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Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!


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Recap of pre-release opinion: Flat-gain is not beneficial for marathon runs. Extracting at ~24 minutes was "ideal".

That opinion was based on the long-standing tower timer. With this latest update for tower spawning every 90s, just going by the numbers, it is always beneficial to run endless survival (with a perfect group).

Per-second Kuva gain never drops below 2.2. Standard Kuva missions are about 2/sec.

Per-rotation Kuva gain fluctuates between 600/rot and 700/rot. The median is 650/rot, when extrapolated to Rotation 1800. 

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I did my first run with a couple clan mates a short while ago and first impressions are below:

  • The 90 second delay between spawns of the life support towers is too long, we were basically not using them for anything but getting kuva which essentially turned into an artificial time gate on how much we could do in a set period of time.  Time delay either needs reducing or we need more than one to spawn at a time (below issue). 
  • There was only 1 life support tower active at any one time so we were stuck at 200 kuva per 90 seconds no matter what we did.  You might as well just give us 133 kuva per minute spent in any mission on kuva fortress.
  • 200 kuva really doesn't feel like a good reward for the amount of effort required, I spent roughly 30 mins in the survival mission which came out at about 8800 (smeeta and boosters helped push it up), I could get roughly the same, if not more doing considerably easier normal kuva maps if I pick the quicker missions.  Scaling would help but I still feel we need a higher amount to start with. 
  • Not sure if it's a bug or I've just never noticed it before but we lost the last 25% or so of life support really quickly.  The life support packs dropping from enemies kind of need a small buff or being fixed too, I saw life support raise by just 2% when I pickd one up while wiki says it should be 4.67%
  • Even with nekros, spawn rates of life support modules from enemies seemed too low the higher you go.  Obviously there's going to be less as we're killing slower but it almost felt like they stopped being dropped from loot table. 
  • It's about as enjoyable as doing cryotic excavation, which isn't very
  • Still doesn't give a reason to do the other map locations on the kuva fortress.
  • Enemies ideally need to drop a small amount of kuva, doesn't need to be much, even 2 kuva would make a difference, imo.  We killed around 2000 enemies as a squad, if the enemies dropped just 2 kuva we'd have gained another potential 4k kuva, that's another roll of a riven.  It can also be used on ALL maps on kuva fortress not just the endless one.
  • Whole concept of needing to get air while using the health tower has caused an extremely limited choice of frames for efficient farming.
  • No scaling on the health of the life support towers (an issue with excavation etc too)
  • Will be locked into the mission if others don't want to leave and vice versa... which could force us to have to abort the mission losing all our loot (same issue with ALL endless missions except defence)

 

In all honesty though the biggest issue with kuva/rivens is the actual cost of re-rolling a riven, even after 30mins doing this mission I basically only had enough to do 2 rerolls at the full price and thats with a booster AND smeeta charm kicking in, without it I would have got 1 reroll.  I know kuva/rivens are end game but the current system basically feels like high risk gambling and well that's not fun, or something I'd actually be encouraging children to do either in all honesty.  .

 

Edited by LSG501
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On 3/22/2018 at 3:55 PM, FollowTheFaceless said:

Say that to cryotic high level missions.

you get 100 cryotic and a random reward to boot eg relics or endo compare that to a paltry 200 kuva also unlike excavations you need lifesupport to continue playing were as even if there arent any powercells you can still go on until you get one.

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well this certainly came out as well as i expected. (hope everyone can tell this is pure sarcasm) nope this is terribly bad but at least we still have good old floods and siphons, also for all my fellow survival lovers that were looking forward to this coming out good, sparking the start of proper respect and new life for endless missions for us to final get a reason to go longer know the disappointment is felt,i have only this left to say i pray for all u i hope those who can continue the fight voicing on for real incentives for endless, one day gets rewarded for their efforts here best of luck to all a u

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@Deathmk56 Well if you expected it to be
1°) Unrewarding
2°) Not endless at all with the well known and identified constraints of a survival mission
3°) Unrewarding
4°) A mission having having strict constraints on Warframes to use for playable efficiency
5°) No incentive to to longruns EVEN if they were possible.
6°) Did I say unrewarding?
7°) Not giving us any incentive to do anything on the rest of the tileset (which is basically get to survival and don't bother ever)

If you expected all or any of the above, well, you could say it turned out as well as you expected with a straight face.
I'm sorry to rub the salt in the wound, DE, but we told you so.
 

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1 hour ago, Morkislair said:

@Deathmk56 Well if you expected it to be
1°) Unrewarding
2°) Not endless at all with the well known and identified constraints of a survival mission
3°) Unrewarding
4°) A mission having having strict constraints on Warframes to use for playable efficiency
5°) No incentive to to longruns EVEN if they were possible.
6°) Did I say unrewarding?
7°) Not giving us any incentive to do anything on the rest of the tileset (which is basically get to survival and don't bother ever)

If you expected all or any of the above, well, you could say it turned out as well as you expected with a straight face.
I'm sorry to rub the salt in the wound, DE, but we told you so.
 

haha u totally nailed it bro

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3 hours ago, YandereWaifu said:

you get 100 cryotic and a random reward to boot eg relics or endo compare that to a paltry 200 kuva also unlike excavations you need lifesupport to continue playing were as even if there arent any powercells you can still go on until you get one.

Excavator level also not scaling and this is progress stopper when it can be oneshoted, so no - it's not better.

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8 hours ago, (XB1)Silens Phoenix said:

I don't know what survivals you've been playing, but let me say it in another way. Over the last 100+ hours of survival that I've played with a high range despoil Nekros, I've only had to activate life support once. Often we're overflowing with life support to the point where there will be 3% life support missing and somebody vacuums up 3-4 life pods, so 17% just vanishes into the void. However, it doesn't matter because for the whole duration of the mission, the only time I ever see the life support drop below 80% is because we're running to extraction and thus we're not killing things.

Two steps to great success in Survival:

  1. Bring Nekros and a few weapons that can cut up corpses
  2. Join with your fellow tenno to become a roving ball of blades and bullets that leaves nothing behind but an endless trail of health orbs.

Follow those two simple steps, and you'll never have to worry about running out of life support unless you're also the type of person who literally never gets any drop you're looking for out of relics, even common ones.

I hate this new endless kuva, but I agree having life support is not an issue.

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Well idea is nice but kind trickey, i mean on life support. just did 2 at once and boom out of life support xD it was first 5 min of mission.  Some players are complaining on ammout  of kuva. Some of them are like to increase ammount by 50 every 5 min instead of current 200 each time. Or having opposite of siphon and flood as we have atm, mean you need to charge each bard like 200 kuva , and charge siphon for another 800, and repeat that every 5 min, mechanic  would be similar to excavation ( still debate on if should be instant reward per charge of bards and siphon it self or on compleation of charging siphon as total sum of gathered kuva. this would affect on having kavat and booster since you could get more kuva if you are luckey of charm proc).  Either way i do like idea but need some rework. 

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I'm not sure why DE is so afraid of touching the whole kuva thing.

I'm not saying it needs to drop like nano spores.
I think it can probably increase the Plat circulation, because at some point there will be no more "WTB cheap Lanka riven".
Everybody will actually level up their rivens, and only sell for a higher price.
I mean, if you get a riven that you want, you will not sell it anyway, you will just take your time, and farm kuva until it's good.
It would only make this process faster and far more rewarding (farming 30 mins for 3.500 kuva, and re-rolling your riven in about 5 seconds, to get a bad riven, is one of the most frustrating things this game can offer you).

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On 3/22/2018 at 1:58 PM, Synpai said:

Sigh I wish we would get these things before they're about to be shipped......kind of a waste of feedback but oh well here goes.

 

I understand you're trying to manage kuva farming using the life support but it really feels the same as normal kuva missions with different mechanics. In it's current state I imagine it's "use every tower for kuva until X minutes when things take far too long to kill to be valuable"

-Reward issues with smeeta (A.K.A. Go solo and.....Wait for it...)

-Resource chance boosters going unused

-"Map fatigue" - It's complicated, I hate normal kuva missions, but I don't really want to be locked down to JUST doing the Kuva Fortress either. There are times when I want to crack open a cold one and sit on void tilesets (like the old days) and other times when I wanna run around like a manic in Fissures.

 

I feel that Excavation (Kuva instead of Cryotic) or hijack would've fit so much better than this or some combination.

"Hijack" Example:

1. Escort one or more Kuva [siphons] to a giant Kuva [fountain]

2. Defend [siphons] while killing enemies (picking up their kuva) to fill them up (for a greater reward, but more risk), could mix in scaling Index mechanics for more risk/reward without limiting to game type, (It's kind of cute thinking about a little siphon following us and would entice at least moving around the map)

Possibilities:

-Possible to add objectives mid mission: "Hey take the siphons and do this spy, sabotage or w.e for a chance to earn bonus Kuva". 

 

Note(s):

Would likely be better to have the end reward be collective (sum of everyone's siphon) as to not punish players when someone goes Rambo in casuals. 

Also, each player defending a siphon and collecting Kuva from enemies doesn't have to be tied to a single mission type. It could be apart of the Fortress (in general) or even added as a Gear Item ("Ohey we got X minutes to collect Kuva based on enemy level gaise").

 

I don't know what to do with myself, so many rivens to roll but so little time and patience.

It's likely that you're putting this out there to test the water, but some sort of indication that you're at least processing or heard our feedback goes a long way.

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TL;DR Gradually increasing reward amount. Starting at 125 kuva, increasing by 15 kuva each, capping reward amount after 24th harvest, which will then be 470 kuva each harvest.

So I have been discussing with some mates and did a 50 minutes run of kuva endless myself. Using the data I have collected and some analysis, the following proposal of gradually increasing kuva reward should work for both community and developers.

Keep in mind that these numbers do not represent the community in any way. Treat them as placeholders and references.

First of all, the following aspects have been considered when brainstorming.

  • Assuming Sortie takes approximately 30 minutes, a kuva endless mission with equivalent time should reward approximately 6000 kuva as in Sortie reward or slightly more due to kuva endless is a dedicated kuva acquisition session.
  • Normal endless missions take 4 rotation cycles for the majority to leave. In survival aspect, it would be 20 minutes.
  • Gradually increasing kuva amount should be capped after 40 minutes mark. Considering possible exploitation can happen and skyrocketing kuva reward may cause economy imbalance.

Based on the data I have collected when running a kuva endless mission with a non-meta 3 men squad, the following assumptions and approximations have been made.

  • 11-13 harvests in 20 minutes.
  • 31-33 harvests in 50 minutes.

Using the numbers above, we can approximate how much kuva can be collected in an average squad 20 minutes run in the current system, which is 2200-2600 kuva.

Using the data I have collected, I assume 24 harvests can be done at 40 minutes mark.

In this case, the total amount of kuva a Tenno can get after 40 minutes in the current system would be approximately 4800. In my opinion, this is not really rewarding considering capsule health is a fixed 4000 and enemies are exponentially harder.

Lets assume that the ideal amount of kuva a Tenno can retrieve at 40 minutes mark to be 7000. 

Then we can finally get into the main proposal.

To avoid impacting the kuva economy too much, the proposed kuva amount should be similar to the current system reward in terms of 1 complete rotation cycle, as that's when the majority will likely leave. 11 will be the approximate number for average squad harvest completion in 20 minutes.

Let 'S' be the initial amount of kuva that the first capsule yields, and 'i' be the increment amount of kuva per capsule.

(11 / 2) [2S + i(11 - 1)] = 2200 ...*

*Sum of arithmetic sequence

This indicates the proposed reward will be the same as the current reward system after a complete rotation cycle.

After the first 20 minutes, the kuva reward will continue increasing until 40 minutes mark, which will likely happen around 24th harvest. Using the ideal amount I have suggested, we can have the following equation.

(24 / 2) [2S + i(24 - 1)] = 7000

Because I hate decimals, let just replace 7000 with 7140. Slightly more than Sortie reward of 6000 but also more time taken. Fair enough I guess?

Now we can substitute the variables with S = 125 and i = 15.

Then we can have the proposal of initial kuva reward capsule to be 125 kuva, with 15 kuva increment each successful harvest.

However if we continue this increment after 40 minutes, players will get 12,730 kuva after an hour assuming 38 harvests have been done. That seems to be too much but given how players are dedicated enough to endure for that long, I suggest that the kuva amount should be capped after the 24th harvest, which yields 470 kuva. Considering that a capsule spawns approximately a minute after each and transitioning takes some time as well, the total time to complete a harvest is slightly faster than a normal siphon completion. A reward slightly less than a normal siphon mission should be enough.

In conclusion, after thorough considerations and calculations, it seems fair for both DE and the community that the reward can be gradually increased with the initial harvest to be 125 kuva, then increasing the reward by 15 kuva each harvest and capping at 470 kuva.

Please do point out flaws and suggestions. All these thoughts have only been made in around 2 hours and a half.

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@HKFrosty Interesting read, but I think your reasonning is flawed for two reasons (no offense intended, your pals and yourself obviously put some effort and thinking into this post): 
1°) In practice, the 6000 kuva is rare. I personally got more rare rewards than this one, and my mates got basically the same vibe. No one do sorties for kuva farm. So applying the reasonning that equiavalent kuva endless doesn't really hold up. Most people do sorties for rivens or endo and a bit of money. If there is an endless eximus fortress, focus also. Kuva is not really part of that equation.
Kuva in sortie is like "oh hey, that's one roll" because, well, it's not a n*3500. Which leads us to the second problem.

2°) You think in terms of kuva amounts, but really we should think in how much rolls this allows us to do. Kuva in themselves mean nothing, it's in the context in which we're burning them like crazy that matters.


@rmac306  Easy: the moment DE gives us a better thing to farm kuva than Siphons and floods, those game modes will be DESERTED. Which would be a shame because they are pretty cool in small bursts. 
That's why I suggested earlier that kuva endless shouls be an alert-like thing. You wanna do small amount of kuva? Do a siphon. Wanna make more? You do a siphon, and it unlocks an endless kuva on the fortress. No taxi possible, you have to do it in the following hour, and once you get out, you have to do another siphon to do another endless kuva. Extra credit: doing floods would do pretty much the same, but with double rewards and mission starts at level 100. With a system like this, every body wins: Siphons and floods stay relevant, we get a chunk of hard content, and devs are not stucked between siphons and floods for kuva amounts the extractors delivers. 

Because as I've said earlier a few times, even with a resource booster, this is SO SLOW most of us won't really bother. 
As a matter of comparison, wisp and gem farm is also very slow, but I won't gamble them away, I will craft things, I know how many I need, and eeven if it's very long, the only randomness is how much I find them while scouting in the Plains.
That's the thing here. Kuva extractor are basically gambling chips, and in kuva endless, you need (WITH resource booster) 9 chips to do A SINGLE BET on a 10+rolls riven. Without a resource booster mind you, you need an absurd 18 chips to do a single bet, and you need TENS OF BETS on average to get something you'll like. It's that simple.

Edited by Morkislair
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Sortie is not the main consideration but I still mentioned it as it is still certain people's main income of kuva. Also considering Sortie is potentially harder than kuva endless, if I actually put that into account, I would definitely reduce the amount of kuva from kuva endless. However as I mentioned that kuva endless is a dedicated kuva farming place, so yeah, more kuva in there. Just to compare with Sortie, not really putting it into account.

The next point is kinda sensitive that I wish to avoid as well. But if DE feels like adjusting the amount of kuva disregarding the economy, increasing the kuva reward in the 2nd equation will do.

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1 hour ago, Morkislair said:

@HKFrosty Interesting read, but I think your reasonning is flawed for two reasons (no offense intended, your pals and yourself obviously put some effort and thinking into this post): 
1°) In practice, the 6000 kuva is rare. I personally got more rare rewards than this one, and my mates got basically the same vibe. No one do sorties for kuva farm. So applying the reasonning that equiavalent kuva endless doesn't really hold up. Most people do sorties for rivens or endo and a bit of money. If there is an endless eximus fortress, focus also. Kuva is not really part of that equation.
Kuva in sortie is like "oh hey, that's one roll" because, well, it's not a n*3500. Which leads us to the second problem.

2°) You think in terms of kuva amounts, but really we should think in how much rolls this allows us to do. Kuva in themselves mean nothing, it's in the context in which we're burning them like crazy that matters.


@rmac306  Easy: the moment DE gives us a better thing to farm kuva than Siphons and floods, those game modes will be DESERTED. Which would be a shame because they are pretty cool in small bursts. 
That's why I suggested earlier that kuva endless shouls be an alert-like thing. You wanna do small amount of kuva? Do a siphon. Wanna make more? You do a siphon, and it unlocks an endless kuva on the fortress. No taxi possible, you have to do it in the following hour, and once you get out, you have to do another siphon to do another endless kuva. Extra credit: doing floods would do pretty much the same, but with double rewards and mission starts at level 100. With a system like this, every body wins: Siphons and floods stay relevant, we get a chunk of hard content, and devs are not stucked between siphons and floods for kuva amounts the extractors delivers. 

Because as I've said earlier a few times, even with a resource booster, this is SO SLOW most of us won't really bother. 
As a matter of comparison, wisp and gem farm is also very slow, but I won't gamble them away, I will craft things, I know how many I need, and eeven if it's very long, the only randomness is how much I find them while scouting in the Plains.
That's the thing here. Kuva extractor are basically gambling chips, and in kuva endless, you need (WITH resource booster) 9 chips to do A SINGLE BET on a 10+rolls riven. Without a resource booster mind you, you need an absurd 18 chips to do a single bet, and you need TENS OF BETS on average to get something you'll like. It's that simple.

But here is the thing.
I'm not saying we should improve the Kuva endless and not improve the siphon/flood missions.
My only beef is that, the whole Kuva process is unrewarding as a whole. It's the kind of system that offers "almost" no progression.
I said almost, because since it's pure rng when you re-roll the riven mod, maybe you can get a god roll, maybe you can get a slightly better version, but most of the time you get sh...

For a system to be like that, hit or miss, it's bad that you have to farm like 20 mins or more (no boosters) to be able to run a single roll.
Even with 10 rolls (the way i like to gamble, at least 10 every time, otherwise the frustration is just unbearable), you still get frustrated.
We are talking about 35k Kuva, that takes a while to get, to be gone in less than 1 minute, with no actual progress.
Game mechanics should not frustrate you like that, but perhaps i'm playing the wrong game.
I just feel like there is a space to be more generous and at the same time keep the plat and $$ flowing as well.
 

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Wish people would read everything thoroughly and comprehend what is said.....

The kuva will NEVER scale because the point of it is to be the middle ground between siphons and floods, they decreased life support scaling times, which makes this work!

They want floods to give the higest rewards and not this. With this you:

1. Run the flood

2. Run the endless kuva

3. Repeat

You get a life support every 90 seconds. In 4 minutes and 30 seconds you cam get 600. Roughly a siphon amount. You dont have to deal with alternative mission objectives for the most part or loading screens. 

This is what DE wants, not a replacement for floods. How is it that hard to understand.

People are saying, "Looks like I'll be sticking to floods then."

Good

That's the point here. 

You're supposed to.

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@(PS4)sarahsaurusx2014 Thing is, DE wants to do something and they test the waters then. If we, as an engaged community, can tell them we don't want this and why, they will evolve their formula. See how Focus costs were adjusted after Focus 2.0, see adjustments on Gara crafting costs, rep rewards from bounties, rewards from bounties, and that is just recent history. 
If we, as a community, feel that Floods themselves are too slow, and voice our concerns loud enough, they will listen, because this game lives or die on their ability to listen. 

Some people say "I'll stick with floods then", but some other (I'm among these) say "well if it is STILL that unrewarding, I will STILL not care." If so little people are really caring about rivens for their intended purpose (i.e making meh weapons good), then it is a problem. For us, AND for the Devs. Warframe is not supposed to bee Black Desert Online in Space as far as farming is concerned, and at the moment Kuva farming as it is right now is nothing but a tedious and ludicrously slow process of . feeding the slot machine the rivens are in practice.
I want to care about these and make my collection of rivens somewhat decent. But there's a reason I got like 70+ rivens and maybe 4-5 in an actual build. 


Some Devs should actually farm kuva to roll a riven and see how tedious it is, maybe they'd get the picture better. . 

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22 minutes ago, Morkislair said:

@(PS4)sarahsaurusx2014 Thing is, DE wants to do something and they test the waters then. If we, as an engaged community, can tell them we don't want this and why, they will evolve their formula. See how Focus costs were adjusted after Focus 2.0, see adjustments on Gara crafting costs, rep rewards from bounties, rewards from bounties, and that is just recent history. 
If we, as a community, feel that Floods themselves are too slow, and voice our concerns loud enough, they will listen, because this game lives or die on their ability to listen. 

Some people say "I'll stick with floods then", but some other (I'm among these) say "well if it is STILL that unrewarding, I will STILL not care." If so little people are really caring about rivens for their intended purpose (i.e making meh weapons good), then it is a problem. For us, AND for the Devs. Warframe is not supposed to bee Black Desert Online in Space as far as farming is concerned, and at the moment Kuva farming as it is right now is nothing but a tedious and ludicrously slow process of . feeding the slot machine the rivens are in practice.
I want to care about these and make my collection of rivens somewhat decent. But there's a reason I got like 70+ rivens and maybe 4-5 in an actual build. 


Some Devs should actually farm kuva to roll a riven and see how tedious it is, maybe they'd get the picture better. . 

Scaling kuva sounds great, but not as a survival...

Now adding a kuva catalyst to be a drop from kuva guardians that when taken to the defense mission on the fortress that triggers the defense target to siphon kuva would be neat.. 

I hate survivals because real life happens and you have to rely on the others to want to leave.. Atleast in a defense mission you get a choice.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)sarahsaurusx2014 said:

Wish people would read everything thoroughly and comprehend what is said.....

The kuva will NEVER scale because the point of it is to be the middle ground between siphons and floods, they decreased life support scaling times, which makes this work!

They want floods to give the higest rewards and not this. With this you:

1. Run the flood

2. Run the endless kuva

3. Repeat

You get a life support every 90 seconds. In 4 minutes and 30 seconds you cam get 600. Roughly a siphon amount. You dont have to deal with alternative mission objectives for the most part or loading screens. 

This is what DE wants, not a replacement for floods. How is it that hard to understand.

People are saying, "Looks like I'll be sticking to floods then."

Good

That's the point here. 

You're supposed to.

But it's worse than even siophons. It literally may as well not exist.

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