Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[Emulad0or]

No "Volt's Speed no longer affecting teammates", so no reason to keep reading...

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 hours ago, Checht said:

Good question. Atlas, Oberon, Harrow, Nezha, Hydroid (male frame examples). Basically frames that lack spammable mass hard CC or invisibility. Without those, you will eventually hit a wall when going endless.

 

Atlas is invincible basically.  Even if he's repeatedly smacking one person as long as he's pressed landslide he's given some invincibility.  I recently ran him with an endurance run and things went just fine.  His petrify is hard CC in a decent AOE that gives him a damage boost.  and while you can't mega bump the landlside range bumping range DOES increase the AOE range of his hard CC of petrify AND the explosion radius of things he hits.  You can actually nuke a room with his fist explosions.  I've done it.

Oberon has the ability to CC people with radiation, blind, and his 4's hard cc slam.  His patches when combined with his 4 strip armor, create a guaranteed rad proc with the right stat setup, and keep him and his allies immune to status procs which are a big killing factor in endless missions.  And his 1 has puncture which reduces damage enemies do.  Anytime oberon is overwhelmed he can cast his 4 in a decent AOE to hard cc and blind potentially while stripping armor.  With an augment as long as he's not dying under 90 seconds constantly he escapes fatal damage.  You can also run rage/hunter adrenaline and quick thinking with a big energy pool and also survive.

Harrow has cheap CC with his 1 that feeds his shields which is survival+ apart of his buff that heals him on kills, His 2 is a dps boost and health on kill, his 3 is unlimited energy which means if you have a high energy pool and qt you're basically unkillable.  and his 4 which grants him and his allies invincibility for a period of time and then a damage boost.  Harrow doesn't need mass CC or invincibility.  he's completely self sustainable.

Hydroid has CC on all of his abilities.  His 1 is spammable, cheap, and when spammed covers a blanket area with hard knock down.  Can be augmented to strip armor.  His 2 has an augment that cleanses him and allies he hits from status.  But he could just go into puddle to ignore it.  His 2 also is hard knockdown on enemies he hits with it and doubles as a good movement tool.  Both in and out of puddle.  Puddle is cheap.  Makes you invincible, and is endless CC.  You can dash around in it via 2 casting and you can pull enemies into it.  Tentacle swarm is mass Hard AOE with it's augment able to drop you extra drops like survival air drops.  Hydroid doesn't care for power strength.  So you can spec for super cheap wide covering areas.

I'm not fluent enough with Nezha to comment.

Basically this tells me you don't know other frames well enough.  And that your only critera is "if I don't think it can be spammed or it doesn't have invisibility it's factually balanced in my eyes."  Which is just wrong.  So very wrong.  If you lack experience with most frames then I really don't think you've any ground to cover what is and isn't a problem.

[DjKaplis]

Yea, with current items, mods, arcanes, weapons, focus schools and everything we can combine together in game to make sortie level content a total cakewalk you must realise that abilities aren't the problem. We would need nerfs on every frame, weapon and mod to make current content a challenge.

That's why it is better to ask for content to use all those items on. That's why many people enjoy endless missions. And the challenge there is not to stay invisible or keep up invincibility, it's staying alert and not making mistakes because high level content punishes you for these. 

Many were hoping on onslaught being a worthy challenge but its basically a hydron + survival combo with higher enemy levels from start.

I have seen ways challenge in some games is implemented very well like missions where enemies or bosses activate certain mechanics where if team doesn't communicate well or isnt quick enough to counter these that can result in whole team getting automatically killed no matter how much survivability you have. Or mechanics that in a split second make enemies a lot stronger. Etc.

Boss fights like Ambulas or Kela (or trials was) is a step in the right direction but the examples aren't enough and their mechanics could be made stronger.

What if we had missions where we actually need that cc or invis features? (Like at some point of mission there appear units that unless cced/ killed activate explosives that blow up whole section of map or super strong units appear that you can basically only defeat effectively by hacking a spy vault and getting detected would spawn another enemy)

Just making our frames weaker isnt going to make our enemies smarter and current content more interesting to overcome.

 

[Checht]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Atlas is invincible basically.  Even if he's repeatedly smacking one person as long as he's pressed landslide he's given some invincibility.  I recently ran him with an endurance run and things went just fine.  His petrify is hard CC in a decent AOE that gives him a damage boost.  and while you can't mega bump the landlside range bumping range DOES increase the AOE range of his hard CC of petrify AND the explosion radius of things he hits.  You can actually nuke a room with his fist explosions.  I've done it.

Oberon has the ability to CC people with radiation, blind, and his 4's hard cc slam.  His patches when combined with his 4 strip armor, create a guaranteed rad proc with the right stat setup, and keep him and his allies immune to status procs which are a big killing factor in endless missions.  And his 1 has puncture which reduces damage enemies do.  Anytime oberon is overwhelmed he can cast his 4 in a decent AOE to hard cc and blind potentially while stripping armor.  With an augment as long as he's not dying under 90 seconds constantly he escapes fatal damage.  You can also run rage/hunter adrenaline and quick thinking with a big energy pool and also survive.

Harrow has cheap CC with his 1 that feeds his shields which is survival+ apart of his buff that heals him on kills, His 2 is a dps boost and health on kill, his 3 is unlimited energy which means if you have a high energy pool and qt you're basically unkillable.  and his 4 which grants him and his allies invincibility for a period of time and then a damage boost.  Harrow doesn't need mass CC or invincibility.  he's completely self sustainable.

Hydroid has CC on all of his abilities.  His 1 is spammable, cheap, and when spammed covers a blanket area with hard knock down.  Can be augmented to strip armor.  His 2 has an augment that cleanses him and allies he hits from status.  But he could just go into puddle to ignore it.  His 2 also is hard knockdown on enemies he hits with it and doubles as a good movement tool.  Both in and out of puddle.  Puddle is cheap.  Makes you invincible, and is endless CC.  You can dash around in it via 2 casting and you can pull enemies into it.  Tentacle swarm is mass Hard AOE with it's augment able to drop you extra drops like survival air drops.  Hydroid doesn't care for power strength.  So you can spec for super cheap wide covering areas.

I'm not fluent enough with Nezha to comment.

Basically this tells me you don't know other frames well enough.  And that your only critera is "if I don't think it can be spammed or it doesn't have invisibility it's factually balanced in my eyes."  Which is just wrong.  So very wrong.  If you lack experience with most frames then I really don't think you've any ground to cover what is and isn't a problem.

Good job, you've managed to describe the strengths of these frames. Do any of those fall into the criterion below though?

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

or

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

 

Atlas: Petrify's AoE is only 5.23% of Radial Blind's. Covers 60 degree cone in front of you, so you still need to somewhat aim with his 3. I've already elaborated on Landslide. You're vulnerable if enemies are out of the range of Landslide.

Oberon and Harrow: Their tankiness will eventually hit a wall when enemy damage has scaled up enough to oneshot you. Oberon's CC is soft CC, enemies still have a chance to hit you. Harrow's CC has small AoE compared to radial CC such as Radial Blind or properly modded Discharge.

Hydroid: His 1st can CC by knockdown, would be pretty OP if not for the delay time of barrage from the moment it's cast, lacking a little in immediacy. Again, energy is drained constantly when you're in a puddle and you can only stay pretty much stationary. You can move with 2, but it'll just drain your energy even faster. You can't stay permanently invincible with Hydroid.

Now, compare them to the 3 frames I've mentioned.

Ash: Whole room of enemies? Press 2, no more threat.

Excalibur: Whole room of enemies? Press 2, no more threat. Enemies came out of hiding? Press 2 again, it's cheap anyway.

Volt (modded purely for CC Discharge): Whole room of enemies? Press 4, no more threat.

I'll be convinced if you can take any of those frames and describe how they can immediately neutralize whole room of enemies permanently by just spamming 1 button.

 

5 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

What if we had missions where we actually need that cc or invis features? (Like at some point of mission there appear units that unless cced/ killed activate explosives that blow up whole section of map or super strong units appear that you can basically only defeat effectively by hacking a spy vault and getting detected would spawn another enemy)

That's why I did not say ban CC or invis. Just nerfing their potency, so that you save them for the appropriate occasions, and not just spamming them.

5 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Just making our frames weaker isnt going to make our enemies smarter and current content more interesting to overcome.

Making enemies smarter is pointless when you can just turn off their AI (mass hard CC) or not even engaging with their AI (staying invisible).

5 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Yea, with current items, mods, arcanes, weapons, focus schools and everything we can combine together in game to make sortie level content a total cakewalk you must realise that abilities aren't the problem. We would need nerfs on every frame, weapon and mod to make current content a challenge.

That's why it is better to ask for content to use all those items on. That's why many people enjoy endless missions. And the challenge there is not to stay invisible or keep up invincibility, it's staying alert and not making mistakes because high level content punishes you for these. 

Many were hoping on onslaught being a worthy challenge but its basically a hydron + survival combo with higher enemy levels from start.

I have seen ways challenge in some games is implemented very well like missions where enemies or bosses activate certain mechanics where if team doesn't communicate well or isnt quick enough to counter these that can result in whole team getting automatically killed no matter how much survivability you have. Or mechanics that in a split second make enemies a lot stronger. Etc. 

I'm curious. How would the content that is sufficient to pose sufficient challenge to us look like when we have the abilities to mass CC-lock or be permanently invisible? Do you have some suggestions and elaborate on them? How else can you make mistakes when you're already staying permanently invisible? Walking into accidental crossfire? If accidental crossfire is the only thing you worry about, it is pretty OP to me. I really can't think of a way to engineer challenging content that pose enough threats that can kill us by buffing enemies. The only challenge DE could engineer now is the challenge to kill fast, which is what you see in ESO. We're not afraid of dying in ESO, there's still not much of a threat. The main challenge is just in killing fast, and look at how "well-received" it is by the community when that is the challenge.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Checht

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

5 hours ago, Checht said:

Good job, you've managed to describe the strengths of these frames. Do any of those fall into the criterion below though?

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

or

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

This first part only proves my point that you're not after power.  Just specific things you take personal issue with.

Quote

 

Atlas: Petrify's AoE is only 5.23% of Radial Blind's. Covers 60 degree cone in front of you, so you still need to somewhat aim with his 3. I've already elaborated on Landslide. You're vulnerable if enemies are out of the range of Landslide.

Radial blinds effective range changes based on cover because LoS is required.  Meaning you have to "some what" aim his blind.  And i've already told you.  The range on land slide is irrelevant when you can jack AOE to 200% range and make explosions from his fists cover the room.  Which you skipped over entirely.  and as I said as long as your mashing land slide your invulvnerable for most of what's happening.  I DID mention I ran him in an extended run.

Quote

Oberon and Harrow: Their tankiness will eventually hit a wall when enemy damage has scaled up enough to oneshot you. Oberon's CC is soft CC, enemies still have a chance to hit you. Harrow's CC has small AoE compared to radial CC such as Radial Blind or properly modded Discharge.

So you're telling me that the problem is content DE doesn't balance for is made easy by a small selection of frames?  You do realize they don't balance for content at that level.  and at any point in relevant content that your "problem powers" can make easy normal frames can do just as easily as well.

Quote

Hydroid: His 1st can CC by knockdown, would be pretty OP if not for the delay time of barrage from the moment it's cast, lacking a little in immediacy. Again, energy is drained constantly when you're in a puddle and you can only stay pretty much stationary. You can move with 2, but it'll just drain your energy even faster. You can't stay permanently invincible with Hydroid.

It's like you don't read m8.  Hydroid doesn't have energy problems.  a good mix of energy efficiency and duration and puddles cost is meaningless.  There is a reason he's one of the only frames that can actually AFK intercept missions for hours.

Quote

Now, compare them to the 3 frames I've mentioned.

Ash: Whole room of enemies? Press 2, no more threat.

With the help of covert lethality.  Which requires a dagger.  and any frame with a cc move can abuse this just as easily.  Or if you have the right weapon stance you do an auto finisher anyway.  So any frame can really abuse this. Also invisibility isn't invincibility.  Auras still effect you.  I'd really love to see you try to stay invisible basically forever against either the corpus or the infested.  As long as enemies are alerted they'll attack.  which means aoe blasts still get you.

Quote

Excalibur: Whole room of enemies? Press 2, no more threat. Enemies came out of hiding? Press 2 again, it's cheap anyway.

Radial blind doesn't blind a whole room due to LoS.  And chromatic blade spam with a condition overload stat stick is far better.

Quote

Volt (modded purely for CC Discharge): Whole room of enemies? Press 4, no more threat.

Not true because the enemies farther away from volt are CCed for a lot less duration.

Quote

I'll be convinced if you can take any of those frames and describe how they can immediately neutralize whole room of enemies permanently by just spamming 1 button.

 

Semantics.  In relevant content any frame can "spam" powers or power weapon combos and cheese the content.  One frame being able to cc the whole room isn't really valuable in relevant content anymore since both player power and player survivability went up.  You're argument is moot in relevant content.  Beyond that where we enter OHK territory for even tank frames doesn't matter because DE doesn't balance for that.

Energy economy is a bigger and actual issue that you'd have fair points in.  You're not well informed enough on other warframes or the state of the game as a whole to actually stake a claim with some validity that these powers are real issues.  This whole thread would have gone over a lot smoother if you had just stated these were your own personal issues and not trying to come off as if they are factually broken powers.  

Since you like giving us nae sayers home work for our responses here is one for you.  When I can take literally any other frame than the ones you have issues with with any weapon I wish and clear whatever relevant content you wish to stick me in with relatively the same ease as these "problem" frames how are these powers actual issues?

And i'll reiterate for the final time.  Difficult content should exist.  But it should be a seperate thing.  Not stretched over a game that's meant to be about farming efficiently.  The only actual power problem that currently exists is invisibility.  Which can easily be addressed by adding units to each faction that can find/detect and potentially decloak you.  CC isn't a problem.  and if you wanted to make a case about it you'd be better off getting people on your side if you were talking energy economy.  Not nerfing powers.

Edited May 8, 2018 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[Checht]

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Semantics.  In relevant content any frame can "spam" powers or power weapon combos and cheese the content.  One frame being able to cc the whole room isn't really valuable in relevant content anymore since both player power and player survivability went up.  You're argument is moot in relevant content.  Beyond that where we enter OHK territory for even tank frames doesn't matter because DE doesn't balance for that.

Sure, let's stick with relevant content then. My Excalibur gameplay video has already shown you can just Radial Blind spam all the way to Solo clear Sortie 3 Defense with Augmented Enemy Armor. Do you think clearing things this way by Radial Blind spamming is engaging gameplay?

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Energy economy is a bigger and actual issue that you'd have fair points in.  You're not well informed enough on other warframes or the state of the game as a whole to actually stake a claim with some validity that these powers are real issues.  This whole thread would have gone over a lot smoother if you had just stated these were your own personal issues and not trying to come off as if they are factually broken powers.  

Did you see my alternative suggestions to cooldown timer then? I did say an alternative to cooldown timer would be to jack up the energy consumption for these skills, which is equivalent to a nerf in energy economy. Do you prefer a blanket nerf to energy economy by nerfing energy regen then? That would be a blanket nerf to all abilities.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And i'll reiterate for the final time.  Difficult content should exist.  But it should be a seperate thing.  Not stretched over a game that's meant to be about farming efficiently.  The only actual power problem that currently exists is invisibility.  Which can easily be addressed by adding units to each faction that can find/detect and potentially decloak you.  CC isn't a problem.  and if you wanted to make a case about it you'd be better off getting people on your side if you were talking energy economy.  Not nerfing powers.

Glad that we agree on invisibility then. I wonder how a game can be difficult when all enemies are permanently hard-CC-ed though.

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The range on land slide is irrelevant when you can jack AOE to 200% range and make explosions from his fists cover the room.  Which you skipped over entirely.  and as I said as long as your mashing land slide your invulvnerable for most of what's happening.  I DID mention I ran him in an extended run.

200% range gives you 12 m radius on the third hit of Landslide, don't think it covers the whole room. I think it's best not to exaggerate things if you want to prove your point. I did not say it's not possible to do extended run with Atlas, I've also done that before. The thing that's different is you need to do more than just pressing 1 button to neutralize all threat in a room. Also, my point is you cannot go into invincibility mode when there's no enemies within 14 m range of you.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

So you're telling me that the problem is content DE doesn't balance for is made easy by a small selection of frames?  You do realize they don't balance for content at that level.  and at any point in relevant content that your "problem powers" can make easy normal frames can do just as easily as well.

Sure, but any methods that are best to survive extremely high levels are the best methods to survive the relevant content to begin with. If it is overpowered at level 200, it is overpowered at level 80. Invisibility and spammable mass hard CC are such abilities.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's like you don't read m8.  Hydroid doesn't have energy problems.  a good mix of energy efficiency and duration and puddles cost is meaningless.  There is a reason he's one of the only frames that can actually AFK intercept missions for hours.

Okay, honestly never really tried pure Efficiency+Duration build and abuse puddle before (as it's boring to stay in puddle). If that's true, it's quite a boring frame to play as then.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Radial blind doesn't blind a whole room due to LoS.  And chromatic blade spam with a condition overload stat stick is far better.

Yeah, the few enemies not within LoS are of utmost and immediate threat to you, and you can't recast Radial Blind to stun any additional enemies.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Not true because the enemies farther away from volt are CCed for a lot less duration. 

Get maxed Overextended, Stretch, Constitution, P Continuity, Streamline and rank 3 Fleeting Expertise. Stuns for 8.5 seconds within radius of 23.5 m, 4.25 seconds within radius of 47 m. Costs only 30 energy. Zenurik gives you 150 energy in 30 seconds, meaning it's plenty enough to cast it 5 times even without energy pickups. 5 Discharges give you 42.5 seconds for enemies that are stunned within 23.5 m, much more than the time needed to replenish your energy via Zenurik. Even those stunned at half duration gets ~21 seconds. Who's the one not well informed here?

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Checht

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

15 minutes ago, Checht said:

 

Sure, let's stick with relevant content then. My Excalibur gameplay video has already shown you can just Radial Blind spam all the way to Solo clear Sortie 3 Defense with Augmented Enemy Armor. Do you think clearing things this way by Radial Blind spamming is engaging gameplay?

Nope.  But that's not relevant to what you quoted with this segment.  Spamming radial blind isn't valuable when I can just kill all of them with the aformentioned chromatic blade setup.

Quote

Did you see my alternative suggestions to cooldown timer then? I did say an alternative to cooldown timer would be to jack up the energy consumption for these skills, which is equivalent to a nerf in energy economy. Do you prefer a blanket nerf to energy economy by nerfing energy regen then? That would be a blanket nerf to all abilities.

Actually limiting the amount of energy pads one can carry into a mission would be the route that I would go.  and/or setting a minimum cost for each ability.

Quote

Glad that we agree on invisibility then. I wonder how a game can be difficult when all enemies are permanently hard-CC-ed though.

As hard as they are now when AOE weapons with melee stat sticks that keep your health topped up in relevant content.  Mass CC really isn't hugely important outside sortie tier content because killing power is still very strong.

Quote

 

200% range gives you 12 m radius on the third hit of Landslide, don't think it covers the whole room. I think it's best not to exaggerate things if you want to prove your point. I did not say it's not possible to do extended run with Atlas, I've also done that before. The thing that's different is you need to do more than just pressing 1 button to neutralize all threat in a room. Also, my point is you cannot go into invincibility mode when there's no enemies within 14 m range of you.

Go watch brozimes video on atlas builds for a visual example of blowing up a room with his fists.  With atlas you're spamming 1 most of the time and his petrify on tough enemies. Virtually the same thing.

Quote

Sure, but any methods that are best to survive extremely high levels are the best methods to survive the relevant content to begin with. If it is overpowered at level 200, it is overpowerd at level 80. Invisibility and spammable mass hard CC are such abilities.

No.  Because killing is the best way to deal with any content.  and at relevant levels we do enough damage to kill quick enough that mass CC locking isn't really required.

Quote

Okay, honestly never really tried pure Efficiency+Duration build and abuse puddle before (as it's boring to stay in puddle). If that's true, it's quite a boring frame to play as then.

You don't need to sit in puddle.  I'm just saying it's possible.  It plus the rest of hits kit benefit from this setup to make very easy spammable multiple sources of CC.

Quote

Yeah, the few enemies not within LoS are of utmost and immediate threat to you, and you can't recast Radial Blind to stun any additional enemies.

My point still stands.  You don't blind a whole room.

Quote

Get maxed Overextended, Stretch, Constitution, P Continuity, Streamline and rank 3 Fleeting Expertise. Stuns for 17 seconds within radius of 23.5 m, 8.5 seconds within radius of 47 m. Costs only 30 energy. Zenurik gives you 150 energy in 30 seconds, meaning it's plenty enough to cast it 5 times even without energy pickups. 5 Discharges give you 42.5 seconds for enemies that are stunned with half the duration (at range 23.5 to 47 m), much more than the time needed to replenish your energy via Zenurik. Who's the one not well informed here?

It's a pity that the current wiki doesn't mention jack about the deminished effects the farther away they are so I can't fact check.  But i'll just state that we talked about volt before and you agreed that it's something that's not really spammed.  Half duration is still notable.  My point stands.  These powers are not "op broken" because at relevant content everything else is just as good.  So the value of "mass hard lock cc" isn't as much as you're pushing it to be.  And you didn't answer my question that I gave you.  "When I can take literally any other frame than the ones you have issues with with any weapon I wish and clear whatever relevant content you wish to stick me in with relatively the same ease as these "problem" frames how are these powers actual issues?"

Edited May 8, 2018 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[Checht]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's a pity that the current wiki doesn't mention jack about the deminished effects the farther away they are so I can't fact check.  But i'll just state that we talked about volt before and you agreed that it's something that's not really spammed.  Half duration is still notable.  My point stands.  These powers are not "op broken" because at relevant content everything else is just as good.  So the value of "mass hard lock cc" isn't as much as you're pushing it to be.

I made a blunder actually. I was using 12 seconds stun, which was before the CC nerf. Updated it for that post though. For fact checking, there you go

" Discharge
 - Removed the damage cap. Increased base damage output from 750 to 1200. Damage and stun duration are halved for enemies further away from Volt (affected by Mods). "

The duration is halved after a certain range, and not decreased continuously with range. I forgot where I got the info for half range though. It's not really spammed if you do not purposely build for it. With all those mods equipped, you're only left with 2 open mod slots, which was why I said it's only on the verge of being spammable in a usual balanced build.

28 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And you didn't answer my question that I gave you.  "When I can take literally any other frame than the ones you have issues with with any weapon I wish and clear whatever relevant content you wish to stick me in with relatively the same ease as these "problem" frames how are these powers actual issues?"

That depends on what you define by relative ease. What's as easy or easier than pressing 1 button to neutralize whole room of enemies?

28 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Actually limiting the amount of energy pads one can carry into a mission would be the route that I would go.  and/or setting a minimum cost for each ability.

I can agree with this. Maximized efficiency build does make lots of abilities spammable.

28 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nope.  But that's not relevant to what you quoted with this segment.  Spamming radial blind isn't valuable when I can just kill all of them with the aformentioned chromatic blade setup.

It's only less valuable if you value kill time. I don't think challenge should come in the form of requiring us to kill fast, it should come from threats of enemies being able to kill us.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Also invisibility isn't invincibility.  Auras still effect you.  I'd really love to see you try to stay invisible basically forever against either the corpus or the infested.

Forgot about this. What does it say about the ability when the only way for enemies to overcome it to disable it completely? But it seems that you're already in agreement that invisibility is an issue though.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Checht

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

17 minutes ago, Checht said:

I made a blunder actually. I was using 12 seconds stun, which was before the CC nerf. Updated it for that post though. For fact checking, there you go

" Discharge
 - Removed the damage cap. Increased base damage output from 750 to 1200. Damage and stun duration are halved for enemies further away from Volt (affected by Mods). "

The duration is halved after a certain range, and not decreased continuously with range. I forgot where I got the info for half range though. It's not really spammed if you do not purposely build for it. With all those mods equipped, you're only left with 2 open mod slots, which was why I said it's only on the verge of being spammable in a usual balanced build.

Yeah those numbers are far more appropriate to what I was feeling last time I played volt.  his 4 isn't the best cc.  Though it's good to know that it's a set range and not continuing to deminish the farther out you go.  Not sure if I like how it is currently or if it should be changed to continually deminish.

17 minutes ago, Checht said:

That depends on what you define by relative ease. What's as easy or easier than pressing 1 button to neutralize whole room of enemies?

That's not really the point i'm getting at.  What i'm saying is why would I care about blinding the enemies in the room continually when I can just kill them all?  In my eyes mass cc is only important/valued when enemies actually hurt a fair bit.  So I really don't care that I can sit there and blind enemies "forever" with excalibur when I can just bullet jump through the mission killing everything in my way in 1-2 swipes.

17 minutes ago, Checht said:

I can agree with this. Maximized efficiency build does make lots of abilities spammable.

I think energy pads enable this more than max efficiency.  Since most abilities are reasonable to cast with only some efficiency.  Nearly everyone runs zenurik anyway.  So it's not like you need max.  Really the only time you'd consider it is on very specific frames like Mesa due to her energy guzzling costs or if you're looking at a continual drain ability and you're trying to decide if you can afford more duration or more efficiency.

17 minutes ago, Checht said:

It's only less valuable if you value kill time. I don't think challenge should come in the form of requiring us to kill fast, it should come from threats of enemies being able to kill us.

Yes.  If we were to create a proper challenge for the game threatening enemies would be more ideal than running against the clock.  And i'm perfectly fine with them creating a game type or mode where this is the case.  I'm not comfortable with nerfing abilities for the sake of difficulty in a game that's built upon grinding efficiently.  Sometimes this is needed.  But it's not been at that point in awhile.  and that's partially due to overall player power increasing.  But also because DE has been generous with letting rewards be obtained from and grinded from in most places.

[Checht]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

That's not really the point i'm getting at.  What i'm saying is why would I care about blinding the enemies in the room continually when I can just kill them all?  In my eyes mass cc is only important/valued when enemies actually hurt a fair bit.  So I really don't care that I can sit there and blind enemies "forever" with excalibur when I can just bullet jump through the mission killing everything in my way in 1-2 swipes. 

I see. Then I'm discussing stuffs that are already 2 steps ahead then. If the problem now is that the current endgame enemies are too easy to kill, if DE doesn't want to nerf player damage, they need to buff enemy stats. When enemies cannot be easily killed, what becomes relevant then are these mass CC and invisibility abilities.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think energy pads enable this more than max efficiency.  Since most abilities are reasonable to cast with only some efficiency.  Nearly everyone runs zenurik anyway.  So it's not like you need max.  Really the only time you'd consider it is on very specific frames like Mesa due to her energy guzzling costs or if you're looking at a continual drain ability and you're trying to decide if you can afford more duration or more efficiency.

I'm not taking into account energy pads when I'm discussing the issue of spammability. I'm only considering "natural" energy regen such as Zenurik and the likes. But yeah, energy pads do need to go if we want to balance the game by the route of nerfing energy economy.

 

[BL4CKN0ISE]

14 hours ago, Checht said:

I've never complained about damage, only survivability. I would say 6 s is moderate compared to Radial Blind. The AoE of the hard CC is also much smaller too, it only goes in a straight line. Are you trying to say his 1st can stun-lock whole room of enemies like Radial Blind does?

I'll just skip over armor stripping and Smite, as I've never complained about dealing too much damage, only on survivability. Radiation proc isn't "just as good CC" compared to hard CC, enemies are still attacking and shooting at everyone, including you. Regarding heals, extra armor, and free revive every 90 seconds, all these are out of the window when enemies have scaled high enough to oneshot you.

My benchmark is simple, if the optimal way to win can be described with simple AI pseudo-codes of

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

or

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

They need to be changed IMO. I would like to use Ash and Excalibur once these nerfs are implemented, thus my feedback to DE. It has nothing to do with spite of seeing other players using them and scaling indefinitely in endurance runs. Heck, Volt is my main and I'm still asking for his nerf. They're changes that I would enjoy, have nothing to do with what others are doing with those frames. Thus, my FEEDBACK to DE.

Just learn how to mod your frames. You don't need some strange discipline to keep yourself from spamming abilities. You just need to mod correctly for your desired playstyle. You literally get the best of both worlds because you like a specific playstyle. 

You're okay with doing a lot of damage, so mod for high damage. If you don't like spamming, mod for negative efficiency. If you don't like stunning enemies or staying invisible for a long time, mod for negative duration. 

I'm guessing you're still pretty new to Warframe. You don't need DE to tell you how to play. If you can start a topic like this, you can learn how to mod your frames and weapons to fit your playstyle. Just keep playing and trying different builds out. You'll figure it out soon enough. Don't just copy the "best build" from other players. I know it's easier when you first start playing Warframe, but sometimes they like a playstyle that might be boring to you. Just make sure you get a Simulacrum Key and it will help you find some builds that will make the game more fun for you. 

Anyways, DE won't listen to your suggestions, because what I just told you makes more sense. They're not just making the game for one type of player. They gave us a lot of options to make the game fit a variety of different playstyles. Don't you think that's a better idea? Yeah, me too. 😉 

Edited May 8, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[Checht]

8 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Just learn how to mod your frames. You don't need some strange discipline to keep yourself from spamming abilities. You just need to mod correctly for your desired playstyle. You literally get the best of both worlds because you like a specific playstyle. 

You're okay with doing a lot of damage, so mod for high damage. If you don't like spamming, mod for negative efficiency. If you don't like stunning enemies or staying invisible for a long time, mod for negative duration. 

That's fine if you're okay with game designers relying on players to self-fabricate their own challenge. IMO, good game design should have a variety of optimal builds, and these builds should be the fun and engaging to play. The current optimal builds for survivability aren't really engaging ways to play.

8 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

I'm guessing you're still pretty new to Warframe.

I don't think it's good practice to assume things without much of a basis. Thanks for the concern and advice though.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Checht

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

8 minutes ago, Checht said:

I see. Then I'm discussing stuffs that are already 2 steps ahead then. If the problem now is that the current endgame enemies are too easy to kill, if DE doesn't want to nerf player damage, they need to buff enemy stats. When enemies cannot be easily killed, what becomes relevant then are these mass CC and invisibility abilities.

We got to this buffed state because enemies were over tuned.  Buffing them further just repeats the cycle.  Enemy armor scaling needs to go back to the drawing board before any significant player power nerf can be considered.  I'm much more in favor of making more interesting enemies mechanically that provide a challenge.  enemies being able to shut off our powers are interesting.

Quote

I'm not taking into account energy pads when I'm discussing the issue of spammability. I'm only considering "natural" energy regen such as Zenurik and the likes. But yeah, energy pads do need to go if we want to balance the game by the route of nerfing energy economy.

 

Energy pads are the worst offender for energy economy imo.  then zenurik.  then max efficiency.  I wouldn't say they need to go.  Just severely limit the number you can bring.  EDIT:  this doesn't take in the fact of someone like trinity.  Or rage/hunter adrenaline giving free energy.  and then you get to some other stuff that doubles drops so you get more energy drops.

Edited May 8, 2018 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

Energy pads are the worst offender for energy economy imo.  then zenurik.  then max efficiency.

EV deserves to be be no.1 ... otherwise agreed.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

4 hours ago, Checht said:

That's fine if you're okay with game designers relying on players to self-fabricate their own challenge. IMO, good game design should have a variety of optimal builds, and these builds should be the fun and engaging to play. The current optimal builds for survivability aren't really engaging to play.

I don't think it's good practice to assume things without much of a basis. Thanks for the concern and advice though.

Oh sorry. I just assumed you were a new player because you play with builds you don't like. I had to teach my friend to just do his own thing. A lot of players will complain about a frame and not even think about building it differently than the most popular build. 

Anyways, it's not about self-fabricating your own challenge. It's about doing what you want. You can build however you want and you shouldn't feel forced to use the most optimal build and then blame DE for not balancing properly. If you want to talk about enemy balancing, I can understand where you're coming from. We can't control how enemies scale. We can control how our frames perform tho. That's not bad game design IMO. I think it's actually really good because you and I can both use Ash, but we can mod and use him very differently. I'm not sure why you see that as a negative. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

4 hours ago, Checht said:

That's fine if you're okay with game designers relying on players to self-fabricate their own challenge. IMO, good game design should have a variety of optimal builds, and these builds should be the fun and engaging to play. The current optimal builds for survivability aren't really engaging to play.

I don't think it's good practice to assume things without much of a basis. Thanks for the concern and advice though.

Not trying to defend de or anything but they’re not relying on players for that. They letting the players be free. Cause in that case they should just remove all the mods and say you are stuck with that warframe with no efficiency no strength no operator no anything but the warframe and weapons .... now that wouldn’t be fun considering most frames can get one shot at 30 and stop doing damage at 20. So if you want an engaging game then go play solo by yourself or play with low mr players with no mods then. Or just go to mot and rely on parkour to survive being shot.

[DjKaplis]

25 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Oh sorry. I just assumed you were a new player because you play with builds you don't like. I had to teach my friend to just do his own thing. A lot of players will complain about a frame and not even think about building it differently than the most popular build. 

Anyways, it's not about self-fabricating your own challenge. It's about doing what you want. You can build however you want and you shouldn't feel forced to use the most optimal build and then blame DE for not balancing properly. If you want to talk about enemy balancing, I can understand where you're coming from. We can't control how enemies scale. We can control how our frames perform tho. That's not bad game design IMO. I think it's actually really good because you and I can both use Ash, but we can mod and use him very differently. I'm not sure why you see that as a negative. 

Yea Ash actually. I saw a build video on him by Quinchou that uses Rage / Hunter adrenaline and has lots of survivability without being invisible. Totally against usual builds but it works. Same can be said for all frames - you can mod however you want to play them.

And @Checht before you said that content doesn't matter if you can just spamm an ability - it does matter if we had missions where using ability at the correct time could mean life or death to your whole team. On high risk missions having certain abilities on your frame means that it is now your responsibility to use them right. Not mindless gameplay anymore. It depends on how such mechanics are being implemented but i have seen it being done where in speciffic missions and especially boss fights you have to use right abilities at right time and be at the right place at right time or you just die or even fail the mission.

That would certainly bring difficulty level up to a new unseen level for Warframe and maybe even many of the casual players wouldn't like it (because to get good you usually fail quite many times) but such content certainly would prevent players being careless and just spamming 1 ability.

By the way we even have such enemies in game already that make us more careful. In corpus faction - nulifiers and combas / scrambus (no wonder these are one of most annoying enemies), in grineer faction - bombards, napalms, scorches, hyeka master (try ccing or being invisible when a rocket or pool of fire blows up right next to you), in infested faction - mutalist moas, fart ospreys, parasitic eximuses and ancients (especially healer and disruptor). Even if those already in game specciffic enemies get buffed a bit or if their spawn frequency increases you would very soon find your missions a lot more difficult.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

EV deserves to be be no.1 ... otherwise agreed.

In terms of how much energy given sure.  But your more likely to run into someone with a boat load of pads than someone running a trinity outside high end content.  And an energy pad can be brought by everyone.  I doubt you'd ever be in a full squad of trinities.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

But your more likely to run into someone with a boat load of pads than someone running a trinity outside high end content.

True. But if you'd limit pads per mission you'd immediately see more... lots more. And just the way EV provides even more energy in even less time without any limit at all (only limited by enemies but then again without even one enemy on screen who needs energy to begin with...) make it take the cake for me ;). Call it splitting hairs, my point is mainly: Get it on the nerf list, nao!

[fluffysnowcap]

4 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

True. But if you'd limit pads per mission you'd immediately see more... lots more. And just the way EV provides even more energy in even less time without any limit at all (only limited by enemies but then again without even one enemy on screen who needs energy to begin with...) make it take the cake for me ;). Call it splitting hairs, my point is mainly: Get it on the nerf list, nao!

There is a limit right now.

[Hyohakusha]

On 2018-05-06 at 1:44 PM, Checht said:

Is it not objectively true that Excalibur can mass stun-lock whole room of enemies with Radial Blind? I have already shown that even without Fleeting Expertise or Overextended, by just having Streamline and Stretch, I can already do that in Solo Sortie 3 Augmented Enemy Armor. If you argue that it's because the spawn rate is too low, do you need me to show by gameplay that having 40 blinded level 300 enemies is just as threatening as 10 blinded level 100 enemies?

No, it isn't. You're grossly overstating its range, as well as the effect it has. You build for pure range, you kill the potential of Chromatic/ Exalted Blade or Excal's overall stats due to limited mod space. Even then the range isn't covering the room, and there are dozens of other Warframe abilities that take enemies out of the fight regardless of level much more effectively. Excal is obviously designed to be easy to build since he's DE's poster-boy starter-frame. There are also many other ways to deal with armor.
 

On 2018-05-06 at 1:44 PM, Checht said:

Is it not objectively true that I can scale indefinitely to any levels with Ash? How are you not melee killing enemies fast enough when you're just Fatal Teleporting with CL?

No it isn't. It's not Ash that's responsible, it's Covert Lethality, even if you also have Seeking Shuriken. And you're only hitting one enemy at a time with it.
 

On 2018-05-06 at 1:44 PM, Checht said:

Is it not objectively true that by having Fleeting Expertise + Streamline, paired with duration and range builds, I can mass stun-lock enemies by spamming Volt's Discharge?

Is it not objectively true that there are many other frames capable of doing the same thing far more efficiently, with better scaling against enemy armor, which is why the community at large was asking for his 4 to buffed for so long? A buff which it did get?

 

On 2018-05-06 at 1:44 PM, Checht said:

I am aware of other frames and abilities that are overpowered, and I avoid using overpowered frames. I want to make sure that my nerf suggestions are balanced, which is why I don't post nerf suggestions for other frames that I did not use much, because I did not enjoy using them.

You won't post suggestions about other "OP" frames because you won't use them, and you won't use them because they're "OP". 

You don't see the inherent problem with purposely ignoring certain Warframes due to personal preferences, and then talking about balance?

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

I stopped reading as soon as I got to Ash Smokescreen which was first on the list. You have got to be kidding me. You seriously need to play a different game lmfao.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i remember reading some rework idea for smoke screen making it an actual smoke bomb / throwable invisibility area with a bit of cc on impact and a certain duration during which no other instances of it could be casted. i really thought that would've been quite brillant: 1. it would've been unique, not just the poor man's invisibilty. 2. it would've been more stategic to use 3. it would have made ash more of a team player.

that being said i don't even know what's the actual problem, ash being a "stealth" (invisibility is actually more anti stealth gameplay than anything) and DPS frame at the same time or just how poorly the former is implemented atm. DE made enemies more aware of it over the years but it's still not quite enough imo. some ppl expressed the idea of introducing enemy animal units who would be able to still sniff you out while invisible. this might be another way to go at it but they'd have to be careful not to handle them like scrambuses with their invisible auras which are plain bs.

[Ventura_Highway]

14 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

the former is implemented atm.

Are you talking about stealth? I said it earlier but I'm dead set on thinking enemy awareness is the problem.

If you had in-between states of enemy awareness, like at the very least Relaxed -> Alert -> Aware of enemy presence in room -> Confirmed enemy location I think that would allow for better stealth play. I'd like to do something like park my Warframe behind a corner, slip away in Operator mode and warp out to completely shake off a squad of enemies, then strike again while they still have no idea where I am.

I would then wish Ash would be styled around aggressive guerilla melee. Not the most thoroughly-evaluated thought I've spake.

I'll describe a situation with my idea of a remixed Ash. Ash is in the middle of a killing spree of Grineer when he realizes there are too many of them so he smokebombs out. The grineer that were firing at him have no idea where he is now and use scooby doo logic and split apart to find him. A small squad of them cautiously progress forward when he suddenly pops up out of the void and starts eviscerating the one in the back. In shooting at them, they find they were only attacking a shadow clone that disappears, while the real Ash has already teleported in behind their collective backs to begin some dirty work.

I'd like Ash to emulate that Hollywood sort of idea of a ninja.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Ventura_Highway

[Eivy]

No just no.. Im tired of nerfs.. Buffs maybe, and buff the mobs maybe, but no more nerfs. The point of warframe was to feel powerful.