Let's talk about the sillines that is ghouls' post-death cloud of stupid

[Artekkor]

Salt flows through my veins once again. Who came up with this?

First of all, nobody explains why on earth toxins and cold are not combined into viral but most important of all - WHY COLD PROC?

That thing is the most annoying thing in the game since the hooks of doom. Playing any warframe that doesn't have a proc immunity (Rhino, Oberon, anybody else i forgot?) or even worse - a MELEE warframe is the purest form of pain, frustruation and overall just a very bad player experience, considering that ghouls are dying left and right, AND ALSO constantly attempt to melee-rush you, which means you are BOUND to step into at least 1 of those clouds at some point.

I understand Eidolons being a no-go for the likes of Excalibur, since his sword cant reach the tendrils, but come on, i cant cut down some grineer mutant-uglies? Like, at all? With anything? Because i get punished for it by being slowed down to a crawl? In a, what's supposed to be, a fast-paced game? Literally 0 fans are being had. Rhino it is, i guess...

DE, i have to ask you to give it a 2nd thought.
The cold proc is one of the worst procs to experience in Warframe (i've blown up enough cryo barrels to know that).
Not only its extremely frustruating - but there is also no way to counter it besides playing proc-immune Warframes or avoiding close range combat all-together.
Was that the intent? To make fighting ghouls at close range the worst idea Tenno can have? Against, basically, grineer zombies - the best receivers of sharp sticks?

I need to know!

[craftfaster2]

You ever heard of dodge rolling? Works pretty good if you're trying to avoid the gas. Look man, you're pretty much the only one complaining about this, which means it's not the games problem. It is not supposed to be a breeze to kill the ghouls, it's supposed to be CHALLENGING. You aren't supposed to try to fight ghouls with melee, that's the challenge! If you don't like cold proc, well that's just to bad.

 

 

also GIT GUD

[DrBorris]

DE made it so Infested Volatile Runners does not explode when killed with a melee weapon, not sure why they do not follow that trend with ghouls.

 

And lol to the guy above me saying "git gud". The only way to be "gud" is to use a frame with some sort of status immunity, a cheesy long range melee, or just give up and shoot them. Ghouls are not a challenge, they are a cheesy gear-check. (And there was a lot of complaining when they first came out, most just gave up)

[VadiseReikaz]

It is a bit annoying, yes. If my memory is not failing me, there is a delay between killing them and actually them exploding into a cloud. And if there isnt, there should at least be that. Like when you kill a Nox, he makes noises and explodes afterwards as an indication.

[Chipputer]

They have a gimmick that leaves you with a cold and toxin cloud upon death. Instead of countering it via changing warframe or tactic, once again, we have a topic whining about it.

You people are the reason things like the Kuva Guardian get changed.

[Artekkor]

2 минуты назад, VadiseReikaz сказал:

It is a bit annoying, yes. If my memory is not failing me, there is a delay between killing them and actually them exploding into a cloud. And if there isnt, there should at least be that. Like when you kill a Nox, he makes noises and explodes afterwards as an indication.

Either delay is not there or its too short.

The cloud appears pretty much instantly for me: i kill the guy - i'm frozen now. There's no time to retaliate.
I, actually, would love if there was a skill-check of "can you get away before the freezing gas gets you" (a second or two) but its just not the case. Staying away or using status immune warframes is the only way to not have a bad time.

[----Legacy----]

If you're not willing to run with the proper tools, at least use the proper mods, in this case Rapid Resilience would help a lot.

[Tyrian3k]

I honestly find their random spawning while you're trying to farm on the plains more annoying than their clouds, which I find perfectly avoidable.

Granted, their toxin is likely to give players without self healing a headache, but the cold isn't really that big of a deal.

 

Also, when speaking of cold procs, I find the cryo barrels on Corpus tilesets with their insane range and proc duration to be far more annoying than the ghoul clouds.

[DoomFruit]

11 minutes ago, craftfaster2 said:

Look man, you're pretty much the only one complaining about this

No, I hate this as well. I just don't bother with the plains and as such don't encounter them.

Also, whichever idiot decided to infect every single corpus tileset with ice barrels (when initially, they were previously contained to europa) deserves to be sodomised with a rusty cactus. I hate those things. HATE. HATEHATEHATEHATE. Getting slowed to an absolute crawl for six seconds (and often from something hidden behind some scenery, or blending in seamlessly with static decorations, or simply by bullet jumping too close to something) is one of the most anti-fun things in this game.

[Artekkor]

9 минут назад, craftfaster2 сказал:

You ever heard of dodge rolling? Works pretty good if you're trying to avoid the gas. Look man, you're pretty much the only one complaining about this, which means it's not the games problem. It is not supposed to be a breeze to kill the ghouls, it's supposed to be CHALLENGING. You aren't supposed to try to fight ghouls with melee, that's the challenge! If you don't like cold proc, well that's just to bad.

 

 

also GIT GUD

There is a difference between difficulty and frustruation mechanic. I know a couple games that are difficult, but either not frustruating or frustruation comes from them being difficult.
What we have here is the opossite correlation - a frustruating mechanic that creates artifical difficulty, which is easily countered by simply picking one of VERY FEW status-immune warframes, reducing the player choice to exreme lows.

Again, on example of Eidolon - certain warframes not being fit for the job is fine. Key word: CERTAIN.
Ghouls are not just removing "certain" warframes from the equasion, they remove the entire playstyle of close range combat (not even necesseraly melee, but any close range weapon for that matter). Which is ultimately i see is an example of a fairly bad game design.

[Evultis]

in addition to the mentioned rapid resilience mod, there is also Arcane Warmth, which gives up to 80% chance of not getting the cold proc in the first place

[MirageKnight]

+1.

All that cold proc does is needlessly punish players that prefer melee combat or even players that were simply unfortunate enough to be too close to a Ghoul when they died.

Everything about Ghouls says "We'll punish you in CC" so ranged combat would seem to be the obvious solution...yet they also have abilities designed to rapidly close the gap between you and them, making ranged combat tricky.

I swear, these enemies were designed to troll us and test our collective patience.

9 minutes ago, craftfaster2 said:

Look man, you're pretty much the only one complaining about this, which means it's not the games problem.

No he isn't the only one. Also, questionable logic and false premise.

9 minutes ago, craftfaster2 said:

You aren't supposed to try to fight ghouls with melee, that's the challenge!

You're forgetting they have ways to very quickly get INTO melee with you. Also, that's not a challenge...it's just annoying and frustrating.

11 minutes ago, craftfaster2 said:

If you don't like cold proc, well that's just to bad.

Unsympathetic much?

12 minutes ago, craftfaster2 said:

also GIT GUD

And...that's the nail in the coffin for your argument.

[Artekkor]

6 минут назад, ----Legacy---- сказал:

If you're not willing to run with the proper tools, at least use the proper mods, in this case Rapid Resilience would help a lot.

Judging from the wiki page AND the fact that i don't have it - this mod is extremely hard to get, despite having an extremely situational nature.

Hell, i'm surprised i dont have it despite the fact that i murdered prod crewmen in thousands.

[Artekkor]

4 минуты назад, Antaeon сказал:

in addition to the mentioned rapid resilience mod, there is also Arcane Warmth, which gives up to 80% chance of not getting the cold proc in the first place

Sound good enough, but overshadowed by the fact that i'll have to murder about a thousand of eidolons before i'll be able to max it.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Just now, MirageKnight said:

+1.

All that cold proc does is needlessly punish players that prefer melee combat or even players that were simply unfortunate enough to be too close to a Ghoul when they died.

Everything about Ghouls says "We'll punish you in CC" so ranged combat would seem to be the obvious solution...yet they also have abilities designed to rapidly close the gap between you and them, making ranged combat tricky.

I swear, these enemies were designed to troll us and test our collective patience.

No he isn't the only one. Also, questionable logic and false premise.

You're forgetting they have ways to very quickly get INTO melee with you. Also, that's not a challenge...it's just annoying and frustrating.

Unsympathetic much?

And...that's the nail in the coffin for your argument.

At least you make it clear the problem is with the player. You can just shoot them. You can mod your warframe to virtually eliminate the duration of the weak status effect it applies. You can use a warframe that has status immunity. You can use a melee weapon that allows you to kill the enemy from slightly further away than hugging distance.

If the player is stuck on shanking enemies with a dagger when there are other, more optimal approaches to dealing with the enemy, that's the player's problem, not a design problem. Doubly so in a game that gives you two ranged weapon slots, a melee weapon slot (that includes long ranging weapons like polearms, whips, whip swords, heavy blades, and gunblades), a companion slot, and the ability to pick and tailor your warframe to the content at hand.

[AlphaPHENIX]

Am I the only one here that just pretends cold procs activate slow motion mode and doesn't mind?

[----Legacy----]

4 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Judging from the wiki page AND the fact that i don't have it - this mod is extremely hard to get, despite having an extremely situational nature.

Hell, i'm surprised i dont have it despite the fact that i murdered prod crewmen in thousands.

Transmutation can be a better option than just farming, even better if you start using simaris' transmute cores.

2 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Sound good enough, but overshadowed by the fact that i'll have to murder about a thousand of eidolons before i'll be able to max it.

There's a lot of people deeming the arcane status resistances as pointless, so i guess these shouldn't be hard nor expensive to get through trading.

[DiabolusUrsus]

The cold proc is dumb. As discussed in a previous thread, it doesn't make sense to create enemies that discourage melee when there aren't really any enemies that discourage ranged combat.

Oh, melee is currently the most powerful? It was the exact opposite for years with melee being a relative joke next to gun DPS, and there STILL weren't any enemies that "discouraged" gunplay.

There should be no need to encourage/discourage using a specific type of combat. Let the players use what they want; just make them go about it differently.

All that said, my biggest problem with Ghoul death clouds is that they don't seem to provide any energy when using Rage type mods. Unless they fixed that and didn't note it.

[Zyneris]

Wukong Defy Build.

That is all.

 

But seriously, I was surprised by the punishing effect of going full melee on these guys. However, I understand that clearly melee isn't the approach taken for these guys. So ignis wraith wins again :D

Either way, yeah. Part of the difficulty is being able to adapt on the fly. Again, I won't disagree that the mechanic is hella annoying, but overall it's manageable. Sorry your experience hasn't been the best with it. I hope it improves, Tenno!

[SenorClipClop]

22 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

There is a difference between difficulty and frustruation mechanic. I know a couple games that are difficult, but either not frustruating or frustruation comes from them being difficult

Care to enlighten us on those games? Examples are important when we're talking about what constitutes difficulty.

Are the Ghouls frustrating in their Death Cloud tactic? Yes. Does it yield difficulty? Maybe. What I gather from complaints about this and other things in the game (Sappers, Nullifiers) is how challenges are viewed in this game vs other games. Warframe gives the players incredible power and very little limitation. For many players, that's the draw of this game. But because we're so used to having all that power without limitations, the moment we are met with limitations -- don't stand here without shooting this ball (Sappers), powers don't work in this small space (Nullies), kill me at Range or roll away or you'll be slowed (Ghouls) -- those moments of limitation take away our incredibly powerful demi-god robot standard of operation and it tends to jar some players.

To juxtapose Warframe and its debatable difficulty, I look to the Dark Souls series. Dark Souls is considered difficult almost entirely because of the player character's limitations. You can only run so fast, you can only heal so many times (which requires a moment of time you can't use to attack or defend), you can only take so many hits from even the lowliest enemy, you can only swing your weapon a handful of times without rest. Falls will kill you, traps will kill you, and the only way to get help from others also renders you vulnerable to death by PvP invaders. Usually games seen as difficult, are difficult because the player is limited and must overcome obstacles larger than themselves.

However, in Warframe, the player character is easily far, far more powerful than any single unit in the entire game. Sk when an enemy imposes a limitation to weaken the character in hopes of providing a challenge (or at least a consideration), players may feel that the ploy is underhanded and "not real difficulty" because they are unbeatable and unweakenable in most all other situations.

 

Also, Nezha resists Status too. Saryn can shed for herself, and Titania can dispel them for the whole squad. Hydroid can do the same with an augment.

Edited April 5, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[NinthAria]

Not that it's not an annoyance, but the prospect of a 1-second cold proc isn't exactly a stake through the heart for melee gameplay. It's just...well, an annoyance.

[janjandark]

ok first off if me with my 15 fps can dodge roll the ghoul's death cloud u got 0 excuse not to

second off there are like 10 frames that have cc/status immunity if it's that big a problem maybe try one of em(trinity's link,inaros with the aug for scarab swarm,nezha's warding halo,etc to name a few you don't seem to know)

3th there are mods/arcanes that can solve the problem for u if you can't use em if it's that big  problem for u

lastly if they are so hard to keep at range then you are doing movement very wrong as far as fighting in general goes if u stay in one place long enough for a hook/tongue to grab and pull u,then probably u deserve to get killed that time u need to stay mobile you're a ninja(yea rhino is a 10 ton bodybuilder ninja deal with it) not a rock(atlas is a ninja rock he still counts as ninja)

edit:on the ghouls combat and skills(cloud included)they may seem like a challendge  to new players and people who have a hard time adapting while to people like me it took me 2 bountys to master fighting em to the point i can dance around em or kill em mid air(knock em in the air with air burst(yea i play zephir a lot) and the 1> melee air attack and the result is that i kill em and then gain distance so the cloud is a non factor in the air while i can get the loot from the ground

Edited April 5, 2018 by janjandark

[Zyneris]

1 minute ago, CptSpaceHerpes said:

so many adapt posts and very few asking if its even a fun mechanic

Not every mechanic is meant to be fun. The fun comes from being able to overcome said mechanic, throwing up your hands, and saying "I'M A GOD!". There are so many games with bs mechanics, but when I overcome them I get that nice drug rush of brain chemicals that allows me to feel good about myself and what I did. 

[Artekkor]

2 минуты назад, SenorClipClop сказал:

Care to enlighten us on those games? Examples are important when we're talking about what constitutes difficulty.

Well, you already named one - Dark Souls.
The other would be FURI which i'm currently playing on increased difficulty.
But they are the same game in the difficulty field: they both require high performance from the player in order to win - high reaction, decision making, yadi yada.
Then again... Neither of those games put you into a situation of being surrounded by a dozen of enemies, and when they do - those are usually extremely brutal moments.

 

5 минут назад, SenorClipClop сказал:

Warframe gives the players incredible power and very little limitation. For many players, that's the draw of this game. But because we're so used to having all that power without limitations, the moment we are met with limitations -- don't stand here without shooting this ball (Sappers), powers don't work in this small space (Nullies), kill me at Range or roll away or you'll be slowed (Ghouls) -- those moments of limitation take away our standard incredibly powerful demi-god robot standard of operation and it tends to jar some players.

Fair point. BUT neither nulifiers and sappers are as frustruating to deal with as the current ghouls.
Nulifiers take away your abilities, but not your guns.
Sappers are area-denial units and their area denial is countered by either killing them fast enough, by destroying the mines or by simply being mobile.

The cold proc that ghouls create is all of that TOGETHER. Cold proc slows down everything you do - move, reload, shoot, cast abilities... So technically they do what Nulifiers and Sappers do and then even more on top of that.

Nulifiers discourage abilities.
Sappers discourage stationarity (which is not something you usually do in warframe to begin with).
Ghouls discourage being anywhere near them ever, and as if some kind of cruel joke - their abilities are designed to allow them to get NEAR you as FAST as possible.

So you have an enemy near which you should never be, but in the same time those enemies are specifically good at getting near you.
They also come from all sides and in decent numbers. Hell, they don't even spawn until you get near them!
This is getting worse the more i think about it.

[Artekkor]

I should add: i'm fine with Ghouls doing things post-death.
I'm not fine with it being specifically a cold proc, which is THE worst proc to have to be proced on you in any given situation.