Melee weapons should be melee

[Inquizitor]

18 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

If u want to kill everything "meta"... Then might as well shut down the server. Every single time the meta is nerfed... The community creates a new meta.

Reach mods should not be nerfed. Many players such as myself use those mods to give incredibly short range weapons a bump up. Dark split dual swords, fragor prime, nami skyla, obex, tekko, venka, machete... Nerfing those mods would kill more non-meta weapons than the meta weapons ur so afraid of.

Tbh, the range mods (Reach) should be replaced with additive value that would not change. Instead of +% per rank, it would instead give 0.1m range per each rank. This way, a normal Reach would add 0.4m, while Primed one would give 1.1m range. It doesnt have to be 0.1m, it could be some other value. But weapons like daggers, which have tiny base range, even Primed Reach adds just a very slight added range, while weapons with massive range and high disposition (Scoliac) benefits much more, which is the core issue here.

Imo the reach should never have existed in the first place, but since it exists already, i wont ask for its removal, but rather...a re-design so it can be useful on every melee weapon and also not overpowered at the same time.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, Inquizitor said:

Tbh, the range mods (Reach) should be replaced with additive value that would not change. Instead of +% per rank, it would instead give 0.1m range per each rank. This way, a normal Reach would add 0.4m, while Primed one would give 1.1m range. It doesnt have to be 0.1m, it could be some other value. But weapons like daggers, which have tiny base range, even Primed Reach adds just a very slight added range, while weapons with massive range and high disposition (Scoliac) benefits much more, which is the core issue here.

Imo the reach should never have existed in the first place, but since it exists already, i wont ask for its removal, but rather...a re-design so it can be useful on every melee weapon and also not overpowered at the same time.

It wasn't an issue till rivens. Drop positive and negative range modifiers from rivens. Problem solved.

[MadMaximoff]

1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Stances, combos and parrying were worthless from the very start because they required you to gimp yourself by putting your gun away, they effectively stunlocked you by forcing you into an animation chain and they required fiddly inputs to work right (see: pause or hold combos, which are a royal pain in the arse in a hectic fight). By comparison, quick melee is always there and has much less animation lock, allowing you to disengage or reposition MUCH faster. Some weapons even allow you to actively run while swinging them (polearms for sure, others might do so as well) which makes them so very nice to use. This is why I like them - the fluidity.

My favourite weapon is the Lesion, because it hits fast, has a good range (the shortest range of any polearm, but it's enough for me), you can move at good speed while swinging and the quick melee animations are fluid, consistent (inconsistent would be staves: they have a 2-hit sequence in quick melee, but the first hit has half the range of the second) and have nice hitboxes. I don't even have maiming strike equipped on it, preferring to swing while running using a viral/electric + shattering impact to stunlock and cripple the enemies.

Then you wouldn't mind maiming strike removed if you don't use it, I won't use it out of principle, I find OP stuff leads to burning out from boredom quickly, it's fun to use all the different weapons that others consider gimped and finding a cost effective way to make them somewhat viable.

I've got the current "OP" weapons and frames, sure, I just prefer not to use them unless I really need to

[(PSN)anansispiderPS]

12 hours ago, Inquizitor said:

Tbh, the range mods (Reach) should be replaced with additive value that would not change. Instead of +% per rank, it would instead give 0.1m range per each rank. This way, a normal Reach would add 0.4m, while Primed one would give 1.1m range. It doesnt have to be 0.1m, it could be some other value. But weapons like daggers, which have tiny base range, even Primed Reach adds just a very slight added range, while weapons with massive range and high disposition (Scoliac) benefits much more, which is the core issue here.

Imo the reach should never have existed in the first place, but since it exists already, i wont ask for its removal, but rather...a re-design so it can be useful on every melee weapon and also not overpowered at the same time.

This makes SO much sense tbh.

[Poseidal]

I was about to suggest making reach mods a flat value rather than % but people have beat me to it.

Kills 2 birds with one stone too, as it makes it useful to put on low range weapons as well as dealing with the current issues.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Poseidal

[DoomFruit]

13 hours ago, MadMaximoff said:

Then you wouldn't mind maiming strike removed if you don't use it, I won't use it out of principle, I find OP stuff leads to burning out from boredom quickly, it's fun to use all the different weapons that others consider gimped and finding a cost effective way to make them somewhat viable.

I've got the current "OP" weapons and frames, sure, I just prefer not to use them unless I really need to

I would not miss it, no (I prefer status builds to crit builds, anyway). What I would object to is having my weapon's reach reduced.

[----Fenrir----]

The only thing nerfing the range of melee weapons would achieve, is getting even more people to use AOE ranged weapons like the Atterax (Amprex I mean lol) or the Ignis.

Edited April 26, 2018 by ----Fenrir----

[cptSmollett]

4 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

AOE ranged weapons like the Atterax

Good one

[Get_Singed]

Sorry, but melee weapons are still melee regardless of your opinion on the matter. Having a relatively long reach does not make them not melee. Rather, melee weapons need to have a long range in this game to be able to kill anything with all the extremely powerful guns in the game that would otherwise simply kill every enemy without a range limit before the melee user can get in range to attack. In reality, whichever player gets out ahead of the others is likely to be the player who kills all the enemies, doesn't matter if he uses melee or ranged damage. Whip spinspam may be a bit excessive but calling for range nerfs which will affect ALL melee weapons is not the answer.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Most important thing that should be nerfed with Maiming Strike: the way it turns any weapon into a crit machine with Blood Rush. 

Then nerf range mods. A weapon that can hit through walls in a 10-20m radius in nonsense, and don't tell me it's "air" or something. If it was air, it would work like Seismic Palm. 

il y a 32 minutes, Get_Singed a dit :

Sorry, but melee weapons are still melee regardless of your opinion on the matter. Having a relatively long reach does not make them not melee. Rather, melee weapons need to have a long range in this game to be able to kill anything with all the extremely powerful guns in the game that would otherwise simply kill every enemy without a range limit before the melee user can get in range to attack.

What the OP is saying is that spamming one attack is not what "melee" means. Melee should be close combat weapons, not AoE rooms cleaners. Irl, you don't use a bow if the guy is 2 meters away, nor do you use a knife when the opponent is 80 feet from where you are. Warframe might not be the most realistic game ever (especialy when you look at how peculiars mods ruin all the seriousness of the game), but it's still closer to real life than some anime where people can slash buildings in two. 

Melee isn't supposed to be the equivalent of guns, but an alternative when enemies are too close for your guns to be effective. Everything has pros and cons, and one of the cons of melees is the range, unless you add 165% or more with mods on weapons with 6-7m base range like whips or Polearms.

DE worked on blocking/parry mechanics, combos, stances and a LOT of animations. All of this is almost completely unused and unfixed because people aren't using any. They prefer the cheesy/effortless way of "playing" because (most of the time) they want to maximize the time/reward ratio rather than actual fun. 

 

And besides, if some frames such as Ember are being nerfed to the underground because they were too cheesy for low/mid level content, why should things that can cheese high level content be left untouched? 

[Get_Singed]

27 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Most important thing that should be nerfed with Maiming Strike: the way it turns any weapon into a crit machine with Blood Rush. 

Then nerf range mods. A weapon that can hit through walls in a 10-20m radius in nonsense, and don't tell me it's "air" or something. If it was air, it would work like Seismic Palm. 

What the OP is saying is that spamming one attack is not what "melee" means. Melee should be close combat weapons, not AoE rooms cleaners. Irl, you don't use a bow if the guy is 2 meters away, nor do you use a knife when the opponent is 80 feet from where you are. Warframe might not be the most realistic game ever (especialy when you look at how peculiars mods ruin all the seriousness of the game), but it's still closer to real life than some anime where people can slash buildings in two. 

Melee isn't supposed to be the equivalent of guns, but an alternative when enemies are too close for your guns to be effective. Everything has pros and cons, and one of the cons of melees is the range, unless you add 165% or more with mods on weapons with 6-7m base range like whips or Polearms.

DE worked on blocking/parry mechanics, combos, stances and a LOT of animations. All of this is almost completely unused and unfixed because people aren't using any. They prefer the cheesy/effortless way of "playing" because (most of the time) they want to maximize the time/reward ratio rather than actual fun. 

 

And besides, if some frames such as Ember are being nerfed to the underground because they were too cheesy for low/mid level content, why should things that can cheese high level content be left untouched? 

In Warframe, there is no such thing as a range where enemies are too close for guns to be effective, unless it's a weapon that can inflict self damage. And who are you to say that melee isn't supposed to be the equivalent of guns? Do you really think flipping space ninjas should only be using guns? The game markets itself as space NINJAS not space GUNNERS, of course they want melee to be fun and an equally viable option to using guns. I remember way back when melee was considered entirely unviable and DE had to make changes to make melee weapons viable because they DO want players to have the choice of playing using guns OR melee, not guns being superior to melee hands down. Melee is not meant to be the last resort you use when enemies get close, at least not in this game. It's meant to be another option for a playstyle. While I would love for them to make some changes to melee gameplay to make it more interactive than just button mashing or spinspamming for the most part, nerfing melee weapon range simply isn't the answer.

[DoomFruit]

4 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

What the OP is saying is that spamming one attack is not what "melee" means. Melee should be close combat weapons, not AoE rooms cleaners. Irl, you don't use a bow if the guy is 2 meters away, nor do you use a knife when the opponent is 80 feet from where you are. Warframe might not be the most realistic game ever (especialy when you look at how peculiars mods ruin all the seriousness of the game), but it's still closer to real life than some anime where people can slash buildings in two.

In real life, you don't use a bow - full stop. Guns made them completely obsolete for a reason. Getting shot just once or twice also tends to get you incapacitated, perhaps we should add that as well? You also don't have the ability to wallhop, to cast lightning from your fingertips, or to freeze time by stomping on the floor.

[Buttaface]

Didn't get the normal amount of "muh killz" by pressing 4 (or shooting muh 2k Tib riven) because the maiming whip in the team -moved-... -tactically-... to the mobs, and executed a timed dual stroke attack with range falloff shorter than any shotgun in the game... from 100% to 0%... over and over... instead of using cheese frame powers, pressing 1-3 keys to see whole maps die. So let's nerf MS and melee range right this minute! Gotcha.

Where are all the "nerf Peacemaker" threads because I can't get to the mobs before Mesa AIMBOT (or Banshee or Mag or Saryn or Equinox or...) kills them 40m away? Somehow we don't see too many of those threads.

I use MS on a S Lecta for farming focus and other farming. In the zaw/exodia age of WF, there are now several generally more powerful melee builds than MS that rely on stance combos rather than MS for fast killing with greater CC and other variable benefits of exodia arcanes (for example, see "exodia hunt" on a very fast zaw polearm and Twirling Spire).

In many games, melee offers far superior DPS in exchange for moving to closer range than ranged weapon kill distance, and that range is usually enhanced in some ways over what one would consider IRL melee weapons. Melee in WF is in a pretty good place atm, balanced and in need of no further buffs or nerfs. IMO, the person/people who design the stances and other newer aspects of WF melee such as zaws and exodia are design geniuses, top talent in need of a raise! It is one of the best, most polished aspects of a game that could use much work in other areas.

But sure, I'll hop on board the MS/melee range nerf bandwagon, just as soon as ALL AOE frame skills are capped at 20m range and aimbot skills removed from the game entirely. Lemme know when this happens and I'll sign right up.

P.S. I took my MS S Lecta spin build to an Eidolon fight (and lots of other boss engagements... and lots of general missions on the -many- melee unfriendly maps in the game). Didn't do too well.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Buttaface

[OrochiFuror]

Simple solution, lower whip slide damage down into the ground. Whips should be single target weapons.

[taiiat]

past any Melee Weapons in particular, i agree in general because <5% of the Melee Weapons in the game actually are Melee Weapons. instead, they are a limited Range explosion.

almost zero Melee Weapons actually swing and hit Enemies with deliberation, instead they have some mixture of randomly flailing around you in a circle (or partial circle). that isn't Melee. that's a short Range explosive.

despite how much of a Gun nut i am, i also adore well constructed Melee Combat. there's one or two Stances or so that function as Melee Combat. basically all of the rest are the aforementioned explosions. lots of Development Time spent making a lot of Animations and yet... failing to achieve the goal of Melee Weapon.
the 'bad copy of Street Fighter' that is Stances doesn't help either. unreliable, constricting on creativity for both the Player and Digital Extremes, susceptible to Mods affecting the usage of.... just so many bad things.
i've pointed out many a time that Melee in Warframe can easily be a two button Melee system, can also easily be a three button Melee system, and can be a 4 button Melee system with some shifting around of the controls. what does that mean? that means Warframe can have atleast 3 dedicated buttons to Melee without adding any new Keybinds.

On 4/22/2018 at 5:58 PM, MadMaximoff said:

It defeats the entire point of all the work put into stances, combos and blocking/parrying, because you don't need any of it, because you can just spam slide with maiming strike and profit.

for the 23932589632765th time - Blood Rush is the entire problem there. Meme Strike is a mild, niche Mod if Blood Rush was to have its math fixed.
Blood Rush breaks everything Crits related with all things Crits related. everything. which means it includes much more than Meme Strike.

On 4/25/2018 at 2:38 PM, Inquizitor said:

Tbh, the range mods (Reach) should be replaced with additive value that would not change. Instead of +% per rank, it would instead give 0.1m range per each rank.

the problem with that - is it literally cannot work. the Flat Value that makes sense for... a Dagger, is literally useless for something naturally larger. you can't provide a Flat Value that makes sense for both very short and very long Range Melee Weapons. you're either going to make Daggers into mini Whips or everything with large Range exactly the same as they are now.

a Multiplicative Percentage is the most practical way to handle it.

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

there are now several generally more powerful melee builds than MS that rely on stance combos rather than MS for fast killing with greater CC and other variable benefits of exodia arcanes

there actually aren't. across Zaws and Whips alike, Blood Rush + Condition Overload is objectively the most powerful Loadout.
or just... for all Melee Weapons. just about every Melee Weapon objectively performs better using both of them.

Edited April 29, 2018 by taiiat

[Buttaface]

16 hours ago, taiiat said:

there actually aren't. across Zaws and Whips alike, Blood Rush + Condition Overload is objectively the most powerful Loadout.
or just... for all Melee Weapons. just about every Melee Weapon objectively performs better using both of them.

My claim, should you choose to reread what it actually states instead of quoting me and then putting words in my mouth, was that certain stance-based builds, with the addition of exodia arcanes, surpass Maiming Strike in both killing power and utility generally at higher levels of mobs (well above 100, MS whips and polearms still win below that threshold). There are some hypothetical outliers in 1 or 2 weapons with very high disposition "perfect storm" rivens. I didn't make any claim about Blood Rush and Condition Overload.

And no "Blood Rush + Condition Overload" is -not- "objectively" the most powerful loadout  for... "all Melee Weapons," and "just about every melee weapon" does -not- "objectively perform better using both Blood Rush and Condition Overload." Condition Overload is a waste of space on weapons with low status chance and no forced procs in the stance unless using some other means to inflict procs. Blood Rush is a waste in situations where the combo counter cannot be maintained with long intervals between mobs or resets, POE bounty running for one example among many, or when there is long range CC in the team. I would agree that -either- BR or CO are usually part of a standard build on a particular weapon, and -often- both work well together.

@thread There is no reason whatsoever to nerf any aspect of melee in WF atm. Melee combat requires moving, swinging, building power over time, and getting far closer than gun range in a game where 90% of the content is trivialized by long range frame aoe and aimbot powers activated by one or two button presses; and a large part of the remainder, boss fights, don't involve much melee if any. THAT'S the main point and answer to the repetitive nerf melee threads, not surprised that no one addresses it, they can't. In certain specific uses and maps, melee performs better. Most of the game, though, including the current end game (Eidolon Fights), is a ranged game. There has -never- been a "melee raid" and dollars to donuts there won't be any endgame "melee bosses" coming up.

Be honest, nerf-herders, and assess how many melee players you see out and about in WF? As a matter of fact and not opinion, it's a tiny minority. When you start to see teams full of whippers, get back to us. Until then, just another "whip user ran ahead and stole muh killz!" inanity among many.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Buttaface

[Buttaface]

17 hours ago, taiiat said:

past any Melee Weapons in particular, i agree in general because <5% of the Melee Weapons in the game actually are Melee Weapons. instead, they are a limited Range explosion.

Missed the above nugget, which is simply not true. Daggers, swords, dual swords, tonfas, sword and board, nunchaku, etc. short range melee weapons are in fact -not- <5% of melee weapons, probably a majority. Melee weapons with "high" range, but still shorter than ANY ranged weapon by far, include whips and hybrids, -some- polearms, -some- staves, and a couple of heavy blades.

-One- whip, Scoliac, has high enough disposition to get "high" melee range, and if one wants to spend $100 of real money to get that range, go right ahead. I rarely ever see anyone using a Scoliac as their primary weapon, almost never see whip and blade. -Two- staves have high enough disposition, -three- polearms, and I see those even less frequently. Zaws can get fairly high range with their "3" disposition... about half the range of the shortest falloff shotgun.

So did you just not think before posting the 5% claim?

Edited April 29, 2018 by Buttaface

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Missed the above nugget, which is simply not true. Daggers, swords, dual swords, tonfas, sword and board, nunchaku, etc. short range melee weapons are in fact -not- <5% of melee weapons, probably a majority. Melee weapons with "high" range, but still shorter than ANY ranged weapon by far, include whips and hybrids, -some- polearms, -some- staves, and a couple of heavy blades.

• Stinging Thorn and Pointed Wind work okay as a Melee Weapon, but does still leave something to be desired. they've plenty of explosion style swings.
• Iron Phoenix does nicely for what it has (but is unfinished like 50% of the Stances in the game >.>), Vengeful Revenant might but i haven't had the opportunity to try it yet. Crimson Dervish and Swooping Falcon are a complete fail.
• Crossing Snakes and Swiling Tiger are a complete fail. Carving Mantis is somewhere around a D+.
• Sovereign Outcast is basically a D-. Gemini Cross is a complete fail.
• Eleventh Storm is somewhere around a D+, Final Harbinger is a complete fail.
• Atlantis Vulcan is another D-.
• i had high hopes for Cyclone Kraken but it ended up being a D-. Sundering Weave is a complete fail ofcourse.
• Tranquil Cleave is somewhere around a C-. Decisive Judgement is somewhere around a B+. Blind Justice is a complete fail or an F+.
• Vulpine Mask is a complete fail.
• Defiled Snapdragon is somewhere around an A.
  it has different tools for different situations, it's extremely flexible. uncharacteristically excellent.
• Slicing Feathers is either a complete fail or a D- if we consider that a lot of randomly flailing AoE is thematically appropriate for the Weapon.
• High Noon is somewhere around a C-. Bullet Dance is somewhere around a C+ to a B-.
• Gnashing Payara is somewhere around a D+ because it only has one Animation String. Sinking Talon and Spinning Needle are somewhere around a C- to a C. 
• Seismic Palm is somewhere between a D+ and a C-. because the Animations are extremely similar. Fracturing Wind is slightly better but shares much of the same problem. Gaia's Tragedy is somewhere around a B, the Animations could be varied a little more but they are distinctly different and so can serve different purposes.
• Grim Fury is a D- to a complete fail for lack of Animation variety and just lots of spam. Brutal Tide is basically just random breakdancing (the exact sort of thing that's the problem), either a complete fail or just total disappointment.
• i don't even know what to say about Four Riders. Vermilion Storm is somewhere around a C- for repeated Animations and a lot of too similar AoE ones. Malcious Raptor feels effectively identical to Vermilion Storm.
• Shimmering Blight is a complete fail, and it never got finished anyways. Bleeding Willow is like Shimmering Blight but with a bit more Mobility... maybe an F+? Twirling Spire is more my style (deliberate actions), but Sydon is the only Polearm that i could consider to be worth using the Animations for since it's the only one with a good mixture of Crit and Status (since Berserker would be necessary for me)... but it doesn't have Slash to speak of so meh.
• Clashing Forest and Flailing Branch are sortof passable, with a bit of their Animations having deliberation, but also a lot more random AoE. they also never got finished.
• Reaping Spiral is a complete fail. Stalking Fan is somewhere between a C+ and a B-. some AoEness makes sense for Scythes but it also has some deliberation, it does alright.
• Cleaving Whirlwind is a complete fail. Tempo Royale is a complete fail. Rending Crane has the right idea(call it a C-), but the Animations are a too similar and feels just partially unfinished.
• Shattering Storm is somewhere around a C-. Crushing Ruin is somewhere around a C+. the Animations are a bit too similar for both. if you mixed the two Stances together you'd have the materials to make one really good one...
• Gleaming Talon and Astral Twilight are actually both somewhere around a B+. one is aimed towards Single Target and the other towards Mobility and crowds, though both is also capable of the reverse side.
  in other words they're uncharacteristically good options with each other. two choices that are both good.
• i think everyone knows that Burning Wasp and Coiling Viper are complete failures.
• and lastly, Exalted Blade is just a Machine Gun with no reason to do any of the Animations unless you're using Chromatic Blade, Hysteria has no reason to do anything but Slide or Charge Attacks.

you can tally up how many of those are actually good for being a Melee Weapon (probably anything that's C+ or higher) yourself, i can't be bothered.
Stances that never got finished no matter how good the Animations they do have might be, can't be considered good because they're... just not finished, they're missing most of their Animations.

i rate Melee Weapons by being a Melee Weapon, not by their Range nor how high the DPS Multipliers of the Animations are. the Animations are the #1 most important part of Melee Weapons.

[sixmille]

Il y a 11 heures, Buttaface a dit :

My claim, should you choose to reread what it actually states instead of quoting me and then putting words in my mouth, was that certain stance-based builds, with the addition of exodia arcanes, surpass Maiming Strike in both killing power and utility generally at higher levels of mobs (well above 100, MS whips and polearms still win below that threshold). There are some hypothetical outliers in 1 or 2 weapons with very high disposition "perfect storm" rivens. I didn't make any claim about Blood Rush and Condition Overload.

And no "Blood Rush + Condition Overload" is -not- "objectively" the most powerful loadout  for... "all Melee Weapons," and "just about every melee weapon" does -not- "objectively perform better using both Blood Rush and Condition Overload." Condition Overload is a waste of space on weapons with low status chance and no forced procs in the stance unless using some other means to inflict procs. Blood Rush is a waste in situations where the combo counter cannot be maintained with long intervals between mobs or resets, POE bounty running for one example among many, or when there is long range CC in the team. I would agree that -either- BR or CO are usually part of a standard build on a particular weapon, and -often- both work well together.

@thread There is no reason whatsoever to nerf any aspect of melee in WF atm. Melee combat requires moving, swinging, building power over time, and getting far closer than gun range in a game where 90% of the content is trivialized by long range frame aoe and aimbot powers activated by one or two button presses; and a large part of the remainder, boss fights, don't involve much melee if any. THAT'S the main point and answer to the repetitive nerf melee threads, not surprised that no one addresses it, they can't. In certain specific uses and maps, melee performs better. Most of the game, though, including the current end game (Eidolon Fights), is a ranged game. There has -never- been a "melee raid" and dollars to donuts there won't be any endgame "melee bosses" coming up.

Be honest, nerf-herders, and assess how many melee players you see out and about in WF? As a matter of fact and not opinion, it's a tiny minority. When you start to see teams full of whippers, get back to us. Until then, just another "whip user ran ahead and stole muh killz!" inanity among many.

It's a package. "Spirit" damage from ridiculous range stacking on whips or polearms and AoE nuke frames needs to be hit with the good old nerf hammer.

Edited April 30, 2018 by sixmille

[Buttaface]

17 hours ago, sixmille said:

It's a package. "Spirit" damage from ridiculous range stacking on whips or polearms and AoE nuke frames needs to be hit with the good old nerf hammer.

No, they don't. No, it's not a package. Things that don't require aiming and moving to clear maps, passive play that robs others of actually playing the game, need nerfing.

Active play that involves moving to mobs, aiming/swinging and parkour are just fine as is, no matter how powerful.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Buttaface

[Buttaface]

19 hours ago, taiiat said:

• ...

You needed to simply post "my claim that <5% of melee weapons in the game are actually melee weapons was an extreme exaggeration" instead of posting a long wall of text that I didn't bother reading.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Buttaface

[taiiat]

5 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

You needed to simply post "my claim that <5% of melee weapons in the game are actually melee weapons was an extreme exaggeration" instead of posting a long wall of text that I didn't bother reading.

if you're going to get your panties bunched over whether the number might be slightly higher or lower, that's your deal. i gave you an explanation but you decided you didn't care enough to partake. if you don't care, then why get involved.

[sixmille]

il y a 28 minutes, Buttaface a dit :

No, they don't. No, it's not a package. Things that don't require aiming and moving to clear maps, passive play that robs others of actually playing the game, need nerfing.

Active play that involves moving to mobs, aiming/swinging and parkour are just fine as is, no matter how powerful.

How come, long range whips and polearms require aiming now. That's new.

[Buttaface]

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

if you're going to get your panties bunched over whether the number might be slightly higher or lower, that's your deal. i gave you an explanation but you decided you didn't care enough to partake. if you don't care, then why get involved.

No, you made an absurd statement, are now doubling down on it, the kind of ridiculous exaggeration that when things get nerfed, I scratch my head and wonder why... then I come to fhe forums and see why. People talking out of their ass over and over.

[Buttaface]

21 hours ago, sixmille said:

How come, long range whips and polearms require aiming now. That's new.

Unlike radial frame or other powers, you have to aim towards the mobs and aim your character to move within range of the mobs. Try standing still, looking at the ground, and swinging your melee... get back to us on how many mobs you kill. But you know this full well already.