Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

[NinjaKitsune56]

22 hours ago, (PS4)sarahsaurusx2014 said:

Don't you only forfeit rotation awards while still collecting drops?

No. Unless one of the squad is using the Chesa Kubrow for loot collection, you have to collect all loot drops yourself. This is because each loot drop exists as a different instance for each player. The Chesa, unlike sentinels, picks up all existing instances simultaneously, allowing their owner to grab, and collect, everyone's loot in one pass. It's why the playerbase had been pushing for the Universal Vacuum for sentinels.

[Howler_Actual]

I'd like to see it scale. The mode itself is lots of fun but folks bounce consistently around the 20 minute mark, and why not? That's when it makes sense to go. The siphons don't hold up well past that point. A coordinated group could protect them well enough, but why not just leave and go back in if you're trying to be efficient? I appreciate the new mode regardless. It's clever and fun.

[(PSN)Seratronix]

5 hours ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

No. Unless one of the squad is using the Chesa Kubrow for loot collection, you have to collect all loot drops yourself. This is because each loot drop exists as a different instance for each player. The Chesa, unlike sentinels, picks up all existing instances simultaneously, allowing their owner to grab, and collect, everyone's loot in one pass. It's why the playerbase had been pushing for the Universal Vacuum for sentinels.

If your next to everyone your vacuum will still collect drops and kuva us rewarded map wide. What i should of said is:

"If they are AFK they will only loose out on rotational rewards, while still obtaining kuva."

[IcyJalapeno]

One of the many problems with Kuva right now is that the Siphons and Floods have scales on which it can payout. Unless they have changed to be fixed and I haven't noticed. Which makes giving a set number to "middle ground, in-between" mission's objective already in a awkward place. Comparing it to: If A: 550 and B: 1100 so C: 825 

Baseline: So Siphon pay 550-700 per mission and Floods are 1100-1400 roughly for 3-5 mins of work / per "quick/easy" mission. I'll let everyone define their definitions of quick and easy mission are. Nevertheless, the first set of life support (5 mins / 1 rotation worth) should roughly be greater than the Maximum payout of a Siphon, since its the "middle ground", so lets say 750-850 per 5 mins. That should be suffice payout price to cover the 1st Cycle (AABC). But the demand for scaling is wanted. So we finish up crossing the "middle ground" threshold with scaling bump in rewards during the 2nd cycle. The outcry of players wanting better reward for staying long than the normal, Flood payouts for playing within the 3rd Cycle. 

Within 1st Cycle: 750 - 850 /  1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

Within 2nd Cycle: 950 - 1050 /  1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

Within 3rd Cycle: 1100 - 1400 / 1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

Within 4th Cycle: 1400++ / 1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

As for HP for the Life Support: Risk vs Reward. It shouldn't scale 1:1 with the enemies spawning in to attack it. However it also shouldn't be the baseline HP it starts with at minute 0.

 

That's my 2 cents.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Scaling isnt needed but i say like 5 kuva increase every 10 cycles would be the most needed. So like in 9 minutes it would increase to 205... 18 mins 210.... 27 mins.... 215 by then youve acrued 3,750 kuva as opposed to 3,600 currently.

[VenomousValentine]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Scaling isnt needed but i say like 5 kuva increase every 10 cycles would be the most needed. So like in 9 minutes it would increase to 205... 18 mins 210.... 27 mins.... 215 by then youve acrued 3,750 kuva as opposed to 3,600 currently.

Even that is terrible. thats still almost 30 minutes for ONE reroll.

[lullul1635]

On 2018. 3. 23. at 1:25 AM, DrBorris said:

Please consider having the Kuva amount scale with time in mission or the amount of kuva siphons completed. As it stands there is no reason to run it as an "endless" mission or a reason to test our gear. It will just be more practical to stay for 10 min and leave to restart which goes against the big reason as to why so many of us want endless Kuva.

 

Edit: There already exists quick missions for farming Kuva, with this addition Kuva Survival will not be much different. I understand that it is just mimicking the existing drops of Survival, Excavation and Defense, but those missions already have this issue. Having scaling rewards with endless fissure missions was a awesome addition and seeing something similar with Kuva Survival would be great.

Agreed.

Scale 10% up every 5min will be good.

[IcyJalapeno]

12 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Scaling isnt needed but i say like 5 kuva increase every 10 cycles would be the most needed. So like in 9 minutes it would increase to 205... 18 mins 210.... 27 mins.... 215 by then youve acrued 3,750 kuva as opposed to 3,600 currently.

10 cycles... thats 40 rotations, which is 200 mins. If you meant 10 mins which is 2 rotations (1/2 cycle: AA) for a pay increase would be too early since the first 20 mins (1st Cycle: AABC) are easy. Well it should be by the time one has access to the fortress. Thus anything payout increases prior 20 mins doesn't really need to be a thing. The "middle ground" they want has to be a legitimate middle ground starting point for the 1st Cycle (20mins). Hell some people would debate me on the 2nd Cycle (40mins) being easy. Personally, I do 30 mins and reset.

[Gandergear]

Needs scaling still, 20m should give 3500, 40m should give +7000, 60 give +10500 For a total of 21000 for 1 hr

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

50 minutes ago, Gandergear said:

Needs scaling still, 20m should give 3500, 40m should give +7000, 60 give +10500 For a total of 21000 for 1 hr

I have to pee after 40 mins. Old guy bladder xD

[VenomousValentine]

1 hour ago, Gandergear said:

Needs scaling still, 20m should give 3500, 40m should give +7000, 60 give +10500 For a total of 21000 for 1 hr

Now this I can get behind.

[RMSGM]

200 kuva is too low, thats cool for anyone with boosters other than that.. no just no.

 

[Helmed]

During the livestream where they were testing the kuva missions and the reward was 50 kuva, they kept saying THIS IS JUST A PLACEHOLDER over and over again

They could have put it to 200 kuva and gotten the same reaction from chat

[FIushaMad]

Maybe a Random drop from 150-300 per harvester from the begining. And  after 20mins 200-300, after 40mins 250-300,after 1hr 300?

[UncaIroh]

Scaling a little bit beyond 20 mins sounds nice but i'm ok with 200 forever for the simple reason that almost everyone will usually play in 20 minute chunks instead of trying for a long run. This sets up a means to take breaks instead of getting stuck in a run you don't really want to extend. 

Additionally, it also takes out the chance for salt when you make a long run then you or the host dcs and you lose everything.

I also like that it's in a place between normal and flood. It gives more kuva than normal kuva missions except very fast missions (sub 5 mins).

[Morkislair]

Il y a 12 heures, Gandergear a dit :

Needs scaling still, 20m should give 3500, 40m should give +7000, 60 give +10500 For a total of 21000 for 1 hr

Do you really think 40 min is okay for pulling a slot machine twice?

 

Also, @RMSGM: even with boosters, it find the returns of this mission more akin to a chore. If it stays the way it is, I know I still won't bother because I gotta read some work about Elinor Ostrom this game made me curious about.

[polarity]

My only complaint is that doing this repeatedly is soon going to become even more boring than siphons, so long as it's only in a single tileset.  Might be an idea to come up with a reason to have it in void and derelict survivals too (and it's about time derelict lost its need for keys).

[(PSN)willitical]

ok i have a thought, why not add kuva to the reward table only for that mission, so which could be at reward c it could be 200 kuva, but goes up after every 20 minute cycle, now i dont think this would disrupt the flow of kuva that much since its only a chance at getting extra kuva, if not then i definitely think having the kuva scale is a really important thing, lets think of how the fissures work, the longer you stay the better the perks get, otherwise its not really endless, why fight high level enemies, when you can just leave at 20 minutes and restart and get the same exact reward. so yea it really needs some incentive to stay, it doesn't need to be alot, say 25 extra kuva per tower, that's not all that much, but would add up over time, but you have to remember that we would be fighting really high level enemies so we would be earning that extra kuva, but other than that it looks like a lot of fun and a great way to get kuva

[kingdomeTHEMADcthulhu]

1 theres not enough kuva per node even with x2. 2well a new helm for nezha is cool  the only ability that is ligit is1  nezha is trash versions of rhino it sucks but stats dont lie especially with iron skin vs warding halo   recastable and strong  vs weak and not recastable  leading to 1 shots at sortie lvl  a rework or alest a buff is a must  i dont want to be stuck playing rhino over stats but if not changed im not going to have a choice piz for the love of metal fix it i dont want to be stuck as a rhino elitist #metavsfun #curemetacancer

[fr4gb4ll]

On 31.3.2018 at 3:15 AM, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

200 kuva? Please try a better reward.

the 200 kuva is ok, at least as a start. what the mission really would need is an increase per harvester the team done and/or the time spend in the endless survival - something that reward te players do push themself for a more rewards other than the fun of doing it.

[fr4gb4ll]

4 hours ago, polarity said:

My only complaint is that doing this repeatedly is soon going to become even more boring than siphons

well, i for one find this system more interessting than the silly rush to the siphon in the "default" kuva runs. AND it is a good way to keep the damn team in one place for once ^^)

4 hours ago, polarity said:

Might be an idea to come up with a reason to have it in void and derelict survivals too (and it's about time derelict lost its need for keys).

i strongly agree to that! never understood why DE is keeping the silly derelict keys alive and not making the derelict "public" as they did the void.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

On 3/22/2018 at 7:45 PM, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

Kuva

200 per tower is a good starting point. Some quick math shows that if there is a harvester active 50% of the time, the mission will net 6000 Kuva/hour, which is more than the 4200 ((600 x 5) + 1200) from all 5 Siphons + 1 Flood of a given hour. There's more to it than that though.

The Siphons/Flood can be cleared in less than an hour (exact time varies, depending on the missions/planets), and this can be done leading up to the hourly reset (e.g. 30 mins before, then 30 mins after), completing 10 Siphons and 2 Floods for a base value of 8200 Kuva. (Siphons can also be repeated if selected by another player that hasn't yet done the given Siphon, though I'm not sure if this is intended.)

For the Kuva Fortress Survival, the maximum Kuva rate will heavily depend on the spawn rate of the Life Support towers, and the spawn rate of the Catalyst carriers.

Either way, the endless Kuva option will have the advantage of not having to load in and out of missions repeatedly, and will not require searching for the Siphon (which is particularly problematic on Ceres).

Gonna need to test it in-game to properly judge it.

I'll be looking forward to trying it out!

 

Some concerns:

• Will the spawn rate of Life Support Towers still slow down as the mission progresses? (Getting less and less Kuva Harvesters as the run progresses would go against the endless objective)
• Will life support capsule drops be increased for Solo runs? (Currently, spawn rates are low for Solo players, often requiring the use of Life Support Towers to compensate for the lower mini-capsule drop rate)
• Will the Kuva drop be a marked item, like the Animo Nav Beacons? (So that the drop can't be easily missed, especially if the squad splits up to defend multiple towers (if multiple towers can be converted at the same time))

 

The RNG-heavy Grind

Finally, the current Kuva grind is incredibly slow, given the cycle cost of 3500 (on roll 10 onwards, which will happen for the vast majority of Rivens), and the sheer amount of RNG involved in getting a good enough stat set to 'fix' a given weapon. (For weapons that have a reasonable disposition for that weapon's power level).

Increased Kuva rates/stat locking will no doubt remain a desire of the community, and a needed change for the Riven system to properly serve as a "lower-power weapon booster", and have an actual progression, instead of being purely based on luck.

The 200 Kuva per 90s (tower spawn rate) works out as a base (unboosted) maximum of 8000 Kuva per hour, assuming that all of the towers are used for Kuva, and that no towers are destroyed. Thus, in comparison to Siphons, endless Kuva is in a decent spot, even if just for being more consistent than Siphons.

For the pre-release concerns:

• Tower spawn rate was changed to a flat rate of 90s, no scaling, so this issue was addressed!
• Spawn rates and LS capsule drop rates when solo require a Nekros/Pilfering Swarm Hydroid (or maybe Ore Gaze Atlas) to maintain enough Life Support to be able to convert all of the towers.
• The Kuva drop was changed back to a global drop (like Siphons and Excavators), so this concern is not relevant.

 

Either way, the RNG-heavy grind remains, but endless Kuva was never going to be the solution for it. How to address Rivens and Kuva as a whole is a discussion for another topic.

[ZirkonX]

Please fix the kuva harvester not being activated even with putting the kuva catalyst, it stays like a life support.

[Toran]

Feedback after several hours of Kuva Survival.
Current Kuva Survival's reward range is not between normal Kuva Siphon and Kuva Flood missions, it's below both (unless you're a slow poacher). The average run scratches at 250-300 Kuva/min (with resource boosters and Smeeta charm)
Former missions can be divided in fast and normal speed missions.

Fast:
- Capture
- Assassination (depending on target)
- Rescue
- Sabotage
Fast missions can be done under 4 minutes, sometimes even under 3 minutes (my current solo capture flood record: 2m51s), resulting in 400-800+ Kuva/min (with Booster, no Smeeta bonus) at best.

Normal:
- Exterminate
- Spy
- Extraction
- Mobile Defense
- Survival
- Assassination (depending on target)

Most normal missions' times range from 4-5 min, resulting in 240-500 Kuva/min (with Booster, no Smeeta bonus). Depending on map and target, some normal missions can go beyond the 10 mins mark depending on target and map layout (Ceres...). The experienced Kuva-Hunter knows the "bad" missions by time and just ignores them.

Comparison:
Unless you want to hunt Kuva for the full hour, Kuva Survival doesn't cut it. Selected former mission types reward more Kuva and take less effort. If you want to max out your Kuva-gains with spare-time for other Warframe activities (like Eidolon captures), you can do so with clever mission management.

See also:

If you lack the Warframes/Equipment to quickly do the classic kuva missions, or if you like to farm more kuva on top, Survial missions are a valid (but less rewarding) addition.

Kuva Survival Advantages:
- no high level enemies from start (in contrast to Flood missions)
- normal survival rewards on top (relics etc.)
- more general loot (thanks to its semi-defense character)

Kuva Survival Disadvantages:
- higher strain on the players (constant fight)
- to max out Kuva rewards, Nekros/Hydroid are needed (for additional O₂ gain)
- life supports bug at times (Kuva harvest is not activated)
- generally lower Kuva gain
- no benefit from staying longer and fighting harder enemies
 

Conclussion:
As someone who hunts Kuva as efficiently as possible, Kuva Survival feels rather unrewarding. To get the max out of it, you need to bring a Nekros or Hydroid along and you have to fight a constant barrage of enemies for little results. Long-time runs don't increase rewards and are not recommended. For the future, I hope general Kuva Survival rewards are doubled at least, with additional bonus for staying longer.

[fluffysnowcap]

Here is a list of potential changes that could be made to kuva survival or endless missions and based upon my opinion make the game better in some ways.

3 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

The only scaling that has ever been implemented was back in update 19 and was a olive branch to the players that use to do a 4 hour run of a single T(1,2,3,4) Void Key.

The main arguments for scaling is for the secondary and tertiary rewards, the things we need a tone of like Endo, Polymer Bundle and Plastids, or for the kuva itself to scale, hence the near consensus for one of two models.

1. Void fissure style scaling added to all endless missions. Example below.

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Reward Intervals

The reward intervals per mission type are as followed:

• Defense: 5 waves
• Interception: 1 round
• Survival: 5 minutes
• Excavation: 200 Cryotic

Bonuses per Interval

• Every reward interval, you get a predetermined booster. These boosters stack the longer you stay and are capped at double.

1. The first interval: 1.25x Affinity.
2. The second interval: 1.25x Credits Booster. (affects credit cashes)
3. The third interval: 1.25x Resources Booster. (effects missions resources IE, Kuva and Cryotic as well as rewards)
4. The fourth interval: 1.25x Resource Drop Rate.
5. The fifth interval: This one will be the largest change replacing the random Exceptional Relic With a planets appropriate rare resource (Affected by Resources Boosters)
6. The sixth interval: 1.5x Affinity (replaces first).
7. The seventh interval: 1.5x Credits (replaces second).
8. The eighth interval: 1.5x Resources (replaces third).
9. The ninth interval: 1.5x Resource Drop Rate (replaces fourth).
10. The tenth interval: a planets appropriate rare resource (Same amount as the first time to prevent runaway scaling, Affected by Resources Boosters)

• Boosters continue to increase every set of intervals and are capped at double (2x). After the nineteenthinterval, all boosters will have reached their cap.

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200 Kuva per Tower

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Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2200 Kuva 146.6 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 4500 Kuva 180 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 6700 Kuva 167.5 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 5700 Kuva 228 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 12400 Kuva 190.7 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 6300 Kuva 252 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 18700 Kuva 207.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 7600 Kuva 304 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 26300 Kuva 228.6 Kuva per minutes

250 Kuva per Tower

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Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2750 Kuva 183.3 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 5500 Kuva 220 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 8250 Kuva 206.2 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 6975 Kuva 279 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 15225 Kuva 234.2 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 7700 Kuva 308 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 22925 Kuva 254.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 9300 Kuva 372 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 32225 Kuva 280.2 Kuva per minutes

 

300 will surpass back to back Floods so i didn't crunch the numbers.

2. Increasing by a fixed amount per Life support tower, balanced so for the first 20 minutes is is between Kuva siphons and floods; however past 40 minutes it should have the greatest Kuva to time investment you can achieve them game. All scaling capping at 1 hour.

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Link to the source.

Current Kuva per minute.

Flood's 243.2, Siphon's 130.3 Kuva Suvival 128

Ideally Kuva Survival should give approximately 190 Kuva per minute for the first 20 minutes, and approximately 250 Kuva per minute for the first 40 minutes.

There are 13.3 Life support towers in 20 minutes That's one every 90 seconds, not including the one that spawns at the very beginning.

so we need scaling that works per tower to create an out come of 190 ish kuva per minute.

OH god i need to work out 14(X+(YxN))÷20=190   wish i remembered how to do Compound interest\integers

Examples. X is the Life support towers and Y is the scaling per tower

20 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

14(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         185.3               |             218.75           |             231               |           253.75              | Kuva per minutes

         3710              |           4375             |            4620            |           5075              | Total Kuva

 

40 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

28(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         234.5               |            281.75            |          320                  |            376.25             | Kuva per minutes

         9380             |            11270           |           12800           |           15050             | Total Kuva

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My personal opinion of the two possibilities is that Void fissure style scaling to all endless will be more fitting to the game as a whole. Compared to a fixed percentage or integer increase that will suffer from the possibility of runaway scaling, or initial rewards that are completely underwhelming.

 

I would be at a miss if i didn't include a flat buff to the kuva drops argument.

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examples in this tab are done under hypothetically perfect conditions

20 minute Runs Kuva per minute (14 life support towers)      |    optimal 7 minute Runs Kuva per minutes (5 life support towers)

                     Flat 200  =  2800   Kuva 140 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 200  =  1000   Kuva 142.8 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 225  =  3150   Kuva 157.5 Kuva per minute      |            Flat 225  =  1125   Kuva 160.7 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 250  =  3500   Kuva 175 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 250  =  1250   Kuva 178.5 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 275  =  3850   Kuva 192.5 Kuva per minute      |            Flat 275  =  1375   Kuva 196.4 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 300  =  4200   Kuva 210 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 300  =  1500   Kuva 214.2 Kuva per minute

additional notes "A flat increase would be the easiest one to balance but wouldn't encourage longer survival at all, and since i believe endless missions need a second pass and going long should be disproportionately rewarded to a certain extent, as come one the mission type is about going the extra mile"