Which at the end of the day ends up being not how to fix frames (reworks are fine since they bring new life to frames), but how to make missions in which said frames can be good. 

For me, endgame isn't just fighting "challenging" enemies, it's mostly the rewards you get. 

Why would you ever bother fighting lvl 150+ enemies in a survival or defense if the rewards are things you can get from just extracting and repeating the mission?

Ash/ivara(or any frame in general)being able to cheese lvl 1000+ enemies is cool but very pointless since DE refuses to make reward scaling a thing which is why some players don't care about doing a mission longer than they have too.

The closet thing to "endgame" for the average player would probably be sorties, but even that is easy.

Don't get me wrong tho, as someone who likes to play Ash and solo, I would love some actual endgame content, but I'm not going to waste my time doing something that doesn't provide any real benefit to me other than "bragging rights" to my friends.

[GPrime96]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

For me, endgame isn't just fighting "challenging" enemies, it's mostly the rewards you get. 

Why would you ever bother fighting lvl 150+ enemies in a survival or defense if the rewards are things you can get from just extracting and repeating the mission?

Ash/ivara(or any frame in general)being able to cheese lvl 1000+ enemies is cool but very pointless since DE refuses to make reward scaling a thing which is why some players don't care about doing a mission longer than they have too.

The closet thing to "endgame" for the average player would probably be sorties, but even that is easy.

Don't get me wrong tho, as someone who likes to play Ash and solo, I would love some actual endgame content, but I'm not going to waste my time doing something that doesn't provide any real benefit to me other than "bragging rights" to my friends.

I hope DE add Scaling Kuva in Kuva Survival. I think that change would make Kuva Survival a good place to fight high level enemies.

[Checht]

1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said:

Aside from rio, who has been doing survivals religiously, been following the dude since he only had 10 viewers. Most players will fail at the execution he is at. The execution while fairly simple isn't that easy to pull off unless you put some practice into it.

-snip-

What is next? Complaining how octavia scales indefinitely with higher lvls and you can ignore all dmg by being invisible? Or how zenistar can be overpowered in a group that runs 4 cp and a banshee. Or how pox mirage or even torrid mirage with hall of mirrors is too broken since it stacks status procs too fast?

All these views are valid provided that you view "endgame" as how to build your frames such that enemies can't even get a shot on you. All these builds boil down to mass hard CC-lock or perma-invis, which I find to just be very unengaging to play. I don't think it is difficult to execute them either. Using Ash's example, all you need is renew your invisibility every time it runs out, occasionally pop Zenurik, press 3 when you see an enemy. The only time when you have to do any different is just when there's a nullifier, in which case you just pop the bubble with a fire rate weapon, then press 3.

For all the other examples that you gave, such as Ivara, Equinox and Ocatavia, I've never said they're not overpowered, I'm just unqualified to post nerf suggestions for them cause I've only used male frames. Other frames being arguably more overpowered doesn't mean my proposed 3 frames are not able to spam 1 skill to win. For Banshee and Mirage, I don't have much of a problem, as I regard survivability as the main yardstick for overpowered-ness, not how fast a frame can kill. When a frame can survive and scale indefinitely by just spamming 1 skill, I regard that as overpowered.

1 hour ago, TheMightyBaloon said:

I'd like him to see what I see, both of our opinions can be valuable. I've theory crafted plenty end game set ups and successfully executed most of them, but it all boils down to what do you consider end game, are you fully stripping armor and what not. Which at the end of the day ends up being not how to fix frames (reworks are fine since they bring new life to frames), but how to make missions in which said frames can be good. 

I agree again, if you regard endgame as crafting builds that don't even allow enemies to react to you, and that you don't mind waiting for hours for enemies to scale up, the status quo is perfect for you. I just find the the playstyles for these builds to be too bland, and I'd rather let the endgame be at a finite level, where players are still able to react to enemy damage and don't have to resort to perma-invis or perma CC-lock.

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

I find it fascinating and somewhat entertaining how much you take OP seriously.( And how serious you are towards the non-existent endgame Warframe will never have.)

This is a fascinating viewpoint. Are you saying that it's fine for Warframe to not have an endgame, or have you given up on DE in implementing any sort of endgame?

Edit: Just saw your later post

18 minutes ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

Don't get me wrong tho, as someone who likes to play Ash and solo, I would love some actual endgame content, but I'm not going to waste my time doing something that doesn't provide any real benefit to me other than "bragging rights" to my friends.

Now I'm curious. How would you define endgame? If Ash can already scale up to whatever level you like, what would the endgame look like?

Edited April 26, 2018 by Checht

[-_Highlander_-]

 pls let Equinox be the next one on the list 

as it is played by low mr and they complaining about others beeing to much OP

While they dont give you the chance to kill

 

Just as you community said Saryn Prime is rekking the whole map instant 

well this counts the same towards equinox spam poo

seeing only equinox for and after .. 

EoS for example how easy it is for Equinox to rek an whole map 

Never ask for nerfs got only nerfs .. and now iam gonna ask one for it 

Dont come up with this public stuff .. as it is already know that public are mented for everyone 

whats the fun of it 

[fr4gb4ll]

that's... not realistic... why? because i mainly "cheese" those high-level enemies with my weapons and not my abilities - so would you suggest them to be "weakend" too (and for f-sake, don't use this bloody word "nerf" in your post - especially in the title, or else do you like getting hate-posts?).

as for a general idea to make "end-game" more demanding, DE should first get to "fix" this nonesensical scaling of the enemies and in turn the scaling of the frames and weapons, so that some combination of frames and/or weapons are not totally useless anymore while others are still OP - they should only varying in the used playstyle and modding and not so much in total power already present in the base-stats. after that, DE should think of better reward to make player do those more tedious mission (onslaught elite, though buggy as hell, is a good move in that direction). and they also should put a hard-limit to the MR-level - make it stages for different ranks, but please prevent any low and even mid-ranks into the really hard contend (no matter IF they COULD do it - they just have to get through the ranks as evey other veteran too to gain the privilege to do such missions).

[Checht]

16 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

that's... not realistic... why? because i mainly "cheese" those high-level enemies with my weapons and not my abilities - so would you suggest them to be "weakend" too

That would depend on how you see something as "cheesing". I wouldn't consider having a relatively easy game due to high stat weapons to be cheesing, as most weapons still at least require some level of good aim, and enemies would still shoot back at you. These abilities allow you to turn off enemy interaction practically permanently. You just need 1 button to disable all threats. I don't see high damage weapons/abilities to be much of a problem, as long as they still allow enemy interaction.

19 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

(and for f-sake, don't use this bloody word "nerf" in your post - especially in the title, or else do you like getting hate-posts?)

I'm not afraid to call them what they are. Those changes effectively reduce the potency of the abilities, which are nerfs. I have high tolerance for hate posts anyway, and sometimes there are still some discussion points worth going through amidst the hate posts.

21 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

as for a general idea to make "end-game" more demanding, DE should first get to "fix" this nonesensical scaling of the enemies and in turn the scaling of the frames and weapons, so that some combination of frames and/or weapons are not totally useless anymore while others are still OP - they should only varying in the used playstyle and modding and not so much in total power already present in the base-stats. after that, DE should think of better reward to make player do those more tedious mission (onslaught elite, though buggy as hell, is a good move in that direction). and they also should put a hard-limit to the MR-level - make it stages for different ranks, but please prevent any low and even mid-ranks into the really hard contend (no matter IF they COULD do it - they just have to get through the ranks as evey other veteran too to gain the privilege to do such missions).

Enemies do need some fixes. The one I see to be the priority is armor scaling, which reduces damage type diversity, but that is out of the scope of this thread. Hopefully DE is working on fixing enemy armor in Damage 3.0.

[MiMiren]

33 minutes ago, Checht said:

I'm not afraid to call them what they are. Those changes effectively reduce the potency of the abilities, which are nerfs. I have high tolerance for hate posts anyway, and sometimes there are still some discussion points worth going through amidst the hate posts.

No. The issue you are talking about isn't nerfing the frames. The problem is a lot deeper. It has to do with frames not being tanky enough, energy system being crap, and DE allowing a player to mod for range and duration. HOW MANY GAMES ALLOW A PLAYER TO ALTER RANGE OF A CC ABILITY??? It would seem like you didn't realize these things.

Personally I believe DE sees the bigger picture and some of the issues but doesn't have time/resources to afford such a big scale system rework. At the same time if DE does want to create more content to keep the player base invested then the rework kinda needs to happen.

Ain't nobody has time for endurance run and ain't nobody is gonna enjoy hiding in the corner for few hours stuck to a chair.

I'm not going to go into more detail. TL,DR I think DE is aware but is stuck on venus and sacrifice. Maybe there is something there to address the issue too. I'm gonna wait till sacrifice, see what happens. Maybe I'll make some suggestions depending on the next big update.

[fr4gb4ll]

34 minutes ago, Checht said:

That would depend on how you see something as "cheesing". I wouldn't consider having a relatively easy game due to high stat weapons to be cheesing, as most weapons still at least require some level of good aim, and enemies would still shoot back at you. These abilities allow you to turn off enemy interaction practically permanently. You just need 1 button to disable all threats. I don't see high damage weapons/abilities to be much of a problem, as long as they still allow enemy interaction.

that would be the "classical" long-range-melee weapon with maiming strike and friends ^^

as for the "push" button to win, most frames that have/had those are already "reworked" by the devs. i think in your example, you are likely to refer to lokis disarming, right? sure, such abilities can be a tide-turner at times, but then i rarely ever see those avilities used in really hight level fights. but, the example of onslaught elite with the "locking" effect might be a way to prevent such overuse of tide-turning abilities - it might even easier to put into place of other end-game runs (maybe except lore-wise) than making abilities weaker over time spend in an endless mission. ofc, they could also make specific enemies more resilient against those frame-skills... at least after a while - like they would getting used to them and can adapt to them in a stalker way - which would be a nice idea to a new sentinent faction (not only those few we have from tem atm). this would make a endgame more challenging even in perspective of op-weaponary.

46 minutes ago, Checht said:

I'm not afraid to call them what they are. Those changes effectively reduce the potency of the abilities, which are nerfs. I have high tolerance for hate posts anyway, and sometimes there are still some discussion points worth going through amidst the hate posts.

so you put the "nerf" in to get more controversial comments? well, i guess you got them, alright ^^  - still, it misleads some reader (me included, since i was expecting the "usual" nerf xyz, frame/weapon/mod thread).

[Checht]

3 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

so you put the "nerf" in to get more controversial comments? well, i guess you got them, alright ^^  - still, it misleads some reader (me included, since i was expecting the "usual" nerf xyz, frame/weapon/mod thread).

Not for controversial comments. I'm just being honest in calling them what they are. I was (naively) expecting players to post nerf suggestions for other frames/abilities that I'm not qualified to comment on when I first posted this topic, but I guess it just isn't how the forums work here.

[TKDancer]

almost like the majority of players here dont agree with u and therefore arent suggesting other frames that "need to be nerfed"

 

really makes ya think, dont it

[Sannidor]

OP is awful and his ideas are bad. 

Nerf Volt... of all frames... because he can CC... Nerf Ash and Excal when Mesa and Octavia exist?

Nerf ANY frame BEFORE and INSTEAD buffing enemies, making them smarter and more challenging to fight?

My head hurts.

[(XBOX)Rhythm Grey]

ash's smokescreen has the shortest duration out of all the invisibility powers, and you choose his as the one that needs a nerf?   also no, a 2 power doesnt need to have 100 energy consumption,  that would not make it anywhere near useful.    id suggest rethinking all of this and think mush less of the "Moba" mindset and think more of the style of game warframe is,  fast paced

[Checht]

8 hours ago, Sannidor said:

OP is awful and his ideas are bad. 

Nerf Volt... of all frames... because he can CC... Nerf Ash and Excal when Mesa and Octavia exist?

Nerf ANY frame BEFORE and INSTEAD buffing enemies, making them smarter and more challenging to fight?

My head hurts.

The question is, how? How would a smarter enemy AI help when you can just turn off enemy interaction practically permanently (either by stun-lock or invisibility)? Do you have any suggestions? 

6 hours ago, (XB1)Neon Lights9212 said:

ash's smokescreen has the shortest duration out of all the invisibility powers, and you choose his as the one that needs a nerf?   also no, a 2 power doesnt need to have 100 energy consumption,  that would not make it anywhere near useful.    id suggest rethinking all of this and think mush less of the "Moba" mindset and think more of the style of game warframe is,  fast paced

I didn't say other stealth frames don't need changes/nerfs. I only posted for Ash as I have played him enough to comment on him comfortably. Invisibility needs to be reworked in general. 100 energy at Base for invisibility would still be a very effective panic button. You just don't spam it to be permanently invisible now. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Checht

[Ventura_Highway]

2 hours ago, Checht said:

Invisibility needs to be reworked in general.

I would expand the scope and say enemy awareness in general needs adjustment. There's very little opportunities for mid-fight misdirection and enemies are either unaware you're breathing down their neck or they're totally aware of everything about your current position. Doesn't really let me get my ninja on.