Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

[0meg4x]

Aren't Life Support towers supposed to spawn slower (take more time to spawn) as time goes on?

 

I think that could mess up the rate at which one earns kuva in this survival, to the point it's not worth it staying any longer.

 

This is pretty much all I'm worried about, I don't care if kuva rewarded is a bit less or not. As long as I don't have to deal with Loading screens and rushing through halls to get to the objectives and then to extraction. xD!

[darkland1609]

Alright i know that alot of people said what am gonna say already, but hey, the more people, the best.

 

The amount of kuva really needs to scale, otherwise, no one will pay attention to this, since in normal kvua flood missions, you get more, and in less time, experienced players farming kuva, do that missions in les than 5 minutes, it depends on the mission of course, but yeah, so that number needs to scale, since its name is endless, the kuva should be more and more and more, so we can feel the "endless thing" again, like the old void, and t1/2/3 keys, playing 1/2 hours of survival, i hope DE listen to us this time haha

[IceColdHawk]

Sorry but this is just disappointing. Where is the endless about it when you get incited to leave after max. 20 minutes because it gets harder but no more rewards and also where is the incentive to do it when 200 kuva is almost nothing?

[Ecliptix]

When I first read this thread I was disappointed by the 200 Kuva and lack of motivation to do this it just wont be worth it. I was also disappointed when I read that the new onslaught may have anything to do with focus. We already have had multiple upgrades to getting focus why do we need more? Also focus is for operators so it should be operator related in some way eidolons sorta make sense onslaught makes no sense for focus imo.

[0_The_F00l]

I have a suggestion, how's about those bottle things that the carriers drop come in levels of quality, the lowest quality gets you 200, higher quality gets you 50 more and so on, so it makes sense from scaling perspective, 

Also what if I know I can't protect that life support column? 

It would be nice if the bottles themselves get converted to kuva if unused, or have a mini kuva extractor available in foundry to convert the bottles to kuva(a small amount) and scraps. Cause we love waiting for things to be built. 

This way I can stack up on kuva passively. 

[(XBOX)Silens Phoenix]

I think everybody that's jumping on the 'scaling kuva rewards' train is forgetting one thing. In survival, you can take another person's time and effort hostage. Unlike in most other endless missions, with the exception of excavation, where you can extract at any reward break you want, regardless of your teammates' desire to stay or go. There have been many cases of players not caring about their teammate's desire to leave and instead staying in the survival for hours and forcing them to make the decision of aborting and losing all of their rewards, and thus the time and effort they put into the mission, or staying for much longer than desired.

As it stands now, there is absolutely no reason to stay in survival past any given 20 minute marker, these super long missions are nothing more just a collection of A******s public queuing when they want to go until they can't anymore. If endless kuva scaled endlessly, then there would be an actual reason to stay for hours on end, assuming that you can protect the siphons. And let's be real here, there's going to be a dozen varieties of cheese for this S#&$.

So while I think that kuva survival should scale to an extent, I cannot support the idea of it scaling endlessly. There's still an important variable that we don't know, which is the spawn rate of the enemies the carry the kuva filters. If they spawn only once every 5 minutes or spawn once the previous kuva harvester has been completed or spawn once the previous carrier dies; that answer changes how quickly one can acquire kuva in kuva survival. Are we going to be waiting on more life support towers to drop or for more carriers to spawn?

Here's my 2¢

•  Make the rewards scale over time or kuva harvesters completed to a cap.
• This cap should either be equivalent to a Kuva Siphon per completion or an average of a Kuva Flood every 15-20 minutes.
• The cap should be reached within roughly 30-40 minutes of the start of the mission.

Would this solve the issue of people holding a teammate's kuva hostage because they want more and more and more? No, but it's infinitely more likely to happen than completely endless scaling rewards. And later they can implement the same fix that they used for solving PoE's extraction issue.

[bronzebonobo]

Well then, not even worth doing to be honest, but I am sure someone is happy about it maybe.

[dyewithasmile]

2 things ... why dont the enemies spawn properly and consitently and reliably in survival? is that fixed? do i still need animal instinct and enemy sense to still not have enough life support for reg survival sometimes? but now im going to give that up for kuva? This needs to be rewarding and kuva isnt fundamentaly... it needs something badly... i grind out 30k kuva for 1 good ish roll and 1 barly b grade roll... that i dont keep... feels good getting kuva... feels way bad spending it... increase amounts gotten or change roll dynamics (let me spend more to cycle a rare neg stat line) let me pay alot to lock 1 stat line)... i am the person this is for and i wont run it unless rivens stop killing me... side note 1300 plat decorations not up becuase kuva// limbo is killing this game for me in a big way

[dyewithasmile]

It needs to be 600 kuva per 3 min to do what i do now... i need to be able to leave as solo... how is limbo going to effect the use of filters will he be able to remove me from activating life support like he does now?

[aw3ren3ss]

Let's assume we get 2 life support capsules for every 5 minutes and we do a run for 50min where we manage to use every single capsule as a Harvester.

That would leave us with 4000 total Kuva.

Here's my suggestion:

reduce the ammount of Kuva for the first Harvester to 100 but increase the ammount awarded for every subsequent Harvester by 10% (round the numbers) 

That would leave us with ~5700 total Kuva after 50min 

Shure, this would leave you with ~49K Kuva after 100min. But I personally wouldn't see that as an unfair award for a team that had 100min to spare and managed to go 100min into a lvl 32-34 scaling mission and keep killing enough enemies to keep the life support going. And if anyone still thinks that would be too easy let's keep the fixed HP on the Harvester and add a "pollution" condition that reduces the remaining life support by 20% if the Harvester get's destroyed.

Feel free to elaborate further on this.

[Duduminador]

I have to point out that I don't believe the Kuva Guardian changes are addressing the issue. I actually believe that some of the complaints on these mobs are misdirected.

It's not that Kuva Guardians are hard to deal with, nobody wants to take the time to address a mobs weakness when there's another player nearby abusing the spin attack. Which ALWAYS happens. The person who takes the time to be useful, that will switch to operator and stun the Guardian is also the one player guaranteed not to kill it, because that less than one second it takes to switch back to the Warframe and shoot at it, is more than enough time for the spin abuser to get past the guardian.

[Hixlysss]

So, looking at this...why is there no mention of some colorblind assistance with finding the kuva? Like on infested missions and the like it's a royal pain to notice this dark splotch moving towards the kuva as it blends in with the dark and red background of infested missions...and the kuva fortress is gonna be the same.

[Nasrol]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Silens Phoenix said:

I think everybody that's jumping on the 'scaling kuva rewards' train is forgetting one thing. In survival, you can take another person's time and effort hostage. Unlike in most other endless missions, with the exception of excavation, where you can extract at any reward break you want, regardless of your teammates' desire to stay or go. There have been many cases of players not caring about their teammate's desire to leave and instead staying in the survival for hours and forcing them to make the decision of aborting and losing all of their rewards, and thus the time and effort they put into the mission, or staying for much longer than desired.

I think you make a very good point there.

Disclaimer: I didn't bother to read a good portion of this thread on the middle pages, so if this has been suggested already and shot down, sorry. :)

I personally think adding this as a survival game mode is the wrong way to go. For one, it's a mission type where you can in theory get away with having to kill very little thrown at you. As Silens correctly states, this is going to see cheese builds galore and survival is the game mode that works best with cheese IMO. :) I would like have liked to see endless scaling, so despite Silens (good) point about not adding it, I still want to see scaling added. With regards to scaling, if a resource booster effects the Kuva amount you get (which is a great idea), will the mission +25% resource bonus modifier you get for a complete rotation not also boost the Kuva reward (if not, it should)?

I think this proposed implementation is a wasted opportunity. I would have liked to see this introduced to a defence mission. You protect the Kuva siphon and at the end of each 5 waves the reward goes up a little. By its very nature, defence also means the players have to kill all the enemies to progress to the next round, which cuts down a lot on cheese tactics. It always makes more logical sense for this to come from a defence object, rather than a life support module...

This could have been a great way of reversing the siphon flood mechanic, we have our own Kuva extractor to protect and we have to stop the enemies (i.e., the Kuva guardians / Jesters) from blocking it reaching the siphon. Forcing the players not just to survive, but to actively have to respond quickly to kill specific enemy types. That I would have found fun. It would also have the added bonus that players could choose to leave every 5 waves without being locked in.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

1 hour ago, Nasrol said:

I think you make a very good point there.

Disclaimer: I didn't bother to read a good portion of this thread on the middle pages, so if this has been suggested already and shot down, sorry. :)

I personally think adding this as a survival game mode is the wrong way to go. For one, it's a mission type where you can in theory get away with having to kill very little thrown at you. As Silens correctly states, this is going to see cheese builds galore and survival is the game mode that works best with cheese IMO. :) I would like have liked to see endless scaling, so despite Silens (good) point about not adding it, I still want to see scaling added. With regards to scaling, if a resource booster effects the Kuva amount you get (which is a great idea), will the mission +25% resource bonus modifier you get for a complete rotation not also boost the Kuva reward (if not, it should)?

I think this proposed implementation is a wasted opportunity. I would have liked to see this introduced to a defence mission. You protect the Kuva siphon and at the end of each 5 waves the reward goes up a little. By its very nature, defence also means the players have to kill all the enemies to progress to the next round, which cuts down a lot on cheese tactics. It always makes more logical sense for this to come from a defence object, rather than a life support module...

This could have been a great way of reversing the siphon flood mechanic, we have our own Kuva extractor to protect and we have to stop the enemies (i.e., the Kuva guardians / Jesters) from blocking it reaching the siphon. Forcing the players not just to survive, but to actively have to respond quickly to kill specific enemy types. That I would have found fun. It would also have the added bonus that players could choose to leave every 5 waves without being locked in.

What prevents this from being cheesed is a combination of time invested and how even a meta setup will require at least one or 2 of the actual life support pods to be used, as the overabundance of rng of enemy life support drops makes a method too inefficient outside of use at least some of the pods for their actual intention.

[Nasrol]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

What prevents this from being cheesed is a combination of time invested and how even a meta setup will require at least one or 2 of the actual life support pods to be used, as the overabundance of rng of enemy life support drops makes a method too inefficient outside of use at least some of the pods for their actual intention.

Thats a fair point and you may be right there, I had read that the Kuva support pods would still add something to the life support. I guess it depends in part on how big of a contribution they still make.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, Nasrol said:

Thats a fair point and you may be right there, I had read that the Kuva support pods would still add something to the life support. I guess it depends in part on how big of a contribution they still make.

yeah, it just worries me that it will give too small an amount or diminishing returns per extractor as a slap in the face of those who wish to have an endless kuva mission.

[XeLLoOoOo]

I really dont care how much kuva i earn per min, i just care how much roll i can have per day, or how i can come closer to wanted stats per day. In this system impossible to find wanted stats.

Look like we delayed again? Cuz tomorrow is mid week. 

[Lawmonark]

8 hours ago, (XB1)Silens Phoenix said:

I think everybody that's jumping on the 'scaling kuva rewards' train is forgetting one thing. In survival, you can take another person's time and effort hostage. Unlike in most other endless missions, with the exception of excavation, where you can extract at any reward break you want, regardless of your teammates' desire to stay or go. There have been many cases of players not caring about their teammate's desire to leave and instead staying in the survival for hours and forcing them to make the decision of aborting and losing all of their rewards, and thus the time and effort they put into the mission, or staying for much longer than desired.

As it stands now, there is absolutely no reason to stay in survival past any given 20 minute marker, these super long missions are nothing more just a collection of A******s public queuing when they want to go until they can't anymore. If endless kuva scaled endlessly, then there would be an actual reason to stay for hours on end, assuming that you can protect the siphons. And let's be real here, there's going to be a dozen varieties of cheese for this S#&$.

So while I think that kuva survival should scale to an extent, I cannot support the idea of it scaling endlessly. There's still an important variable that we don't know, which is the spawn rate of the enemies the carry the kuva filters. If they spawn only once every 5 minutes or spawn once the previous kuva harvester has been completed or spawn once the previous carrier dies; that answer changes how quickly one can acquire kuva in kuva survival. Are we going to be waiting on more life support towers to drop or for more carriers to spawn?

Here's my 2¢

•  Make the rewards scale over time or kuva harvesters completed to a cap.
• This cap should either be equivalent to a Kuva Siphon per completion or an average of a Kuva Flood every 15-20 minutes.
• The cap should be reached within roughly 30-40 minutes of the start of the mission.

Would this solve the issue of people holding a teammate's kuva hostage because they want more and more and more? No, but it's infinitely more likely to happen than completely endless scaling rewards. And later they can implement the same fix that they used for solving PoE's extraction issue.

Well, there is always the option to "leave Squad", it will host migrate you to your own instance.. then you can leave.

[(XBOX)Silens Phoenix]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

What prevents this from being cheesed is a combination of time invested and how even a meta setup will require at least one or 2 of the actual life support pods to be used, as the overabundance of rng of enemy life support drops makes a method too inefficient outside of use at least some of the pods for their actual intention.

Nekros exists. I've never found myself wanting for life support while playing as or with a Nekros, unless people are spreading out for no reason. If somebody runs off and goes to be a hallway hero, then that's when Nekros can't just literally carry the entire mission on his rickety bones. Otherwise? Before they took out Shadow Step, I'd just go on 2-4 hour solo survival runs as Nekros for traces or polymer bundles. Even now, the two main frames I'd bring to survival are Oberon and Nekros, with Nekros winning out unless I find someone else that's willing to bring Nekros.

[(XBOX)Silens Phoenix]

31 minutes ago, Krhymez said:

Well, there is always the option to "leave Squad", it will host migrate you to your own instance.. then you can leave.

Unless they've already implemented the Plains of Eidolon fix into the rest of the game at large, which the continued questions of when are they going to do that suggests isn't the case, then that won't fix the issue. They also need to fix losing rewards during host migration, as no matter how many times they 'fix' it, it still happens from time to time.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)Silens Phoenix said:

Nekros exists. I've never found myself wanting for life support while playing as or with a Nekros, unless people are spreading out for no reason. If somebody runs off and goes to be a hallway hero, then that's when Nekros can't just literally carry the entire mission on his rickety bones. Otherwise? Before they took out Shadow Step, I'd just go on 2-4 hour solo survival runs as Nekros for traces or polymer bundles. Even now, the two main frames I'd bring to survival are Oberon and Nekros, with Nekros winning out unless I find someone else that's willing to bring Nekros.

That was with Nekros factored in, try again tenno. I have noticed that rng makes it unviable, hence what i said.

[CatOverrun]

Keep running kuva flood generates 25k kuva per hour without booster.

So if this endless kuva is worse then nothing will change.

[Nephalem]

Or Add Kuva Excavation instead of Kuva survival?Kuva Excavation would work exactly like the normal ones but with an increace of kuva per excavator making it more worth the grind then normal missions.The problem is that (if i remember corectly) there is no excavation mission on the kuva fortress thus making it a bit difficult to make.Still id rather se a kuva Excavation rather then the survival with life pods kuva.IF DE will stick to implementing it in the survival map then that game mode needs to get a lot of changes starting with the mob spawns and life support capsule health (in lategame survival it will surely get 1 shot by the enemys).

[GA-Bulletproof]

No Scale -> No Play!

It is that easy. increasing the amount every 10 min by 50% of the innital value still doesn't give us too much kuva if you cap it at 5000/ tower.

Starting at 200 -> 10 min 300 -> 20 min 450 -> 30 min 675 and so on until we hit 5k per tower at which enemies will be onshoting them.

At least then it will be fun.

[(XBOX)Tyreal2012]

Whilst I like the idea of endless kuva and the scaling (which does need to happen). I'm actually OK with 200per node on the proviso that all enemies have a chance to drop 5/10 kuva on death. 

That way we can kill happily for as long as we want, whilst using kuva siphons and because of the chance to drop kuva also along siderunning the siphons and floods. 

Every enemy in kuva fortress regardless of should have the chance to drop kuva at the same level so we at least have some reason to go there. 

Even add kuva into the spy rotation on the fortress like how they did the dual stat mods, not everyone likes survival so a bit of variety for gaining kuva would be nice.