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Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!


corpuskiller20

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55 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Please for the love of all that is good in this game Do NOT scale the Kuva reward like others are asking.

I want to step into this new Survival type and enjoy myself and play, not have 3 other people screaming at me to GTFO because I don't have the super specific ultra Kuva Endless Meta build on for the 2-4 hour run that is the ONLY way to play on the Node now (even if I join on Public).

 

There is no Survival Meta.

That's why Endless missions have kept Endurance runners entertained for the past 4 years.

I'm sure there will be players who think there's a meta setup but there isn't and the same argument you pose could be said with more potency for DE's other content such as Eidolons where there are very limited ways to approach the same exact fight for an enemy that's immune to majority of abilities. DE is far more guilty of creating meta situations on their own and should listen to the end-game community they have left when we tell them that Kuva needs to scale because from where I'm sitting everything DE has attempted for long term "end-game" has failed while endless missions are still played and we're the ones who made them an activity.

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I think The Main Problem with this right now is the spawn rate of Life Support. If this ever wants to be a viable method of an Endless run, then the life support spawn rate seriously needs to be increased as the mission goes on. Currently, the longer you go in a survival, the life support arrives later and later till you hardly hang on a thread of 1 life support before the next one spawns, if any. So please look into increasing the spawn rate of them, at least for this Endless Kuva since we are sacrificing precious life support(right now it seems like we will be missing out on 15-20% of life support). Also just normal Life support packets from enemies seems to severely drop off the longer you go, it makes surviving even harder, if the drop chance could be increased as well, it would balance out the survival aspect since we will be losing life support compared to other survivals. (side note here. can Life support Packets Please Not Despawn! So much life support is wasted because those packets despawn before we ever get a chance to use them. Its a waste, and just makes surviving harder because your life lines are disapearing right in front of your eyes.)

One more problem, which would seriously need to be taken into account if you want anyone to be able to play endless with this, is that the Kuva Siphon's health dearly needs to scale with the level of the enemies. If after 20 minutes the enemies are able to one shot it then the number of frames that could be brought into a Kuva Survival has drastically decreased. So ya, just a small thing, have the Siphons health scale with enemy level.

I did see some interesting proposals. A ramping up of the amount of kuva dropped every 5-10 minutes would be very nice, even if it ramped up to hit a cap, lets say it increases by 50 every 5 minutes, then once it reaches 400 per tower, it stops and stays at 400 for the rest of the mission. Personally I just want this to at very least have the same kuva/time ratio of doing all of the siphons and floods. We just need incentive to stay longer, so we can push ourselves for a better reward.

Overall I'm looking forward to this... I enjoy survivals, and god knows I always need Kuva. There definitely needs to be balancing to this new gamemode. I would like for the amount of kuva to scale as time goes on, but if that's not going to happen then the amount dropped definitely needs to be raised. 

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1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

 

There is no Survival Meta.

That's why Endless missions have kept Endurance runners entertained for the past 4 years.

I'm sure there will be players who think there's a meta setup but there isn't and the same argument you pose could be said with more potency for DE's other content such as Eidolons where there are very limited ways to approach the same exact fight for an enemy that's immune to majority of abilities. DE is far more guilty of creating meta situations on their own and should listen to the end-game community they have left when we tell them that Kuva needs to scale because from where I'm sitting everything DE has attempted for long term "end-game" has failed while endless missions are still played and we're the ones who made them an activity.

De doesnt want to listen to the end game community because it's the new and uneducated players that make them money.

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6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Perhaps an increase of 50 Kuva per life support?

Still way too low. It should start at 300 and increase by 100 every one. It massively incentives long survivals because people will want to stay longer and longer to get the really big rewards. 

Rememebr, the longer the survival, the harder it becomes to kill, thus the harder it is to get life support drops, thus the more life support cashes you have to use, thus the less kuva towers you'll be able to make per hour or so.... 

Really big rewards at a massive risk of both running low on life support and loosing the entire mission become really really fun the longer you go on. 

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Here is a short list of things I'd like to see:

  • Scaling Kuva rewards! (Reward us for investing more time and better coordination for longer runs!)
  • If you scale it, then also cap it a bit above flood levels. (If my group slashes through flood level enemies it should be compensated like a flood but beyond that it'd be ridiculous) 
  • Scale the tower health (enemies one-shotting the objective is very annoying)
  • Generally in survival: A possibility to leave without the whole team like defense or interceptions.

That's about it.

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Me and my brother both were so excited when u guys announced this last dev stream, such an amazing concept and lot of challenging in this and the risk is amazing aswell, this pushes players to their best and make the most efficient farm.  but biggest flaw is the scaling reward, if that doesnt get fixed this will be dead on launch, 
Scalling reward is a must to reward endless missions. i really hope you think about this feedback

It doesnt even have to keep scalling , maybe cap it at around 20 mins so we can keep getting 400 kuva after that

Extremely amazing concept don't let die on launch please us endurance runners praise these kind of stuff! :)

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really 200 per tower? why you guyz doing this, we asked this cuz we need more and easy kuva. Its not would help to getting more or easy kuva. So i just wanted every kuva enemies drop kuva as like another resources. Im really upset. What for this effort? 

 

Edit: Bounties giving more than 200 per mission. Right?

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The mode itself looks interesting, but what I'm REALLY excited about is the fact that Survival is a step closer to being a mission modifier, instead of being limited to a single mission type. I think there should be survival Exterminates, survival Sabotage, maybe even (shudder) survival Spy missions if you really want to make things difficult. 

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Please don't simplify the vulnerability flow of the Kuva Guardian

The way it is now (blast+dash) is literally the only istance in the whole game where both blast AND dash are the right key necessary for the job. Even Kuva can just be boringly amp shooted on its way to the siphon now

Sure we unlock focus nodes that add new effects to both abilities, and as such may want to use them in all kinds of circumstances just to trigger those. But the only dedicated use of the vanilla abilities is against Kuva Guardians. Specially when talking about the blast

I agree that it is wildly confusing the first time Kuva Guardians are fought (in the war within) and it even gets to the point of ruining immersion since players have no clue how to make them vulnerable, but that is only because no clue is given about how to do it. THAT is the only thing needed to solve this:

  • Make Teshin(tww)/Lotus drop hints about how to stun and disarm the guardians. Repeteadly. It will give players infos to work it out with (even if not on the first shot)

Lotus keeps saying that i have to collect void reactant even at the 99th wave of the same defense fissure mission, so Teshin too can keep dropping vague hints even while "limited" by the circumstances of the quest

The red glow for vulnerable state is a good idea for clarity, and Guardians could also use some improvements in that state so i look forward to fight their new buffed stats, but honestly it is the mechanic required to disarm them that keeps them interesting and different from the horde of other units (in a refreshing kind of way).

As they are now Kuva Guardians are special units that are protected from you and require a special technique to defeat, but after the changes listed here i would just blast or dash a cluster of enemies to apply a focus ability to all of them, and that action would already passively trivialize the Kuva Guardian in their midst and make it die together with all of the others when i turn back and shoot in the fray. And trivializing an interesting, different, unique unit is bad, sad and boring.

We need more challenge, not less

 

Also you may want to consider that the current composite interaction required to disarm them becomes smooth with practice, while remaining an engaging and tricky "break in the flow" of the massacre. Kind of the only reason why we still have the annoying Convergence Orbs is to "break the flow" isn't it?

Then don't go streamlining the slaughtering where the gimmick is actually fun, please

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7 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Greetings, Kuva-thirsty Tenno!

Since The War Within launch on November 11th, 2016, Tenno have been introduced to the continually roaming Kuva Fortress. But contrary to its name, no Kuva can be acquired directly from Kuva Fortress missions. Instead, Kuva Siphon/Flood missions on nearby Planets are what offer that delicious Kuva if completed accurately. 

Kuva is a unique Resource with a particular acquisition method, and we want to make sure the addition of Kuva to the Fortress followed that design intent, while offering players a much requested avenue to acquire it outside of the Siphon/Flood mechanic. 

Our solution comes in the form of a permanent Endless Kuva Survival mode on Taveuni in the Kuva Fortress! This mission will start out like any other Survival mission, but now with a twist! 

Marked enemies will drop something new: Kuva Catalysts.
*Developer note: A Kuva Catalyst carrying enemy will spawn per Life Support tower as either an Eximus or Kuva Guardian. 

Picking up this Kuva Catalyst and simply walking up to an unactivated Life Support Tower, transforms the Life Support Tower into a Kuva Harvester. Now you must protect this Kuva Harvester for 1 minute (as indicated on your UI) as enemies will now logically and forcefully attempt to destroy it. If they succeed in destroying the Kuva Harvester, you will lose out on both Kuva and the Life Support Tower - they don’t mess around with their Kuva!

Once the Kuva Harvester is complete, you can grab your successfully earned 200 Kuva from the completed Kuva Harvester. Completed Kuva Harvesters also give a small percentage of Life Support to aid in your literal Survival. 
*Developer note: Deciding to make the Kuva be a physical Koolaid bottle-looking drop allows for Resource Boosters and Smeeta Kavats Charm to apply! 

*Please ignore the Clem transmission in place of new Lotus transmissions for completing a Kuva Harvester

The design intent and goal for Kuva Survival is for players, both Public and Solo, to balance risk and reward as they sacrifice their Life Support Towers for precious Kuva. Carefully managing available Life Support Towers and Life Support dropped by enemies becomes increasingly important in order to obtain as much desired Kuva possible. 

You can see the original work-in-progress version from Devstream #108 here:
https://clips.twitch.tv/HelpfulFragileLapwingTwitchRaid 

FAQ from Devstream #108:

  • 200 Kuva is awarded per Kuva Harvester- this value is still subject to change with continued testing/feedback. Considering the Endless Survival aspect, this number will allow Kuva Survival to sit in the middle between Kuva Siphon and Kuva Flood in regards to the amount of Kuva rewarded. Tenno who want a quicker Kuva routine can still play Siphon or Flood missions, but those who want to acquire this Resource via familiar gameplay (with a twist) can jump into an Endless Kuva Survival! 
  • Kuva awarded per successful Kuva Harvester does not increase as the Endless Survival mission progresses. Our intent is for Kuva Survival to mimic the mechanic of Excavation/Defense with the intensity of Survival.
  • Kuva Guardians and Kuva Jesters (as seen on Devstream #108) also have a chance of spawning. These enemies add to the twisted variety for Kuva Survival, and gives you a place outside of Siphon/Flood to fight them. Plus, these enemies have been conspicuously missing from the Kuva Fortress....

Kuva Fortress Survival Improvements:

  • Removed cramped and maze-like Kuva Fortress tiles that felt unsuitable for an Endless Survival with an Excavation/Defense twist.
  • Added a repurposed Fortress Defense tile to Kuva Fortress Survival with improved enemy navigation and traversible areas. 

!!NEW!! Kuva Guardian Changes:
In light of all these changes surrounding Kuva, we felt it necessary to make improvement tweaks to the Kuva Guardians (or onion babies as Megan likes to call them). When faced outside of The War Within quest, their mechanic required to turn them vulnerable has been met with some confusion.

As an overall change, Kuva Guardians are now easier to turn vulnerable, but will become tougher to kill once they are. 

Previously vulnerability flow was: 

  • Operator Void Blast to stun, then Void Dash when stunned to disarm their Kesheg and turn vulnerable.

NEW vulnerability flow:

  • No stun state required. Operator Void Blast OR Void Dash to disarm their Kesheg and turn vulnerable.

General Kuva Guardian Changes:

  • Increased base Health from 300 to 400.
  • Slightly increased the Fire Rate of their Twin Rogga .
  • Guardian Health type is now in line with the rest of Grineer.
    • Weaker against Heat and Viral but more resistant to Gas.
  • Added a red glow around the Kuva Guardian to depict when it is invulnerable.


Please keep in mind that everything you read/see in this Dev Workshop is subject to change as we continue testing and reading feedback up until launch. 

We hope to ship this as early as next week, but we of course welcome your constructive feedback and suggestions!

This sounds wonderful but adding in a small chance for siphons to spawn for each harvester created would make it superduper and a small chance for each siphon that actually spawns to turn the mission into a flood for the duration of that siphon would make this ultra hyper mega fantastical. 

 

Please do this! It would be awesome for the [PH]200 Kuva per kharvester to have a chance at becoming 800 or 1400 once in a while (assuming you destroyed the siphon that spawned)

 

Im talking like 5 or 10% chance here 

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Some players have already said that they want the kuva reward and health of the harvester to scale according to enemy level and because the spawn rate of the life support decreases over time. I absolutely agree.

What really worries me though is that progression in this mode is entirely dependent on one certain enemy spawning somewhere near the player/harvester in a timely manner. Can you really guarantee that this will happen in at least 9 out of 10 harvests? Because if not this mode will become absolutely miserable, like solo excavations currently make me feel.

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7 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:
  • Kuva awarded per successful Kuva Harvester does not increase as the Endless Survival mission progresses. Our intent is for Kuva Survival to mimic the mechanic of Excavation/Defense with the intensity of Survival.
  •  


So, a weak version of Excavation with non of the benefits?

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7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Please consider having the Kuva amount scale with time in mission or the amount of kuva siphons completed. As it stands there is no reason to run it as an "endless" mission or a reason to test our gear. It will just be more practical to stay for 10 min and leave to restart which goes against the big reason as to why so many of us want endless Kuva.

 

Edit: There already exists quick missions for farming Kuva, with this addition Kuva Survival will not be much different. I understand that it is just mimicking the existing drops of Survival, Excavation and Defense, but those missions already have this issue. Having scaling rewards with endless fissure missions was a awesome addition and seeing something similar with Kuva Survival would be great.

I'd think something along the lines of the first two Kuva Harvesters giving 200, the next two give 300, next four give 400, then from the 9th on you get 500 + 50 for every 10 minutes you've survived, with a cap at 1,000 Kuva per harvest. Unless someone's got a better idea?

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I really like the idea of endless kuva however can we get some scaling? the point of endless missions is to give incentive for players to stay in a mission longer and longer. i can understand not wanting it to scale to a massive extent in order to prevent a toxic meta from forming, however, i feel that maybe you give other buffs. maybe add kuva drops to the reward table on rotation C? or maybe make the lifesupport capsules health scale? i love pushing my weapons, however this provides no incentive for me to go past 10mins then restart and go again. Warframe is all about efficiency and making overpowered frames/weapons. but besides eidlons, there really is not anything that provides a challenge in this game anymore

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7 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Please keep in mind that everything you read/see in this Dev Workshop is subject to change as we continue testing and reading feedback up until launch. 

Personally, I kinda have an issue with the whole survival aspect; I feel like it might lead to people in the community getting mad at each other for accidentally activating the "wrong" life support modules, etc. Also, people with Nekros running desecrate will just cheese everything because the enemies will be dropping enough extra life support to keep people up without using life support modules. 

I've always felt that all kuva grineer should drop kuva period, regardless of their state; I didn't think it should be tied to a catalyst. HOWEVER, since you guys want to create the challenging "life support vs kuva" aspect, well...to be honest I'm not quite sure how I feel. But's your game. 

Anyhow, as others have mentioned, I do hope that the kuva amount scales along with the survival. I also wish that perhaps the "endless survival" element would work so that the mission just keeps spawning actual kuva siphons, because I think most people will just opt to do the kuva flood missions instead, because getting 1000 kuva/15 minutes (assuming 5 life support are turned into kuva filters during that time) doesn't really match up against speed running squads doing multiple kuva floods (3500+) in the same amount the time. 

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Obviously I can't expect to get the same amount of Kuva per tower as I would from a single Kuva Siphon, but with the time it takes for every tower to spawn, getting only 200 Kuva (without scaling) would make the whole mission useless for me. It would just end up being wasted time, or at best, a secondary Kuva farm while waiting for more siphon missions to show up. 

But since enemies scale with the duration of a survival mission anyway, I feel that it's logical to scale the amount of Kuva along with it. Basic risk vs reward, where the reward is staying longer in survival, not just defending the Kuva survival tower. The reward proposed in the workshop isn't actually very rewarding.

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1 hour ago, VenomousValentine said:

Wow so you mean the mission gets harder but the rewards stay the same! 

I think what they're going for is a point of diminishing returns, which I kind of agree with....Players intent on trivializing as much content as possible shouldn't be rewarded for trying to do so.

That said, I think the base rewards are a bit weak, all things considered. I'd suggest an incremental bonus amount per successful harvest after the first, but with a cap after reaching a certain amount as @JDxiC and @NinjaKitsune56 suggested.

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53 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

There is no Survival Meta.

There is now a Defense/No-Life Support Tower Survival mission. This is such a Specific and new style of Survival that there's GOING to be a Meta.

(Read previous "Desecrating Nekros!!!" comments in this thread and you'll plainly see the Meta starting to build)

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Looking forward to trying this out. Last mod farm we ran there was at least 40mins and we never used support towers, unless reload too close to it. 

So that was 8 towers that could have drawn kuva. Dropping 200 would be 1600. Login rewards, baro, spare plat from trading could get u a doubler bringing it to 2400. Then smeeta without universal vacuum, allowing choice of when to pick up kuva-aide 4800 to 9600. 

Then those rare resource double weekend 4800 to 19200... 

Thats a good bit of of kuva we could have got in addition to the 4 rotation A, 2 rotB & 2 rotC rewards to go along with mods, credits & resouces picked up, xp and focus earned.

While it would be nice if kuva-aide was more than 200 or scalable, there is more being rewarded from mission. The kuva is optional addition.

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