Why the Scythe Changes?

[Dod-Regnbue]

Right, apparently I am in the minority here, but I honestly do not believe Scythes need the current proposed changes. 
I understand that they are not the most loved weapon type in the game and DE aim to changes this, but this does not mean that they should be converted to a two handed weapon and/or utilise Heavy Blade Stances. 
A slight buff to some of the the stats would be appreciated, but that is literally all they would need. 
As someone who likes to sit in Survivals for as long as possible, and my favourite melee weapon being Scythes, you can guess what I use the majority of the time. 
While everyone else was getting hyped over Galatine Prime, I was optimising my Reaper Prime to out do it. Again I do realise that I am the minority here, so I am not trying to say "Well I am the only one that likes them so they can;t be changed". I am merely trying to say, perhaps before people get too excited over the possible changes, maybe retry these weapons. 
A few tips for you, Doing a 3 Element build on Caustacyst - Corrosive, Radiation, Viral, and using Stalking Fan as your stance, in conjunction with Condition Overload, You have given yourself a pretty consistent 240% Damage increase, 1 for each Element, and Stalking Fan Procs Impact a lot. It also carries momentum, so combos are very difficult to interrupt, nearly making you immune to Enemy CC, knock back, knock down.   
From here, I can push this weapon far beyond what pretty anyone would expect a Scythe to go. It still only takes two or three hit to kill  enemies in Mot after 3 hours. 
Reaper Prime is similar in this situation as well. Instead go for a Viral / Slash - Condition Overload and Stalking Fan. Same again with Ether Reaper, just slightly less. 
Hate is an interesting one, Due to the Animation Mechanics, You can skip using Attack Speed mods, and just add in more DAMAGE!!!! 
Anku is actually amazingly powerful, due to being Puncture based, this against Armour with a similar Set up, using corrosive and Condition Overload, this will rinse high armour enemies. 

Maybe it is just me, and that I enjoy spending hours in Survivals, but in truth, I would say that Scythes are actually among the most, if not, the most powerful weapon class in the game when used in this manner. Again, this is just my opinion, just trying to throw a few things out there. 

Now, For my idea, Mechanically, please leave the current Scythes as they are. Honestly, they are absolutely great. Maybe in stead Create a New Class, Heavy Scythe. These can be two handed, these can use the Heavy Blade Stance, these can be the way in which Scythes "Find" their way back into the communities heart. As for the current Scythes, please leave them alone. Please! 

[Senketsu_]

Because Scythes are two handed weapons. My brother loves scythes but hates them and doesn't use them in WF because they arent actual scythes. What the scythes are now are what sickles and kamas are irl. a scythes is pretty much a polearm. and no scythes arent even close to the most powerful weapon class. the are mid tier at best. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by Senketsu_

[NightmareT12]

1 minute ago, Senketsu_ said:

Becasue Scythes are two handed weapons. My brother loves scythes but hates them and doesnt use them in WF becasue they arent actual scythes. What the scythes are now are what sickles and kamas are irl. a scythes is prety much a polearm.

Or we can create proper two handed scythes in a new weapon category with new animations and idles and all that bring the "reaper" feel instead of destroying a weapon class some people enjoy and destroy the art assets by making them larger unlike they are intended, all while fusing them in the Heavy Blade category and making them lose any identity currently had.

[peterc3]

13 minutes ago, Dod-Regnbue said:

A slight buff to some of the the stats would be appreciated, but that is literally all they would need. 

The stances themselves are not great.

A slight buff to some stats don't make combos not sub-par.

14 minutes ago, Dod-Regnbue said:

As for the current Scythes, please leave them alone. Please!

People will continue to not use them. That's not an option to DE.

[Arthera]

I hope they change it. Its not about the damage. I use the hate with a riven and it shreds enemies. The problem for me is that the stances feel really weird. The best solution is probably to keep the scythe stances but when you equip the 2 handed stance it converts to a 2-handed scythe. This way there is no negative side to the change.

[Senketsu_]

5 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Or we can create proper two handed scythes in a new weapon category with new animations and idles and all that bring the "reaper" feel instead of destroying a weapon class some people enjoy and destroy the art assets by making them larger unlike they are intended, all while fusing them in the Heavy Blade category and making them lose any identity currently had.

they arent destroying the assets by making them larger. making a 3D model larger dosnt do anything to textures and the such. its not like increasing the resolution on a Photoshop image. Also very few people use them any way. I would be more willing to use them if they were simply two handed. 

[MissAnnabelle]

that is a great way. lats all ithmaar the intelligent idea. and accept it. written by yours truly. missannabelle aka booty prime

[Guest]

I'm in favor of the changes. I like heavy sword stances better than scythe's. Tho, scythes could have a higher attack speed at the cost of a bit of damage maybe.

[Hixlysss]

2 minutes ago, Senketsu_ said:

they arent destroying the assets by making them larger. making a 3D model larger dosnt do anything to textures and the such. its not like increasing the resolution on a Photoshop image. Also very few people use them any way. I would be more willing to use them if they were simply two handed. 

Removing the stances is removing art assets. Removing the art of the mod card, the animation work that was done on the 3 stances we currently have. Like how "under used" are the scythes that they are willing to just remove the "idea" of them completely by making them into "just another heavy blade"?

Like this is the first time we are hearing anything about the scythes being under used and a disliked class of weapons and DE is like "We might remove them." It's like suddenly hearing that Titania is a underused frame, so DE is going to just remove her from the game instead of reworking her.

[peterc3]

43 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

Like this is the first time we are hearing anything about the scythes being under used

Two classes of melee weapons that always come up. Scythes and dual daggers. The only way to not hear about it is to not ever look on the forums.

The art of the mod card is not even remotely in the same league as the stance animations. The stances are not great number wise. They are not being used and the weapons themselves aren't either.

59 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

It's like suddenly hearing that Titania is a underused frame, so DE is going to just remove her from the game instead of reworking her.

This is inane and not even close to where Scythes are at.

[Staggeringking]

What if they just added range to current scythes? Maybe buff a few other stats across them, but range seems to be a big deal in Warframe at the moment. 

Also, I quite like the mid-air swing on scythes and the quick melee. It would be a shame to just lose melee stances that are unique, when we could add some damage multipliers in the combos instead, or tweak the current stances animations? (get to the spin to win part of Stalking Fan faster??). Just wanted to put this out there..

[Sibernetika]

oh great now I have to put Tempo Royal on my scythes as well.... no I have less reason to use my Scythes I used scythes for endless missions against grineer and infested due to stalking fan ignoring the knockdowns and hooks now I have no reason to use them even though I have rivens for them

[Shmoofel]

I completely agree with the author. DE, please improve their characteristics, do not make them a heavy weapon.

[Senketsu_]

7 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

Removing the stances is removing art assets. Removing the art of the mod card, the animation work that was done on the 3 stances we currently have. Like how "under used" are the scythes that they are willing to just remove the "idea" of them completely by making them into "just another heavy blade"?

Like this is the first time we are hearing anything about the scythes being under used and a disliked class of weapons and DE is like "We might remove them." It's like suddenly hearing that Titania is a underused frame, so DE is going to just remove her from the game instead of reworking her.

you do realize assets and art gets removed all the time. And sometimes they get reused. Do you not understand how game development works. There are whole tiles that got removed or changed becasue they were outdated/underused. Scythes have always been talked about as being underused and lackluster. and MANY people have stated that Scythes should be wielded two handed the way they are actually used.

They arent removing scythes they are repurposing them to be more widely used. they will more then likely have their state readjusted to be more in line with heavy melee weapons. the only thing thats being removed is the stance cards. And NEWS FLASH! mods have gotten removed before, this isnt new!

Art assets get changed and ditched all the time, in every game under the sun. Its the nature of the beast that is the gaming industry. Hell on an art stream for Warframe a few months ago, the dev who designed Khora showed several iterations of her. a few were as far as the 3D model and he still scrapped them to get to the final model that we see today. This isnt the end of the world. it is a creative decision the davs made to a class of weapon that wasnt getting the use they wanted. SO they listened to feedback and made them two handed, like the community has been asking since forever. 

[fugitivefiftyone]

It makes zero sense to me to change them in such a way as to reduce the variety of weapons.  Sure some people don't like them and would like 2 handed scythes, fine, give them 2 handed scythes but don't do it at the expense of the people who like the current scythes of which I am one.  

 

[Hixlysss]

12 hours ago, Senketsu_ said:

you do realize assets and art gets removed all the time. And sometimes they get reused. Do you not understand how game development works. There are whole tiles that got removed or changed becasue they were outdated/underused. Scythes have always been talked about as being underused and lackluster. and MANY people have stated that Scythes should be wielded two handed the way they are actually used.

They arent removing scythes they are repurposing them to be more widely used. they will more then likely have their state readjusted to be more in line with heavy melee weapons. the only thing thats being removed is the stance cards. And NEWS FLASH! mods have gotten removed before, this isnt new!

Art assets get changed and ditched all the time, in every game under the sun. Its the nature of the beast that is the gaming industry. Hell on an art stream for Warframe a few months ago, the dev who designed Khora showed several iterations of her. a few were as far as the 3D model and he still scrapped them to get to the final model that we see today. This isnt the end of the world. it is a creative decision the davs made to a class of weapon that wasnt getting the use they wanted. SO they listened to feedback and made them two handed, like the community has been asking since forever. 

They aren't removing scythes? Technically...no, the models will still be there but the things that make them scythes(I.E. Their stance) is being removed, so they are removing Scythes from the game and merging the models as "heavy blades". And so far the only things I know of that got 'removed' are...well nothing really. They tweaked a glitched tileset and 'discontinued' the old dojo tiles, other than that...these tiles have been in the game since loooong ago.

On to the "art assets get changed and ditched" statement...that's concept and designing stage, when they are honing something to perfection to fit the game and be modeled. What I typically refer to as an "art asset" is the model/animations that have made it into the game. And yes, it's a 'creative' decision by the devs...but they also opened this up for the community to voice their opinion because even the devs aren't really sure of what to do, and the community is saying "Oh please no, at the very least let them be able to use both stances" because this is a BIG change, to just up and remove a class of weapons because it's "not loved" without even attempting to tweak the stances or weapon stats? It's drastic, and DE realized this and decided "Hey, let's ask the community what we should do." Because it's as much their game as ours.

 

19 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Two classes of melee weapons that always come up. Scythes and dual daggers. The only way to not hear about it is to not ever look on the forums.

The art of the mod card is not even remotely in the same league as the stance animations. The stances are not great number wise. They are not being used and the weapons themselves aren't either.

This is inane and not even close to where Scythes are at.

Dual daggers need love, yes, but DE could have at least made the attempt to tweak the stances, give us a new one, or adjust the weapon stats before going "It's all or nothing!" and wanting to effectively remove the weapon class all together.

And yeah, you're right, Titania is not even close to where scythes are at. She is worse.

[Dod-Regnbue]

13 hours ago, Senketsu_ said:

you do realize assets and art gets removed all the time. And sometimes they get reused. ". There are whole tiles that got removed or changed becasue they were outdated/underused. Scythes have always been talked about as being underused and lackluster. and MANY people have stated that Scythes should be wielded two handed the way they are actually used.

 

For a start, please keep it polite, not wanting to start full on arguments here, keep it opinion based, and provide evidence to back it up.
" Do you not understand how game development works." Is very aggressive, manners please. 
 There are whole tiles that got removed or changed becasue they were outdated/underused  The only tiles that have been (removed) discontinued are the old stylized Dojo ones and there has been, to my knowledge on one tile that has been changed. 

Many people have argued since her release that Titania is the worst Frame in the game and has no place / reason / or point in it's current standing. Why isn't she getting a Heavy Blade Upgrade? 
Scythes serve a purpose at their current state, in general the main argument seems to be they can't get used to the stance or that they are just bad with Scythes, this doesn't mean that those that can use them should suffer. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Dod-Regnbue

[Senketsu_]

4 hours ago, Dod-Regnbue said:

For a start, please keep it polite, not wanting to start full on arguments here, keep it opinion based, and provide evidence to back it up.
" Do you not understand how game development works." Is very aggressive, manners please. 
 There are whole tiles that got removed or changed becasue they were outdated/underused  The only tiles that have been (removed) discontinued are the old stylized Dojo ones and there has been, to my knowledge on one tile that has been changed. 

Many people have argued since her release that Titania is the worst Frame in the game and has no place / reason / or point in it's current standing. Why isn't she getting a Heavy Blade Upgrade? 
Scythes serve a purpose at their current state, in general the main argument seems to be they can't get used to the stance or that they are just bad with Scythes, this doesn't mean that those that can use them should suffer. 

Lol I was completely calm and collected when I typed that, just because you dont like what I had to say doesn't make it rude.. You are the one making it sound like I was mashing away at my keyboard. And my statement still stands.

You dont seem to understand how game development works. And there were several grineer asteroid tiles that were removed and and a few Corpus ship tiles that were removed and redesigned. and there are probably a plethora of fully modeled tiles that were never even implemented because they didnt fit. Scythes serve only one purpose and that is to give players that like the scythe weapon an ability to use them. And thats also the people who didnt like how DE implemented them. because the way the scythes are in WF arent the way they should be. Two handed weapons "reap" better then any of the scythes in WF. So making Scythes two handed that use heavy blade stances will fit very well, AND make them more viable and worth using.

Scythes are large two handed "glaive" polearms. Ditching two stances worth that only had 3 to 4 trees worth of animations isnt a "waste of time" its how game development works. You remove things that dont work or fit well.

[DaGhostDS]

Band-aid fix that won't fix anything, putting them in the Heavy blade will only dilute the pool of heavy blade even more.

The low damage of scythes and long animation are the issue with them.

Edited April 15, 2018 by DaGhostDS

[Dod-Regnbue]

You are still being snarky and aggressive. I am not making you sound like anything, I am saying how you are coming across. 

I do understand how Development works, there just seems to be a lot of people, including you, who do not understand how the scythes work. They are very viable, and work amazingly well, with balanced stats and a good mechanic to use with Condition Overload giving them one the the best stat benefit from it when compared to any other weapon. 
The fact of the matter here is that Scythes are not bad, you and apparently many other are just bad at using them. I am sorry they are not Galatine Prime, I am sorry they are not your "Meta" Scoliac spin-to-win. Maybe put of time and effort into something and determine how it works mechanically  before you jump on the band wagon and spout nonsense. 

Right, there are a few things going wrong here, 
Sythes are not  always these two handed object, America and European Scythes typically are yes, with a 24 to 28 inch curved or straight blade. 
Strictly speaking, the Kopesh Longsword Skin, is a scythe. 
The so called Scythes, that are used and what you are so referring to is nothing more than a farming tool, and have never been used as a weapon. 
So the Scythes that we have in Warframe right now, better represent an actual combat scythe. 

So please, since so many of you seem to have all the answers, tell me, how am I able to reach several hours in Mot solo, using just a Scythe when most if not all of you would struggle to do it with your Meta Equipment. 

Scythes are not bad! 
 

[fugitivefiftyone]

So because "many people" (and based on the numbers posting for and against i'm not sure you can call many) don't like scythes we ditch them?  Some people really enjoy them, why do they have to lose them?

[SkyeFeatherfall]

All scythes needs is a rework on their stances...makes them longer, buff some of them and make a new stance or use the olds one and they will be good to go.

 

Making scythes has heavy blade as little to no sense. They aren't made to work like that. If the stances of scythes wasn't fitting much, I don't see tempo royal or spin4ever fit more.

[OrochiFuror]

Buff scythe's and make a two handed style like Nikanas. Melee is going to get an overhaul like primary and secondaries did. The melee update will have to have a lot more work put into it, not just Stat tweets but animation changes too. Fix scythe's then, don't screw them over now, we already have way too many non similar weapons using the same stances.

[Sasuda]

I'd definitely prefer scythes remain a stance option. Please do not change scythes to heavy blades.

I do think Scythes as a whole need a range boost. They have deceptively shallow attacks.
I do think scythe stances need work but then again I personally think all stances need an overhaul actually.

In specific I think the Caustacyst's special ability needs more freedom of use, the charge is really slow, doesn't flow in or out of any combo, isn't affected by range mods, doesn't last very long... The biggest point here is it's not a natural part of the stance. And this goes for a lot of melee, gunblades are the closest thing to an exception from implementing good combos and mechanics together. Even still they could be better. 

The stances are cool too. They just don't play that well. Movement restrictions really hold back most stances I think. Being locked into animations and moving in unintended directions, movement is so critically important in Warframe. Spin attacks and slam attacks remain generally the better attacks over stances largely because of this, air strikes are a bit of a mixed bag still.

[DrBorris]

On 4/16/2018 at 4:18 PM, ---SO---Crystallyser said:

All scythes needs is a rework on their stances...makes them longer, buff some of them and make a new stance or use the olds one and they will be good to go.

 

Making scythes has heavy blade as little to no sense. They aren't made to work like that. If the stances of scythes wasn't fitting much, I don't see tempo royal or spin4ever fit more.

The reason DE is considering just making Scythes heavy blades is because to "make them longer" and "make a new stance" is a ton more work than just "make them longer" and "apply a current stance". It takes a lot of development time to create a new stance, and I can't deny that I would love to have the current Scythe stances reworked/buffed to fit larger, scaled up weapons, but that process would entail basically making two new stances from scratch.

Making Scythes Heavy Blades has the best time versus reward proportion. Maybe scale up the Scythes, let them use the Heavy Blade stances, then work on a Scythe specific stance once the craziness of Venus open-world and The Sacrifice calms down.

 

On 4/16/2018 at 4:01 PM, fugitivefiftyone said:

So because "many people" (and based on the numbers posting for and against i'm not sure you can call many) don't like scythes we ditch them?  Some people really enjoy them, why do they have to lose them?

Because if so few people like/use something then it is a waste of development and resources. For example, see Trials.

Edited April 18, 2018 by DrBorris