Are we too powerful?

[Wings_Shakrun]

Well, this is not a post to say “Yeah, we’re to powerful”, this is a post to ask, why there are people that say that we are, indeed, to powerful? Why some players want nerfs? What is our point of view in all of this?

 

But what is our power in Warframe?

 

To correctly talk about power in this game, we have to talk about the possible power that we can reach, Rivens included. And why? Because you can’t underestimate a problem with a walk-away and don’t turn your head solution. If the power is actually too much, we can’t say “just don’t use that if you don’t like it”. Imagine that you go to a restaurant, and you ask for a salad, and the lettuce is rotten. If you complained about it, would the waiter tell to you “just don’t eat the lettuce if you don’t like it”? I think no.

 

Having said that, let’s get into the matter. I don’t going to say “we have too much power” or “we don’t have enough power”, I’m just going to count the facts. So, I’m going to analyse first the starchat. How do we feel with our maximum possible power in the starchat? (Obviously, using it) So, let’s bring the Maiming subject once more, because it’ll always be the hot topic. Just think a second about it. Have you ever had problems in 40- level missions running with a Maiming weapon, or a full modded meta weapon, or a weapon with a god roll Riven? Let’s make the same question with the Sorties, and the bosses, and the old raids, and kuva floods, and a laaarge etc… Probably, the answer will be no. Is that a problem? Well, I guess it depends on who see it.

 

What do this cause?

 

Like certain uncle said on time, with great power comes great responsibility. Every endgame player should be able to cheese almost any kind of mission in solo, even without Rivens or high tier weapons and frames for that activity. What I’m going to say, is not my point of view, I just want to understand what other people think, to be able to discuss them. And it’s not hot news. A lot of players hat being in a starchat mission to have some fun, and instead being “forced” to watch enemies being obliterated without doing anything. “Go solo then”. I don’t think that’s a valid point, everyone should be able to play the game as he wants, having a funny experience in the process. If one person wants to play the damn game in public, he shouldn’t be punished. If we can’t agree that for every person, putting “public” in the lobby isn’t a Russian roulette where you can get a totally boring scenario, we’re going nowhere. But I can’t offer a solution, I think no one cans, so.. Yeah, I like the way it is now, and nerfing things won’t change this anyway. I’m a dude, no more, but I’d like to beg, that if you dislike (or hate) people that complains about this, you should be more compressive, we’re a community, we should stay united.

 

And that brings me to this spot. I’m not going to talk about the difficulty/fun factor. I’ve not created this post for that, even if it’s probably the main concern. I’ve said all of this boring S#&$, just to say this single thing. This is not going for the big part of community (I want to think). But, when I’m in the forums, watching endgame-related posts, Maiming strike posts, I just watch the same over and over. Some people complains on how we are too powerful. Another people complains about the mighty nerf hammer, some of them complains about the people that wanted the nerf to happen, and the people that wanted the nerf to happen complains about the people that ruined their foun with it, in a circle, of… Hate, I would say?

 

I think is so stupid that power, in a game, causes toxicity. I know a lot of you don’t do this, maybe this post is so #*!%ing stupid and irrelevant, I don’t know. I just want to say, we’re all people trying to enjoy a game, if we’re going to start a debate, we should start from the respect and understanding of the other part. Maybe I went to beat around the bush a little much. I’d like to make on single question, and I’d like that you analyse it from all perspectives as possible (even the difficulty/fun factor that I didn't evolve here). Are we too powerful?

 

[Doomsknightmare]

Yes we are. Overkill in most missions. We need more Kuva flood and Sortie level challenges.

[pavlo555]

The problem is DE tries to have all the content relevant. By making everything use everything to craft. so we go on low level missions and, of course, wreck stuff.

We need strong enough content for our power and newbies could play their star chart.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

You want General Discussion section rather than feed back.

[SteamlordD]

I would say that most aspects of damage are unbalanced in some way, primarily in terms of enemy scaling, and that causes most of the issues.

It feels like there's virtually no difference between level 30 and level 80, where everything is trivial, but once you break 100 you need to have some kind of tank or CC option to keep your frail body from instantly exploding. Spreading some of that out, and making enemy health scale harder while armor scaling becomes weaker, would be nice, as well as maybe reducing enemy top-end damage in favor of more spawns, and more effective spawns.

If enemy scaling could be smoothed out, I think a lot of the problems could be fixed, but it would also be nice to see something done to bring all warframe damage powers more in line with each other.

[Gandergear]

DE is forcing an exponential power increase similar to what youd see in wow

DE is NOT giving us a fair challenge for this power as you might see in wow

[Gabbynaru]

So what if we are? It's fun to be overpowered. Power is what everyone desires, and the fact that Warframe gives us that power and then some, that's is only a plus in my book.

[Raspberry]

4 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

So what if we are? It's fun to be overpowered. Power is what everyone desires, and the fact that Warframe gives us that power and then some, that's is only a plus in my book.

There's being overpowered, then there's ant-squishing. Super-overkill 7-digit red crit damage on a lvl 8 Butcher on Everest, Earth (excavation) is totally fun and not boring /s

[kyori]

 

25 minutes ago, leviatan46 said:

Why some players want nerfs?

This is not because we are powerful, it is because other players kill all the enemies leaving them with nothing to kill, so butt-hurt and call DE to nerf things.

Back to the topic, it depends on which level you are playing at. If low level then of course we are too powerful but anything under lvl100 should be fine but still many tenno gets bleedout, so I would say we are not that powerful.

Well it has to depend on each tenno skill  too. Many that rely on playing with others might not learn how to survive well as opposed to those who mostly play solo etc etc

[Urlan]

No, wouldn't say we are too powerful both in presentation and in-setting so far. I mean, you can still be easily killed by enemies that boast superior stats, numbers, and versions of weapons while not needing ammo or energy for their abilities. By comparison, despite being considered elite super soldiers with our warframes in setting, we have definite power plateau, finite resources, and small numbers. When Lotus says that warframes are super powerful and the Tenno themselves one of the most powerful forces in the galaxy, this comes across as an informed ability as nothing in game has shown this to be true.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, Raspberry said:

There's being overpowered, then there's ant-squishing. Super-overkill 7-digit red crit damage on a lvl 8 Butcher on Everest, Earth (excavation) is totally fun and not boring /s

Hey, I personally enjoy that. There's no OP that's too OP for me.

[Unagi604]

Yes we're too powerful, but no one cares because this is primarily a co-op game. We don't want nerfs, we want new harder content.

[Raspberry]

7 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Hey, I personally enjoy that. There's no OP that's too OP for me.

I mean, it's totally fine to enjoy being complete overkill. But me, I'm not exactly fond of gaming while half-asleep. I want games to get me to think.

[MirageKnight]

If you glory hogs want challenge and enemies to be harder...you're going to have to be willing to give up some power to allow enemies to be a credible threat and not just animated piñatas filled with affinity and loot.

Seriously, in the past you all whined about the lack of challenge. So DE gave you challenge in the form of tougher enemies and harder scaling...you then proceeded to whine about how stupidly difficult that challenge is and you need more powerful stuff to deal with it...so DE caved in and gives you all even more cheese and power-creep...which brings you all back to whining about there being no real challenge and we're right back to the beginning. This is called a vicious cycle.

Like it or not, the only way to break that cycle is to, first and foremost, nerf our own potential to be able to trivialize content, and then work on making enemies more equal to us in terms of power and increasing their numbers to simply overwhelm us.

You know what? The situation we find ourselves in is your fault for demanding all the cheese and power-creep that currently permeates Warframe and at the same time it's also DE's fault for caving into your demands.

 

OP? Yes, we are too powerful in comparison to our enemies and controversial though this statement might be, we need to be reeled in a bit. At Level 40+, I want to be able to look at a mob of Grineer marching down on me as a very real threat to my continued existence, not an "all you can kill and loot" buffet.

[blazinvire]

I think this desire to nerf ourselves comes from a desire for challenge.

So many people think their challenge is going to come from content that goes well above level 100, when in reality, their tactics and methods aren't going to change even if the enemy level was theoretically infinite, because we can infinitely crowd control enemies and have access to instant-kill or infinitely scaling damage.
Is there truly fun to be had, doing the same things to the same enemies, but this time the enemy has 100x the health and damage, both of which are made completely irrelevant, thereby literally just forcing you to spend the same amount of time doing the exact same thing?

Buffs, nerfs and level of content is completely irrelevant.  The foundation of the game is going to need an overhaul.

Armour is bland, Shields are superfluous, Health is practically irrelevant, Crowd Control is completely unmoderated, Power usage is either completely inconsistent or incredibly tedious, and Weapons... well, just look at the term 'Mastery Fodder' and wonder how and why that was created.

[Checht]

Yes, we are too powerful, to the point where scaling up enemies to level 200+ isn't a big deal anymore. This is primarily due to our ability to spam large AoE CC abilities (Radial blind, Stomp, Bastille, etc.), stay permanently invisible (Ash, Loki, Ivara, Octavia) or invincible (Wukong, Rhino practically until very high levels). These skills just shut off enemy interaction with us. Unless these abilities are nerfed, it doesn't matter how smart or complex new enemies are introduced, they will just be turned into brain-dead dummies. It is due to these abilities that "difficulty" from Warframe can only come from enemies scaling up high enough in level such that you die from single shot the split second they are not CC-ed or you forgot to stay invisible.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Checht

[(PSN)vidare]

For the content we have. Yeah we are pretty op. 

If you would not use potatoes, rivens, arcanes and primed mod. Then it would probably be a ok challenge to do the content we have.

 

[Xolgys]

the issue is not available options and hence power, the issue is and has been since a while the content thats challenging but not too repetitive. naturally when u progress and get more "power" some things arent challenging anymore.

[Voltage]

43 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

If you glory hogs want challenge and enemies to be harder...you're going to have to be willing to give up some power to allow enemies to be a credible threat and not just animated piñatas filled with affinity and loot.

Seriously, in the past you all whined about the lack of challenge. So DE gave you challenge in the form of tougher enemies and harder scaling...you then proceeded to whine about how stupidly difficult that challenge is and you need more powerful stuff to deal with it...so DE caved in and gives you all even more cheese and power-creep...which brings you all back to whining about there being no real challenge and we're right back to the beginning. This is called a vicious cycle.

Like it or not, the only way to break that cycle is to, first and foremost, nerf our own potential to be able to trivialize content, and then work on making enemies more equal to us in terms of power and increasing their numbers to simply overwhelm us.

You know what? The situation we find ourselves in is your fault for demanding all the cheese and power-creep that currently permeates Warframe and at the same time it's also DE's fault for caving into your demands.

 

OP? Yes, we are too powerful in comparison to our enemies and controversial though this statement might be, we need to be reeled in a bit. At Level 40+, I want to be able to look at a mob of Grineer marching down on me as a very real threat to my continued existence, not an "all you can kill and loot" buffet.

Not everyone enjoys handicapping themselves because proper challenge is not created. Give us content that makes us take risks, not more re-skinned missions that make me want to fall asleep after I try it a few times (if at all).

Why don't we stop this nerfing mentality and look content in the eye for what it is. 99.9% of this game caters to mid tier players. Endless missions? More rewarding to restart. Plains of Eidolon? A snooze-fest for anyone over MR 15. Fissures? A complete chore when you do not run Exterminate/Capture, and useless boosters in endless fissures. Why don't we use existing content to have players push themselves and become more creative. There is a 10 hour Kuva Survival attempt coming up this weekend on Twitch. Maiming Strike on its own isn't going to let you get that 10 hour mark. Sure these types of gear are great, but we need more team composition game modes. Raids attempted this and people got annoyed that it required competent players. Some people want content that requires thinking before strolling through the mission. Sorties do not achieve this, Kuva does not achieve this, and Raids were removed because they achieved this.

The "problem" here is that most players hate being challenged. They want 6 revives per mission, overpowered mass killing machines, and little to no effort for rewards. We need endgame content desperately that strives to push players. If something like Void Onslaught doesn't incentive pushing players, the game mode will die just like Rathuum.

Edited April 12, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[NamingPolicyViolation]

I have been playing from January or so.

From my experience as free to play

1) you get 3-4 months of solid gameplay/farming until it gets boring and repetitive (I don't mind leveling weapons, frames)

2) I have no maiming strike (I have no slide macros), yet I can have 10% crit melee red crit 24/7 making anything below sortie a sneezefest, too easy. Who needs status?

3) 99% of sorties are easy and boring, can be done by 1 person, 3 can afk

4) everything is made so easy that I spend my time watching tv shows or movies with wife while my G15 macro for 5 to 50 mins

5) there is zero reason to buy plat, I have almost everything maxed, close to r25 and 10k+ in plat. How does DE make money is beyond me.

6) triolysts are hard for eyes, not coordination or skill. It's a great idea, but horrible visuals. Once you get past visuals, it's just another sneeze

7) I have never used rivens on my weapons. I would rather put my head into microwave to sit in same mission for 2 hours to actually start paying attention besides my G15 macro

8) there is no content, ignoring 2+ hour endless, that can't be made so easy with gear, that it's just not fun. I guess I should try PVP, since PVE offers nothing, but leveling gear.

This comes from 38 with carpal tunnel. This game is probably hard for my father and my son, but not for me. After r25 I'll probably go play something else :(

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by NamingPolicyViolation

[Checht]

3 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Not everyone enjoys handicapping themselves because proper challenge is not created. Give us content that makes us take risks, not more re-skinned missions that make me want to fall asleep after I try it a few times (if at all).

Why don't we stop this nerfing mentality and look content in the eye for what it is. 99.9% of this game caters to mid tier players.

I don't see how you can introduce challenge into Warframe without nerfs at the current state. Currently there's almost nothing in game that cannot be solved with

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

or

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, Checht said:

I don't see how you can introduce challenge into Warframe without nerfs at the current state. Currently there's almost nothing in game that cannot be solved with

if (see unstunned enemy)

press [insert CC button]

end

or

if (not invisible)

press [insert invisible button]

end

Do Arc Traps and Napalm care if you are invisible? Nope. Do Nullifiers care when you hit CC? Nope. Sure, both my examples can be annoying for some, but it is not impossible to create missions where specific enemies/environment hazards cannot be stun-locked, objectives are not killing constantly, and being invisible does not make it any easier. Dumbing down the game with a band aid instead of improving content or providing meaningful challenge is sad and lazy. Kuva Endless had a perfect opportunity for players who have everything in the game to push their limits to squeeze more out of their mission. This failed because it is a waste of time to go farther than ~30 minutes when you restart and get the same benefit.

Edited April 12, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[(XBOX)DeathRogueTroll]

This is probs gonna be lost in a vast sea of replies, ranging between "yes we are" and "no, DE just sucks at making content for endgame players", but here is how I view things. As a whole, we are wicked overpowered, and this isn't DEs fault, it's ours. It's been way too long since godframers have been put in our place, so instead of seeking out challenges on our own (like long term endless missions without the cheese frames), we've taken to bullying both DE and newer players on the forums. I cannot tell you the amount of pure toxicity I have seen out of all these proclaimed "3/4/5 year veterans" who think that because they've been here so long, that their opinion matters more than anyone else's. DE needs to put "endgame"rs in their place. The term "endgame" implies a game will end, or has. I don't like that term, I see Warframe as a child, doing better than it's infantile state of 2 years ago, still so much more to grow. 

 

TL:DR version: yes, we are, and we need to be knocked down a peg, or seven.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, pavlo555 said:

The problem is DE tries to have all the content relevant. By making everything use everything to craft. so we go on low level missions and, of course, wreck stuff.

We need strong enough content for our power and newbies could play their star chart.

The Tau Starchart...here? HERE THERE BE MONSTERS.

[Checht]

24 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Do Arc Traps and Napalm care if you are invisible? Nope. Do Nullifiers care when you hit CC? Nope. Sure, both my examples can be annoying for some, but it is not impossible to create missions where specific enemies/environment hazards cannot be stun-locked, objectives are not killing constantly, and being invisible does not make it any easier. Dumbing down the game with a band aid instead of improving content or providing meaningful challenge is sad and lazy. Kuva Endless had a perfect opportunity for players who have everything in the game to push their limits to squeeze more out of their mission. This failed because it is a waste of time to go farther than ~30 minutes when you restart and get the same benefit.

Arc traps only matters if you're blind enough to run into them while you're invis. You can jump out of a Napalm's AoE with a single bullet jump, and the Napalm wouldn't even be aiming at you if you're invisible. Yes, nullifiers are good countermeasures against CC (or any abilities), are you suggesting increasing spawn rate of nullifiers then? Currently it isn't high enough to counter CC cheese tactics.

Nerfing does not equate to dumbing down the game. Nerfing in-game abilites increases the skillcap for the person playing the game. Search for any Warframe gameplay and you'd mostly see players playing like standard COD shooter with the help of CC abilities, CC then right-click + shoot. It's rare to find anyone still using the movement mechanics, dodging bullets, jumping and shooting anymore.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Checht