Onslaught: Token/Rep System

[Wolf576]

So onslaught as a mode is a very fun game mode and I want to keep playing it well into the future.

It feels like DE also want this mode to have a lot of longevity by giving it 3% drop rates on certain items on rotation C (20 minutes).

We NEED a token/rep system (ala plaugestar) for this mode instead of a drop table, with the current drop table it has the same 'dead drop' problem that a lot of game modes have

example: I already have kohra and in a 20 minute run of onslaught i end up with 4 parts of her, in this situation i get 0 rewards for the run

example2: I as a player have 0 interest in that peculiar mod but also want the vandal part in rotation C of elite that shares the same drop table/chance, if I end up with 10 copies of the peculiar mod and 0 of the vandal parts it feels like hours upon hours of wasted effort and anti-rewards.

 

The solution to this seems pretty simple, remove the drop table entirely and give use a token/rep system for onslaught, that allows the mode to have much loner longevity and makes it much more rewarding if people can choose the rewards they want to work towards. Doing this also removes the 'getting screwed by RNG' problem a lot of players feel with warframe in general, how many times have people complained about the equinox, ivara, nidus & harrow RNG screwing them over. This also allows players who lack the endgame gear/setups to play the elite onslaught to not be completely locked out of aiming for the vandal weapons.

RNG for some rewards is fine, but it seems like this endless mode could quite easily support a much better system (with already being score based) that is better for both the players and the developers. There can still be a grind factor included for those really good/valuable rewards but its so much better if people can consistently work towards that goal instead of 1 person getting it on release day and another getting it 2 years later because they are unlucky. And when you are done with getting kohra/vandal weapons/percuilar mods (if you care about them) out of the rewards for onslaught... the game mode will stay relevant and rewarding long into the future because of its repeatable rewards without completely worthless drops getting in the way.

Edit: Further thoughts/clarifications

Something I really DONT want to see from this system is a daily rep cap, I want players to be able to play the mode as much as they like and not end up in a situation of 'well thats that done for the day, guess i have to wait for an arbitrary timer to tick down to make more progress'

Plaugestars reward system was really great for this, it gave players an incentive to play this event without limiting the amount of progress a player can make.

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

TL:DR We need a token/rep system for onslaught mode instead of drop tables.

Edited April 22, 2018 by 576f6c6679

[TheBreathOfDeath]

I feel that the radiant relics and endo should stay within onslaught itself as a portal reward while i agree that possibly taking the khora, weapon parts and captura scenes into a token system might be better. I feel this because if they are wanting to add more rewards to the onslaught, that will dilute the loot table and make things such as khora and the weapons parts harder to get. But this to me feels like nezha all over again that khora was going through. Nezha used to be tied to sortie rewards before being moved to the dojo.

[Trichouette]

DE : "We noticed players loved the ambulas event reward system"

Also DE : implement RNG with very bad loot table every time they introduce a new mission type (onslaught / bounties etc...)

 

Token/reputation is always a better solution, but it cut down the grind by a lot for unlucky players.

[Drasiel]

You seem to be forgetting that captura scenes and peculiar mods can be traded. You should be able to get a decent amount of platinum reselling them to people who cannot play onslaught yet or do not want to. As for khora parts every single mission has "dead drops" sometimes you just don't get what is useful to you that's just how rng systems in Warframe are designed to work. 

Considering how small the drop pools are for onslaught and that a reward is guaranteed I don't think it's a system that truly needs a token system. 

[Trichouette]

il y a 1 minute, Drasiel a dit :

Considering how small the drop pools are for onslaught and that a reward is guaranteed I don't think it's a system that truly needs a token system. 

Adding a token system allows a bigger loot table.

Look at plague star event, they made quite a big loot table.

il y a 1 minute, Drasiel a dit :

You seem to be forgetting that captura scenes and peculiar mods can be traded. You should be able to get a decent amount of platinum reselling them to people who cannot play onslaught yet or do not want to.

That's not an argument.

Plats aren't necessary to every player.

[TheKovacs]

Agreed. I have crashed after having "finally" got the peice I was trying to get more times than I care to mention. Its almost like DE have deliberatly left in these bugs so we give up and buy the items..

[Wolf576]

Just now, Drasiel said:

You seem to be forgetting that captura scenes and peculiar mods can be traded. You should be able to get a decent amount of platinum reselling them to people who cannot play onslaught yet or do not want to. As for khora parts every single mission has "dead drops" sometimes you just don't get what is useful to you that's just how rng systems in Warframe are designed to work. 

Considering how small the drop pools are for onslaught and that a reward is guaranteed I don't think it's a system that truly needs a token system. 

and you seem to have not understood my post at all, 'dead drops' are a MASSIVE problem with warframes reward system and have been steadily getting worse and worse, look at it this way, does anyone at all actually play infested salvage once they have nidus, or defection once they have harrow?

Not every player is interested in trading items around, some of us would much rather actually play the game and be rewarded than playing the game, getting something that *might* be worth some plat and then having to spend time not playing the game to swap that crap reward for a reward we can actually make use of.

This gamemode can quite easily be much better in terms of rewarding players way beyond the point that they got kohra/the vandals and a system like that is much better of an incentive to keep players playing the new mode instead of it devolving into 'we bash our head against RNG until we get the good rewards, and then never touch the mode again'.

[TheBreathOfDeath]

im missing 1 piece for khora and this is my stint of good luck cause RNG just has a hate boner for me in this game. Also its possible that they are getting these crashes etc because of a much larger influx of players testing it that gives more data to fix the bugs

[Drasiel]

Just now, Trichouette said:

Adding a token system allows a bigger loot table.

Look at plague star event, they made quite a big loot table.

That's not an argument.

Plats aren't necessary to every player.

No, but most would agree getting plat is better than keeping something you won't use and feel has no purpose. 

Why does it need a bigger loot table? The mode already gives better XP than hydron, better focus than anything outside meta focus farm, potential for upgraded relics, a warframe, unique mods, special eidolon shards and 2 retired guns. The only other thing I could see adding is a legendary core as adding in too many other things will turn onslaught into the new "required mode" I don't think it's meant to replace the rest of the game. 

 

2 minutes ago, 576f6c6679 said:

and you seem to have not understood my post at all, 'dead drops' are a MASSIVE problem with warframes reward system and have been steadily getting worse and worse, look at it this way, does anyone at all actually play infested salvage once they have nidus, or defection once they have harrow?

Not every player is interested in trading items around, some of us would much rather actually play the game and be rewarded than playing the game, getting something that *might* be worth some plat and then having to spend time not playing the game to swap that crap reward for a reward we can actually make use of.

This gamemode can quite easily be much better in terms of rewarding players way beyond the point that they got kohra/the vandals and a system like that is much better of an incentive to keep players playing the new mode instead of it devolving into 'we bash our head against RNG until we get the good rewards, and then never touch the mode again'.

The only true dead drops in onslaught are the khora parts after building her and that makes this Mode the least punishing for dead drops in the entire game. I don't think the only issue in salvage and defection is loot, the game modes themselves tend to not be seen as fun by the community and they are much slower and punishing to solo Players. It's the trifecta of oh God I don't want to play those not just loot. 

If you don't want to trade that's fine, but it doesn't negate the fact that trading is an option to turn rewards you don't like into something that is universally useful. 

You are kind of ignoring a large section of the community that are not in it for just loot but for challenge and endurance runs. This mode especially the weekly challenge gives those players a nice outlet. The mode itself outside of loot is also just plain fun almost dynasty warriors beat up hordes style gameplay I strongly doubt it will just be shelved by many players.

 

[Trichouette]

il y a 11 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

No, but most would agree getting plat is better than keeping something you won't use and feel has no purpose. 

Plat don't have purpose for me either...

il y a 11 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

Why does it need a bigger loot table? The mode already gives better XP than hydron, better focus than anything outside meta focus farm, potential for upgraded relics, a warframe, unique mods, special eidolon shards and 2 retired guns. The only other thing I could see adding is a legendary core as adding in too many other things will turn onslaught into the new "required mode" I don't think it's meant to replace the rest of the game. 

You said " Considering how small the drop pools are for onslaught "

I'm just saying, a token system allows for a bigger loot table.

You could even add things that seem useless for many players but that some others would love to have.

Credit bundle / medallions / ressource bundle / gems etc etc...

 

The point of a rep/token system is to allow the player to grind while being rewarded with something he needs.

Players don't mind playing for hours as long as they're 100% sure of getting what they want, which is why ambulas event worked fine even though it was a pain to grind.

il y a 13 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

You are kind of ignoring a large section of the community that are not in it for just loot but for challenge and endurance runs.

What does this have to do with being rewarded ? If players don't care about the rewards, changing the way they work won't do much to them.

[Wolf576]

20 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

the only true dead drops in onslaught are the khora parts after building her and that makes this Mode the least punishing for dead drops in the entire game. I don't think the only issue in salvage and defection is loot, the game modes themselves tend to not be seen as fun by the community and they are much slower and punishing to solo Players. It's the trifecta of oh God I don't want to play those not just loot. 

If you don't want to trade that's fine, but it doesn't negate the fact that trading is an option to turn rewards you don't like into something that is universally useful. 

You are kind of ignoring a large section of the community that are not in it for just loot but for challenge and endurance runs. This mode especially the weekly challenge gives those players a nice outlet. The mode itself outside of loot is also just plain fun almost dynasty warriors beat up hordes style gameplay I strongly doubt it will just be shelved by many players.

 

Thats just straight up false, what defines a dead drop for a player depends entirely on the player.

as an example for me as player I have 0 need of endo and focus so those 2 'rewards' are completely and utterly worthless to me (not going to to mention that fact that 5k focus as a 15 minute reward from a mode that you will earn 50k+ focus on the path that B rotation is insulting).

peculiar mods and capture scenes are worth nothing to me as a player, anytime i get one of those its a 'well i guess i got nothing again, better luck next time'.

as for the vandal weapons and kohra, once I have acquired them once their value falls to nothing for me as well.

 

So of the rewards the only thing that is actually a repeatable and valuable reward after getting it the first time is the relics for me specifically as a player. Im yet to see a reason why we cannot have a token system that would be strictly better for every player.

 

as far as the whole 'hurr durr you can trade X for Y amount of platinum', honestly at that point why even bother giving us the S#&$ty intermediate reward, just drop actual platinum for the player. (yes im aware this will never happen but its the only way the 'oh thats worth Y platinum' is ever going to not boil down to 'stop actually playing the game to trade items with people'

 

Edit:

On further thought even the relics are a 'dead drop' to me, but at least they feel more rewarding than endo I know im never going to need.

Edited April 22, 2018 by 576f6c6679

[Drasiel]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Plat don't have purpose for me either...

You said " Considering how small the drop pools are for onslaught "

I'm just saying, a token system allows for a bigger loot table.

You could even add things that seem useless for many players but that some others would love to have.

Credit bundle / medallions / ressource bundle / gems etc etc...

 

The point of a rep/token system is to allow the player to grind while being rewarded with something he needs.

Players don't mind playing for hours as long as they're 100% sure of getting what they want, which is why ambulas event worked fine even though it was a pain to grind.

What does this have to do with being rewarded ? If players don't care about the rewards, changing the way they work won't do much to them.

But adding those things especially with a token system will make onslaught the primary choice for grinding because it's a one stop shop, unless the amounts are so small as to be negligible. Adding credit bundles detracts from darksectors and index as credit sources, adding medallions detracts from syndicate missions, adding gems detracts from plains mining, resource bundles eh actually I'm fine with that one because cryotic and excavation can go die in a goddamn tire fire.

What endurance runs have to do with being rewarded is that you guys are heavily focusing on the loot as the only value in the new mode: bad luck with loot = no drive to play it. However, there are players who are not loot focuses and will enjoy the mode and play it doe other reasons. It's important to keep that in mind so one doesn't devolve into hyperbole. 

10 minutes ago, 576f6c6679 said:

Thats just straight up false, what defines a dead drop for a player depends entirely on the player.

as an example for me as player I have 0 need of endo and focus so those 2 'rewards' are completely and utterly worthless to me (not going to to mention that fact that 5k focus as a 15 minute reward from a mode that you will earn 50k+ focus on the path that B rotation is insulting).

peculiar mods and capture scenes are worth nothing to me as a player, anytime i get one of those its a 'well i guess i got nothing again, better luck next time'.

as for the vandal weapons and kohra, once I have acquired them once their value falls to nothing for me as well.

 

So of the rewards the only thing that is actually a repeatable and valuable reward after getting it the first time is the relics for me specifically as a player. Im yet to see a reason why we cannot have a token system that would be strictly better for every player.

 

as far as the whole 'hurr durr you can trade X for Y amount of platinum', honestly at that point why even bother giving us the S#&$ty intermediate reward, just drop actual platinum for the player. (yes im aware this will never happen but its the only way the 'oh thats worth Y platinum' is ever going to not boil down to 'stop actually playing the game to trade items with people'

You seem mad, maybe you should have a glass of water or somerhing. We aren't enemies we are just sharing our opinions neither of which invalidates the other. 

That's fair, for me a dead drop is something I can only exchange for credits. Clearly you have a much more restrictive view of this than I so the Mode will always be less rewarding to you. Such is life. 

I'm sorry but hurr durr you can trade for plat is part of the game and some people very much consider trading to be gameplay. Just because you don't like it or find it unappealing does not invalidate it as an option for the wider populous. From where I'm sitting you not wanting to trade is a you problem not a reward problem. Believe me though I understand this, in path of exile I haaaaaaate trading with a passion that rivals the fire of a newborn sun but I had to make peace with the fact that not trading meant I was stuck with garbage uniques that didn't work for my class instead of rewards I could actually use. That was a me problem: I made the choice not to trade and was limited by it. 

[Trichouette]

il y a 11 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

Adding credit bundles detracts from darksectors and index as credit sources, adding medallions detracts from syndicate missions, adding gems detracts from plains mining, resource bundles eh actually I'm fine with that one because cryotic and excavation can go die in a goddamn tire fire.

It doesn't if you put the right amount of grind/reward, instead, it offers another way to obtain these once you're fed up with the primal way.

Sick of grinding index ? Play a bit of onslaught for some credits.

il y a 12 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

But adding those things especially with a token system will make onslaught the primary choice for grinding because it's a one stop shop,

Or you can keep the token shop's inventory small. You can do whatever you want because it's very flexible.

Other features like sorties or ostron/quills rep could do the exact same, that offers even more way to obtain what you want and it diversify the grind, which is good to avoid burn out.

il y a 13 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

What endurance runs have to do with being rewarded is that you guys are heavily focusing on the loot as the only value in the new mode: bad luck with loot = no drive to play it. However, there are players who are not loot focuses and will enjoy the mode and play it doe other reasons. It's important to keep that in mind so one doesn't devolve into hyperbole. 

Again as I said, players who care about the game mode and not the rewards wouldn't feel the difference.

On the other hand, players who are here solely for the reward can grind a very specific amount of waves and get what they want.

It's a win-win, you have grind which makes players stay, but without the "i'm unlucky and will never obtain what I seek" feeling.

[Wolf576]

15 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

You seem mad, maybe you should have a glass of water or somerhing. We aren't enemies we are just sharing our opinions neither of which invalidates the other. 

That's fair, for me a dead drop is something I can only exchange for credits. Clearly you have a much more restrictive view of this than I so the Mode will always be less rewarding to you. Such is life. 

I'm sorry but hurr durr you can trade for plat is part of the game and some people very much consider trading to be gameplay. Just because you don't like it or find it unappealing does not invalidate it as an option for the wider populous. From where I'm sitting you not wanting to trade is a you problem not a reward problem. Believe me though I understand this, in path of exile I haaaaaaate trading with a passion that rivals the fire of a newborn sun but I had to make peace with the fact that not trading meant I was stuck with garbage uniques that didn't work for my class instead of rewards I could actually use. That was a me problem: I made the choice not to trade and was limited by it. 

Im not 'mad' at all, annoyed that the rewards are completely lackluster and the game mode boils down to another 'play it for 10 hours to 1000 years till you got through this latest S#&$show of a RNG grind' to get the mastery fodder and then never touch it again.

[Drasiel]

2 hours ago, Trichouette said:

It doesn't if you put the right amount of grind/reward, instead, it offers another way to obtain these once you're fed up with the primal way.

Sick of grinding index ? Play a bit of onslaught for some credits.

Or you can keep the token shop's inventory small. You can do whatever you want because it's very flexible.

Other features like sorties or ostron/quills rep could do the exact same, that offers even more way to obtain what you want and it diversify the grind, which is good to avoid burn out.

Again as I said, players who care about the game mode and not the rewards wouldn't feel the difference.

On the other hand, players who are here solely for the reward can grind a very specific amount of waves and get what they want.

It's a win-win, you have grind which makes players stay, but without the "i'm unlucky and will never obtain what I seek" feeling.

Is it though? a lot of player retention in warframe is based on rng and the dopamine effect from expected reward. Essentially the game uses kinder skinner box techniques to maintain interest and drive in players, turn it into just a pure grind and you lose the spikes of excitement that keep players motivated. This occured back in the gradivus dilemma where you had to grind out hundreds of invasions missions (sets of 5) to get your guaranteed weapon at the end and all it succeeded in doing was burning out players and making invasions untolerable for players for almost a year.

Generally speaking trade is the solution to personal bad luck barring vanilla frames that are untradeable

2 hours ago, 576f6c6679 said:

Im not 'mad' at all, annoyed that the rewards are completely lackluster and the game mode boils down to another 'play it for 10 hours to 1000 years till you got through this latest S#&$show of a RNG grind' to get the mastery fodder and then never touch it again.

Lackluster for you not necessarily for everyone else in the game. If we can't tell you what is a wasted reward you can't tell us what a good reward is.

[Trichouette]

Il y a 3 heures, Drasiel a dit :

Is it though? a lot of player retention in warframe is based on rng and the dopamine effect from expected reward. Essentially the game uses kinder skinner box techniques to maintain interest and drive in players, turn it into just a pure grind and you lose the spikes of excitement that keep players motivated.

Well instead of the joy of getting a random reward, you have this feeling of accomplishment because you worked toward your goal while being 100% sure that your valuable time has been properly used. (instead of wasting hours fighting RNG)

Il y a 3 heures, Drasiel a dit :

This occured back in the gradivus dilemma where you had to grind out hundreds of invasions missions (sets of 5) to get your guaranteed weapon at the end and all it succeeded in doing was burning out players and making invasions untolerable for players for almost a year.

There is a difference between "fixed goal with a reasonable amount of grind" and "fixed goal with an insane amount of grind".

If you find a right amount between "how many waves you want the players to complete to get that one loot" and "how many waves players are ok to grind in order to get that one loot", then you're fine.

Look at ambulas event, it was a huge amount of grind, just like onslaught you kept changing map, but unlike onslaught, you were 100% sure of getting what you wanted. And in the end, each reward had a decent amount of grind behind it (in my opinion).

 

I know far more players who are ok with spending hours in missions for a 100% chance of reward compared to players who just expect RNG to work in their favor at some point in their life.

And yeah sure you can still trade and get plats and buy the stuff you wanted, but it's not as interesting as obtaining it or working toward obtaining it.

 

I wouldn't mind DE telling me "you have to complete 30 waves for each part of khora you want" instead of "hey keep playing and maybe luck will be on your side. At some point".

(even though I wouldn't farm khora because she looks like hot garbage, but that's just my opinion)

Edited April 22, 2018 by Trichouette