Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[(XBOX)RPColten]

 

6 hours ago, Checht said:

I didn't say other stealth frames don't need changes/nerfs. I only posted for Ash as I have played him enough to comment on him comfortably. Invisibility needs to be reworked in general. 100 energy at Base for invisibility would still be a very effective panic button. You just don't spam it to be permanently invisible now. 

100 energy for a 'panic button' is reasonable, however Smokebomb is not a "panic button". It is a necessary function of his current kit. To change Smokebomb also requires a change to the rest of his kit as well. Bladestorm now needs to be much cheaper because the player will not be able to combine it with Smokescreen, and Teleport also will need a cost reduction. Not to mention that Ash himself would need a decent health/armour buff to make up for his loss in survivability tools. Maybe a passive that increases damage resistance even more during parkour movement, who knows. The point is 100 energy for an ability used not only to drop enemgy aggro (Necessary for a frame that lacks damage reduction or enemy stun.) but also to cheapen other abilities is not good balancing, not for Warframe.

[TKDancer]

2 hours ago, Checht said:

The question is, how? How would a smarter enemy AI help when you can just turn off enemy interaction practically permanently (either by stun-lock or invisibility)? Do you have any suggestions?

people, me included, have said multiple times that BEFORE we should nerf any frame DE needs to rework how enemies work and scale(health, armor, dmg and AI), then rework our damage output so we arent one-shotting everything and then start discussing how to rebalance frames

 

iirc u even said enemies dont need much tweaking which was just baffling to me

[TKDancer]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

100 energy for a 'panic button' is reasonable

no its not

[Checht]

18 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

people, me included, have said multiple times that BEFORE we should nerf any frame DE needs to rework how enemies work and scale(health, armor, dmg and AI), then rework our damage output so we arent one-shotting everything and then start discussing how to rebalance frames

My question is again, how? How would smarter AI help when we can just turn off their AI?

My whole premise about overpoweredness stems from ability mechanics, not player damage or enemy damage. So, I don't even know why you bring up stuff about damage and health.

[TKDancer]

7 minutes ago, Checht said:

My question is again, how? How would smarter AI help when we can just turn off their AI?

My whole premise about overpoweredness stems from ability mechanics, not player damage or enemy damage. So, I don't even know why you bring up stuff about damage and health.

because if we actually went through all the changes i described and THEN started nerfing hard CC, the ammount of time we'd be able to "shut down" the smarter AI for would be reduced

[Ceadeus]

How about rather than nerfing frames across the board because they're decent to try and get some faux sense of freedom when selecting Warframes, we actually just buff the ones that are underperforming to not suck at anything above base starchart content?

[Ceadeus]

How about rather than nerfing frames across the board because they're decent to try and get some faux sense of freedom when selecting Warframes, we actually just buff the ones that are underperforming to not suck at anything above base starchart content?

[Checht]

4 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

because if we actually went through all the changes i described and THEN started nerfing hard CC, the ammount of time we'd be able to "shut down" the smarter AI for would be reduced

I'm a little confused here. Are you in agreement that some nerfs need to happen to hard CC and invis, it's just that you prefer enemy stats or AI to be reworked first? I do agree that enemy armor needs to be reworked too, but I just regard these overpowered abilities to be more of a pressing issue.

5 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

How about rather than nerfing frames across the board because they're decent to try and get some faux sense of freedom when selecting Warframes, we actually just buff the ones that are underperforming to not suck at anything above base starchart content?

More power creep for Warframe? I don't think that's a good idea. I don't know any frame (male frames anyway) that is only good for starchart content. Even Atlas (which is often regarded as the "weakest") can do anything the current "endgame" has to offer.

[TKDancer]

2 minutes ago, Checht said:

I'm a little confused here. Are you in agreement that some nerfs need to happen to hard CC and invis, it's just that you prefer enemy stats or AI to be reworked first?

less than prefer and more that i think nerfs should NOT happen until enemies and scaling in general gets properly addressed

[(XBOX)Rhythm Grey]

6 hours ago, Checht said:

The question is, how? How would a smarter enemy AI help when you can just turn off enemy interaction practically permanently (either by stun-lock or invisibility)? Do you have any suggestions? 

I didn't say other stealth frames don't need changes/nerfs. I only posted for Ash as I have played him enough to comment on him comfortably. Invisibility needs to be reworked in general. 100 energy at Base for invisibility would still be a very effective panic button. You just don't spam it to be permanently invisible now. 

why would you need to spam it?  i have no need for my invisibility power, not even with my fatel teleport build.  my first frame was ash, my first prime was ash prime. he is honestly fine where he is.

 

this is a PvE game, not a pvp game, if this were a pvp game, than maybe your suggestions would make more sense to allow balancing,  but since we fight against AI and nobody plays conclave,  nothing about those 3 frames needs to be changed

[Checht]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Neon Lights9212 said:

why would you need to spam it?  i have no need for my invisibility power, not even with my fatel teleport build.  my first frame was ash, my first prime was ash prime. he is honestly fine where he is.

 

this is a PvE game, not a pvp game, if this were a pvp game, than maybe your suggestions would make more sense to allow balancing,  but since we fight against AI and nobody plays conclave,  nothing about those 3 frames needs to be changed

I agree, you don't really need to spam it for the "endgame" that Warframe currently has to offer, which is why giving it a cooldown or increasing energy cost wouldn't hurt much at all. My first prime was Ash Prime too, but I quit playing him cause it isn't fun when you know you can always just press 2 to "get out of jail free" anytime you want. This destroys any sense of urgency or challenge in a game.

Regarding the question on whether nerfs are needed in PVE games, it depends on how you view it. If you are fine with self-fabricated challenge, such as nerfing yourself by not optimizing your build in order to have challenging fun, nerfs are not needed. I am arguing from the point that a game requiring players to self-fabricate their own challenge is bad. It's similar to the case of Naramon 1.0's permanent invisibility. By the same argument that PVE games don't need power balance, Naramon 1.0's perma-invis shouldn't have been removed.

[AnimatedJester]

Interesting opinions and proposals but may I ask you something. You talk about end game content deviating towards frames that can cheese better.... that, in your eyes, need nerfing. But why do they have to be nerfed? why can't we use this as an opportunity to voice to DE that instead of taking the fun out of every frame they deem "too good" they instead enhance the frames that seem lackluster to make them more palatable and more viable. A rework is one thing if ablilities seem mediocre (Limbo having 3 abilities that did the same thing before he got a rework pass)but nerfing something is taking someone else's fun away because your fun isn't as fun as theirs is. Essentially everyone calling for nerfs to me seems to have the mindset of, if I cant have fun with my favorite frames I am takign everyone else down with me.

Think about it for a moment. I will also take this opportunity to say, "DE, this game has been around for 5 years now. Stop taking the fun out of it with nerf after nerf because it is essentially the easy way out and maybe instead of trying to take everything down a notch, bring everything up to it's level and work on enhancing the content you already have."

Edit: My point is Even if something like power creep set in and enemies needed re-balancing (which honestly they need anyway) at least the frames would be more fun and not just shadows of what they used to be.

Edited May 1, 2018 by TheAnimatedJester

[Checht]

2 hours ago, TheAnimatedJester said:

Interesting opinions and proposals but may I ask you something. You talk about end game content deviating towards frames that can cheese better.... that, in your eyes, need nerfing. But why do they have to be nerfed? why can't we use this as an opportunity to voice to DE that instead of taking the fun out of every frame they deem "too good" they instead enhance the frames that seem lackluster to make them more palatable and more viable. A rework is one thing if ablilities seem mediocre (Limbo having 3 abilities that did the same thing before he got a rework pass)but nerfing something is taking someone else's fun away because your fun isn't as fun as theirs is. Essentially everyone calling for nerfs to me seems to have the mindset of, if I cant have fun with my favorite frames I am takign everyone else down with me.

Think about it for a moment. I will also take this opportunity to say, "DE, this game has been around for 5 years now. Stop taking the fun out of it with nerf after nerf because it is essentially the easy way out and maybe instead of trying to take everything down a notch, bring everything up to it's level and work on enhancing the content you already have."

Edit: My point is Even if something like power creep set in and enemies needed re-balancing (which honestly they need anyway) at least the frames would be more fun and not just shadows of what they used to be.

Nerfing doesn't always equate to less fun. Those who enjoy challenge would find the game more fun after nerfs. More overpowered = more fun is your subjective opinion. I'm not posting these nerf suggestions out of envy or jealousy. I already have Excal and Ash and I want to use them, but I can't enjoy using them at the moment because there's no challenge nor fun when using them.

As for why not buff other frames, I don't think more power creep is what Warframe needs right now. As for why not buff enemies, the power creep is so far gone that buffing enemies wouldn't even help. We can already survive beyond the point where enemies can oneshot us by just spamming these abilities (scaling up to enemy levels of 700+ and more), how much more enemy buffs would help? So, nerfing these abilities is the way to go.

[fluffysnowcap]

You're nerf are unfun, it promotes broom coubod hiding.

[(PSN)JustAguy91]

Proper scaling is the solution, nerfing should NEVER be the first thing to look at. Look at the general content and the power of our Warframes and Weapons. As you see, our power exceeds the content we are playing. So of course everything is overly-easy. Scale where we are 5 levels under the enemies or something like that but regardless. Scaling is the solution, NOT nerfing..

[Ventura_Highway]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)JustAguy91 said:

Proper scaling is the solution, nerfing should NEVER be the first thing to look at. Look at the general content and the power of our Warframes and Weapons. As you see, our power exceeds the content we are playing. So of course everything is overly-easy. Scale where we are 5 levels under the enemies or something like that but regardless. Scaling is the solution, NOT nerfing..

Don't you think it's a little rude to make a statement that got replied to two posts ago?

[Mental_Omega]

I was expecting this to be about frames like Mesa, Inaros, Octavia or Nidus in particular who tons of people seem to have a bone to pick with for his ability to dominate in endless missions even though that is literally his niche but uh...

Volt?  

Really?  

And out of Excalibur's kit you go for radial blind and not exalted blade which is absolutely obscene with chromatic blade and condition overload?   

You also seem like someone who'd enjoy Vermintide II more than Warframe. 

 

I think it's also worth remembering Warframes for one, are essentially unstoppable gods of war in the setting.

The Tenno at their prime during the old war could fight whole armies of Hunhow sized sentients completely on their own without back up and create planet covering sandstorms.  Old War Era Warframes could probably hammer toss Godzilla through all twenty of the primarchs of Warhammer 40k before tearing every Spartan to ever serve in the UNSC in half with their bare hands before tossing a Tie Fighter clean through the bridge of a Star Destroyer to send it crashing into a reaper and destroy them bothb. 

Even the second rate warframes made with vastly inferior technology and weapons are supposed to be at a level where no number of lancers or crewmen can do anything but slow them down, and where even the best fighters and war machines of the Corpus, Grineer, and Infestation are ultimately going to lose to a prepared four man squad and lose pretty quickly.  The Stalker is (supposed to be) scary because he's one of the only things in the system that can fight a warframe one on one without the backup of an army with any reasonable chance of success.   

Edited May 2, 2018 by Mental_Omega

[Checht]

12 hours ago, Mental_Omega said:

I was expecting this to be about frames like Mesa, Inaros, Octavia or Nidus in particular who tons of people seem to have a bone to pick with for his ability to dominate in endless missions even though that is literally his niche but uh...

Volt?  

Really? 

Looks like someone didn't read the enlarged and bolded texts in the original post.

12 hours ago, Mental_Omega said:

The Tenno at their prime during the old war could fight whole armies of Hunhow sized sentients completely on their own without back up and create planet covering sandstorms.  Old War Era Warframes could probably hammer toss Godzilla through all twenty of the primarchs of Warhammer 40k before tearing every Spartan to ever serve in the UNSC in half with their bare hands before tossing a Tie Fighter clean through the bridge of a Star Destroyer to send it crashing into a reaper and destroy them bothb. 

Even the second rate warframes made with vastly inferior technology and weapons are supposed to be at a level where no number of lancers or crewmen can do anything but slow them down, and where even the best fighters and war machines of the Corpus, Grineer, and Infestation are ultimately going to lose to a prepared four man squad and lose pretty quickly.  The Stalker is (supposed to be) scary because he's one of the only things in the system that can fight a warframe one on one without the backup of an army with any reasonable chance of success.   

Yeah, Excalibur got captured by a bunch of Ghouls in Warframe Issue #1.

[Mental_Omega]

7 hours ago, Checht said:

Looks like someone didn't read the enlarged and bolded texts in the original post.

Yeah, Excalibur got captured by a bunch of Ghouls in Warframe Issue #1.

Ghouls are also incredibly unstable super soldiers who had to be deployed en masse to deal with one isolated warframe.  Regular lancers are about as much threat to a Warframe as grots are to a space marine in warhammer 40,000.   

[(PSN)BlackGuyver82]

To easy to nerf your frames yourself just take off a couple of Warframe mods.  Don’t make the game less enjoyable for everyone else.

[StabbyTentacles]

The fundamental flaw in all the nerfs I read, (must admit to TL;DR) is they are not for the game that exists, the game that is Warframe, May, 2018. They could work if the game had less aimbots, and other indiscriminate 'concerns.' But it does, so many of the Op abilities are now required. Not to mention fun. 

Appropriate scaling is the solution here. With new, unfamiliar enemies replacing DE's, and your need/urgency to hit everything with it's/your nerfhammer.

[DjKaplis]

DE pls nerf people's ability to ask for nerfs. 

If something indeed was too powerful they would notice. Sooner or later.

[bad4youLT]

I disagree with all proposals

ash - single target , anoying to play , use and its extremely slow unless youl be facing enemy lvls so high you and your team wount be able to kill whem fast enough forcing you resort exclusive to this "cheese" move and if your going to speak about nerfing hes invis dont forget to mention loki , ivara and octavia as those frames have same ability

volt - is squishy as is , augment only provides some survivability and CC is important to hes survival

excalibur - only enemys in excaliburs sight get blinded , those who dont look , behind a wall or unaware of him dont get blinded

Edited May 5, 2018 by bad4youLT

[Checht]

Well, seeing some players posting their objections and disagreement objectively is a breath of fresh air.

10 hours ago, StabbyTentacles said:

The fundamental flaw in all the nerfs I read, (must admit to TL;DR) is they are not for the game that exists, the game that is Warframe, May, 2018. They could work if the game had less aimbots, and other indiscriminate 'concerns.' But it does, so many of the Op abilities are now required. Not to mention fun.  

Enemy accuracy is poor when you're moving around.

Spoiler

 

Fun is subjective. When things are too easy, it's not fun to me. It's totally fine with me if you think that's fun, this is a feedback forum anyway.

9 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

I disagree with all proposals

ash - single target , anoying to play , use and its extremely slow unless youl be facing enemy lvls so high you and your team wount be able to kill whem fast enough forcing you resort exclusive to this "cheese" move and if your going to speak about nerfing hes invis dont forget to mention loki , ivara and octavia as those frames have same ability

volt - is squishy as is , augment only provides some survivability and CC is important to hes survival

excalibur - only enemys in excaliburs sight get blinded , those who dont look , behind a wall or unaware of him dont get blinded

True, but my counter arguments are as follows.

Ash - it's fine if you judge "overpoweredness" by how fast you can kill. If you judge it by survivability, all invisible frames are overpowered. I have clarified my reasons of not posting nerf suggestions for other stealth frames.

Volt - a little bit of a stretch here, but if you mod for Efficiency+Range+Duration, you can just stun-lock the whole room by spamming 4. How squishy Volt is becomes irrelevant, as there's no enemies that are even capable of moving.

Excalibur - Enemies not within line of sight pose no threat to you. Radial Blind is also a cheap ability, so you can just recast it to stun any enemies that came out of hiding. Too easy to render whole room of enemies stunned.

[DjKaplis]

It would be nice to have dislike / downvote option on forum to get better understanding how much some posts and comments are liked or disliked by community. 

That way if indeed most of community wants something changed it would be easier to see. Or if a few people start having crazy ideas that almost no one supports that as well would be easier to see.