Jump to content
corpuskiller20

Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

Recommended Posts

i think the best way to scale kuva is to have equivalent kuva for the first part of the survie than a normal kuva siphon :

nomral 550- 700 , so for the first 5 minuts weed need to drop at lest that , then  the amount of kuva augment whit time , ( because you now enemy level up ^^ ) . and it's important , the fisrt 5 min dosn't give more of the normal mission oserwise it will replace the normal mission. 

Like that , if you have time you do a mission endless, if you not, you have siphon or flow.  and of course you need to drop more that flow in 10 min becose oserwise flow will be the alternative and no one will play endless mission.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with everyone to an extent on Kuva reward should scale but with a cap and I think the Kuva tower's HP should maybe stay the same cause then it makes people to protect it then rather it scale. If the kuva towers did scale in HP players would kinda of just pop the filter in and go off killing while not minding it. I would love this game mode while soloing thanks DE for this and upcoming content.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get these concerns about an enforced Meta Setup, there are so many viable options and powerful combinations that you can make almost every Frame and Weapon work in endless Survival. This meta would be way less strict than Eidolons and everything else that currently has some sort of Meta approach.

There's simply no other mission type that has more variety in viable options to succeed than Survival, so a certain Meta wouldn't be clear cut at all, the only Frame that's somewhat required is Nekros because of the piss-poor Droprate on life Support from enemies that is reduced even further the longer you play. If that would be fixed that'd open up more variety and prevents Nekros from being mandatory.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is absolutely awesome! I personally disliked how Tenno had to specifically go out of their way to farm only one resource (Kuva). However this adds an element of fun to acquiring kuva which is awesome. 

As per what everyone else is saying? I agree the kuva rewards need to scale especially since kuva floods reward 1k+ kuva. With that mechanic there is no incentive to play this new mission type.

One last note, if enemies are scaling and we have to choose between lifesupport and kuva, then the lifesupport drop rate has to change. Currently as it stands when a survival begins an incredible amount of lifesupport drops and less drops as time goes on. I understand this is to make it challenging but if we are choosing between kuva and ls, Tenno are going to need heavily rely on ls drops or the mission will just turn into a regular survival since they won't have the opportunity to turn the Ls into kuva. This will also prevent meta squads from forming because the way things are right now, every team will be running at least one nekros. Thank you! Love the game !

Edited by Jadeslayar1021
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Previously vulnerability flow was: 

  • Operator Void Blast to stun, then Void Dash when stunned to disarm their Kesheg and turn vulnerable.

NEW vulnerability flow:

  • No stun state required. Operator Void Blast OR Void Dash to disarm their Kesheg and turn vulnerable.

Why not just implement this for "the war within" too? That fight was not difficult, just unintuitive and confusing. And now you will add to the confusion by changing the rules for the fights after that enemies introduction?

Otherwise seems good, doing floods then this new "endless" kuva mission will be less annoying than kuva mission on spy or other nonsense.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:

"Unfair to people without a cat" it's not an exclusive item. Go get your own cat. 

To me it's unfair to get this gear and not see any benefit over S#&$ters like you who want the game to be even more noob friendly than it already is. Us veterans have no challenge and frankly it's insulting to say the things i worked for give me an unfair advantage. 

First off, no need to be so hostile. I've been around forever, I've seen the game through the years, I understand the lack of challenge and it weighs heavily on my soul.

But it's not about fairness in the sense of having "earned" the extra rewards.  That's not what I'm saying.  The problem here is that there is quite simply nothing else that boosts kuva drops. You don't use the cat because you like the cat, you're forced to use it because no other pet doubles the kuva you get.  It restricts the practical variety of stuff that players can pick to the only one that has any effect on kuva farming, the same way that only one kind of pet having any effect on the operator made it so there was an obviously correct choice for hunting eidolons.  It bothers me that a game mode is so obviously favorable to one specific pet out of the many other options we have. You "could" use other pet types for kuva survival, but why would you, since you are knowingly throwing away mission rewards unless you use the loot cat.

When the game has 16 different kinds of companion available, I want the freedom to use the one that suits my play style and not be forced to use the only one that boosts this game mode.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, viperveteran said:

Wouldn't the in game boosters that apply to every rotation naturally increase the kuva drop amount. IIRC the first pass of rotations AABC gives 25% of each booster the second gives 50% all the way up to 100% bonus resources and drop rate. If that mechanic applies to kuva then tenno would get rewarded the longer they play anyway.

That is literally only for Fissures. Which don't appear in the Kuva Fortress.

1 minute ago, kyori said:

Or why not make the kuva reward goes as by rotation? Something like 200, 200, 300, 400? At least there’s an incentive for people to play longer into the mission else I foresee most will just go for the usual siphon/flood for fast n better reward. 


That would be fine, if the next 20 minutes would be 600, 600, 700, 800; followed by 20 minutes of 1000, 1000, 1100, 1200 and so on. A single Rotation is not the end of the mission, and missions need to start respecting that instead of resetting the rewards while the difficulty scales higher and higher.

Edited by Aceofgods
Another reply

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Kuva awarded per successful Kuva Harvester does not increase as the Endless Survival mission progresses.

Since the reward doesn’t scale (as in increase), so it’s only kind of fair not to scale enemy levels too?

Or why not make the kuva reward goes as by rotation? Something like 200, 200, 300, 400? At least there’s an incentive for people to play longer into the mission else I foresee most will just go for the usual siphon/flood for fast n better reward. 

Or if die die want to stick to non-scaling 200 kuva reward, at least make a leadership board on this? Because people like to boast their accomplishment, it’s natural. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Aceofgods said:

That is literally only for Fissures. Which don't appear in the Kuva Fortress.

NP it is still a valid template for increasing the Kuva drop rate in a manner that has been successfully done before

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 41 minutes, Aceofgods a dit :

That is literally only for Fissures. Which don't appear in the Kuva Fortress.

But then again why not extend those modifiers to other endless missions? 

il y a 36 minutes, viperveteran a dit :

NP it is still a valid template for increasing the Kuva drop rate in a manner that has been successfully done before

I agree. Probably 300 base with the Fissure booster scaling would be really neat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, viperveteran said:

NP it is still a valid template for increasing the Kuva drop rate in a manner that has been successfully done before

Yeah, that would be nice. I thought you were saying that they are already in game, and applied to every Endless mission... frankly, I wish they would. We need more reason to stay past 20, if DE isn't going to add anything challenging to do besides spending hours in a single mission.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Endless Kuva Survival looks like a game mode I can really get behind. I do think that the reward would be better scaling with higher levels due to the increased difficulty and crowd control needed to keep the enemies away. This would reward the people who recruit dedicated squads for longer runs and would introduce players to the vast scaling that Warframe has that they wouldn't normally experience due to the current meta of resetting after the fourth rotation of loot (in most cases).

Regarding Kuva Guardian changes, I think it does streamline the game play more and is a welcomed change. I am curious as to how these enemies will scale in an endless mission type regarding their armour, as well as damage output to the Harvester. I do have to ask though, at current, is it intentional for them to not be affected by Limbo's Time Stop both while invulnerable and vulnerable? (I also find this issues with some rollers)

Ideally I would like to see a scaling change of endless missions in general to encourage players to try longer runs and teach them how to plan their squads and maybe learn different mechanics of frames to use with one another. I do know that this is something that would take time away from more current projects, but felt it a proper time to bring it up.

Edited by iGrimzar
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though it has been said many times before I would like to repeat it to make sure DE knows how many of us want this.

Please consider scaling the Kuva amount in this mission. To me far more important than the amount we receive is whether people will play the mission on a 5, 10, 20 or 60min cycle. If you have a look at other endless mission types you will notice that people tend to stay just exactly as long as it takes to get to their target reward rotation. Especially in public groups. There is just no incentive to stay longer and that is quite sad.

I feel like putting in the effort and knowledge required to build a team that can tackle 1,2 or even 5hr runs should be rewarded instead of punished. Enemies scale, the mission gets harder you will use consumables etc. and at the end the newbie group that farmed for the same amount of time in 20min cycles got the same results. What is the point of making a mission type endless if there is no incentive to stay beyond the target reward rotation?

For people to spent time in this mission it needs to have a scenario in which it is more efficient kuva farming than kuva siphons (not more efficient than floods since these very limited in amount of farmable missions). To me the most welcome solution would be that over the course of 40min-1hr the endless mission should be more efficient than kuva siphons. If it is always more efficient people will just not play the kuva siphon nodes anymore and if it's never more efficient hardly anyone will play the "endless" mission.

I dearly hope DE reads this thread and picks up on some of the ideas presented here by the most involved members of the community.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So first and foremost: Thank you DE for atleast introducing an alternative for those players who dont want to run Kuva Siphons over and over again!

However I get why many players here are upset about not implementing any reason to stay longer in an ENDLESS mission, which is why I propose two things:

1. Kuva Guardians are very interesting yet kind of useless enemies. They annoy you, you make them vulnerable and kill them. But actually you don't really have to kill them, nor is it remotely worthwhile to do so. Hence I think Kuva Guardians should drop a fixed amount of Kuva when they are killed. Don't nail me on numbers. but I'd consider 50 Kuva a reasonable amount.

2. When relics were introduced, we've got a very interesting mechanic, as different boosters started to scale the longer you stood in the mission. Same could be done for Kuva survival. Add a multiplier which goes up by 0,1x for every 5 minutes you surive, BUT this will cap at a certain multiplier (e.g. at 2.0x). So staying 24 hours in the mission and getting millions of Kuva - which would obviously completly break the economy around rivens - cannot be a thing. This way you would encourage players to stay longer in those missions without making it too easy to get unlimited Kuva.

  • Like 1
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regard on the matter of reward scaling, why not go with on every complete Rotation Cycle AABC increase the rewarded kuva value by a small percentage.

For example,
1st Rotation: A - 200 kuva, B - 225 kuva, C - 250 kuva
2nd Rotation: A - 220 kuva, B - 248 kuva, C - 275 kuva (Increase by 10%)
-
Until Nth Rotation (Capped at 100%. increase)
Nth Rotation: A - 400 kuva, B - 450 kuva, C - 500 kuva

Of course the per cycle increment and final hard cap could be adjust to better suit the whole design direction.

The above suggestion is made based on the existing mechanics of Enemy Level Scaling, Non-Scale Kuva Harvester Health and Life Support Tower spawn rate that get slower as time progress.

Some other concern is on,

  • The method on activating the Life Support Tower into Kuva Harvester, I would prefer to do it manually by pressing X while holding the Kuva Catalysts then having it activate automatically by walking close to it. (Because this might create error when we desperately need Life Support and accidentally turn it into Kuva Harvester.)
  • The decision to make Kuva into physical Koolaid bottle-looking drop is kind of pointless saying that it's to allows for Resource Boosters and Smeeta Kavats Charm to apply! Kuva Siphon and Flood Mission works without any physical drop so this change is not really necessary. Please keep it as it is.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like many here I am pleased to finally have kuva on the kuva fortress, it's a fantastic tileset, but other than cyclone kraken, I haven't really had any need to go there.

I am also of the opinion that this game mode should have a scaling reward.

Kuva is only needed for mid to end game players (have to have completed the war within, and actually have quite a collection of rivens, or normal kuva missions would likely have gotten you the rolls you wanted on the few rivens you have)

It would be fantastic if these mid to end game players finally had a reason to really push themselves (sorely lacking since the death of the void)

The endless kuva mission as you have proposed will likely just be run for relatively short amounts of time as there is currently no need to keep going once the enemies get tough.

 personally I think any of the following ideas will really go a long way to making endless kuva missions viable in terms of risk/reward and make this mode appealing to the hardcore players who truly like the challenge, but need the reward for their efforts.

1: add a small resource booster, like in fissure missions, after every rotation cycle (every a,a,b,c = 25% resource booster)

2: add kuva into the rotation reward tables, doesn't have to be guaranteed, but should have a reasonable chance, maybe replace all those easily found mods. And the reward should be higher in line with the rotation (rotation a=30% chance at 200 kuva, rotation=25% chance at 500 kuva, and rotation c=20% chance at 1000 kuva) this would encourage players to at least go 20 minutes, but they will likely not go beyond, and just restart instead

3: scale the kuva reward from each catalyst, so the more catalysts you complete, the more they reward. Even just going up by 5% will encourage players to keep pushing and pushing because the rewards will increase and make it worth the risk.

4: make enemies have a chance to drop small amounts of kuva, around the same rate as oxium. As players stay longer in the mission, more enemies will spawn, and so more potential kuva dropped, making long runs more worthwhile, same as farming other resources in game

I know you are very concerned with keeping the balance to make sure syphons and floods aren't redundant, but I think the balance should have the time and difficulty considered also. A flood usually takes less than 10 minutes, and deals with level 100 enemies, what ever you do, by the time the enemies are scaling to that level, the reward should be the same, if not, slightly higher to represent the extra time we have been doing the mission. 

With your expectation that the time/reward efficiency will be somewhere between syphons and floods, it would be much easier to just do them and not deal with enemy level scaling

Please, don't miss this chance to give meaningful end game content to the long time players who only need one resource, kuva.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It all sounds great. Only request is can you make it so you have to interact with the tower inatead of just approach it in order to activate the kuva harvester? It would be very frustrating to realize you needed to use the life support tower after it has already activated the kuva automatically. Atleast this way, you can choose to drop and use life support and activate a harvester 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Kuva awarded per successful Kuva Harvester does not increase as the Endless Survival mission progresses. Our intent is for Kuva Survival to mimic the mechanic of Excavation/Defense with the intensity of Survival.

Please please reconsider it, endless fissure scalling rewards was so great, however it did not killed none scalling game modes like fissure exterminate capture etc.

You can make it right, right numbers and calculations, not aggresive scalling like +5 kuva every 2 kuva towers gathered, any scalling will do peoples want incentive to form those well synergizing teams and stay in a mission for 25-50 minutes. Remember there can be maximum cap of scalling. Whenever that curve can be reached also for developers to decide.

My suggestion is to add another twist -> after enemy successfully destroyes 4-8 of those none scalling in health kuva towers -> players can no longer gather kuva, kuva queen wins & express her attitude towards tenno stealing her precious sauce, however tenno can continue normal survival at this point, gathered amount of kuva is left for tenno to keep.

Mode ending condition is really important because it serves the purpose of risk & reward, also works as additional safeguard to prevent players going too deep into rabbits hole. If thats not enough cap out scalling at some point so it would stay at reasonable amounts, maintaining it is rewarding, but in meantime enemies still scales and mission getting harder.

Please you can do both modes, none scalling kuva survival, and harder scalling kuva survival with more twists to overcome:

  • casual / public matchmaking experience / none scalling (where special team is not needed and players can have fun/good time); (((Developer intent is met)))
  • risk & reward mode / premade teams / scalling kuva more dangerous / extra harvesting ending conditions (where squad gameplay is at higher level, synergies between warframes are used to great extent). (((Playerbase wishes are met))) *can still be made for public matchmaking but how long do the random team would last before harvesting ending conditions are reached!

 

  • Like 1
  • Satisfied 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking forward to this but in addition to the scaling of rewards through an extended mission, (should be the case for excavations etc. as well too,) my concern is also the:

"Picking up this Kuva Catalyst and simply walking up to an unactivated Life Support Tower, transforms the Life Support Tower into a Kuva Harvester."

I would imagine this has the potential for unintended activations, (especially in pub groups,) where you really need to keep a tower for survival and accidentally activate a Kuva Harvester instead and cut short a run.

It was obviously set up this way for a reason - could you please explain what that reason was and why it is preferable to deliberately activating the towers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

scaling scaling scaling scaling SCALING SCALING SCALING

Also kavat buff dictating your so called endgame is complete bullS#&$.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...