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Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!


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Given that this is obviously not a good enough reward for all the trouble y wasn't it introduced as just a kuva defence probably using the same principle of this one bring a kuva canister to a defence pod on the kuva fortress and defending it. Would have been received a lot better I think because saying it was "endless kuva" now seems like really bad false advertising, really think it would have better introduced in a defence since the route it's taken kinda doesn't make much sense

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With more hands-on experience, Kuva Survival is definitely a breath of fresh air next to fatigue-inducing Siphons (needing to run missions as fast as possible wears me out) and sheer tedium of Floods.

I was concerned by rewards scaling DOWN as enemies scaled up, but with Life Support intervals standardized to 90 seconds that's less of a problem.

My biggest complaint at this point is that the Fortress tileset and abundance of Eximi (especially Arson) really highlight how blinding Warframe can be. It's hard to tell where enemies are just due to the number of bright effects on-screen at any given time!

You guys have been working to tone down the Eidolon fustercluck to reasonable levels - I would suggest examining standard missions when you have the time for it.

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22 hours ago, (PS4)sarahsaurusx2014 said:

Don't you only forfeit rotation awards while still collecting drops?

No. Unless one of the squad is using the Chesa Kubrow for loot collection, you have to collect all loot drops yourself. This is because each loot drop exists as a different instance for each player. The Chesa, unlike sentinels, picks up all existing instances simultaneously, allowing their owner to grab, and collect, everyone's loot in one pass. It's why the playerbase had been pushing for the Universal Vacuum for sentinels.

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I'd like to see it scale. The mode itself is lots of fun but folks bounce consistently around the 20 minute mark, and why not? That's when it makes sense to go. The siphons don't hold up well past that point. A coordinated group could protect them well enough, but why not just leave and go back in if you're trying to be efficient? I appreciate the new mode regardless. It's clever and fun.

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5 hours ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

No. Unless one of the squad is using the Chesa Kubrow for loot collection, you have to collect all loot drops yourself. This is because each loot drop exists as a different instance for each player. The Chesa, unlike sentinels, picks up all existing instances simultaneously, allowing their owner to grab, and collect, everyone's loot in one pass. It's why the playerbase had been pushing for the Universal Vacuum for sentinels.

If your next to everyone your vacuum will still collect drops and kuva us rewarded map wide. What i should of said is:

"If they are AFK they will only loose out on rotational rewards, while still obtaining kuva."

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One of the many problems with Kuva right now is that the Siphons and Floods have scales on which it can payout. Unless they have changed to be fixed and I haven't noticed. Which makes giving a set number to "middle ground, in-between" mission's objective already in a awkward place. Comparing it to: If A: 550 and B: 1100 so C: 825 

Baseline: So Siphon pay 550-700 per mission and Floods are 1100-1400 roughly for 3-5 mins of work / per "quick/easy" mission. I'll let everyone define their definitions of quick and easy mission are. Nevertheless, the first set of life support (5 mins / 1 rotation worth) should roughly be greater than the Maximum payout of a Siphon, since its the "middle ground", so lets say 750-850 per 5 mins. That should be suffice payout price to cover the 1st Cycle (AABC). But the demand for scaling is wanted. So we finish up crossing the "middle ground" threshold with scaling bump in rewards during the 2nd cycle. The outcry of players wanting better reward for staying long than the normal, Flood payouts for playing within the 3rd Cycle. 

Within 1st Cycle: 750 - 850 /  1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

Within 2nd Cycle: 950 - 1050 /  1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

Within 3rd Cycle: 1100 - 1400 / 1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

Within 4th Cycle: 1400++ / 1 rotation worth of Air Supplies Converted

As for HP for the Life Support: Risk vs Reward. It shouldn't scale 1:1 with the enemies spawning in to attack it. However it also shouldn't be the baseline HP it starts with at minute 0.

 

That's my 2 cents.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Scaling isnt needed but i say like 5 kuva increase every 10 cycles would be the most needed. So like in 9 minutes it would increase to 205... 18 mins 210.... 27 mins.... 215 by then youve acrued 3,750 kuva as opposed to 3,600 currently.

Even that is terrible. thats still almost 30 minutes for ONE reroll.

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On 2018. 3. 23. at 1:25 AM, DrBorris said:

Please consider having the Kuva amount scale with time in mission or the amount of kuva siphons completed. As it stands there is no reason to run it as an "endless" mission or a reason to test our gear. It will just be more practical to stay for 10 min and leave to restart which goes against the big reason as to why so many of us want endless Kuva.

 

Edit: There already exists quick missions for farming Kuva, with this addition Kuva Survival will not be much different. I understand that it is just mimicking the existing drops of Survival, Excavation and Defense, but those missions already have this issue. Having scaling rewards with endless fissure missions was a awesome addition and seeing something similar with Kuva Survival would be great.

Agreed.

Scale 10% up every 5min will be good.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Scaling isnt needed but i say like 5 kuva increase every 10 cycles would be the most needed. So like in 9 minutes it would increase to 205... 18 mins 210.... 27 mins.... 215 by then youve acrued 3,750 kuva as opposed to 3,600 currently.

10 cycles... thats 40 rotations, which is 200 mins. If you meant 10 mins which is 2 rotations (1/2 cycle: AA) for a pay increase would be too early since the first 20 mins (1st Cycle: AABC) are easy. Well it should be by the time one has access to the fortress. Thus anything payout increases prior 20 mins doesn't really need to be a thing. The "middle ground" they want has to be a legitimate middle ground starting point for the 1st Cycle (20mins). Hell some people would debate me on the 2nd Cycle (40mins) being easy. Personally, I do 30 mins and reset.

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During the livestream where they were testing the kuva missions and the reward was 50 kuva, they kept saying THIS IS JUST A PLACEHOLDER over and over again

They could have put it to 200 kuva and gotten the same reaction from chat

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Scaling a little bit beyond 20 mins sounds nice but i'm ok with 200 forever for the simple reason that almost everyone will usually play in 20 minute chunks instead of trying for a long run. This sets up a means to take breaks instead of getting stuck in a run you don't really want to extend. 

Additionally, it also takes out the chance for salt when you make a long run then you or the host dcs and you lose everything.

I also like that it's in a place between normal and flood. It gives more kuva than normal kuva missions except very fast missions (sub 5 mins).

Edited by UncaIroh
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Il y a 12 heures, Gandergear a dit :

Needs scaling still, 20m should give 3500, 40m should give +7000, 60 give +10500 For a total of 21000 for 1 hr

Do you really think 40 min is okay for pulling a slot machine twice?

 

Also, @RMSGM: even with boosters, it find the returns of this mission more akin to a chore. If it stays the way it is, I know I still won't bother because I gotta read some work about Elinor Ostrom this game made me curious about.

Edited by Morkislair
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My only complaint is that doing this repeatedly is soon going to become even more boring than siphons, so long as it's only in a single tileset.  Might be an idea to come up with a reason to have it in void and derelict survivals too (and it's about time derelict lost its need for keys).

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ok i have a thought, why not add kuva to the reward table only for that mission, so which could be at reward c it could be 200 kuva, but goes up after every 20 minute cycle, now i dont think this would disrupt the flow of kuva that much since its only a chance at getting extra kuva, if not then i definitely think having the kuva scale is a really important thing, lets think of how the fissures work, the longer you stay the better the perks get, otherwise its not really endless, why fight high level enemies, when you can just leave at 20 minutes and restart and get the same exact reward. so yea it really needs some incentive to stay, it doesn't need to be alot, say 25 extra kuva per tower, that's not all that much, but would add up over time, but you have to remember that we would be fighting really high level enemies so we would be earning that extra kuva, but other than that it looks like a lot of fun and a great way to get kuva

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1 theres not enough kuva per node even with x2. 2well a new helm for nezha is cool  the only ability that is ligit is1  nezha is trash versions of rhino it sucks but stats dont lie especially with iron skin vs warding halo   recastable and strong  vs weak and not recastable  leading to 1 shots at sortie lvl  a rework or alest a buff is a must  i dont want to be stuck playing rhino over stats but if not changed im not going to have a choice piz for the love of metal fix it i dont want to be stuck as a rhino elitist #metavsfun #curemetacancer

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On 31.3.2018 at 3:15 AM, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

200 kuva? Please try a better reward.

the 200 kuva is ok, at least as a start. what the mission really would need is an increase per harvester the team done and/or the time spend in the endless survival - something that reward te players do push themself for a more rewards other than the fun of doing it.

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4 hours ago, polarity said:

My only complaint is that doing this repeatedly is soon going to become even more boring than siphons

well, i for one find this system more interessting than the silly rush to the siphon in the "default" kuva runs. AND it is a good way to keep the damn team in one place for once ^^)

4 hours ago, polarity said:

Might be an idea to come up with a reason to have it in void and derelict survivals too (and it's about time derelict lost its need for keys).

i strongly agree to that! never understood why DE is keeping the silly derelict keys alive and not making the derelict "public" as they did the void.

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On 3/22/2018 at 7:45 PM, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

Kuva

200 per tower is a good starting point. Some quick math shows that if there is a harvester active 50% of the time, the mission will net 6000 Kuva/hour, which is more than the 4200 ((600 x 5) + 1200) from all 5 Siphons + 1 Flood of a given hour. There's more to it than that though.

The Siphons/Flood can be cleared in less than an hour (exact time varies, depending on the missions/planets), and this can be done leading up to the hourly reset (e.g. 30 mins before, then 30 mins after), completing 10 Siphons and 2 Floods for a base value of 8200 Kuva. (Siphons can also be repeated if selected by another player that hasn't yet done the given Siphon, though I'm not sure if this is intended.)

For the Kuva Fortress Survival, the maximum Kuva rate will heavily depend on the spawn rate of the Life Support towers, and the spawn rate of the Catalyst carriers.

Either way, the endless Kuva option will have the advantage of not having to load in and out of missions repeatedly, and will not require searching for the Siphon (which is particularly problematic on Ceres).

Gonna need to test it in-game to properly judge it.

I'll be looking forward to trying it out!

 

Some concerns:

  • Will the spawn rate of Life Support Towers still slow down as the mission progresses? (Getting less and less Kuva Harvesters as the run progresses would go against the endless objective)
  • Will life support capsule drops be increased for Solo runs? (Currently, spawn rates are low for Solo players, often requiring the use of Life Support Towers to compensate for the lower mini-capsule drop rate)
  • Will the Kuva drop be a marked item, like the Animo Nav Beacons? (So that the drop can't be easily missed, especially if the squad splits up to defend multiple towers (if multiple towers can be converted at the same time))

 

The RNG-heavy Grind

Finally, the current Kuva grind is incredibly slow, given the cycle cost of 3500 (on roll 10 onwards, which will happen for the vast majority of Rivens), and the sheer amount of RNG involved in getting a good enough stat set to 'fix' a given weapon. (For weapons that have a reasonable disposition for that weapon's power level).

Increased Kuva rates/stat locking will no doubt remain a desire of the community, and a needed change for the Riven system to properly serve as a "lower-power weapon booster", and have an actual progression, instead of being purely based on luck.

The 200 Kuva per 90s (tower spawn rate) works out as a base (unboosted) maximum of 8000 Kuva per hour, assuming that all of the towers are used for Kuva, and that no towers are destroyed. Thus, in comparison to Siphons, endless Kuva is in a decent spot, even if just for being more consistent than Siphons.

For the pre-release concerns:

  • Tower spawn rate was changed to a flat rate of 90s, no scaling, so this issue was addressed!
  • Spawn rates and LS capsule drop rates when solo require a Nekros/Pilfering Swarm Hydroid (or maybe Ore Gaze Atlas) to maintain enough Life Support to be able to convert all of the towers.
  • The Kuva drop was changed back to a global drop (like Siphons and Excavators), so this concern is not relevant.

 

Either way, the RNG-heavy grind remains, but endless Kuva was never going to be the solution for it. How to address Rivens and Kuva as a whole is a discussion for another topic.

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