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Health Conversion Should NOT Exist


Damocles
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Short Story: Health Conversion is almost virtually unusable unless you have nekros or oberon.

I just maxed my standing and redeemed a Health Conversion mod for the sake of not overflowing on standing. I noticed some problems with this mod:
1. It requires 15 drain at maxed rank and it is absolutely unreliable
2. It requires health orbs which does not drop from enemies. You must find wild animals, lockers, containers, use broken scepter gimmick or warframe abilities to acquire health orbs.
3. It stacks 3 times and loses a stack every 3 seconds upon getting hit. These INSANELY rare health orb bonuses get consumed every 3 seconds in practical use. 15 drain... plz
4. People only use this on oberon and nekros because these are the only frames able to reliably make health orbs. I guess trinity too, but she's already invulnerable...
5. You cannot consume a health orb unless your hp is not 100%. This makes sense, but if health conversion can gain a stack, it should consume it anyways.

Why are these problems?
To effectively use this, it must be nekros/oberon, or you must play with them in your squad. You can only find health orbs from lockers, containers, wild animals, broken scepter and warframe abilities when you are hopefully not at 100% hp. You better not take any dmg while you do this...

How I've tried to stretch the use case:
Rhino's 2 prevents stacks from being lost upon taking damage.
Use a rank 9 Primed Regen mod, KYS if you cannot control the dmg (trigger regen and sentinel is now 95%HP), or somehow hurt your sentinel to remove at least 51 hp so you can consume 3 health orbs even if you're at maxed hp.
Bring a broken scepter, and drain health orbs from enemies.
This is highly impractical! Why is this so hard to make it barely useful?

What others will think:
-Bring concealed explosives and lose out on your secondary weapon choice
-Bring broken scepter and lose out on your melee choice
-Bring lenz, or any self damaging weapon and lose out on primary weapon choice
-Bring nekros/oberon and lose out on warframe choice
-NOT USE THE MOD AND SAVE THE SLOT FOR LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE
-Make an expanding brain meme for the above (Drake meme auger pact NO | magnum force YES while you're at it)

My suggestions:
-Maybe mobs drop health orbs too? (A lot of players expected this to be a thing)
-Maybe instead of health orbs, change it to something that is dropped by mobs such as mods/ammo/energy?
-Maybe instead of consuming stacks on damage, change it to damage on HP so shields do not consume a stack.
-Maybe provide outright 1 stack guaranteed so the mod slot isn't entirely wasted for 15 drain, and stacks up an additional 2. ei, 450 armor anytime, get 1350 armor if you somehow gain 2 stacks. Otherwise this is an oberon/nekros exclusive mod... as it's useless for anything else at 15 drain

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à l’instant, (PS4)Onder6099 a dit :

Bring Sahasa Kubrow

"And loose your companion choice" as OP would say. Sahasas are underated, imo, but still pretty inconsistant and not reliable enough for such a mod to be helpfull. 

I don't think that the mod "shouldn't exist", but it is clearly a Nekros/Oberon exclusive which isn't a good thing. The mod itself isn't totaly op because of it's weird and clunky mechanics (damage on shields consuming a stack makes no sense when the mod is hp/armor based), but if those were removed and changed so the mod is usefull for every frame, it might be a little too much. There needs to be a downgrade so it's not broken, but as it is now this mod is broken because it doesn't work well on 34 of the 36 (37 SoonTM) frames in the game.

Lowering the armor buff but making it usefull for every frame would be a better alternative than as it is now and/or removing it completely from the game, imo.

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1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

"And loose your companion choice" as OP would say. Sahasas are underated, imo, but still pretty inconsistant and not reliable enough for such a mod to be helpfull. 

Tbh, but this sounds like Sahasa isn't Companion. While I agree that Kubrow's Precepts are little bit Cluncky it's still my decision to choose Sahasa just for Health, Energy Conversion or Arcane Energize, because I found it most useful than any other Companion at that moment.

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

I don't think that the mod "shouldn't exist", but it is clearly a Nekros/Oberon exclusive which isn't a good thing. The mod itself isn't totaly op because of it's weird and clunky mechanics (damage on shields consuming a stack makes no sense when the mod is hp/armor based), but if those were removed and changed so the mod is usefull for every frame, it might be a little too much. There needs to be a downgrade so it's not broken, but as it is now this mod is broken because it doesn't work well on 34 of the 36 (37 SoonTM) frames in the game.

It will never fit to all Frames, because it's about Armor. The mechanics is OK because I should use this Mod only with Frames which will have Profit from it, like Frost, Rhino and my favorite Nezha, their defensive Abilities are based on eHP so u will not lose "stack". 1350 into eHP algorithm is really huge, with BR, TF and Intensify it's around 14k, but I'm bad in math an I will not disturb my math friend   @(PS4)Crixus044from his hybarnation.

1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Lowering the armor buff but making it usefull for every frame would be a better alternative than as it is now and/or removing it completely from the game, imo.

There 2/3 overlooked Mods and because this Mod needs more effort then max to R10 and put him into Build doesn't automatically means he is useless and needs "rework".

Edited by (PS4)Onder6099
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Wouldn't use Health Conversion with Broken Scepter or Trinity's WoL augment tbh., too tedious to force yourself into a chain of casts/Scepter alt mechanic just to get the 3 seconds armor buff, Arcane Guardian works better and only uses the Arcane slots. (most other Arcanes are pointless most of the time anyways)

Nekros needs to use up a slot for it which could be better utilized by making Desecrate consume less energy/health or Shield of Shadows+minions stronger or just by adding another duration mod.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Tbh, but this sounds like Sahasa isn't Companion. While I agree that Kubrow's Precepts are little bit Cluncky it's still my decision to choose Sahasa just for Health, Energy Conversion or Arcane Energize, because I found it most useful than any other Companion at that moment.

It will never fit to all Frames, because it's about Armor. The mechanics is OK because I should use this Mod only with Frames which will have Profit from it, like Frost, Rhino and my favorite Nezha, their defensive Abilities are based on eHP so u will not lose "stack". 1350 into eHP algorithm is really huge, with BR, TF and Intensify it's around 14k, but I'm bad in math an I will not disturb my math friend   @(PS4)Crixus044from his hybarnation.

There 2/3 overlooked Mods and because this Mod needs more effort then max to R10 and put him into Build doesn't automatically means he is useless and needs "rework".

All depends on the build, but at 200% PS, which is a balanced build, steel fiber and HC can get ya 12k at base, much higher with ironclad charge.

About op, while i agree that the losing stack method is a little harsh, the mod is ok as an armor bonus from health orbs. I think the armor bonus loss should be a drain almost like atlas's passive. The thing is, orbs DO drop from enemies, and can easily be harvested by frames and companions. Broken specter, smeeta (little too rng though), sahasa, nekros, hydroid, oberon, trinity,  or even ivara. Also, it's not like we were struggling without the mod or that we don't need it. It's a conditional bonus. If you want the buffs, set up the condition to get the reward. Otherwise, play like the rest of us had long before you started. You've joined in from War Within, but a lot of us have been here for years doing just fine. It just takes time my friend.

And about health damage, there's an easy way to take health damage without needing to self damage or loose your shields and skin. Grab a Hema. Every reload siphons health so that you can grab orbs. It's like a legendary martial artist once said. "Where there's a will, there is a way."

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So... I still don't understand the problem.

This is a single niche mod, it's completely optional, even on Nekros.

It has a function, and that function isn't useful across all frames evenly. And? Does the fact that Rage and Hunter Adrenaline are useless on frames that don't have the armour or health to take damage consistently mean they should be removed?

How about the non-primed version of mods like Vigor? They're useless now that people have the Primed versions... right?

I mean... honestly.

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6 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

[TITLE] Health Conversion Should NOT Exist

Short Story: Health Conversion is almost virtually unusable unless you have nekros or oberon.

Its use is niche, so it shouldn't exist?

Tell another joke, please.

Edited by SenorClipClop
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vor 6 Stunden schrieb kgabor:

Nekros needs to use up a slot for it which could be better utilized by making Desecrate consume less energy/health or Shield of Shadows+minions stronger or just by adding another duration mod.

Is that an issue? Nekros generates both health and energy orbs en mass, what makes not only Health conversion possible but also Equilibrium an alternative to any sort of efficiency.

Mine literally runs with 45% efficiency and never did i have energy issues.

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Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Is that an issue? Nekros generates both health and energy orbs en mass, what makes not only Health conversion possible but also Equilibrium an alternative to any sort of efficiency.

Mine literally runs with 45% efficiency and never did i have energy issues.

It's not, Zenurik 2.0 made Despoil obsolete since you can get insane amounts of energy from orbs but that's just my preference, i feel Shield of Shadows is more than enough to keep Nekros alive and Arcane Guardian gives about the same dr while it doesn't even cost a mod slot so might as well mod for Desecrate or more powerful Shadows.

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I only really agree with "shield shouldn't cause stack loss".

Just because a mod only has niche applications for a few select frames doesn't mean it's bad. If it's good on those frames (and from my experience with Nekros is very much is) then it's good.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb kgabor:

It's not, Zenurik 2.0 made Despoil obsolete since you can get insane amounts of energy from orbs but that's just my preference, i feel Shield of Shadows is more than enough to keep Nekros alive and Arcane Guardian gives about the same dr while it doesn't even cost a mod slot so might as well mod for Desecrate or more powerful Shadows.

The 450 extra armor are the difference between the defense of a gara and the one of a pre-nerf max max ice chroma due to how percentual reductions scale on armored frames.

Garas reduction on defense targets is also enough but people still pushed her wall. That's the kinda difference it makes in reality.

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The 450 extra armor are the difference between the defense of a gara and the one of a pre-nerf max max ice chroma due to how percentual reductions scale on armored frames.

Garas reduction on defense targets is also enough but people still pushed her wall. That's the kinda difference it makes in reality.

The armor bonus from HC would be a waste on top of Arcane Guardian though, at that point more armor doesn't make much of a difference in dr, Shield of Shadows does.

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Il y a 6 heures, Thaylien a dit :

So... I still don't understand the problem.

This is a single niche mod, it's completely optional, even on Nekros.

It has a function, and that function isn't useful across all frames evenly. And? Does the fact that Rage and Hunter Adrenaline are useless on frames that don't have the armour or health to take damage consistently mean they should be removed?

How about the non-primed version of mods like Vigor? They're useless now that people have the Primed versions... right?

I mean... honestly.

It works just fine with Oberon and Nekros, but that's all. It's meh with Hydroid since you have to use your ult against the enemies so they can drop stuff, which is a lot less efficient than a Nekros running around with Desecrate active due to the "place here" mechanic.

Even worst for Trin, since you need the Augment for the 1. Using the 2nd or 3rd Augment would be way better.

The Broken Scepter's mechanic is.... broken. You need to kill the enemy, "Desecrate" it in a long animation where you can't move and it HAS to be a humanoïd enemy, since robots give energy orb. All this for one single health orb that might be used while you recover from the animation you were stuck in. Oh, and the weapon is pretty bad as a whole, especially if you don't bother boosting it with a Riven.

The Sahasa is just like other companions: clunky precepts. Unless DE gives us Pet 2.0 with the ability to actualy command them or just making them more reliable in general, it's not enough for such a mod to be usefull.

 

That's the problem. It works fine for 2 frames, but it's clunky and almost impossible to use effectively on 34 of the 36 total frames in the game. 

Il y a 10 heures, (PS4)Onder6099 a dit :

It will never fit to all Frames, because it's about Armor. The mechanics is OK because I should use this Mod only with Frames which will have Profit from it, like Frost, Rhino and my favorite Nezha, their defensive Abilities are based on eHP so u will not lose "stack".

A fix armor buff can be usefull to every single frame in the game, that's why Oberon's armor buff (post-rework) is good at protecting squishier frames such as Nyx, Nova, Loki, Ember, etc. (unlike the 20% pre-rework)

It's also the one reason why DE changed the Unairu passive to a fix 20/30/40/60 armor buff instead of a %. A +% is only good for frames with high base armor, but a steady +60 is a lot more usefull to squishy frames with low armor who would barely get 5-10 armor out of a % bonus.

Making every frame able to easey get 1k+ armor with this mod would be too much, which is why I previously said that making the mod and the aquisition of health orbs reliable in every case would also require a slight nerf to the armor value of the said mod so it's not op.

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1 minute ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

That's the problem. It works fine for 2 frames, but it's clunky and almost impossible to use effectively on 34 of the 36 total frames in the game. 

Still not seeing why it needs to be removed or changed.

Not all mods need to be effective across every frame. Not all mods are universal. And there isn't a problem with that warranting a base change in how other aspects of the game functions, such as health drops, just to allow a niche mod to become universal.

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Il y a 4 heures, Thaylien a dit :

Still not seeing why it needs to be removed or changed.

Not all mods need to be effective across every frame. Not all mods are universal. And there isn't a problem with that warranting a base change in how other aspects of the game functions, such as health drops, just to allow a niche mod to become universal.

I never said it should be removed. That's OP's pov which I do not share, but the fact that this mod works with only 2 frames out of 36 is clearly a problem, even if you can't see it. 

Sure, not all mods are universal, but at least they're usefull on more than 2 frames/weapons/etc. Steel Fiber is usefull on pretty much every tanky frame (Chroma, Nidus, Valkyr, Saryn, Oberon, Rhino, Inaros and so on), but it's pretty useless on squishy frames. Health Convertion could be the Steel Fiber of weak frames, but since none can create health orbs effectively even with specific gears such as a Sahasa Kubrow and the Broken Scepter, it is just as useless as SF. 

Sorry if I'm wrong to think that this mod should be effective on every frame. I just don't see the point of it being so damn restricted when it's not even that reliable.

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1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Sorry if I'm wrong to think that this mod should be effective on every frame. I just don't see the point of it being so damn restricted when it's not even that reliable.

You're not exactly wrong to have the opinion, my friend, but about 80% of Warframe's mods are generally just not as useful as the other 20% in any situation. For example, once you get a 120% Slash mod from Baro, why would you ever use the 90% or 30% versions?

Loki is a frame that literally can dump all Strength for his abilities, so all the mods like Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage, Intensify... none of them are useful on him. He's one of the few frames that an Overextended doesn't need to be compensated for by something else.

Modding is all about, from the very outset, this idea that mods are used in different ways on different frames. Just because Rage, for example, is strong on a Chroma or Oberon, doesn't mean it should be strong on a Banshee or Ivara.

It's, in my eye, exactly like Quick Thinking.

Quick Thinking crosses quite a lot of people's thoughts as quite a positive thing. We have so many ways to generate energy, and I can simply sustain myself on that until I find a way to heal up. Great!... Except I've been here, running long runs and short runs and teaching newer players and getting advice from more experienced players and dealing with pretty much every level of play in the game that I know one, overriding truth; it's just better to have the energy for your abilities. Abilities and game knowledge are the key to playing Warframe, not your Health, not your Armour, not anything about the stats. If you know how and when to move, what to target, when to pause and when to cast abilities, and if you always have the energy necessary to cast an ability, you will go further in this game than anyone else who misses even one part of that. And that's why Quick Thinking will never be the mod people think it is, because if you can't move the right way, when you need to, you'll die anyway. If you can't acquire targets and kill prioritise, you'll die anyway. And what's worse, you'll die because your abilities, that could have saved you, won't be available because you're using that energy.

I don't use Health Conversion, not for the most part, rarely if ever on Oberon or even Nekros... it's a gimmick to me.

But my old-fogey anecdotal arguments aside, that's kind of it; Health Conversion is a gimmick. 

If you can make a gimmick work, then great. If you have a frame that can't exploit that gimmick, then use a different one, other options are there. Pick a frame that you'd like to run Health Conversion on and I'll tell you how it doesn't need it (except Ember, she's in a bad place right now). And in every case it's CC and other methods of direct damage mitigation that don't rely on armour or base stats to do so. They might benefit from a situational armour gimmick, in the specific situations, but they don't need it.

Even Oberon and Nekros, that are able to exploit the gimmick, don't need it.

But... ignore all that if you like.

Because here's the root of what I'm finding wrong with this whole discussion:

If the best way that OP, and anyone else arguing for their view, can think up to make the mod more viable is to literally change a completely different system (the health orbs) then there's something wrong at the core of this discussion. The system of health orb drops is not something that's going to change just to let this mod be applicable across the board.

Instead wouldn't it be better to talk about the mod and how it functions? Why not, oh, off the top of my head... talk about Health gain? So with Health Conversion equipped, then any single instance of gained health converts to armour for a limited period... but like Atlas' Rubble? If you're at full Health, additional Health gained is converted to armour that persists until damage is taken, and so on. Making it "single instance" means that persistent abilities like Renewal, or massive-value heals from Blessing, wouldn't become a meta for this, since Renewal would only work off the initial cast, and Blessing would have to be spammed over and over... in fact, this would make Well of Life incredibly valuable because the healing from attacking the target would be multiple single-instance heals for quick gain...

That's an adjustment that I could see DE making, with a little persuasion, one that could easily function off the other parts of the game besides Health Orbs (which also count as health gain too).

Number adjustment could come after that, say that each instance of 'over' healing grants only 25 armour, but you can stack that up to 50 times for 1250 armour. And each instance of damage strips away a stack after only 1 second, so Heavy Gunners and Scorches still shred, but Bombards and Snipers can't.

I get the whole 'wouldn't it be cool if' thing, but if you can't come up with adjustments to the mod itself, and instead want to change the base game out from under it... that's just the wrong way to go about this.

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Actually it's bad for Oberon, since his 4th can't basically kill anything in high levels where he needs that extra armor from Health Conversion to survive better, while in low levels he can just press 4 to clear a group of enemies while enemies are too weak to deal any damage to him, so what's the point of using HC in low levels ?

Basically this mod is just like another augment mod for Nekros only, and if other frames wanna utilize this mod they either need some awkward gimmick (looking at u, the broken scepter...) or it's just impractial to use it in a real fight.

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2 hours ago, Doomsknight said:

Actually it's bad for Oberon, since his 4th can't basically kill anything in high levels where he needs that extra armor from Health Conversion to survive better, while in low levels he can just press 4 to clear a group of enemies while enemies are too weak to deal any damage to him, so what's the point of using HC in low levels ?

Basically this mod is just like another augment mod for Nekros only, and if other frames wanna utilize this mod they either need some awkward gimmick (looking at u, the broken scepter...) or it's just impractial to use it in a real fight.

It is actually very easy to kill enemies in high levels with Reckoning if you've built Oberon correctly as you can strip all armor permanently off of enemies with 1 or 2 casts. Assuming some efficiency, it's very easy to spam Reckoning for permanent crowd control of all enemies and an abundance of health orbs.

None of the complaints posted by the OP are a reason for this mod to not exist. It's good on Nekros and Oberon, and I also use it on Nidus and Inaros in certain situations, and it's useful for arena type maps too since there are always guaranteed health orb spawn locations. It's also a nice mod to throw into any Warframe build when you know you will have a Nekros on your team, like in endless farming missions. Just because it's a niche mod and you can't think of all of its potential uses that doesn't mean it should be removed from the game.

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What's wrong with a mod that's only good for 2-3 frames? I find it a breath of fresh air.

Mods like Condition Overload and Blood Rush are the ones that shouldn't exist. They could have solved that with weapon balance. As a result they've also added Combo Duration mods and a Focus Skill Node to address the same problem and all are near mandatory.

There's another post talking about Mandatory mods and that's what you risk creating with a mod that is useful to every frame. Theoretically Augments were supposed to fill the role of frame specific option but they've instead been mostly used as band-aids or wasted opportunity.

 

Edited by Xzorn
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