Zephyr Winds Of Harmony (Synergy Tweaks)

[SweetAnubis]

Ok as a long time zephyr fanboy since day one of her release i've played her in every type of mission out there. So far i've noticed she is spread across too many specialty niches yet hardly functions in any due to being spread too thin. Perhaps, the easiest ones to fit her into would be either tank role or CC role or perhaps a proper hybrid tank cc, doing so would only require a few minor tweaks to her current setup also adding more synergy between her abilities. So here's my list of further tweaks i'd like to see.

______________

____

Armor/Health: In most situations her turbulence serves just fine however in later game it's all but a wet paper ball. When you get to things such as sorties, Plague Star or other end game content she has next to no survivability. If anything sneaks through her turbulence she gets one shot-ed, and that happens very frequently late game. Not to mention the casting time leaves her wide open as well. As such i feel she would benefit from a boost to her defense and health, to reduce the frequency of being one shot-ed. This adjustment wouldn't need to be huge thanks to Turbulence but does still need a slight boost.

Turbulence: This is her primary source of survivability currently. She needs a reduction of cast time for this as even someone constantly paying perfect attention is left wide open for one shots for way to long.  Also allow for recast-ability while currently active. This would allow attentive players to reduce her vulnerability time further. No other changes need made to this ability as any other changes would make it to strong

Airburst: Ok neat ability but it's faster and more efficient to just use a melee weapon. This ability should have more cc capability. To add more ability synergy tie in with an active turbulence to add an extended knockdown period or even a stun period for enemies (much how inaros desiccation blinds enemies for basically ever, but perhaps a shorter amount of time). This would tie in with the projectile speed increase making airburst faster and more powerful by adding a stun to the ability.

Tornadoes: Ok so i wan't to love the changes so far but the biggest needed change has yet to happen. It's a very weak CC ability as is cause enemies just sit in it very briefly and get blown back out to start shooting at you again. Frankly they suck at sucking. Perhaps to explain a better synergy only boost the holding ability of the tornadoes when struck with airburst. They get bigger so why not hold enemies in and stop flinging them out as well when hit with airburst.

Tailwind/Divebomb: Control ability being able to choose when to stop for example take away the in use block for divebomb while tailwind is in use so we can end it as needed or allow us to jump out or roll out of tailwind at will. (Potential synergy: when turbulence active allows player to jump out of tailwind or recast tailwind and divebomb at will)

______________

____

Doing the above changes would change her from a one trick pony niche of oh hey i can fly across PoE and instead make her a useful CC mid range tank hybrid without changing who she is as a frame, and make her viable in far more end game content.

(please note im only asking minor changes not huge changes on stats. i want to see her in a more solid role capable of more end game content. i dont want her to become a face roller i like skill being required in frames still)

 

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by SweetAnubis
edited to make improvements to abilities synergized improvements with other abilities

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Primary Issue with Zephyr I'd like to see addressed is her controllability, as Tail Wind is usually overkill for anything but PoE and merging Dive Bomb with it had an unforeseen consequence: "Ability in use" for a few seconds after Tail Wind.

Dive Bomb worked as instant "I WANT TO STOP RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW" while current context-based approach is far less reliable and often times results in Zeph sliding on the ground face first for extended period of time.

Tail Wind might as well be a channelled ability that continuously propels Zephyr forward but doesn't take the control away from player, think Archwing but without ridiculous momentum that makes people spin in circles trying to stop.

Edited April 11, 2018 by JuicyButthurt

[--DSP--Jetstream]

Being able to recast hover would be nice..

like activating turbulence or each enemy hit with airburst increase hover duration, something like that.

 

[SweetAnubis]

54 minutes ago, JuicyButthurt said:

Primary Issue with Zephyr I'd like to see addressed is her controllability, as Tail Wind is usually overkill for anything but PoE and merging Dive Bomb with it had an unforeseen consequence: "Ability in use" for a few seconds after Tail Wind.

Dive Bomb worked as instant "I WANT TO STOP RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW" while current context-based approach is far less reliable and often times results in Zeph sliding on the ground face first for extended period of time.

Tail Wind might as well be a channelled ability that continuously propels Zephyr forward but doesn't take the control away from player, think Archwing but without ridiculous momentum that makes people spin in circles trying to stop.

thanks totally forgot to add that one added in now

[SweetAnubis]

i would appreciate any further feedback people have. zephyr is an amazing frame and deserves the proper finishing touches... and i could be wrong on some of my ideas and would love to hear more.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

imo she's got 3 ways to "survive" straight up via turbulence, cc from various sources, dive bomb, air burst, tornadoes..and her mobility.  She's very floaty and tail wind moves you pretty far pretty quickly.

Giving her more health/shields wouldn't make her less paper thin.  Armor is what helps with that the most and I don't think she needs more.  Cast time...eh.  I can see your point.  But why not just tail wind to cover and then pop it?  Considering how irrelevant strength pretty much is outside a funnel clouds build You could probably drop some damage for natural talent if you really need it.

They could potentially do that via air bursting your nado amps it giving it better succ.  But It seems to do a decent job imo.

Last point is the only one I can really get behind.  I think though instead of removing block they just let you roll to end tail wind early.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hey there, fellow fan and player of Zephyr since her release stopping in! (Coincidentally also one of the most well known rework and tweak thread writers for her on the forums... well, until the Prime and the changes came out and it became apparent that all my effort had been for nothing, because DEScott went with the people who shouted loudest, instead of with the people who debated the most consistently...)

But still... feedback.

On 11/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

Armor/Health

In my opinion, as Zephyr has shifted more to the mobile caster role with Airburst and the changes to Tornado, she needs no buffs here. My most common builds with her actually only either put on a (Primed if you have it) Vigor or a Gladiator Resolve. With as much Crowd Control as she has now, there's very little that can actually touch her.

On 11/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

Turbulence

While I agree that she should have the half second shaved off her casting time (the new animation added that, it's weird...) the buff of being able to recast while active might cause DE to do something silly with it to balance out the defence levels it can give.

On 11/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

Windburst Airburst

This has been a welcome change and upgrade to Zephyr's CC for me, the added advantage of it casting 50% less when cast in the air means I get an AoE short ragdoll for the cost of a 1 cast. While the directional knock-down when fired down a corridor is hilarious fun, if you're not jumping and blasting their feet with it, then you're missing out on the best part of the cast.

I have seen, in my time here, about 600 better abilities this could have been... but this is what we have and we should work with it.

The only buff I'd give it is the projectile speed. If it can't have a base-speed buff, then at least let it be affected by Jet Stream like all other projectiles are.

Another point to note is that the interaction with Tornado is... incredibly underwhelming. Doubling the size of a Tornado funnel doesn't actually double its range, or improve its damage, or speed or allow it to hold enemies longer... The only thing I've found it useful for is for turning Funnel Clouds generated funnels back into regular Tornado funnels.

On 11/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

Tornado

They're actually supposed to suck at sucking.

Crazy, right?

Why? Because if they held enemies for too long, this would be four roaming Vortex casts. Vortex, or Vauban's 4, picks up and holds, but is limited by being stuck in one place. While you can cast multiple of them, you cannot actually move them once cast. Tornado, on the other hand, is highly mobile and can even be directed at clumps of enemies faster than enemies can run (if you know the trick of it). The balance of CC has to be preserved.

However, if it was possible to upgrade the hold time by flinging Airburst into a Tornado funnel? Maybe upgrade that hold time to around 5-6 seconds? That would be something that balance would consider fair. Because you're not getting it out of the base ability, you're having to combo to get that, which means more energy cost and more functions because of it.

On 11/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

Tailwind/Divebomb

Simplest here is to allow the Hover to be cast in air, while mobile.

It makes no sense for a cast to charge up for as long as it does, to keep you insanely immobile for as long as it does, and then launch you lower than the base ability does, even if it does allow you to hover for a few seconds. You get a worse function for more time investment and I've actually stopped using it altogether, it slows me down completely unnecessarily. It also makes no sense to have a part of Tailwind, the ability that can launch Zephyr from one end of the Plains of Eidolon to the other as fast as an Archwing, would have a function that is purely locked in to being cast on the ground and immobile.

Mobile casting of the Hover.

So if you're on the ground, you can run around charging the hover up and it will still launch you and let you hover, even if you can't fire weapons at the same time, at least you're mobile during the cast. But in the air, you charge it up and releasing it stops you where you are, you hover for the same amount of time as the charge gives you normally.

Tap and Hold. Tap to jet, hold and release to brake.

On 11/04/2018 at 6:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

further tweaks i'd like to see

Minor things, quality of life.

Have the Aiming Reticle change when the angle is steep enough to Dive Bomb. Nothing much, but at least we get a hint as to where this line is. I've spent so much time grinding my beak in the dirt when a tiny shift in my aim created a Tailwind instead of a Dive Bomb that it's not even funny. And vice-versa, the times that I wanted to Tailwind down to a target, and ended up Dive Bombing instead... eesh.

An ending sound for Turbulence, the same way we have for lots of other self-buff abilities. I'm used to re-casting every 46 seconds with one build, 52 seconds with another, but if I want to test a new build or get a little distracted, I'd like to know that I get a cue when my buff is done so I can hit the button again.

Tornado currently spawns at location of cast, but then picks an enemy to spawn on in radius of the casting point. With a range build, this can mean the funnels can spawn as much as 50m away from where they were actually supposed to be. We know where we want to cast our ability, especially now that the CC on it has so drastically improved over the previous version, let us cast it where we want it, or at least within a more reasonable distance.

And... that would do it for me.

I'm really enjoying Zephyr's changes for the most part. I just hate the fact that what was so good about some of her abilities before has been ignored (Dive Bomb had so much potential and it's been shuffled away into Tailwind and has to settle for a damage buff instead of a functional buff...), and some of the abilities that have been improved have actually been made more difficult to use anywhere that has narrow corridors, low ceilings or just... not on the Plains. (For reference, 'not the plains' is about 99% of the game... until Venus pops up).

[Leyers_of_facade]

On 2018/4/11 at 1:47 AM, SweetAnubis said:

When you get to things such as sorties, Plague Star or other end game content she has next to no survivability.

Personally I disagree with this part of your statement. I do take her to fly around my sorties every now and then, and she doesn't get downed much.

In addition to turbulence, I suggest using these to help keep her alive
Mod: Aviator, agility drift
Arcanes: Arcane Guardian, Magus Elevate
they should give you quite a bit of survivability so long you are careful

but yes... recasting turbulence is definitely something I would like to see on her as well

[GLoRToR]

I have 2 suggestions for Zeph. One is that her 3 needs to obstruct your sight a lot less. Right now it's quite bothersome when you aim your gun. Second, I'd like Tornado to maybe become personal range around her, following her around or even enveloping her.

Edited April 12, 2018 by GLoRToR

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Survivability? Speak for yourself. Playing her with Cc generating melee (tempo for example.. i mean the zenistar is some obvious choice for her anyways) makes her defenses more or less inpenetrable.

If anything, i'd like to see some actuall interaction between her airburst and funnel cloud tornadoes. For them to grow in size only is the most pointless thing since cephalon ordis.

Edited April 12, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Caelward]

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Have the Aiming Reticle change when the angle is steep enough to Dive Bomb. Nothing much, but at least we get a hint as to where this line is. I've spent so much time grinding my beak in the dirt when a tiny shift in my aim created a Tailwind instead of a Dive Bomb that it's not even funny. And vice-versa, the times that I wanted to Tailwind down to a target, and ended up Dive Bombing instead... eesh.

I'm still all for replacing her regular melee smash with divebomb as a passive. No more problems due to vague control requirements and it eliminates the redundancy between divebomb and the melee smash every frame with a melee weapon already has. Another player also noted this would also eliminate the odd floaty air hang that happens occasionally when you try to melee smash while still rising with Zephyr.

There is already a precedent set for multiple passives on a frame, and standardizing the divebomb controls according to a built in technique that is already used for every frame in the game (except maybe Mesa part of the time) would sort out divebomb entirely. I think it would help player engagement with the frame so much.

[SweetAnubis]

ok loving the conversation so far.

 

so what im seeing in general is more synergy between abilities and more fluidity and control for the most part. im working on some further tweaks ill make later to further refine things based on the discussion here so far.

 

perhaps boosting her health is un needed after further consideration though i still feel a slightly higher armor def rating is needed for her

 

also im hoping i can get some answers on something. i know back in the day there was a lot of controversy about turbulance beiing better smaller because it left fewer openings between the streams is that not the case? is it just a solid bubble now?

[SweetAnubis]

ok edited my tweaks to add synergy to abilities and change some tweaked behaviors slightly. id love to know what everyone thinks of new suggested changes