Verbal abuse and Vay Hek [Plague Star]

[Edgarhighman]

Listen to this 120 times an hour: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/8/8c/HekPlagueStarP3-1.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20171209195831

 

This may sound weird as a title, but, I really thought I should share it. I like warframe, I come here to de-stress. I play games to get away from the things in life after work/school/my kids that I have no control over. TLDR I think vay hek is hilarious comedic relief. But on this new Plague star mission (which I enjoy repetitively) he has this phrase where he repeats many times that "you fail".

 

To the point... For people (and there's many :'( ) who have endured verbal/mental abuse or harassment for any periods of weeks, months, or years, whether from parents, family members, spouses or an abusive relationship, hearing this negative comment over and over affects how a person thinks, and feels (moreso to those who have had such an experience, because their brain is trained to be alerted to it). This is scientifically proven. As a man thinks in his heart so shall he become, law of attraction, meditation, chanting, there was a report of locker room verbal abuse on Miami Dolphins and that "But even the largest, strongest and fleetest person may be driven to despair by bullying, taunting and constant insults." It's real, it happens, it does affect people. He says it more than once in the voice acting line, and he repeats that line fairly often.

 

I know you guys meant NO HARM, and that for many this means nothing, but in reality, doing this mission over and over does have an affect on people. "Just turn off X sound" right? I'd rather not have to modify my entire gaming experience because of one repeated negative phrase.

 

"Oh just toughen up" Depression, verbal abuse, etc. are not things that you "toughen up" against. The way the brain learns, is trained, and un-learns these things is chemical hardware. Your brain is like a biological circuit. Just like the hardware in your computer, it cannot change itself without assistance, it becomes permanent until re-worked on (aka medication, faith, psychotherapy, positive meditation etc.)

 

As a once in a while mission, it wouldn't be a problem, but as we're meant to repeatedly grind and re-do this mission to unlock rewards and stock up on limited event goodies it  can become unintentionally harmful. I noticed within the first few hours of grinding the event, and took a break for 5-ish days of it, but upon returning to the event I figured I'd post this before something so small could/would be used again and end up affecting people.

 

This is not a joke, nor a "consideration" but a real thing. Most people affected by it wouldn't speak up for fear of being made known to have gone through some form of abuse. So I'd like to share this, with the little insight I have, that this is a legitimate concern that I do believe DE would care about to not overlook. Thanks guys for a great game.

 

Edit: I usually make all my posts on reddit.com/r/warframe, but I posted this on the official forums since I assume this is your straight source. Reddit may have some valid replies, but to most of the community they'd probably just make a mockery of it. I hope you guys actually get this in a timely manner for a small rework before the next plague star event and with thought of future dialogues. Thanks again DE.

 

Edit 2: For those who are unaware or don't have understanding in this area, the impact of this effect is moderate to severe due to the way abuse victims process negative information.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Edgarhighman
small addition.

[taiiat]

you forget, the part where Vay Hek says you will fail, and yet you win every single time, a few minutes after he says it. with great disbelief mind you, he's absolutely astounded that the Tenno didn't fail.

 

on another note i grew up in a very hostile and whatever other adjectives environment - the exact target environment.
what came from it was having skin thicker than plate steel.

[bronzebonobo]

You could just put some music on and cut the dialogue volume down to a minimal level. Problem fixed. 

[Edgarhighman]

3 minutes ago, bronzebonobo said:

You could just put some music on and cut the dialogue volume down to a minimal level. Problem fixed. 

But I'll miss konzu "Just bonk 'em on the head, ay tenno?", and I wouldn't hear the game :'( It's hard enough to see enemies over the tall grass, so I rely on audio very often too.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Edgarhighman

[Sean]

When it comes down to it, this really isn't an issue.

It is impossible to avoid anything and everything that could possibly trigger a negative reaction from all types of people, so then it comes down to where is the line drawn?

If this is changed, then what's next? Once something extremely minor as this goes, then it's a slippery slope, because there's quite a few things in the game people could be offended by (regardless of how small).

 

As @bronzebonobo said, just put some music on if it bothers you that much, or just learn to tune out Vay Hek. I barely pay attention to what's said in the game after hearing it for the thousandth time, basically white noise at this point.

 

 

Editing my post in response to your "Edit2".

If a person is bothered so much by something like a line in a video game, they can just shut off the dialogue. As I mentioned here, there's far more types of people with varying backgrounds, so it's impossible to ensure no one gets triggered.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Sean

[Edgarhighman]

Just now, Sean said:

When it comes down to it, this really isn't an issue.

It is impossible to avoid anything and everything that could possibly trigger a negative reaction from all types of people, so then it comes down to where is the line drawn?

If this is changed, then what's next? Once something extremely minor as this goes, then it's a slippery slope, because there's quite a few things in the game people could be offended by (regardless of how small).

 

As @bronzebonobo said, just put some music on if it bothers you that much, or just learn to tune out Vay Hek. I barely pay attention to what's said in the game after hearing it for the thousandth time, basically white noise at this point.

This here, is a wrong response, being white noise to you, you're circumstantially lucky. But as a real situation, I guarantee this affects thousands. As for it being "small" I've played warframe since Closed beta, years and years, and I've never encountered this before. It's a very specific issue with a very specific affect. To have something so negative, repeated more than once in a voice line and to have that line repeated over and over. To the people it affects they are not chemically or biologically "able" to turn it off. Like epilepsy.

 

For a game that puts it's hand in anti-cancer harmony ribbons, men's awareness mustaches and other charitable health-related things, this isn't a "look over." DE did not intend any wrong, nor am I saying they did. What is happening is an actual affect to an actual large number of people. It was unintended, but it still does what it does. And to those people, they can't "turn it off".

 

There's games and movies I won't play, books I won't read, and things I won't let my children watch/read. It's not always the content, but the effect of the content that is more harmful than good. The way the brain processes and interacts with this information, it's just one of those things. We're hardwired. Doesn't change if you "want/will/try" it to.

[nerfinator6]

I got bullied as a kid and I don't have a single problem with it.

[Edgarhighman]

1 minute ago, nerfinator6 said:

I got bullied as a kid and I don't have a single problem with it.

So did I, not the same issue being spoken of here though.

[Sean]

3 minutes ago, Edgarhighman said:

This here, is a wrong response, being white noise to you, you're circumstantially lucky. But as a real situation, I guarantee this affects thousands. As for it being "small" I've played warframe since Closed beta, years and years, and I've never encountered this before. It's a very specific issue with a very specific affect. To have something so negative, repeated more than once in a voice line and to have that line repeated over and over. To the people it affects they are not chemically or biologically "able" to turn it off. Like epilepsy.

 

For a game that puts it's hand in anti-cancer harmony ribbons, men's awareness mustaches and other charitable health-related things, this isn't a "look over." DE did not intend any wrong, nor am I saying they did. What is happening is an actual affect to an actual large number of people. It was unintended, but it still does what it does. And to those people, they can't "turn it off".

 

There's games and movies I won't play, books I won't read, and things I won't let my children watch/read. It's not always the content, but the effect of the content that is more harmful than good. The way the brain processes and interacts with this information, it's just one of those things. We're hardwired. Doesn't change if you "want/will/try" it to.

 

What about the myriad of things in the game that are also deemed offensive, but is also white noise to you?

There's cannibalism, cloning, blood/gore, guns, and so many other things that people can/will find offensive. There's even people that are offended at specific factions in the game. Just because all of that is white noise to you, doesn't make it less so to others. Vay Hek insults, that's what he does and has done, it's in a lot of his dialogue and there's even "Mission Fail" screens. This is making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

...which again is all incredibly minor in the grand scheme of things, and if one changes then it's a slippery slope.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Sean

[Dwolfknight]

Serious talk, if that line seriously affected you that much, it means you have a lot of issues that you need to become open too, look for a therapist, if you don't have the money for one like me then look for someone you trust, like your mother or sister, someone that would understand, if even that is not a possibility, well, bartenders are like therapists but cheaper, and they have encountered a lot of messed up people too.

[Edgarhighman]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

 

What about the myriad of things in the game that are also deemed offensive, but is also white noise to you?

There's cannibalism, cloning, blood/gore, guns, and so many other things that people can/will find offensive. There's even people that are offended at specific factions in the game. Just because all of that is white noise to you, doesn't make it less so to others.

 

...which again is all incredibly minor in the grand scheme of things, and if one changes then it's a slippery slope.

None of those things you mentioned are auditory nor do they affect in the same manner brought up in this issue.  What you have mentioned is visual/conscience/political related.

[Sean]

1 minute ago, Edgarhighman said:

None of those things you mentioned are auditory nor do they affect in the same manner brought up in this issue.  What you have mentioned is visual/conscience/political related.

 

They don't affect YOU, but that doesn't mean they don't affect others.

[Edgarhighman]

Just now, Sean said:

 

They don't affect YOU, but that doesn't mean they don't affect others.

The manner of their affect and their interaction is not relevant to the issue and it's manner of effect that I have brought up.

[Sean]

Just now, Edgarhighman said:

The manner of their affect and their interaction is not relevant to the issue and it's manner of effect that I have brought up.

 

It actually is relevant.

It seems that you are focusing on this line because YOU are having an issue with it, but again, what about other people with other varying issues with other content in the game? It doesn't seem others have had an issue with this, so it does seem something more being an issue because YOU find it offensive.

If something like a line by Vay Hek (who is supposed to be an egotistical scumbag) is changed to please you, then what about the next person who finds something else offensive? Once we cross that line for something incredibly minor, then it's easy to keep following down that.

[Edgarhighman]

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

 

It actually is relevant.

It seems that you are focusing on this line because YOU are having an issue with it, but again, what about other people with other varying issues with other content in the game? It doesn't seem others have had an issue with this, so it does seem something more being an issue because YOU find it offensive.

If something like a line by Vay Hek (who is supposed to be an egotistical scumbag) is changed to please you, then what about the next person who finds something else offensive? Once we cross that line for something incredibly minor, then it's easy to keep following down that.

You're mistaking a supposed "my desire for a change to please me" with an actual psychological concern that is scientifically backed. This isn't about pleasing or desire, at all, in any way, shape, or form. Do not try and manipulate the accuracy and intent of my post.

 

There is lead in Flint Michigan's water. People are being poisoned. They do not have a say in the matter (speaking isn't cleaning their water supply). Trying to make up any sort of reasoning or excuses will not change the condition of their water. This line, it's repeated negative connotation and it's affect on those who have endured verbal abuse will be affected in such a manner and all your reasoning will not change that @Sean.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Edgarhighman

[Amazerath]

45 minutes ago, Edgarhighman said:

I know you guys meant NO HARM, and that for many this means nothing, but in reality, doing this mission over and over does have an affect on people. "Just turn off X sound" right? I'd rather not have to modify my entire gaming experience because of one repeated negative phrase.

If you don't want to modify your experience in order to solve your problem then what other solution do you propose that doesn't involve modifying everyone else's experience?

[sh00chu]

It's not often I get to watch a slippery slope fallacy unfold right before my very eyes. Thanks for the masterclass @Sean. @Edgarhighman, I get what you're saying, and agree with you. Unfortunately I think you are wasting your time here. In spite of the fact that the WF community is one of, if not the, absolute best of any game I have ever played, it is often sorely lacking in empathy with regards to issues of mental health. Although I guess the same could be said of society in general, so there's that. 

 

[Edgarhighman]

2 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

If you don't want to modify your experience in order to solve your problem then what other solution do you propose that doesn't involve modifying everyone else's experience?

Personally, I'd just not play the event. My loss. Just as I took a 5 day break, I'd have to take a permanent one.

[Sean]

4 minutes ago, Edgarhighman said:

You're mistaking a supposed "my desire for a change to please me" with an actual psychological concern that is scientifically backed. This isn't about pleasing or desire, at all, in any way, shape, or form. Do not try and manipulate the accuracy and intent of my post.

Except that's what I'm getting when I read your topic and posts, even if you don't realize it.

 

2 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

It's not often I get to watch a slippery slope fallacy unfold right before my very eyes. Thanks for the masterclass @Sean. @Edgarhighman, I get what you're saying, and agree with you. Unfortunately I think you are wasting your time here. In spite of the fact that the WF community is one of, if not the, absolute best of any game I have ever played, it is often sorely lacking in empathy with regards to issues of mental health. Although I guess the same could be said of society in general, so there's that. 

 

 

Not a lack of empathy, if a line in a video game is causing a person this much stress, then nothing will will solve it by changing something in said game, there's more at work there if that is the case. There can be numerous other areas that can affect people similarly, I've seen people actually BE upset at the in-game factions and find offense with them.

There is no way a game can solve this for everyone, a person has to look inward and find the root and attempt to address that instead of asking the world to change for them.

[Edgarhighman]

10 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

It's not often I get to watch a slippery slope fallacy unfold right before my very eyes. Thanks for the masterclass @Sean. @Edgarhighman, I get what you're saying, and agree with you. Unfortunately I think you are wasting your time here. In spite of the fact that the WF community is one of, if not the, absolute best of any game I have ever played, it is often sorely lacking in empathy with regards to issues of mental health. Although I guess the same could be said of society in general, so there's that. 

 

As I've stated, DE has a hand in health related issues. Tennobaum and the Children's Health Foundation, National Breast Cancer Foundation, the Harmony Ribbon supporting Leukemia awareness, Extralife (CMN), Mustache Movember and probably more. They have their hand in this already. This particular line will not break lore or continuity or pretty much anything if modified or removed. As DE cares, I do not believe they would overlook this legitimate health issue.

 

4 minutes ago, Sean said:

Except that's what I'm getting when I read your topic and posts, even if you don't realize it.

 

You're interpretation is not my message or it's intent. Can't help you there.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Edgarhighman

[Amazerath]

7 minutes ago, Edgarhighman said:

Personally, I'd just not play the event. My loss. Just as I took a 5 day break, I'd have to take a permanent one.

I'm not sure I understand why you would need to take a permanent break from the game if the event is only temporary. Maybe it would be easier to understand if you explained what the purpose of this thread is. Your opening post explains a problem but since you don't suggest anything or ask for anything I can't really tell if you're just raising awareness about the issue or actually hoping for something to change.

[Edgarhighman]

4 minutes ago, Amazerath said:

I'm not sure I understand why you would need to take a permanent break from the game if the event is only temporary. Maybe it would be easier to understand if you explained what the purpose of this thread is. Your opening post explains a problem but since you don't suggest anything or ask for anything I can't really tell if you're just raising awareness about the issue or actually hoping for something to change.

Just "this" event, not the game :P Yes, I did not "clearly ask or suggest" for a change and Yes this is about raising awareness of a concern that affects people. I didn't want to offer a change or modification because that would be up to them in how they implement anything they'd do if they did!

Edited April 14, 2018 by Edgarhighman

[sh00chu]

1 minute ago, Edgarhighman said:

As I've stated, DE has a hand in health related issues. Tennobaum and the Children's Health Foundation, National Breast Cancer Foundation, the Harmony Ribbon supporting Leukemia awareness, Mustache Movember and probably more. They have their hand in this already. This particular line will not break lore or continuity or pretty much anything if modified or removed. As DE cares, I do not believe they would overlook this legitimate health issue.

I think you misunderstood what was meaning when I referred to the community. I wasn't referencing DE at all. If anything they go above and beyond what any other developer even thinks of doing. The lack of empathy comes from the player base that tends to inhabit the forums. Exhibit A: This thread. As you just said, the removal or alteration of the particular line you are talking about would not negatively impact the game in any way. I would go so far to say that if it were removed tomorrow, the only people that would notice are the ones in this thread, and the very people you are aiming to protect by making this post in the first place.

[Edgarhighman]

51 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

I think you misunderstood what was meaning when I referred to the community. I wasn't referencing DE at all. If anything they go above and beyond what any other developer even thinks of doing. The lack of empathy comes from the player base that tends to inhabit the forums. Exhibit A: This thread. As you just said, the removal or alteration of the particular line you are talking about would not negatively impact the game in any way. I would go so far to say that if it were removed tomorrow, the only people that would notice are the ones in this thread, and the very people you are aiming to protect by making this post in the first place.

Thanks man, that is very clear the way you've output that. It's not like I'm asking to have "something I don't like" such as an unpleasant sound, or visually unappealing or personal superficial thing modified "to my liking"

 

I'm bringing a legitimate psychological/medical issue that affects a lot of people in a manner they cannot control into view.

 

It's more along the lines of him saying "you try to protect these rats, but you fail, and fail" the end of the sentence being open/ambiguous even though it was predicated by it's intent is received differently by those who are affected.due to the changes in their brain from abuse. If he said "You will fail to protect these rats" the affected persons would not receive it in the harmful manner... even being aware of the predisposed intent of his statement, the way an affected persons brain receives the message is still the same :'(

Edited April 14, 2018 by Edgarhighman

[Amazerath]

31 minutes ago, Edgarhighman said:

Just "this" event, not the game :P Yes, I did not "clearly ask or suggest" for a change and Yes this is about raising awareness of a concern that affects people. I didn't want to offer a change or modification because that would be up to them in how they implement anything they'd do if they did!

I understand. But I don't think there's much they can do about it. Asking them to try to avoid making characters pound you with negativity is one thing. But if you're expecting them to transform a character that is deliberately abusive into a character that's not abusive then I don't know.

If there was absolutely nothing you could do in order to avoid this problem then it would be different. But you have options. Yes, they're crappy options but I think you can understand that changing the character would also be crappy. So unless DE is willing to add an audio option that's something like "Turn negative character comments off" I don't know what else can be done.