Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

[Kimimoto]

19 hours ago, bAnthony24 said:

so to scale the kuva rewards in the Endless Kuva Survival, would most definitely take away from the other missions...

Something that a lot of people are over looking...

Definitely not, getting 300 per siphon would be on par with floods.

If it scaled from 200-250 running floods would still be the best option, but endurance runners would be incentivised to stay rather than leave. 

Since it's time based you'd get less rewards for resetting, and more for being able to go longer.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Honestly I think 200 is a good number.  I stayed 40 minutes and got 5400 - we also didn't use a single Air pod the whole time, each and every one was used for Kuva and we only left because we had a dead weight low level who couldn't pull his own.  We did also lose one single extractor - and if that hadn't of happened we would have left with 5600 - oh yeah, I didn't mention I was using a booster so I actually walked away with 10800 Kuva.  That's solid for something that can be repeated endlessly.  

A flood would normally be faster, and normally give me around 1400 max (2800 Booster), double if my Kavat is feeling nice (5600), which she never is.  Let's also not forget the time between Floods is absolutely abysmal.  Sometimes I come back 90 minutes later and still no new flood has appeared.  Kuva Survival is always there, it isn't going anywhere - it's more reliable, the numbers are even and not variable.

Time to Kuva ratio, sure Floods may be better - but in my honest opinion for sustained Kuva Farming, Survival is in a perfect place.  Not to mention you get a decent amount of Affinity, Credits Endo and Gold Mods for your time.  

I'm happy and enjoying the changes :) It gives me a reason to run somewhere other than Hydron mindlessly.  

[AzureTerra]

Loving it. Kuva Fortress was good before and now its better for having Kuva in it. Inside Tilesets are better overall than the outside ones but ive seen them far less.

[Doomsknightmare]

Why DE ?

This could've been a good endgame if Kuva reward is scaling, even with just a 5% boost per 5 mins, so players will try to stay as long as possible (that's what "endless" means right ?)

But now every public squad just leave at 20 mins, because the reward is always dat poor 200 Kuva regardless how long you can stay, so why bother dealing with lv.80+ mobs just for the same 200 Kuva ?

Oh man, I'm really disappointed by DE... Why DE just refuse to give us sth challenging as well as rewarding ? All endless missions should have scaling reward !

[fluffysnowcap]

Devstream 109, no talk word on endless kuva. I think its safe to say that DE have said that its not getting changed by them not addressing it.

[Kimimoto]

Just now, fluffysnowcap said:

Devstream 109

Onslaught better be amazing, or else I'm pretty much going to stop playing. They can't even address the community on this subject.

[Tiborcaptain]

3 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Onslaught better be amazing, or else I'm pretty much going to stop playing. They can't even address the community on this subject.

Welcome to the club..i have a clan of 100 people that turned inactive in the past 2-3 weeks.. now less then 5 player even login daily because of the disappointment that this failure of a kuva farm have caused

[(PSN)Seratronix]

On 4/11/2018 at 8:41 AM, bAnthony24 said:

The objective was so that the Endless Kuva doesn't take away from the already implemented Kuva Missions... so to scale the kuva rewards in the Endless Kuva Survival, would most definitely take away from the other missions...

Something that a lot of people are over looking...

No they just dont care about DE's wants and wishes.. 

[(PSN)Cyotis]

I want the challenge of higher level enemies. More level 80+ missions and content. Not just the 3 sorties and an occasional Kuva Flood. I would also love more Corrupted Mods for the Warframes. More positive and negative combinations. Perhaps someday, all the combinations! Negative Power Strength & Positive Duration for example and so on.

 

Also yes, make Sythes bigger! Grim Reaper big! Have them be able to use both stances, heavy blade and scythe stances.

[Kimimoto]

18 hours ago, (PS4)sarahsaurusx2014 said:

No they just dont care about DE's wants and wishes.. 

Quote

Definitely not, getting 300 per siphon would be on par with floods.

If it scaled from 200-250 running floods would still be the best option, but endurance runners would be incentivised to stay rather than leave. 

Since it's time based you'd get less rewards for resetting, and more for being able to go longer.

Yes we do care, DE doesn't care what we want even if it's within what they want. It's not about us not listening to them, they aren't listening to us. They haven't spoken about this since it came out, even though they threw out the old "these values are subject to change based on feedback". They haven't even acknowledged the feedback.

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Yes we do care, DE doesn't care what we want even if it's within what they want. It's not about us not listening to them, they aren't listening to us. They haven't spoken about this since it came out, even though they threw out the old "these values are subject to change based on feedback". They haven't even acknowledged the feedback.

I feel you there, but I wouldn't agree that they don't care; but that they don't agree with us and our game experience versus their internal testing such as it is.

[Eljureo]

On 14. 4. 2018 at 1:01 AM, Tiborcaptain said:

Welcome to the club..i have a clan of 100 people that turned inactive in the past 2-3 weeks.. now less then 5 player even login daily because of the disappointment that this failure of a kuva farm have caused

Certainly there are other things to do in Warframe. Rewards could be scalable up to 1000 kuva per pod and those people would still get bored of it.

[(PSN)dst123daniel]

I ran the kuva survival a few times, and enjoyed it much more than syphons and floods, the mission just flows better, no need to hunt the kuva clouds.

But I am also of the opinion this mode is the ideal place to have scaling rewards to encourage going longer and facing higher level content. Currently it's pretty easy to go to 40 minutes, but no real point going much longer, applying the fissure mission boosters would be very welcome.

If there are concerns that adding an increasing booster with rotations will cause an imbalance, maybe have something like a focus orb spawn, but instead of giving a boost to operator focus gain, it would give a boost to kuva gain for a limited time

[Kimimoto]

10 hours ago, Urlan said:

I wouldn't agree that they don't care; but that they don't agree with us

Then they should say they don't and why, not avoid us. Take a minute on a Devstream.

[MirageKnight]

13 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Then they should say they don't and why, not avoid us. Take a minute on a Devstream.

Or even a quick post on the forums would work.

That said, I think this is a completely reasonable request. While the devs aren't obligated to explain their reasoning behind decisions, it gives players the feeling that while the devs may not necessarily agree with what we as a group want or would like to see happen, they do listen and are willing to acknowledge us.

Take me for instance. I run a mod for Company of Heroes 2 (so in a sense I'm a dev) and one of the most frequent requests I get is to re-include a rare, early war Soviet heavy tank - the KV-2. I simply tell them that it's not coming back because 1. the time period of the mod doesn't jibe with the time period that the KV-2 was most active and 2. the KV-2 was produced in such small quantities that most had been destroyed or converted to KV-1's a short while before the time period the mod is set in. It's not an answer some people want to hear and there have been people that have been really disappointed with my decision but hey, at least they got a reasonable explanation: That including the unit doesn't fit with a particular goal / theme of the mod. It's never nice to disappoint your fanbase, but sometimes as a dev you have to stick to your guns and put your foot down to make your visions and goals clear. The important thing about that though is to make THAT clear to your playerbase and in a way that's respectful and accommodating. In my case, I've told players "Hey sorry people, but no KV-2. I know some of you like it, but it doesn't fit with the time period the mod is set in. In its place is a different unit that can do the same job and is more appropriate to the time period."

It's clear, to me at least, that the devs have intended for Kuva Survival to be an alternative to Siphons and such - and not a replacement. Nor does it seem that they intend to reward / give incentives to players for playing for very long lengths of time. However, they really should come out and actually make it clear what their intentions for Kuva Survival are and what they will and won't do with it, instead of keeping people guessing and waiting for a reply. The more DE stay silent on this, the more impatient and frustrated the player-base is going to get. And to reiterate, I also think it's fairly understandable that people are a bit upset by DE's silence on this.

DE, you really need to be more engaging and transparent about this. You pride yourselves on transparency and being able to connect to your player-base but that really isn't happening in this rather important instance...and it's clearly upsetting your player-base. That's not good.

Just let people if you intend to scale Kuva rewards or not and give a quick reason why...and we'll shut up about it (well..at least some of us will anyway).

Disclaimer: I have ZERO interest in Kuva and Rivens, so my opinion on the matter is not in any way, shape, or form biased. I just feel that DE is being too evasive here.

 

[(XBOX)Nittymaster]

18 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Or even a quick post on the forums would work.

That said, I think this is a completely reasonable request. While the devs aren't obligated to explain their reasoning behind decisions, it gives players the feeling that while the devs may not necessarily agree with what we as a group want or would like to see happen, they do listen and are willing to acknowledge us.

Take me for instance. I run a mod for Company of Heroes 2 (so in a sense I'm a dev) and one of the most frequent requests I get is to re-include a rare, early war Soviet heavy tank - the KV-2. I simply tell them that it's not coming back because 1. the time period of the mod doesn't jibe with the time period that the KV-2 was most active and 2. the KV-2 was produced in such small quantities that most had been destroyed or converted to KV-1's a short while before the time period the mod is set in. It's not an answer some people want to hear and there have been people that have been really disappointed with my decision but hey, at least they got a reasonable explanation: That including the unit doesn't fit with a particular goal / theme of the mod. It's never nice to disappoint your fanbase, but sometimes as a dev you have to stick to your guns and put your foot down to make your visions and goals clear. The important thing about that though is to make THAT clear to your playerbase and in a way that's respectful and accommodating. In my case, I've told players "Hey sorry people, but no KV-2. I know some of you like it, but it doesn't fit with the time period the mod is set in. In its place is a different unit that can do the same job and is more appropriate to the time period."

It's clear, to me at least, that the devs have intended for Kuva Survival to be an alternative to Siphons and such - and not a replacement. Nor does it seem that they intend to reward / give incentives to players for playing for very long lengths of time. However, they really should come out and actually make it clear what their intentions for Kuva Survival are and what they will and won't do with it, instead of keeping people guessing and waiting for a reply. The more DE stay silent on this, the more impatient and frustrated the player-base is going to get. And to reiterate, I also think it's fairly understandable that people are a bit upset by DE's silence on this.

DE, you really need to be more engaging and transparent about this. You pride yourselves on transparency and being able to connect to your player-base but that really isn't happening in this rather important instance...and it's clearly upsetting your player-base. That's not good.

Just let people if you intend to scale Kuva rewards or not and give a quick reason why...and we'll shut up about it (well..at least some of us will anyway).

Disclaimer: I have ZERO interest in Kuva and Rivens, so my opinion on the matter is not in any way, shape, or form biased. I just feel that DE is being too evasive here.

 

Finally someone is saying what we all or most are thinking

[NecromancerX69]

Guys, this video is relevant, coming from a youtuber who does endless runs.

 

[MirageKnight]

12 hours ago, (XB1)Nittymaster said:

Finally someone is saying what we all or most are thinking

I appreciate the shout-out, but I'm sure there are other players that have said something similar elsewhere. They deserve credit as well!

[Kimimoto]

7 hours ago, NecromancerX69 said:

relevant

This is what I had to tell my friends when they asked, "Oh, that Kuva thing came out, how is it? Does it promote playing well?" No it's not worth doing as an Endless gamemode.

[(PSN)RaisedWithEwoks]

Ahhh DE? Hello? Anyone there? Scale the Kuva!!!

If your not gonna address this at least make kuva rerolls cheaper please, 3500 kuva after 10 rolls is stupid as it takes 20 mins in the fortress just to farm this much!! 

[ZirkonX]

When will the scale happen.... 95% of the people in game have been asking for this... 
This could be a proper endgame for most of the people.

[Graavarg]

I have now farmed +250k kuva at Taveuni, and I still really like this mission. As it is (now that most or all bugs are gone as well). For me, it is a GREAT alternative to standard kuva missions (which I've always hated), but the more I've played Taveuni the more I actually like the mission itself. Or rather how it brings out both new, funny and strange combinations of frames and coop play. Which is what Warframe is all about, for me.

The majority of Taveuni runs have actually been fun, which is more than I can say about just about any other farming mission. In contrast to a lot of other players I completely fail to see what scaling kuva would bring to this mission (or the game), except more kuva. Or rather, more kuva to the really experienced, already "godly" equipped masters of Warframe. While I completely understand why this would be a good thing on a personal level, I also completely fail to see what a new and more effective kuva acquisition method for this player segment would bring to the game overall.

There could be more late game/endgame content, sure, but the claims that this (content) should be one single endless mission allowing more effective kuva farming seems a bit strange to me. Shouldn't endgame be about more content, instead of "more kuva"? There is also the fact (logically) that ALL games will lack in endgame content, since... well... the end is sort of "the end". When developers move this goalpost forward in a game you love to play, you love them for it. But you will still reach the new end if you continue playing.

Then there is the thing about kuva feeding into the riven/plat business. Kuva is not only a player resource, something a player uses only to try and improve their hard-earned riven. It is also part of the internal economy, since you can use kuva to increase the plat value of a riven (buy cheap/veiled, roll with kuva, sell for mucho plat). Currently this is somewhat under control (anyone can check the "trade channel" and compare the amount of plat/riven announcements to more game content related "get missing prime part" and wtt announcements). Adding a new, (much) more effective kuva resource than the existing ones would directly impact the internal economy, which already favors higher level players. Printing more money and increasing everybody's salary would make a lot of people happy IRL, but it still isn't really a smart thing to do (ask any economist, I think the consensus would be "it's beyond stupid" ). Basically adding more kuva to the game is, indirectly, a bit like this. And I am not convinced it would be a smart thing to do.

Like so many other players, I would also like to get a better reward for running Taveuni, both for running it many times and for running the missions longer. Both for my own egoistic reasons (more stuff!) and as an incentive to the four Tennos to press forward (beyond the 20 min mark). However, in my opinion this should be something other than "more kuva". I also think that the current amount of drops (at Taveuni) is quite good (especially with a good Nekros in the team), but the possible reward pool is quite limited. So for me, personally, the best (and only needed) improvement at Taveuni would be to increase the reward pool.

Adding a new set of rare drop loot to the reward pool with every rotation (5 min) would be a great addition to Taveuni, even if the overall chance for a rare drop would stay the same (a 30 min. run usually nets 3-6 rare mods, though I don't have clue where I picked them up, since things are usually a bit hectic). It could even be a "mysterious" addition, something like one rare mod added every 5 minutes from some huge subset of the rares in the game. Or it could be connected to drops available on the planets/missions where you currently can do traditional kuva missions (sort of like the Kuva Fortress brings kuva to the planets, the planets bring additional drops to the kuva endless mission at Kuva Fortress). For me, this would make Taveuni more interesting (and rewarding), it would add another aspect to the mission, and it would entice players to go longer. In short, not necessarily more rewards as such, but more variation in what you get.

[fluffysnowcap]

27 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Then there is the thing about kuva feeding into the riven/plat business. Kuva is not only a player resource, something a player uses only to try and improve their hard-earned riven. It is also part of the internal economy, since you can use kuva to increase the plat value of a riven (buy cheap/veiled, roll with kuva, sell for mucho plat). Currently this is somewhat under control (anyone can check the "trade channel" and compare the amount of plat/riven announcements to more game content related "get missing prime part" and wtt announcements). Adding a new, (much) more effective kuva resource than the existing ones would directly impact the internal economy, which already favors higher level players. Printing more money and increasing everybody's salary would make a lot of people happy IRL, but it still isn't really a smart thing to do (ask any economist, I think the consensus would be "it's beyond stupid" ). Basically adding more kuva to the

I don't think you know what you're talking about there. Inflating the amount of kuva and reducing the Grind will result in genuinely better rolls and more competition for so called "GOD RIVENS" Unless everything I know about economics is wrong, it will result in a greater supply than demand. That can only result in reduced prices. making them effectively limited by the drop rate of rivens instead of the rolling cost.

[Graavarg]

2 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

I don't think you know what you're talking about there. Inflating the amount of kuva and reducing the Grind will result in genuinely better rolls and more competition for so called "GOD RIVENS" Unless everything I know about economics is wrong, it will result in a greater supply than demand. That can only result in reduced prices. making them effectively limited by the drop rate of rivens instead of the rolling cost.

Yes, market economy-wise the price of "godly" rivens should come down if more such rivens got into the market (= not for personal use, but explicitly for sale).

However, in this case only experienced players will get more kuva, get more rolls, and produce more "godly" stuff. This wouldn't benefit new, casual and/or mid-level players at all, in fact their situation would be (even) worse, since all this happens outside their reach (plat-, gear- and mapwise).

Even if the plat-price of good rivens would come down a little bit (due to competition), the situation would be like a developing country (noob-mid) vs an industrialized one (high level). That is, high level players would buy "trash" and/or veiled rivens (raw resources) at low prices, use kuva on them and sell "good rivens" (the end product) back at (much) higher prices. If you want to know how this plays out for the developing countries, check around the world. In Warframe it would be the same.

Instead of having a game system that gives (even) bigger advantages to high level players (concerning rivens, plat & kuva), it should be the opposite. Not only for the actual game play itself, but also for DE. Giving more advantage to high level players is sort of the anti-thesis of keeping Warframe alive. This is especially true in the case of a system that would move more plat from "poor" players to the "rich" ones (regardless of any political connotations ). Since you actually need some plat to advance in the game in a meaningful fashion (new weapon & frame slots, etc. etc.), this would make more players stop playing at certain points.

Now, just to make it clear, I have absolutely nothing against high-level players, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. One reason I got hooked on Warframe in the first place was that a lot of high-level players were really nice (when I was a lowly noob). And if Taveuni gave the double amount, I would be sitting on a pile of 500k kuva and could do a sh*tload of riven-rolling. I would of course like that, very much. But I still think that creating a more effective kuva-resource would be bad for Warframe, at least as the environment and the game currently functions. Now, if DE locked kuva for personal use only (you couldn't trade kuva-rolled rivens anymore, like with leveled weapons) things would be different, but I kind of prefer the current more open system.

[fluffysnowcap]

Have you not seen the arcane market?