Let us play against AI

[Maniac523]

The vast majority of players actively avoid conclave and with good reason. The twitchy bullet jump/roll spam nonsense that is conclave in its current state is neither fun nor rewarding for anyone but the handful of diehard conclave fans. Recruit conditioning is a good step in the right direction but as soon as your rank is too high for that you return to standing absolutely 0 chance because you've gained maybe 3 or 4 good mods. Meanwhile you're being thrown against said diehard fans that have full optimized loadouts specifically for winning conclave, not to mention the massive amount of experience they have.

So for people like myself that don't want to play Conclave, don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever winning a match, and still want to get the cosmetics, Conclave becomes the single most disheartening grind this game has ever had. I can either deal with that, give up, or risk being banned for trying to cheat the system. There is no winning option.

So why not let us play against specters? The AI was updated relatively recently and the predecessor to Conclave allowed us to play against them. It gives newcomers a chance to gain standing and mods and lets the diehard fans play amongst themselves. Hell even if we have to supply the specters ourselves for every match that would be a massive improvement over what we have now.

[Zhoyzu]

i didnt see this was in the pvp subforums LOL 

I was like what do you mean?!? the endless hordes arent AI enough for ya? XD

[Stormdragon]

Basically allow players to get PvP syndicate rewards with no need of doing PvP... which would entirely defeat the purpose of the conclave rewards in a game that's already mainly PvE focused. 

I wouldn't mind a pvp arena with bots as long as it was for practice purposes only, hence gave no standing or rewards.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Stormdragon

[Maniac523]

Just now, Stormdragon said:

Basically allow players to get PvP syndicate rewards with no need of doing PvP... which would entirely defeat the purpose of the conclave in a game that's already mainly PvE focused.

Pretty much. PVP in this game is--in all honesty--terrible. I wouldn't shed a single tear if Conclave went the way of Trials and was removed altogether, but it still has exclusive cosmetics. If anyone wants them they have to slog through the worst, slowest grind in the game. I honestly believe it's been long enough. It's clear to me that Conclave isn't popular enough to justify forcing people into it if they want some nice looking sigils and skins. At least with specters players would be able to start a match and make something resembling progress.

[Xaero]

Play Lunaro ;)

[Sormaran]

Thats why unique rewards are cosmetics tho, you know? If, for example, some core mod like, lets say, primed flow would be conclave exclusive - then we have a problem. But thats not the case, plus you can even buy some cosmetics, like one set of armor.

Overall seems like "i want this, but dont wanna do anything to get it BabyRage" complaint.

[Maniac523]

Just now, Ksaero said:

Play Lunaro ;)

I actually queued up for a free for all match right after posting this thread and I've been sitting on this screen https://i.imgur.com/ZI9eXrw.png ever since. All of the game modes are underpopulated.

[NeoRetro10K]

There are two vicious cycles that keep PvP from working:

1.) For those who don't like Conclave - they won't play it because DE won't change it, but DE doesn't change it because, like Trials, nobody plays it.

2.) For those who would like to play Conclave in its current iteration - nobody else plays it, so there is no one to play with, so they don't play either.

What's more, these two vicious cycles feed into one another as well; the lack of players caused by one cycle leads to a lack of players which reinforces the other cycle as well.

The OP's solution is the only thing short of completely revamping PvP (which DE are, again, hesitant to do) that could make the mode worth something, and not leave the rewards to taunt everybody.

[taiiat]

the Specters would be WAY too easy. they'll just be free points for you - which is not what Conclave is about.

just learn Player Movement in this game - it's complex, has a ton of depth. you should have learned it already, but Conclave is the only place where knowing how to move is actually tested in the game. yes, you will have to learn and use more advanced movement than simply holding W. and you will have to master aiming at moving targets.

[Sormaran]

8 minutes ago, Maniac523 said:

Pretty much.

Wait so you acknowledge that you want something for nothing and yet persist? I dont even know what to say... Thats not how it works. Especially in free to play game. Conclave being bad and unpopular doesnt mean we should get stuff from it for free for ignoring it.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sormaran

[Maniac523]

2 minutes ago, Sormaran said:

Wait so you acknowledge that you want something for nothing and yet persist? I dont even know what to say... Thats not how it works. Especially in free to play game.

No. I acknowledge that playing against AI defeats the purpose of a pvp game mode.

I also acknowledge that I'm willing to do some kind of work for the rewards, but with the current method I gain next to nothing, have no way to practice, and don't enjoy a single second of the grind.

There's a difference between that and asking for all of the conclave rewards without having to play a single match.

[Rabbid-]

I honestly don't believe that conclave is dead, I get to play it almost everytime I want to, what I think the reason for why players don't want to play conclave is because of the difference between PvE and PvP,
1. You don't see enemies bullet jumping do you, and when you see one it's probably in conclave.
2.The fact that everything is downgraded (speed, energy, ammo, damage) just to make things more balanced but then again, people still complain
3.If you're afraid of losing to 'experienced players' then don't even expect to win, you want something but you don't want to put any effort in it. 

I doubt that DE will release any bot mod since it will be super boring and the fact that we don't get anything from killing bot is just more than a waste of time.

Complaining about enemies' loadout that they specifically equipped for conclave is your fault, your the one that's digging your own grave for not equipping the right weapons like the new players who on have Bo/Skana with Excalwhen they started playing the game 

"Winners see what they want, losers see what they don't want, don't let the game eat you; YOU eat the game"
-Moe Norman (professional golfer)

[Maniac523]

28 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

I wouldn't mind a pvp arena with bots as long as it was for practice purposes only, hence gave no standing or rewards.

Honestly this wouldn't do anything for anyone. You might learn the map but unless the AI can be made to move with nonstop bullet jumps/rolls/wall dashes/etc and still managing pinpoint accuracy it won't come close enough to actual Conclave to teach you anything useful. At least if you gained standing and mods in a bot match you could prepare yourself for actual player matches. Bot matches are commonplace in lots of pvp games and the same thing happens in them: The bots don't ever teach you anything useful against an actual player but they let you get rewards to prepare yourself for the real deal. Also no matter how good a bot is eventually they become easy to deal with and you look for a harder challenge. That's when you step into actual pvp.

Maybe they add in diminishing returns to bot matches, but giving us nothing will help just as much as playing regular PVE missions.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Or possibly follow Titanfall route and sprinkle AI in PvP matches so even unskilled players can contribute in some way and feel good.

[ArchPhaeton]

Lol I gave up years ago. The only moments I touch PvP is when stuff like quick steel comes around, since it puts everyone in even grounds.

[armedpoop]

10 minutes ago, ArchPhaeton said:

Lol I gave up years ago. The only moments I touch PvP is when stuff like quick steel comes around, since it puts everyone in even grounds.

Conclave, in its current iteration, is the most balanced its ever been. People ARE on even grounds right now. If you mean modwise, you should see what the descriptions of the mods in question do. (nothing spectacular) The mods are easier than ever to get right now too, simply completing matches will drop rare mods and syndicate xp. 

[Xaero]

13 minutes ago, Maniac523 said:

I actually queued up for a free for all match right after posting this thread and I've been sitting on this screen https://i.imgur.com/ZI9eXrw.png ever since. All of the game modes are underpopulated.

Might depend on the timezone and region. I remember getting pretty good amount of opponents before completely abandoning Conclave.

IMO the main problem of Warframe's PvP underpopulation is meaningless rewards. Balance issues go second.

Long ago there were Dark Sectors battles which were very, very unbalanced. But they were very popular because of rewards which were determined by confronting clans and alliances. Pretty often you could get about 1 million credits in just 5-10 minute match.

IMO it'd be great if DE brought DS battles back. But I also think some changes are needed to make them more fun than ever.

The core of the system could be left almost untouched. Two clans or alliances act as opponents in taking control of the node which they can later put a tax on. Whoever gets more support during the battle period wins. The only change that is needed is how a pretender is chosen: not decided by who clicks the button first but maybe by the size of the pretender (which would incentivize creating really powerful alliances).

The gameplay part should get a complete rework though. Remember old Star Wars: Battlefront 2 (2006 IIRC)? There was a mode which could suit Warframe very well. So, this is how I think it should look like.

The battle takes place at open-space map with two large battleships (monorails?) on the different sides of the map acting as HQ's of the battling teams where they start and respawn. The goal of each team is to destroy the core of enemy battleship.

You can't attack enemy core right away though. Both battleships have a couple defence lines like turrets on the exterior and barriers inside the ships.

The first part of the battle takes place in open space via Archwings or controllable rides (like Dargyns in PoE). Before you can land on enemy's battleship you'll need to destroy its exterior defence line and then continue on foot fighting enemy players and specters.

To turn off energy barriers inside the ship two players should stay on buttons connected to the barrier by wires (just like in the last stage of LoR raid). After getting through every barrier, enemy core will finally become accessible. There you'll just need to damage it enough.

To make the battles more intense and less bullet-jumpy, the rule of low gravity could be applied meaning your movement speed would be significantly reduced while in air, making you an easier target.

[ArchPhaeton]

2 hours ago, armedpoop said:

Conclave, in its current iteration, is the most balanced its ever been. People ARE on even grounds right now. -

Not really when the few users it has completely obliterate anyone trying it out. Same with lunaro (in the rare occasions i found people there) and while it's possible to git gud at this point I can't care enough to take that learning curve

[Stormdragon]

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

Pretty much. PVP in this game is--in all honesty--terrible. I wouldn't shed a single tear if Conclave went the way of Trials and was removed altogether, but it still has exclusive cosmetics.

Thing is, "terrible" is just an opinion which is usually reinforced by players who love warframe because of the power fantasy it offers in PvE, but hate to see it taken away in order to have a balanced PvP experience. The rewards are, as you said, nothing but cosmetics, so these have no gameplay impact. Using cosmetics rewards as an argument is as dumb as trying to brimg raids back only for the sekharas.

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

If anyone wants them they have to slog through the worst, slowest grind in the game.

Seeing PvP as "just another grind" will only make the experience worst since you're not there for the enjoyment of the gameplay. I could cry the same about riven mods and trying to make them worth something since no matter how much kuva i farm, the RNG nature of them can potentially make this an endless grind.

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

I honestly believe it's been long enough. It's clear to me that Conclave isn't popular enough to justify forcing people into it if they want some nice looking sigils and skins.

As you pointed, "You want nice looking sigils and skins", you don't need them, you're not getting forced into pvp to get something, you are doing it on your own because you want the rewards. 

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

At least with specters players would be able to start a match and make something resembling progress.

With specters you'd be simply removing the PvP aspect of the conclave, at that point things wouldn't be much different from jumping into rathuum.

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

Honestly this wouldn't do anything for anyone. You might learn the map but unless the AI can be made to move with nonstop bullet jumps/rolls/wall dashes/etc and still managing pinpoint accuracy it won't come close enough to actual Conclave to teach you anything useful.

I entirely agree with this, and that's exactly why giving conclave standing for a match against bots doesn't make any sense.

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

At least if you gained standing and mods in a bot match you could prepare yourself for actual player matches. Bot matches are commonplace in lots of pvp games and the same thing happens in them: The bots don't ever teach you anything useful against an actual player but they let you get rewards to prepare yourself for the real deal.

Pvp mods aren't hard to obtain, many of them drop from Lua sentients and those that don't are usually quite cheap in teshin's inventory or have a chance to drop ramdomly at the end of a match; there's also plenty of conclave players who get more standing that they'll ever need and don't mind giving away conclave mods to players willing to improve. Since you're aiming for the cosmetics, I'm sure that skins don't change anything when it comes to gameplay, so unless their acquisition got changed to something like "get X kills  in public matches with this weapon" or anything that actually shows fulfilling a challenge, standing doesn't look like a good reward for doing PvE arena.

6 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

Also no matter how good a bot is eventually they become easy to deal with and you look for a harder challenge. That's when you step into actual pvp.

Maybe they add in diminishing returns to bot matches, but giving us nothing will help just as much as playing regular PVE missions.

I think further changes to reward acquisition, matchmaking and syndicate rating should be made to the current system in order to make conclave against bots a viable way to get standing, otherwise people would simply farm bots for the rewards without gettimg any actual pvp experience, leading to them being put only against actually experienced players if they ever want to give actual pvp a try (pretty much like players ranking up only by playing lunaro and willing to try conclave after being left put of RC)

3 hours ago, ArchPhaeton said:

Not really when the few users it has completely obliterate anyone trying it out. 

That's not an issue with balance, but with matchmaking instead. Part of the issue is the way rewards are handed to players since many people will rush their way out of RC in order to get the skins and sigils asap, while other players who don't care about those things but want an inflated KD will keep bullying newbies in recruit conditioning forever.

[Maniac523]

6 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

The rewards are, as you said, nothing but cosmetics, so these have no gameplay impact. Using cosmetics rewards as an argument is as dumb as trying to brimg raids back only for the sekharas.

So much of this game's economy and such a large part of the gamepley experience is based around cosmetics that, yes, this is in fact an entirely valid argument. Cosmetics have always been and always will be a strong driving force. If you don't agree with that then that's on you. It's still a fact that people will pay money, invest time, or in some cases even sacrifice something purely for cosmetics. The fact that it doesn't affect gameplay honestly makes no difference. Shake your head all you want but when offered in games cosmetics always become popular.

6 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Seeing PvP as "just another grind" will only make the experience worst since you're not there for the enjoyment of the gameplay.

If I was there for the gameplay then believe me I wouldn't still be there. I would have given up entirely on Conclave as a whole after my 4th or 5th match. The only reason I bother looking for a match now is because there are exclusive rewards and playing Conclave is my only option when it comes to getting them.

6 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

As you pointed, "You want nice looking sigils and skins", you don't need them, you're not getting forced into pvp to get something, you are doing it on your own because you want the rewards. 

Just because no one is holding a gun to my head doesn't mean I'm not being forced. I want something and I only have one option on how to acquire it. I have no choice in what I do in order to meet my goal. If an outcome can only be reached by a singular path regardless of the desire of the subject performing the actions that is by definition being forced. If you think I'm not being forced then by all means explain how I can acquire Conclave rep without playing Conclave.

6 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

With specters you'd be simply removing the PvP aspect of the conclave, at that point things wouldn't be much different from jumping into rathuum.

I'm very much aware of this. This is purely conjecture but I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people that start playing bot matches in Conclave would outnumber the amount of people that actually want PVP.

[Maniac523]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

just learn Player Movement in this game - it's complex, has a ton of depth. you should have learned it already, but Conclave is the only place where knowing how to move is actually tested in the game. yes, you will have to learn and use more advanced movement than simply holding W. and you will have to master aiming at moving targets.

There's nothing to learn in all honesty. I've played enough Conclave to have reached a conclusion at this point: there is no method to the movement. Every encounter with every experienced player has resulted in the exact same thing: spam bullet jump as soon as you touch the ground, double jump, roll, wall hop, aim glide for a fraction of a second, and somehow have nearly aimbot or sticky sight levels of aim to track and kill the person doing the exact same thing. Except there's a difference on the other side of the gun. The newbie doesn't have mobility mods. They're sluggish, they're confused, they're disoriented, and 40, 50, 60 hours later dealing with the same thing over and over and over and over again doesn't help train you because there is no improvement. There are no ways to test new strategies because there is no control. Everything I've tried has failed. Every single thing. The longest I've ever survived in an encounter was by doing exactly what I described: mindlessly hitting whatever buttons I can to stay moving as fast as possible and at that point because I have to move my camera in order to aim my constant bullet jumps I'm incapable of tracking the target. The movement system in Warframe is one of the biggest reasons why I honestly, truly believe after weeks of grinding standing that Conclave is and will continue to be a failure.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Maniac523 said:

There's nothing to learn in all honesty.
I've played enough Conclave to have reached a conclusion at this point: there is no method to the movement. Every encounter with every experienced player has resulted in the exact same thing: spam bullet jump as soon as you touch the ground, double jump, roll, wall hop, aim glide for a fraction of a second, and somehow have nearly aimbot or sticky sight levels of aim to track and kill the person doing the exact same thing.

there is no control.

you've come to a conclusion, but unfortunately haven't picked up any hints on how to use Player Movement? there's so many tools available to you, many ways to get to rome.
RE: repeating one Parkour action over and over without rime or reason is not how to dodge Attacks while attacking back.
you have Terrain around you - use Parkour to take advantage of the Terrain.

 

there is incredible amounts of control. because you have so many tools available to you, and you can blend all of them together whether as full strings or partials and canceling.... there's so many Movements the Player can perform.

other games have Terrain adapted to the small number of things the Player can do. you can jump here, you can grapple here, you can hide here.
Warframe, has Player Movement that can be adapted to the Terrain. you can jump anywhere, you can grapple anywhere, you can hide anywhere - you can perform short jumps, long jumps, change your mind and go somewhere else, dodge out of a bad situation in any direction, string Parkour together basically forever without having to touch the ground (though touching the ground is still useful ofcourse)... and then attack in the midst of all of these Movements.

Warframes' Player Movement is all about control.
that's the entire point of it - absolute, complete, nigh infinitely flexible... control, over your Player Character.
and if you want to practice, you can do that... literally anywhere in the game. the same Movement Mechanics exist everywhere. you can practice Player Movement in any PvE Mission as well as while playing Conclave. you even are incentivized for it in PvE too - complex movement reduces the Accuracy of Enemies - you directly take less Damage in PvE for using advanced Movement.

 

yes there are some Mods which slant things in the favor of those that have and way from those that don't - though this is mainly in the area of Weapon Damage rather than Warframe Mods.
and yes, the Damage System is too complex for the check that Conclave can cash - Slash Damage is irrelevant and mixes of some Impact with heavy Puncture is the only thing desired - and yes i would very much prefer if Conclave simplified to either Shield/Health targeted Damage Types or to just no Damage Types - but it doesn't break everything, just makes some Weapons pointless and others objectively superior.

Edited April 3, 2018 by taiiat

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'm not a fan of PVP in any game anymore, but they deserve their rewards to be won through PVP. But if you wanted PVE players to play more PVP I'd add in matches that PVE players could have fun in like player controlled monsters, GTA's Jets vs Bikes and Tower vs Tower game types..tower vs tower was basically two teams with rocket launchers on separate building trying to kill each other with explosions since they couldn't get at each other. The normal death match will never appeal to the PVE base, but weird and fun PVP modes might. 

[armedpoop]

On 4/3/2018 at 3:01 AM, ArchPhaeton said:

Not really when the few users it has completely obliterate anyone trying it out. Same with lunaro (in the rare occasions i found people there) and while it's possible to git gud at this point I can't care enough to take that learning curve

Just because you get obliterated by the people that play it regularly doesnt mean its unbalanced. It just means that there are really good players out there. (even in Lunaro)

[Maniac523]

On 4/3/2018 at 6:25 PM, taiiat said:

Warframes' Player Movement is all about control.

If there was any way to use a reaction to disagree with someone here I'd certainly be using it right now. Preferable a facepalm.

When I said 'control' I mean there's no way to practice anything in conclave because you can't limit the amount of movement spam there is. It's always 100% all of the time. You have no control over how quickly everything happens. You can't analyze. You can't observe. You can't even think about your next movement. The amount of time it takes to recover from a slam attack is enough for someone else to kill you. That's not even exaggeration. It's like trying to learn how to play guitar by playing nothing but speed metal.

On 4/3/2018 at 6:25 PM, taiiat said:

and if you want to practice, you can do that... literally anywhere in the game

So in the rest of the game you've been fighting enemies that are spamming bullet jump, roll, wall hop, etc? I don't think you're playing Warframe buddy. I can spam mobility just as much as everyone else in conclave because that's mindless. Tracking people while doing that same thing is the problem. You can't practice that anywhere. You simply can't. It's not possible. Nothing else in the game moves like an enemy in conclave. That you didn't think about this while typing that sentence is confusing.

On 4/3/2018 at 3:56 PM, Maniac523 said:

There are no ways to test new strategies because there is no control.

Everything in your reply is based on misunderstanding this sentence. There's plenty of control over yourself. You can't control anything else though. All of the variables are in full effect at all times at full speed.

In the time it takes to read this sentence you've already been killed by the other player.

There's nothing to be learned from that. You missed every shot. You lost track of them after the first quarter second. There was nothing to learn from because it's impossible to observe.