These Are Not Scythes

[GreyEnneract]

I've put up with it long enough.The pre-built "scythes" were already small and insulting enough. 
But these? Who designed these? Have they played any other game with a Scythe in it?
https://imgur.com/a/hJIrG5k

[EDM774]

Maybe use a grip that's not the smallest available LoL

What did you think combining a dagger grip like the peye with a sytche blade will give you?

Try using the long polearm or staff grips then come back whining about how small they are.

[Errodin]

The strike will still be small, scythes deal with a large arc, not a small hook.

[GreyEnneract]

5 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

Maybe use a grip that's not the smallest available LoL

What did you think combining a dagger grip like the peye with a sytche blade will give you?

Try using the long polearm or staff grips then come back whining about how small they are.

I'm going to assume you're just flaming. Poorly.
Only the small grips create a "Scythe" in this game.
No other grips create what this game mistakenly calls "Scythes."
You literally call the other grips "polearm" and "staff".
Meaning they aren't             ?
I'll let you figure it out.

[Maganar]

On 4/20/2018 at 6:01 PM, GreyEnneract said:

I've put up with it long enough.The pre-built "scythes" were already small and insulting enough. 
But these? Who designed these? Have they played any other game with a Scythe in it?
https://imgur.com/a/hJIrG5k

The problem is a serious misunderstanding of earlier community feedback on DE's part.

If you were around during Plaguestar 1.0, you probably remember this; if not, here's the history lesson:

Plague Keewar was intended to provide a Scythe option.  However, the Zaws were quite clearly rushed to be released as part of Plaguestar, and it was released with a massive oversight - instead of the two-handed grip providing a Scythe, the one-handed grip did it.  The two-handed provided a Stave.

DE tried to hotfix it by turning them into Machetes (same stance as Kama, for comparison - which is what it looked like when using the one-handed grips, so it made sense)... but waited a day or two, until after many players had enthusiastically jumped on the chance to FINALLY make a Scythe Zaw, the first new weapon class we'd been given.  Some of us had not made ours yet, but specifically brought spare Plague Keewar because we wanted to try our hand at making a Zaw Scythe.  In many cases, most of us had no interest in a Plague Keewar Machete, only our Scythe.  The community responded strongly, requesting that we receive our option to build a Scythe back.

DE didn't understand what we were asking.  Some people actually liked the horribly glitchy and broken animations of the one-handed hatchet-scythes, but most of us didn't want broken animations - we wanted a functional Scythe we could make out of Plague Keewar.  DE could have done a number of things.  My favorite suggestion I've heard (and I heard it within a few hours of that hotfix) is that they could have released a cosmetically identical version of Plague Bokwin which, when crafted with Plague Keewar would construct a Scythe instead of a Stave, then refund the parts to people who built a Scythe-now-Machete.

DE did not do this or anything else.  They thought we specifically wanted hand-scythes, for whatever reason, even though they looked stupid and made no sense; they actually thought that we were asking for our "baby scythes" back.  They simply reverted the change instead of giving us a new option for make Scythes.  Most of us figured that was the end of it, and were at least glad DE understood we found it unacceptable to have entire weapon classes for new gear changed post-release...

...Until now.  Now our tragically misinterpreted feedback has come back to haunt us.  DE has now made it the norm to release these self-crafted Scythes which are so small they look nonsensical and which literally have broken animations.  I'm not sure what can fix this trend now, but it's all the fallout of a very unfortunate miscommunication.  Perhaps DE will finally take the hint this time around that our issue was not with the removal of broken animations and nonsensical weapon classifications, but rather in their choice to bait-and-switch us by offering us a Scythe Zaw and then saying "Nope, sorry, Scythe Zaws will never exist for the foreseeable future!" (which was the only word we had at the time).

Edited April 21, 2018 by Maganar

[Fukushu]

Considering the Dokrahm on a two-handed grip is what a Scythe in a fantasy/sci-fi game should be, let's hope it's just a taste of what's to come with the proposed Scythe rework and that DE will at least change the two variants accordingly when it drops (single-handed Dokrahm becomes a Machete, two-handed Dokrahm becomes a Scythe).

...Though considering they didn't learn their lesson from the Plague Keewar, I'm probably just doing some wishful thinking at this point, but on the bright side, at least the two-handed Dokrahm really scratches that "I want a larger Scythe" itch I've been having, and its even become my new favorite Zaw.

[GreyEnneract]

47 minutes ago, Maganar said:

-Cut to quote-

Yeah I was around for that fiasco. Unfortunately even the "scythes" before Zaws though are also too small.

17 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

Considering the Dokrahm on a two-handed grip is what a Scythe in a fantasy/sci-fi game should be, let's hope it's just a taste of what's to come with the proposed Scythe rework and that DE will at least change the two variants accordingly when it drops (single-handed Dokrahm becomes a Machete, two-handed Dokrahm becomes a Scythe).

...Though considering they didn't learn their lesson from the Plague Keewar, I'm probably just doing some wishful thinking at this point, but on the bright side, at least the two-handed Dokrahm really scratches that "I want a larger Scythe" itch I've been having, and its even become my new favorite Zaw.

Even the Dokrahm's size is on the shorter end. It's also a very strange blade at a very odd angle.
The way Zaws connect in general look really jarring, but the handle lengths are spot on despite the weirdness.
I do like the Dokrahm's look, but the only fitting scythe in this game currently is the Kaszas.
At least the new God of War still remembers what actual scythes are within media.

[Maganar]

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

Yeah I was around for that fiasco. Unfortunately even the "scythes" before Zaws though are also too small.

-cut-

I do like the Dokrahm's look, but the only fitting scythe in this game currently is the Kaszas.
 

Yeah, it was an unfortunate miscommunication and I'm concerned to see that it has become an accepted style for "Scythes" now even though these don't function as Scythes at all.  It doesn't help that, as a community, we sent DE an extremely mixed message because of those people out there who actually like broken animations and find that so funny they don't care if that breaks immersion horribly for everyone else around them.

The Scythes prior to Zaws aren't too small per se, but they are too small to be the only Scythes in the game if you ask me.  There has to a true monstrous scythe that looks like something appropriate for reaping the souls of your foes - like Kaszas, as you point out.  It's really the only one that lives up to the intimidating nature of a big, long scythe as I think many players want it.

To be honest, what bothers me most of all about the Dokrahm-Scythe option is... well, how the heck do you hold that?  Much less strike your enemies with it?  I mean, just look at how goofy it appears with the Peye in your first linked image in particular.  Yeesh.  I just can't imagine anyone killing a person with such an oddly misshapen implement.  I figure a warframe would just have an easier time wrenching a pipe off the wall of a Grineer galleon and beating the Grineer to death with the pipe sooner than I could imagine a warframe voluntarily using something as unwieldy as that when they have the full arsenal of melee weapons in the game at their disposal.

[Bryntwulf]

Dakrahm works really well as an axe/scythe when made with a 2h grip. Only slight issue I've been having is with the animations, since the edge alignment is about 15 degrees off, which looks fine on greatswords, not so good on axes or scythes. 

Hopefully DE adds a new stance along with the scythe rework. Maybe a Devil May Cry style moveset? Lots of one-handed vertical spins, a few rushing slashes for mobility, maybe even the first combo that'll ragdoll enemies into the air? 

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

2 hours ago, Bryntwulf said:

...maybe even the first combo that'll ragdoll enemies into the air? 

Only if we get to auto follow and finish with an air combo...

(Breaths heavily)

[Azamagon]

Even if those Zaw "Scythes" were changed into becoming Machetes, they still look ridiculously small...

[Bryntwulf]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Even if those Zaw "Scythes" were changed into becoming Machetes, they still look ridiculously small...

You think this is small? https://imgur.com/kz1rUmH

Edited April 22, 2018 by Bryntwulf

[jmthebigman]

12 minutes ago, Bryntwulf said:

You think this is small? https://imgur.com/kz1rUmH

looks like a 2h grip. while the current scythes are made with 1h.

[Bryntwulf]

That would be correct. This is the "test" scythe that DE is running for their Scythes-are-heavy-blades concept, and it's pretty great. High damage, good movesets, and it means that if enough people enjoy it or are indifferent to it, then the change will happen, and we'll likely get a new Heavy Blades stance based on the current scythe stances. 

[Azamagon]

5 hours ago, Bryntwulf said:

You think this is small? https://imgur.com/kz1rUmH

No, but that one is using Heavy Blade stance, not Scythe stance.

For using the Scythe stances, you need to use the onehanded grip...

[Bryntwulf]

25 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

No, but that one is using Heavy Blade stance, not Scythe stance.

For using the Scythe stances, you need to use the onehanded grip...

Right, which is what scythes will be using after their rework. 

[GreyEnneract]

3 hours ago, Bryntwulf said:

Right, which is what scythes will be using after their rework. 

Looking at the wording DE used when addressing scythes, they don't know what they want to do.
The current "scythe" Zaws would raise many issues if they decided to just make "scythes" into heavy blades.
Scythes would have to be resized and modeled from the ground up based on current designs.
Then they would need to rig them again with their new size, and decide what to do with the current scythe stances.
Removing them would cause backlash, but to be used with heavy blades they would need new animations. Which take a lot of work.
If they were just designed to be huge from the start like every other game's scythes they wouldn't be dealing with this right now.

[Naqel]

On 4/21/2018 at 12:12 AM, Errodin said:

The strike will still be small, scythes deal with a large arc, not a small hook.

Scythes also deal with agricultural crops, not people.
Even with the death symbolism involved, the reaping is of a soul from a body laid upon the ground, not rending the body unto pieces.

Scythes (sickles, really) looking stupid as weapons is entirely adequate to the very idea of using them as such. Even the Kama, one of the signature weapons of a ninja, is a farming implement first, a weapon at a distant second, and a weapon at all solely by the virtue of being inconspicuous despite it's blade.

[Bryntwulf]

3 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Looking at the wording DE used when addressing scythes, they don't know what they want to do.
The current "scythe" Zaws would raise many issues if they decided to just make "scythes" into heavy blades.
Scythes would have to be resized and modeled from the ground up based on current designs.
Then they would need to rig them again with their new size, and decide what to do with the current scythe stances.
Removing them would cause backlash, but to be used with heavy blades they would need new animations. Which take a lot of work.
If they were just designed to be huge from the start like every other game's scythes they wouldn't be dealing with this right now.

I'm not sure I would agree with you on the amount of work needed to make the current scythes into the Heavy Blade sized scythes. Scaling them up, adding a few extra loops to the mesh, and adjusting said loops to keep the detail consistent wouldnt be hard at all. I've done it myself many times with weapons for Fallout 4. The potential problem would be in the textures, as without the original texture project files the texture may appear stretched. However, since DE is a company full of dedicated professionals who are just as obsessive over detail as a normal player, they certainly have the original texture files and can make this all happen without a hitch. As they showed with the Hate, they have already started on the project. 

As for the Zaws, they've already shown us that it's easy enough to change the weapon type of a strike/grip combination. More likely than not, the current 1h scythes will become machetes, while the 2h scythes will become Heavy blades. I would prefer that DE refund the Keewar players parts when this happens, but I think they'd be happy regardless. The Dokrahm is already the correct size, but I do agree that the Keewar will need to be scaled up a bit, or have an actual blade attached to it.

The current scythe stances arent popular in the slightest. Most players hate Stalking Fan for the forces pauses that dont go away no matter how much speed you put on, and hate Reaping Spiral for how poorly the animations have aged. They wont be missed, and players will be content with the free endo or whatever DE decides on as a gift to those who had the stances. If DE also adds a new Heavy Blade stance with them, then both the Scythe players and Heavy Blade players will be overjoyed.

Of course, there will be backlash, but it will be from the vocal minority of people who will complain about anything and everything. No one listens to them.

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, Bryntwulf said:

I'm not sure I would agree with you on the amount of work needed to make the current scythes into the Heavy Blade sized scythes. Scaling them up, adding a few extra loops to the mesh, and adjusting said loops to keep the detail consistent wouldnt be hard at all. I've done it myself many times with weapons for Fallout 4. The potential problem would be in the textures, as without the original texture project files the texture may appear stretched. However, since DE is a company full of dedicated professionals who are just as obsessive over detail as a normal player, they certainly have the original texture files and can make this all happen without a hitch. As they showed with the Hate, they have already started on the project. 

As for the Zaws, they've already shown us that it's easy enough to change the weapon type of a strike/grip combination. More likely than not, the current 1h scythes will become machetes, while the 2h scythes will become Heavy blades. I would prefer that DE refund the Keewar players parts when this happens, but I think they'd be happy regardless. The Dokrahm is already the correct size, but I do agree that the Keewar will need to be scaled up a bit, or have an actual blade attached to it.

The current scythe stances arent popular in the slightest. Most players hate Stalking Fan for the forces pauses that dont go away no matter how much speed you put on, and hate Reaping Spiral for how poorly the animations have aged. They wont be missed, and players will be content with the free endo or whatever DE decides on as a gift to those who had the stances. If DE also adds a new Heavy Blade stance with them, then both the Scythe players and Heavy Blade players will be overjoyed.

Of course, there will be backlash, but it will be from the vocal minority of people who will complain about anything and everything. No one listens to them.

When they made the Keewar a machete, there was so much outrage that they reverted the change. I personally was fine with it being a machete, since it's clearly not a scythe.
As for the stances, scythes in the first place aren't popular as far as melee go, so it goes without saying that the stances aren't popular either.
I've used "scythes" in game for years, with my top 3 most used weapons being those, and don't see what pauses you're referring to.
Whenever I see the stances brought up, it's their outdated multipliers on combos that's talked about. The animations themselves are fine, although Spiral could use one more combo.
I'll say you shouldn't speak for everyone else, the stances will be missed. Just like how people were enraged about the Keewar change.
That's why DE was so vague and defensive when they brought up the Scythe changes in the last stream.

2 hours ago, Naqel said:

Scythes also deal with agricultural crops, not people.
Even with the death symbolism involved, the reaping is of a soul from a body laid upon the ground, not rending the body unto pieces.

Scythes (sickles, really) looking stupid as weapons is entirely adequate to the very idea of using them as such. Even the Kama, one of the signature weapons of a ninja, is a farming implement first, a weapon at a distant second, and a weapon at all solely by the virtue of being inconspicuous despite it's blade.

I think everyone here is well aware of the scythes origins. This thread is more to bring Warframe's "scythes" in line with other games, shows, and media in general.
In DE's own words Warframe follows the "rule of cool", leading to silly things like Octavia, Ninkondi, Gunsen, and so on.
In this case though the "scythes" in game currently don't match up with other media or reality. They're their own weird abomination.
Even the farming scythes in real life are bigger than what we have in Warframe.
Though scythes are an unconventional weapon, they are clearly popular weapons in other media as being large and intimidating.
Even the new God of War remembers this, so I'm not sure why whoever designed them in the beginning of Warframe made them this way in-game.

[KochDerFrettchen]

tbh it's more like a Kama, which is an actual weapon, than the half-scythe(farmtool) half-pure-fantasy animeme scythes that you would find in... lets say dark souls, I can't got more than ten minutes without saying dark souls.

[Naqel]

17 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

I'm not sure why whoever designed them in the beginning of Warframe made them this way in-game.

The reason they were made the way they were, was the WICKED <redacted> <redacted> <redacted> COOL <redacted> <redacted> animation they had on the charge attack, which is now gone from the game AFAIK.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Naqel

[Eldnacpeek]

22 hours ago, Bryntwulf said:

--

 

Agreed entirely. The Dokrahm has made me desire larger scythes so much more, and as with a few others, it's become my favorite Zaw. I was hesitant at first with the idea of converting scythes to heavy blades and making different stances mainly due to the fact the current scythes are still pretty small. If DE can make adjustments across the current scythes in game and then procoeed to make the changes to the weapon class, I'll be happy as hell.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

They gonna change scythes. Rebb aready said.

[GreyEnneract]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

They gonna change scythes. Rebb aready said.

already*
We've seen the proposed changes, if this design is final and not a work-in-progress they've already* failed.