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Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

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while i acknowledge that you want kuva survival to:

11 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

sit in the middle between Kuva Siphon and Kuva Flood in regards to the amount of Kuva rewarded

unless it's base reward is like 500 or something without a booster, people will still spam siphons and floods, and probably won't bother with enemy scaling for a reward as little as 200 base.

ninja edit: despite what others are saying in this thread, i think the harvester not scaling health is fine. gives a need of protection similar to excavators and would likely incentivise a team comp built around it. i do believe that the kuva amount should scale though, otherwise people will just run the kuva survival until the siphons and floods reset.

Edited by boat
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Please give us a reason to do this over siphons and floods and stay for a long while, as a veteran player I'm bored with the lack of challenge offered in regards to the gear I have.  Kuva should scale upward and give us a reason to stay in kuva survivals for hours.

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9 minutes ago, boat said:

unless it's base reward is like 500 or something without a booster, people will still spam siphons and floods, and probably won't bother with enemy scaling for a reward as little as 200 base.

Lets consider that a life support drops roughly every 2 1/2 minutes, so you'll get 2 every 5 minutes. Considering most Siphons could be done in 5 minutes, the base amount it needs to give is 300 Kuva to be on par. 

Since scaling rewards are pretty much universally demanded at this point starting at 200 and scaling up to 400-500 would make a pretty good sweet spot.

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I think almost all of you are so focused on the numbers that you are missing the worst part of this plan; They want us to ignore Clem! The evil Devs want to replace him! This is a mission to stick it to the Queens on their home turf, Clem is up for this, Clem needs this, Clem must be our guide on this mission. Space Mom and Sim Mom don't understand, Clem does. Clem will guide us to the Kuva. 

All Hail Clem!

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Having the Kuva scale with the enemy difficulty would be helpful. A lot of veterans have been looking for something to do in-game as most content is now for newer to mid-game players. If the Kuva doesn't scale, players won't have enough incentive to play the mission type as regular Kuva missions would yield better results per time, and effort, put into a given mission.

Edited by ThatOneGuy818
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Sounds great! I love the idea of having another way of acquiring kuva especially if it's a survival mission however I believe that it should scale. Start off with only getting a little bit of kuva and the longer you go you should start getting more kuva from each harvester. It wouldn't be worth it if it was just 200 from each tower no matter how long you play. 

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I like how this looks, but it brings out a deeper issue about endless missions, in that, outside of fissures, there's no motivation to stay past rotation C.  Staying in and getting Kuva from Harvesters until level 100 would be, at best, the same effectiveness as leaving after 20 minutes or so.  There is no reward for the increased difficulty of staying in longer.  The rewards don't get any better.  Increasing the amount of Kuva from Harvesters (or Cryotic from Excavators in Excavation) the more you do could be a step in the right direction.  Maybe add some risk/reward so that chaining successful Harvests(/Excavations) provides additional Kuva(/Cryotic), but having a failed Harvest will reset the next Harvest to the base amount.

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My one complaint is 'kuva rewards won't scale because we want it to match how excivators work.' 

 

Apologies but excivators not giving ecilating rewards is ALSO annoying. Other than that? I'm happy with the amount listed in testing, and and the fact kuva guards are now going to be in the kuva fortress, along with a streamlining of their 'operator check' into anything the operator does will temp disarm.

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11 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

you can grab your successfully earned 200 Kuva from the completed Kuva Harvester. Completed Kuva Harvesters also give a small percentage of Life Support to aid in your literal Survival. 
*Developer note: Deciding to make the Kuva be a physical Koolaid bottle-looking drop allows for Resource Boosters and Smeeta Kavats Charm to apply! 

200 :Kuva Harvester  Every 150 seconds.. sacrificing LS for it
550-700  Kuva Siphon 
1,100-1,400 Kuva Floods

So to get 3500 Kuva from a harvester i have to spend about 45 Minutes in a survival.  Or i can do 2-3 Floods.

harvesters need to have a LOT More kuva.  500 minimum to make it worthwhile to even bother doing.  

Please inform me if i am wrong, but i do not know of any consumable that needs 3500 Cryotic, like Riven re rolls

Frankly, it would be a LOT more helpful if you re did now RIven Rerolls worked and allowed us to "lock in" certain stats instead of dealing with the RNG at 3500 kuva a roll

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200 kuva is not enough to make it worth doing. To roll a 10+ riven at 3500 kuva it would take 18 (17.5 pods but rounding up since you can't get half a pod) life support pods. Say a pod spawns every 2 1/2 minutes and that would take 45 minutes for the 18 pods. Considering in practice it would take longer since pods spawn farther apart as you go for longer periods at a time you're looking at an hour or so to roll a 10+ riven once. 

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I can see the logic behind making it less rewarding in a way since 'you can do this for casually gaining kuva while farming for relics or resource farming' but to be frank? Going 'here you can spend an hour doing this One Thing' or 'here do a pair of kuva missions and a flood in ten minutes' just feels like you demand we waste our time if we don't want to do the kuva balloons. Not everyone is going to like the kuva tileset and will do the kuva siphon missions anyway because of mission variety. 

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I don't agree with two things here,

  1. Making kuva "cat friendly" is the same thing as making it not fair to everybody who's not using the cat.  DE just fixed cat buffs applying to operator because it put weird artificial gear selection pressure on eidolon fights,  so why are you keeping that same kind of synergy here?  Will you introduce game modes for other companion types, where if you're not using the obviously superior choice then you're just wrong?  Where and when can I expect to get double loot for using a Raksa or a Dethcube?
  2. Nerfing Guardians isn't awesome. This is one of the very few enemies in the game that has any real strategy or sequence of events you need to do to beat them. The bash-and-dash mechanic is not complicated once you understand it, and it's mildly satisfying to be able to do it quickly and proficiently. If players aren't able to do this maneuver, then it's a problem with how it's exposed in War Within not an indication of a problem with the design itself.  Instead you've opted to increase Guardian's firepower, when they were *already* brutally powerful at Flood levels and capable of killing non-tank frames in one shot.

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I think it needs to give more vs the time investment. 200 really isn't that much, even with a booster 400 is still nothing when you compare it to the 3500 that it costs to roll one time. With a booster you still have to harvest 9 siphons to get a single roll, without one it's 18. That's a whole ton of wasted time and struggle for little gain. Considering how many enemies overrun you and the frequency of napalms in the fortress it's not really that enticing to run. On top of that you're given the problem of using your life support, and the time taken to run to the enemies that have the kuva filter and then run to find the life support in a confusing tileset. It's not really doing the best with our time for a small amount. 

I don't think it needs to be scaled, because that just causes a meta of frames you "need" and if players don't run them then they're flamed and parties won't take them. It's been seen before in things like eidolon runs, the old void keys, even random farming parties at berehynia. The amount of kuva just needs to be upped that's all. 

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I am still 4 months old on this game, i love it and this is my 3rd post on this post because when u guys introduced this i thought this is something i can do daily with my friends in game, i wasn't in a time where void keys existed i love running endless missions on this game ( they can be improved but they are exhilarating and very risky higher u go) 

Right now, this scaling reward is a must especially how riskier it gets when u go past 30 minutes the life support models dropped from enemies even start to slowly stop,
Even warframe wiki says this about life support capsules (the one lotus drops)  -" Occasionally the Lotus will drop off life support capsules that restore 30% on activation, starting fairly frequently but the time between drops will get progressively longer you have" Since life support capsules spawn rates slow downs if there is no scaling reward exists this can become a seriously obsolete mission, imagine doing 1 kuva harvester at around 45 minutes only to get 200 kuva.

 you have to be very skillful and mindful and this Mission can test your builds and your warframe (finally a mission that could make sense to everyone to go past lvl 100+) but the way the scaling mechanic is rn lot of people wont run this and even who run this will only stay 5-10 mins which makes it a terrible endless mission (almost like an survival alert/invasion)



This concept of the mission is greatly designed but if you can make the reward system work the way the community are asking for it ( Knowing about you guys i know u all are listening @DE) , this will be one of the most played nodes in the game if you get the rewards right and people would actually think to run it for more than 30 minutes.

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oh i got a thought came across to my mind

 

while i saw the 2nd gif / short mp4, i was thinking like this

 

instead of directly insert the kuva catalyst as soon as you move close to LS tower, why not have like "press X to insert kuva catalyst"? just like when you insert the datamass in mobile defense mission

 

besides, players are required to protect them for a while while that LS tower do the job

 

the idea is, whenever if the player happened to pass by the LS tower while carrying the catalyst, it can be averted as if the player itself didn't mean to insert the catalyst to that LS tower

 

and whenever if they seek the possible closest LS tower to their "camping spot"

Edited by Primbone

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You guys finally did what ppl asked for, a RELIABLE? source of kuva gain. But it is not perfect.   

Riven rolls end up with 3500 kuva, and who the hell would play surv with 200 kuva to farm 3500 kuva for a roll, me for sure not. I´m fine with the nonscaling HP for the filters, but bare in mind, that this wont be any reliable source, it should be somewhere around 400-500(maybe 500 is too much) so players can actually choose to play the kuva survival, or random siphon or even kuva flood, without making any of the possible farm ways as an obsolete source of kuva so they are equal, to not make any of the content "out of date" and "dont farm kuva there, this is the meta"... 

Sure there are enthusiast who will do surv kuva, thats fine as long they have fun, but let them be rewarded for it. 

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I'll never understand what causes developers like you to think that people want to play longer and harder to be "rewarded" such a tiny amount, if anything at all, IE- 2,000 credits for doing any length of time for any activity that isn't Earth based. People like to be appreciated. Weird thought, I know, because I'm sure when all of you get your paycheck you say "man I was really hoping it was rotation C this week so I could get 5 pieces of bread for all that overtime"... It just doesn't make sense. 

Happy, appreciated, cherished players = more time playing by them and all the people the tell about it. This is why you'll have the most registered users but never have the amount of people playing that you want. Why you'll never be on that Steam list for _________. 

Reward the players for the time they put in or they will continuously leave. Very, very, very simple. 

At least Far Cry 5 will be out in a few days, and hey, at least Ubisoft has made attempts at getting their players happy and listened to the community. 

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why is this doohickey canister able to make this 'Kuva' stuff appear out of thin air? ideally there should really be.... some sort of connection between this and the world around it so that it not only makes more sense, but can have more interesting mechanics than another 'go AFK and wait for the timer' thing in the game. the game is... basically entirely built on going AFK as it is, it doesn't really need more of it.
what to seek after then? maybe...

  • something that has the Enemies (or their corpses) being used in the process to create this Resource.
  • something that naturally occurs in the Grineer Fortress (and everywhere but much more there i guess) that is being harvested? such as some sort of NPC that would naturally occur everywhere(except Defense/Interception since they take place in a single Tile) in the System, and Kuva Siphons / whatever we're calling these things-in-Survival harvest them? could even be harvest them to increase the amount extracted, while Killing them with bullets would give some amount but much, much less.
    obviously outside of Siphon Missions and this Survival you'd just Kill them outright as there would be no way to harvest them.
  • generation rate&speed based on number of living things nearby, all nearby things get harvested to produce the Resource? meaning Players, Companions, Enemies, everything. would mean letting Enemies get sorta close would be beneficial, which is much more dangerous than nuking them before they come into the same county.

or just have a company meeting on what you want the Lore behind this stuff to be in the Story, and then decide what mechanics to make that will work within those parameters. in universe 'Kuva' has only barely been mentioned, yet we now deal with it on a daily basis. but nothing has happened with it yet in the Story.
either way the goal should have several added layers to give Players something to do other than stand around and wait for a Timer. standing around and waiting while we check our E-Mail isn't interesting Gameplay.
basically overall, what the hell even is this crap and how do the Grineer collect it, and how do we then copy the Grineer to take it for ourselves?

- - - - - 

i agree that the amount given probably isn't appropriate and there isn't a skill risk involved with it either. the problem with trying to nail this Survival between Kuva Siphons and Kuva Floods is that Players complete both of them in basically the exact same amount of time. because it's the same thing, but with higher Level Enemies. so since all of the AFK'ing Timers are the same, that means the Mission completes in the same amount of time +/- like 30 seconds. at any rate i'd recommend the amount per Life Support Tower to be 300-350.
i hope more than one is allowed to run at a time, but most importantly is that the more of them you run at once, the more you should get. and not just 600 because you did 3 at once, but rather that the more active at once increases the amount that you get from them as long as that many survives ofcourse. something like +25% to each tower for each Tower higher than 1 that is simultaneously active when each expires (so rather than 3 of them giving 600, 3 of them running at once gives 1050 via [[200 * 1.75] * 3]). the reason for this is two part: because it's an added skill risk and that adding this skill risk makes this Kuva collecting more interesting to do. maybe do the same with the Life Support the converted Towers end up giving off as well.

ideally do both - increase the starting amount somewhat and also have the skill risk bonus.

- - - - - 

while we're here, what of a Non Endless Gamemode to be able to thematically anchor Kuva into the game&story? take the idea of Assault / Fortress Assault and... take it where everones' mind goes when they imagine that. something like a Lv50ish Mission, with the Enemy Difficulty Multiplier maxed (which would be fairly rare for a Non-Endless Mission), starting with the Eximus Chance capped out at that 20% that we get after being in a Mission for a long time, with hard variants of everything Spawning from the start, with the Alert/Invasion style Enemy Spec that has significantly more Specials/Heavies than normal Missions do.... hell even add in Air Support from not just Dargyns with their pew pew Guns but also Gunships and Battleships - mix all of that and anything else you can together and put that as a sort of 'Assault/Raid' (the OG Raid Gamemode, not the 8-player Raids) where the goal is to penetrate into the core of the Grineer Fortress to get to some 'vault' or something of that sort to steal a large sum of Kuva all at once(such as say 2500-3000, with a target Mission length of ~15 minutes). the really spiced up Enemies plus hopefully having extra Traps and reinforcements should make this feel different and actually a bit challenging to complete because of the game pushing back so hard.
 

 

you really can't blame anyone for wanting Endless to have some incentive. so that people don't feel like wanting a small bit of challenge / not wanting playing a game to feel extremely bland means they are punished for not enjoying bland.
but more importantly, that Endless Void Tears worked out pretty well as to have some reason to actually play Missions for an extended period. and even despite them being so good, it's not uncommon for Players to not want the bonus l00t. so if you have some amount of scaling Rewards, you don't have to worry about them being too popular... Endless Void Tears are already the best in the game for grinding certain things and Players aren't all flocking towards them. instead just some interest.

Edited by taiiat

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This is a welcome addition! Lets hope that you will consider adding kuva as maybe a drop or resource pickup in small amounts to the other missions in the kuva fortress.

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Are you aware that you need 3,5k kuva just for reroll a riven ONCE? Stop forcing us to buy resource boosters just to make kuva farming somewhat reasonably rewarding for the time invested. Even with the resource booster we would still  need ~10 kuva harvesters to get only ONE reroll! 

Edited by Gweredith
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None of the missions scaling is an issue in general. It removes the need to fight that lvl 150 bombard and we just do 4 rotations and out and reload because there is no point.

If DE does not want it to scale then make it more frequent so if people want to maximize farm they have the option to defend multiple after a point. Risk and reward

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Wouldn't the in game boosters that apply to every rotation naturally increase the kuva drop amount. IIRC the first pass of rotations AABC gives 25% of each booster the second gives 50% all the way up to 100% bonus resources and drop rate. If that mechanic applies to kuva then tenno would get rewarded the longer they play anyway.

Edited by viperveteran

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1 hour ago, Momaw said:

I don't agree with two things here,

  1. Making kuva "cat friendly" is the same thing as making it not fair to everybody who's not using the cat.  DE just fixed cat buffs applying to operator because it put weird artificial gear selection pressure on eidolon fights,  so why are you keeping that same kind of synergy here?  Will you introduce game modes for other companion types, where if you're not using the obviously superior choice then you're just wrong?  Where and when can I expect to get double loot for using a Raksa or a Dethcube?
  2. Nerfing Guardians isn't awesome. This is one of the very few enemies in the game that has any real strategy or sequence of events you need to do to beat them. The bash-and-dash mechanic is not complicated once you understand it, and it's mildly satisfying to be able to do it quickly and proficiently. If players aren't able to do this maneuver, then it's a problem with how it's exposed in War Within not an indication of a problem with the design itself.  Instead you've opted to increase Guardian's firepower, when they were *already* brutally powerful at Flood levels and capable of killing non-tank frames in one shot.

"Unfair to people without a cat" it's not an exclusive item. Go get your own cat. 

To me it's unfair to get this gear and not see any benefit over S#&$ters like you who want the game to be even more noob friendly than it already is. Us veterans have no challenge and frankly it's insulting to say the things i worked for give me an unfair advantage. 

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