Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

[Valiant]

Still kinda think the 200 should be higher. It looks and seems too low for the time spent doing all this.

We should be rewarded for our time and effort, not just slightly tickled with something vaguely worthwhile.

Reward your players DE.

[Zhoyzu]

As long as the rate of kuva gain is equatable to running regular siphons (including time to load and leave and select another) ill be pleased. Ive got rivens to roll so the sooner this drops the better!!!

[CorerMaximus]

Kuva farmer here- 200 seems a bit too low to be honest; moreso when compared to the current riven rolling costs, payouts from regular siphons, and added difficulty of managing high level defense content with constant moving around in the case the squad decided to activate multiple Harvestors.

Let me break down the big issue- how much we get. When I farm kuva, I go in a 3 man squad with a volt to breeze through the levels; and have the squadmates finish the objective and forcestart the extraction timer when I reach 3/4 braids while I take care of the siphon. Doing so nets me about 900 kuva in 4 minutes in most rescue and exterminate missions, and 5 in the case of survival and mobile defense missions.

At the rate of 4 siphons used for harvesting with 1 for life support (4 nekros for using all pillars are harvestors are unviable due to the high level nature of the kuva fortress requiring CC to prevent insta-destruction of harvestors); this is already less rewarding than siphons, and falls flat when compared to floods. Add on the stress of quickly getting to a squadmates harvestor in time before the kuva drop despawns, and this mode just doesn't seem rewarding enough. 

In my honest opinion- make the survival more rewarding than siphons even by a little bit to keep players playing this game mode; don't be afraid of damaging the viability of siphons by themselves and cannibalizing that game mode- not everyone wants to deal with the micromanagement associated with survival kuva harvesting and people will still play siphons outside of the Kuva fortress. I suggest bumping up the kuva drop to 300-500 per siphon and having it be instantly shared across the squad like regular kuva siphons as opposed to being a physical pickup.

[IggySnow]

Kiva not increasing as time goes on is a HUGE mistake. Even if it was a small amount, say +25 kuva per kuva catalyst used, it would still give people way more motivation to play this game mode for longer than 10 min. 

Or, at least be consistant with your reasons to not make it increase over time, that being you want to keep it in line with your other endless missions, and make it so that the amount of kuva you get goes up every 5 min stayed, until you reach 20 min where it goes back to 200. 

So the amount of kuva would follow the a,a,b,c rotation. Maybe 200 for a, 350 for b, 750 for c. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

Next, can we have Kuva be useful (but not forced on us) for stuff outside of Rivens and crafting?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

Add on the stress of quickly getting to a squadmates harvestor in time before the kuva drop despawns, and this mode just doesn't seem rewarding enough.

That's a really good point.  Making the kuva reward a drop means that it can despawn, and it's bad for splitting the squad into 2 teams for faster filters.  However, given that capsules only spawn once every 2.5+ minutes, it may not be feasible to split up, since you won't have a second capsule to use anyways.

[Blue_Robot]

29 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

You could literally say that for anything ever, even everything in the future. That's not a valid reason.

Lets just have one nice thing please.

Trust me when I say that it will probably be easily breakable. If that doesn't bring concern to you, I have no clue what will.

Don't get me wrong though. I too want nice things, and If it the update ships with scaling rewards, I'll definitely try my darnest to get to the point where you get thousands of kuva per life support delivery before it gets nerfed (IF it gets nerfed.). and if it does ship with only the posted mechanics to make it more "interesting", then getting there won't be that hard at all.

 

If it ships with endless scaling kuva and no tweaks to the mechanics, simply put, the siphon and flood missions will become inefficient. Then we're back to farming one map over and over again with a meta squad. Fun times ahead.

Oh, and solo players can go screw themselves cuz why not?

[Sea_Wall]

The reason people requested endless koova survival is because they want a reason to do endless and face high level enemies. This does not accomplish that due to the lack of a koova reward scaling providing no insensitive  to not just reset. 

[lihimsidhe]

@[DE]Sheldon : Or should I say... Kreldon?!  Firstly I'd like to thank you for finally doing this.  Not having kuva in the Kuva Fortress was like a grocery store called Foodtown having no food. So whether or not this iteration of kuva acquisition stays as it is, this is a step in the right direction.

However I beg of to not tie kuva acquisition to survival towers or any given mission type.  These are my reasons:

• I'm a fan of survival but not everyone is.
• Survival via oxygen supply, from a narrative standpoint, makes very, very, little sense.  I'm not saying revamp survival now but eventually DE will and it's better to not have to rewrite the Kuva Acquistion from the ground up when that happens.  The reason we don't have survivals on any planets is due to unavoidable cognitive dissonance of reality vs the oxygen mechanic.  Placing survivals on ships only decreases this cognitive dissonance albeit very slightly.

Solution

Kuva Squad Spawn. Any Kuva Fortress mission will spawn at least one Kuva Squad.  This squad is identical to the Kuva Squads that spawn in during floods sans the Kuva Siphon.  Any members of this squad have a chance to drop kuva.  Endless missions spawn at least 1 squad per rotation.

Kuva Caches. Exactly what it sounds like.  Kuva Fortress caches that currently exist now have a chance to award kuva.

As long as kuva via the Fortress doesn't outpace that of Kuva Siphons/Floods per time spent, the above solution makes sense from a narrative standpoint, allows all of the Kuva Fortress to see the play it always deserved, and when DE eventually moves past the utterly insane oxygen mechanic, kuva acquistion can remain untouched.

Thanks for your time!

 

 

[CorerMaximus]

9 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

That's a really good point.  Making the kuva reward a drop means that it can despawn, and it's bad for splitting the squad into 2 teams for faster filters.  However, given that capsules only spawn once every 2.5+ minutes, it may not be feasible to split up, since you won't have a second capsule to use anyways.

Good point on splitting up- to get the most out of harvesting- the squad would want to maximize enemy kills to drop lifesupport to bypass using the siphons for life support instead of kuva. Capsules spawn much more frequently at the rate of about 1 a minute; but if the squad is going ham killing things and the siphons are far apart; the kuva itself may despawn; it's going to be really tough balancing killing a whole lot of grineer to use siphons solely for kuva; and then having those grineer drop enough loot to have said kuva despawn.

[Svecica]

What if we want Clem to 'clem' at us every time we get kuva? 

[grumpykitten49]

3 hours ago, CelestialStorm said:

 

How would the kuva reward scaling get in the way of mimicing the mechanics of "Excavation / Defense with the intensity of Survival?"
 

Its would be like cryotic in excavation, you don't get more and more cryotic(i.e, scaling cryotic) as you complete more excavators. You would always get a flat 100 cryotic per excavator.

But i think the problem here is that people want to do Kuva endless for the sole purpose of getting Kuva, but with the current non scaling 200 Kuva per life support system is intended for kuva to be a passive farm to the real reward, which are the relics.

Even so, i still feel we need a slight increase in kuva per life support , by 50 probably, or by increasing the number of kuva life supports able to be spawned simultaneously. Just as if we were doing excavation with an organized team, we can spawn in multiple excavators to get more rewards faster, in this case we can get kuva faster.

Thank you for the Kuva workshop Sheldon, if you read this thank you for reading.

 

[Anthraxicus]

1 hour ago, Green_Alien said:

Okay, so I haven't considered the kuva guardians yet. And I am not aware of the exponentially longer period between life support towers you mentioned (since we don;t use them in fissure or regular survival missions.) So I guess it will be a bit more challenging with just two people.

But still, 3 or 4 people will still easily break the game mode if scaling is introduced.

It shouldn't be a faster way to obtain kuva compared to siphons/floods. It should only be an alternative. Or it could just be a simple endless mission with a bit of currency reward to those who are not fans of waiting for survival fissure missions to pop up or regular endless missions.

Well, it is a basic mechanic of survival

Quote

Each Life Support Capsule tend to be placed in each section of a map roughly around every 2 minutes and 30 seconds (150 seconds) before another capsule is dropped off by the Lotus. This is after the 5 minute start of the Survival.

• This delay will slowly increase overtime, and there is a cap on extra support capsules 'in queue'.
• If there are three separate rooms that can accommodate Life Support Capsules, the first room will no longer be dropped off, instead the latter two rooms are provided in a cycle.

And it is not even a matter of being a faster way to obtain Kuva. It is actually a slower way. Alternative or not, I don't see people using it to farm Kuva. I can see some hardcore players going for it for endurance runs, but not to farm Kuva. 

[SQLOwns]

Seems cool to me. 

Only point I will make is what others have said.  As difficulty scales, have the Kuva reward scale. 

If the difficulty stops scaling, then it is fine for the Kuva reward to stop scaling as well.

[WhiteCr0w]

What people are failing to understand, or completely missed, is that they stated the kuva amounts gained from this are aimed to be between Siphon and Flood. Kuva Endless isn't supposed to be the new best way to get Kuva, so stop making suggestions from that point of view. This is more an alternate or additional way to get Kuva.

Scaling would be nice, but don't forget, resource boosters and Kavat buffs are going to effect this. I also presume we'll be able to have multiple harvesters going at once. We'll be getting Kuva pretty quickly, fret not.

[Hyro1]

Any complaining about how this doesnt compare to kuva shipons and kuva floods needs to stop. This is endless, you can stay as long as you want, and you can get more in one mission than the others.

[TucsonKaHN]

@WhiteCr0w valid point. I'm still not of the mind, however, that the risk involved is worth the investment. Scaling rewards may not be the solution, but 200 Kuva per harvestor does not seem like a reasonable reward either. As I mentioned in a previous comment on this thread, there are still more details behind the mechanics which need to be clarified. Until then, the process as laid out on paper does not justifiably reward the player for the level of risk taken. Perhaps the findings will be different in practice, but we don't have that data to work with yet.

[Tiborcaptain]

Just why do DE thinks if most players are dissatisfied with the regular missions giving 600 kuva/mission that if they make a mission that's even LESS worth your time doing will people but doing that instead ? I mean 200 ? 600 was already monotone and hellishly bad but 200 doesn't even worth 1 minute of my time when in consideration takes generally 16-20 rolls to get anything decent on a riven... but hey guys lets go do 6 hours of survival so you can roll that crappy riven once for a chance to be the same or crappy one,,, DE logic prevails once more.

[Vanille]

56 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

As long as the rate of kuva gain is equatable to running regular siphons (including time to load and leave and select another) ill be pleased. Ive got rivens to roll so the sooner this drops the better!!!

People are only reading on paper numbers and make it sound terribly bad. 200 kuva per life support is actually decent, specially if booster works on them. Life supports drop ever minute and a half as long as you have life support slots available, so you'll need 2 and a half minute per kuva reward including the 1 minute defending it. You can extract kuva twice per 5 minutes reward rotation, and thats 400 (or 800 with booster) every 5 minutes in a consistent pace, while kuva missions are targeted on random nodes in the near planets, you could rng land on a quick capture/extermination mission or a mobile defense, survival, sabotage, spy or any other longer mission type, which will be more than 5 minutes for more or less the same amount of kuva. Endless kuva already has the consistency adventage, but if they boost the kuva reward from 200 to 250, that would be a really balanced choice imo. 500 (1000 with booster) every 5 minutes, 100-200 less than regular kuva missions with the trade off of being consistent, seems fair.

The scaling enemies vs reward won't be a problem because of its consistency. I can already see the popular setups people will use, since it's a grineer map camping life support spots. 4 CP with Limbo + Mesa + Nekros + Banshee/Rhino/Harrow.

[Kimimoto]

2 minutes ago, Kiwinille said:

People are only reading on paper numbers and make it sound terribly bad.

I agree 200 Kuva is fine, but there needs to be some sort of scaling. Even if Kuva starts out at 100 and Scales capping out at 300, that's enough incentive to stay.

[Nez-Kal]

Please for the love of all that is good in this game Do NOT scale the Kuva reward like others are asking.

I want to step into this new Survival type and enjoy myself and play, not have 3 other people screaming at me to GTFO because I don't have the super specific ultra Kuva Endless Meta build on for the 2-4 hour run that is the ONLY way to play on the Node now (even if I join on Public). Scaling the kuva rewards would create a super toxic atmosphere around the Kuva Endless mission, and if anything, would only scare most of the player base away from it as only Elites hog it all and hold any others hostage inside the mission until they eventually just abort it to leave (thus also closing the door most likely for any continued development or updating of the node as DE will want nothing to do with it, and will be too scared to touch/change it as well).

People will claim Rivens are becoming an "Elites Only" playground, and superior Riven Rolls through Mass Rolls will begin to appear purely in the hands of Endless Kuva Elites Farmers (Cause who's gonna waste their time on the pathetic Roaming Nodes now? Pfft.).

 

Non-scaling Reward = We're here because this mission type is fun to play and more worth it than the Roaming Nodes, and we can stop and step out before the end of the hour to farm the Flood Node before coming back in

Scaling Reward = We're only here to farm and farm hard with the most Elite set ups possible and we don't leave for HOURS and this node is only for us Elite and ONLY the Elite and everyone else better scram and stop diluting the Public mission mode with their lowly filth

 

 

(But seriously though, if there are 3 Elites they WILL hold a 4th member hostage in the mission and trash talk them until they leave and never come back, that's the toxic style I know would be coming for the Node)

[ADirtyMonk]

Great. Another variation of the mind numbingly boring turtle in one tile and defend the squishy mission complete with mandatory frost/limbo/nekros.

 

How about you make kuva clouds randomly spawn around the map every 2-3 min so players are encouraged to continuously roam around the map and kuva enemies actually drop some kuva so players are encouraged to kill everything instead of just turtling until the next life support spawns?

Clouds drop 200-300 each

Kuva Guards drop 35 (appears randomly around map with jester at shorter intervals than clouds)

Kuva Jesters drop 15

Normal enemies drop 1 each

 

Seriously.  Its been 5 years worth of Warframe, why is the mission design team still so fixated on pushing these dumb static defense style missions? Or is this some sort of passive aggressive move for having to finally cave in and put kuva in the goddamn kuva fortress?

[WhiteCr0w]

10 minutes ago, Kiwinille said:

You can extract kuva twice per 5 minutes reward rotation, and thats 400 (or 800 with booster) every 5 minutes in a consistent pace, while kuva missions are targeted on random nodes in the near planets, you could rng land on a quick capture/extermination mission or a mobile defense, survival, sabotage, spy or any other longer mission type, which will be more than 5 minutes for more or less the same amount of kuva.

Indeed. The rewards do not need to scale. It would be completely broken if they did, and people would end up with stupid amounts of Kuva in almost no time. I suppose that's what they want, with little care for balance and how it would invalidate the other methods of gaining Kuva. They're complaining about it for selfish reasons and shouldn't be taken seriously or into consideration.

Hopefully DE doesn't cave.

[TenGaugeBoson]

YAY!!!

but also

•  
•  

I still truly want to go to the Kuva fortress and rob a Kuva Vault.

Wouldn't care if it was a raid , a mission , and extended spy, an escort a capture. or even better

 An extended repeatable quest.That starts with ;;;

      1.A spy mission in the kuva fortress that drops a schismatic or something . "with whatever drop chance"

      2. That leads to you needing a key that you need from some guy  . So then a capture mission.

      3. The key from the capture is used to drive a vessel of some sort inside the fortress "escort mission'\

      4.Leads to a covert multi assassination of targets who operate lock outs that need to be neutralized

      5 which the leads to an obstacle coarse   kinda like in the dojo. that is timed and some how includes Lunaro

      6. which leads to the final spy with a big fat pay out of kuva and a part to a special weapon or frame.

Or...a part or blueprint for a tenno kuva extractor that we could place on planets like the ones we already have that I never use.This is prolly to much though tbh.

Something like this would make me happy on the inside.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

5 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Please for the love of all that is good in this game Do NOT scale the Kuva reward like others are asking.

I want to step into this new Survival type and enjoy myself and play, not have 3 other people screaming at me to GTFO because I don't have the super specific ultra Kuva Endless Meta build on for the 2-4 hour run that is the ONLY way to play on the Node now (even if I join on Public). Scaling the kuva rewards would create a super toxic atmosphere around the Kuva Endless mission, and if anything, would only scare most of the player base away from it as only Elites hog it all and hold any others hostage inside the mission until they eventually just abort it to leave (thus also closing the door most likely for any continued development or updating of the node as DE will want nothing to do with it, and will be too scared to touch/change it as well).

People will claim Rivens are becoming an "Elites Only" playground, and superior Riven Rolls through Mass Rolls will begin to appear purely in the hands of Endless Kuva Elites Farmers (Cause who's gonna waste their time on the pathetic Roaming Nodes now? Pfft.).

 

Non-scaling Reward = We're here because this mission type is fun to play and more worth it than the Roaming Nodes, and we can stop and step out before the end of the hour to farm the Flood Node before coming back in

Scaling Reward = We're only here to farm and farm hard with the most Elite set ups possible and we don't leave for HOURS and this node is only for us Elite and ONLY the Elite and everyone else better scram and stop diluting the Public mission mode with their lowly filth

 

 

(But seriously though, if there are 3 Elites they WILL hold a 4th member hostage in the mission and trash talk them until they leave and never come back, that's the toxic style I know would be coming for the Node)

...and have it be as terrible as the face animation in Andromeda? It needs something more, otherwise it will just be too inefficient.