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Melee weapons should be melee


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Well, i know, ill get so much hate for saying this, ik, im not the first one to say it either, but its been way too long since this game saw some balance. And by balance, i mean "nerfs". Some things are okay, powerful, yet balanced. The weapons rework redeemed lots of weapons, such as Tiberon, Sicarus, even a Lato (be it vandal or prime). And the game-breaking things such as Blade Storm, World on Fire, Vex Armor. But then again, there still exists "meta" things that are quite gamebreaking from many angles. While id love to mention Mesa, her immortality to ranged projectiles or room-clearing Peacemakers, id like to focus this topic on melee weapons, mainly on Reach and Primed Reach.

Atterax, Scoliac, Lecta, it all has begun when the former Telos Boltace was too much gamebreaking and people started exploiting its overpowered passive, that cleared rooms way too quickly. After the "nerf" has arrived, many of these gamebreaking items were, as others reject to understand...balanced. Tonkor, Simulor, T.Boltace...nobody uses them anymore, and why? Because people are eager to play on the easiest possible difficulty? After these "toys" were broken, ppl wanted some nearly same gamebreaking items, so they started using Atterax with Maiming strike. Then the rivens have arrived, and people found out they could also do the same with Scoliac, which could benefit from maximum riven dispostion, and utilize either the range of slide attacks, or the crit on slide. Or combining these all together. People thought, that the main issue would be the Maiming Strike, or its possible prefix on rivens, which was not exactly the core of the overpowered mechanic. It was Reach and mainly Primed Reach. Easy to access mods, that can make melee weapos kill enemies from across the room.

There is nothing wrong with killing an enemy with a melee weapon across the room...as long its a gunblade or glaive-type weapon.

But killing enemies with either permanently spamming the slide attack, which is completly without limits, using the Reach mods (and/or Riven with Reach) ,on Polearms can perform the same way (Guandao for example) using just quickmelee. This can reach even 13 meters.

In warframe, melee weapons are not melee.

One thing i dont understand: why do people like this? Using the same thing over and over and over, killing the highest enemy levels without any aiming, or requiring any skill. Seeing this in every single sortie, kuva flood, or anything, such as recently added gamemode Sanctuary Onslaught. But it is getting more and more common, any type of mission, any enemy level.

What is the reason this feature was not somehow put to end, or at least get some balance? It has been over a year, and there should be finally some solution.

You call it playing, by indefinitely spamming that slide attack to wipe out entire rooms?

People want to join in and have fun, trust me, you are not making anyone anywhat happy by not letting them get a single kill. Most generic response ever: "go play solo then. dont cry lol". To which i reply: "Warframe is, was, and always will be a co-op game. Let that sink in, let others have fun too."

 

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4 minutes ago, Inquizitor said:

One thing i dont understand: why do people like this? Using

To help you understand (and please, whether I support it or not has been taken off the table here), people like it, and use it, because this is a horde-based looting game, and the quicker, and more efficiently you can kill the hordes of enemies, the quicker and more efficiently you get the rewards.

That's literally all there is to it.

A status-and-crit-scaling slash-based weapon that can exploit Condition Overload is a magnificent source of scaling damage, it's fantastic for killing things all the way through a mission at high level, and will also produce fantastic high numbers in the Simulacrum (which I know is a debatable option...).

But when your objective is to kill 172 enemies in a single mission as fast as you can to get the end-reward (such as a relic, prime part, blueprint or similar) then the efficient route wins out. When your objective is to kill things faster and faster in order to maintain loot drops, such as life support, the efficient route wins out.

The purpose of a looter game is to find the most efficient way to get loot, and people have found it, that's all there is to it.

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someday, DE will address this issue, if they don't, then the reason the nerfed ember was complete bullpoop because this does the same thing but worse 

 

hopefully, after they finish with their 'next big thing', in this case, venus and sacrifice, they'll give time for this.........but oh wait, there's no time for that, the NEXT big thing after that awaits, because who the fick cares about major game issues amirite? >_> 

the new dmg system and khora quest are the newest victims of this blind focus on 'the next big thing', I'm wondering what the next one will kill? 

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8 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

To help you understand (and please, whether I support it or not has been taken off the table here), people like it, and use it, because this is a horde-based looting game, and the quicker, and more efficiently you can kill the hordes of enemies, the quicker and more efficiently you get the rewards.

That's literally all there is to it.

A status-and-crit-scaling slash-based weapon that can exploit Condition Overload is a magnificent source of scaling damage, it's fantastic for killing things all the way through a mission at high level, and will also produce fantastic high numbers in the Simulacrum (which I know is a debatable option...).

But when your objective is to kill 172 enemies in a single mission as fast as you can to get the end-reward (such as a relic, prime part, blueprint or similar) then the efficient route wins out. When your objective is to kill things faster and faster in order to maintain loot drops, such as life support, the efficient route wins out.

The purpose of a looter game is to find the most efficient way to get loot, and people have found it, that's all there is to it.

Tbh you are giving most of the people who use it too much credit. if the most efficient method would require multiple button presses and a level of micromanagement then I'm sure most of them would not use it.

Edited by Airwolfen
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I never melee, so it don't bother me how they perform that much. But i do think the range is pretty crazy with the right mods, melee should imo be last resort in close quarters.

But as long as melee is so powerfull, ranged and less need to forma. Many will use melee as primary weapon for most content. And ofc there is people that prefer to melee and don't care much about shooting weapons.

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2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

To help you understand (and please, whether I support it or not has been taken off the table here), people like it, and use it, because this is a horde-based looting game, and the quicker, and more efficiently you can kill the hordes of enemies, the quicker and more efficiently you get the rewards.

That's literally all there is to it.

A status-and-crit-scaling slash-based weapon that can exploit Condition Overload is a magnificent source of scaling damage, it's fantastic for killing things all the way through a mission at high level, and will also produce fantastic high numbers in the Simulacrum (which I know is a debatable option...).

But when your objective is to kill 172 enemies in a single mission as fast as you can to get the end-reward (such as a relic, prime part, blueprint or similar) then the efficient route wins out. When your objective is to kill things faster and faster in order to maintain loot drops, such as life support, the efficient route wins out.

The purpose of a looter game is to find the most efficient way to get loot, and people have found it, that's all there is to it.

Personally I'd just have done with it and remove Maiming strike from the game entirely, there's literally no reason for it to exist other than encouraging slide attack spam cheese.

It defeats the entire point of all the work put into stances, combos and blocking/parrying, because you don't need any of it, because you can just spam slide with maiming strike and profit.

reimburse people for it, remove it from the game, never revisit something that actively discourages thought.

Edited by MadMaximoff
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just nerf whip range/aoe. Guandao is kind of harder to use despite its great range because the aoe is a flat disc. On the other hand,  atterax is very forgiving since the aoe is not only wide, but pretty tall/thick. Unless they make it such that the physics of the game will only make the head of the whip deal damage reducing the range is the only means to balance this.

If it's "head only" damage, that means you won't hit people inside a certain distance. You can expect an outcry right there though.

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9 hours ago, Gizogin said:

Make it so that Reach adds a flat amount of range, so that it's equally effective on all weapon types. As it is, it barely affects daggers, while whips get massive range.

Probably because it makes literally no sense for my Warframe's fist the stretch 9 meters.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Probably because it makes literally no sense for my Warframe's fist the stretch 9 meters.

We've got Void magic on our side, not needing to physically touch someone to hurt them is day one at Tenno kindergarten.

(Also, punching the air so hard that you hurt someone a good bit away from you is not exactly an unheard-of idea.)

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9 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

We've got Void magic on our side, not needing to physically touch someone to hurt them is day one at Tenno kindergarten.

(Also, punching the air so hard that you hurt someone a good bit away from you is not exactly an unheard-of idea.)

Except for the fact that one, it's a physical weapon, not energy that's hurting them.

And two, adding range does not give you more strength. By your logic, Pressure Point should be the one making air-waves.

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I agree it's completely anti-fun for everyone involved.

One of the main culprits behind this (but not the only one) is that Maiming Strike is just a bug that they've purposely left as is. It's the only +% critical chance mod that adds it an additive way instead of multiplicative. Same description as any other, so why this one works differently? Simple, because it was not supposed to when they've first designed it.

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On 4/22/2018 at 2:28 PM, Inquizitor said:

Well, i know, ill get so much hate for saying this, ik, im not the first one to say it either, but its been way too long since this game saw some balance. And by balance, i mean "nerfs". Some things are okay, powerful, yet balanced. The weapons rework redeemed lots of weapons, such as Tiberon, Sicarus, even a Lato (be it vandal or prime). And the game-breaking things such as Blade Storm, World on Fire, Vex Armor. But then again, there still exists "meta" things that are quite gamebreaking from many angles. While id love to mention Mesa, her immortality to ranged projectiles or room-clearing Peacemakers, id like to focus this topic on melee weapons, mainly on Reach and Primed Reach.

Atterax, Scoliac, Lecta, it all has begun when the former Telos Boltace was too much gamebreaking and people started exploiting its overpowered passive, that cleared rooms way too quickly. After the "nerf" has arrived, many of these gamebreaking items were, as others reject to understand...balanced. Tonkor, Simulor, T.Boltace...nobody uses them anymore, and why? Because people are eager to play on the easiest possible difficulty? After these "toys" were broken, ppl wanted some nearly same gamebreaking items, so they started using Atterax with Maiming strike. Then the rivens have arrived, and people found out they could also do the same with Scoliac, which could benefit from maximum riven dispostion, and utilize either the range of slide attacks, or the crit on slide. Or combining these all together. People thought, that the main issue would be the Maiming Strike, or its possible prefix on rivens, which was not exactly the core of the overpowered mechanic. It was Reach and mainly Primed Reach. Easy to access mods, that can make melee weapos kill enemies from across the room.

There is nothing wrong with killing an enemy with a melee weapon across the room...as long its a gunblade or glaive-type weapon.

But killing enemies with either permanently spamming the slide attack, which is completly without limits, using the Reach mods (and/or Riven with Reach) ,on Polearms can perform the same way (Guandao for example) using just quickmelee. This can reach even 13 meters.

In warframe, melee weapons are not melee.

One thing i dont understand: why do people like this? Using the same thing over and over and over, killing the highest enemy levels without any aiming, or requiring any skill. Seeing this in every single sortie, kuva flood, or anything, such as recently added gamemode Sanctuary Onslaught. But it is getting more and more common, any type of mission, any enemy level.

What is the reason this feature was not somehow put to end, or at least get some balance? It has been over a year, and there should be finally some solution.

You call it playing, by indefinitely spamming that slide attack to wipe out entire rooms?

People want to join in and have fun, trust me, you are not making anyone anywhat happy by not letting them get a single kill. Most generic response ever: "go play solo then. dont cry lol". To which i reply: "Warframe is, was, and always will be a co-op game. Let that sink in, let others have fun too."

 

If u want to kill everything "meta"... Then might as well shut down the server. Every single time the meta is nerfed... The community creates a new meta.

Reach mods should not be nerfed. Many players such as myself use those mods to give incredibly short range weapons a bump up. Dark split dual swords, fragor prime, nami skyla, obex, tekko, venka, machete... Nerfing those mods would kill more non-meta weapons than the meta weapons ur so afraid of.

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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IMO easiest fix to the whole 'killing enemies across the room" is...make melee affected by walls. Currently melee attacks and ect, depending on range, go through walls...It's one thing to go through enemies, that's expected, but to go through a wall? Nah...not unless I got some kinda melee punch through mod(staring at you glaive...)

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On 4/22/2018 at 1:28 PM, Inquizitor said:

One thing i dont understand: why do people like this? Using the same thing over and over and over, killing the highest enemy levels without any aiming, or requiring any skill.

It might not require much skill to use, but to use effectively does require skill. Just like rolling in a straight run or while standing still isn't hard. Rolling effectively to make you faster and dodging in combat and maximizing speed through narrow hallways however does take skill. Same thing applies to spin attacks, slam attacks and aerial attacks. Less so to stances. Slide attacks have been superior mechanically from the beginning and actually having a combo system with the game overall.

I expect Maiming Strike and Bloodrush will get some sort of nerf eventually because players cry for it all of the time. Although in the end it'll be a lot like Ember, with the nerf not accomplishing much other than negatively affecting endgame performance. If Range gets nerfed it'd be meh. I sure hope its not slide attacks that get nerfed, currently the only attack that actually works with Warframes movement structure and combos well with mixed gunplay. That's why people use it. because stances and the average melee attack are really unflexible and ineffective. There's the odd exception here and there for having half decent attacks and movements but overall it's their lack of flexibility that hurts them most. Why are there not combo trees that vary and are flexible?

Our current alternative's can have their skill level summed up in just as false ways. Shooting is just pointing and clicking. Melee "combos" are press one button repetitively (the exact same complaint as macro'd slide attacks, except you don't need a macro (Although you could make one just like you can make a slide attack one, just as easy, and just as effective)). Like I said though these aren't really accurate descriptions of their use. In general Warframe doesn't require complexity, but pushing your techniques you can get a big difference between 2 players with the exact same build.

If our other combos are adjusted to flow as well as slide attacks, I don't care about nerfs much. It'd be annoying and probably pointless but I'd adjust.

Unfortunate unnecessary rant:

Spoiler

What I don't understand is why aren't people asking for stances to flow and have combos that are effective as much as they post about someone else's playstyle being definitely un-fun. That and better lobbies & matchmaking, so we don't have the endless nerf this and that because that lets other players kill better than me and shouldn't exist. Trade chat and recruiting chat are like late 1990's early 2000's tools.

 

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On 4/23/2018 at 6:59 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Except for the fact that one, it's a physical weapon, not energy that's hurting them.

And two, adding range does not give you more strength. By your logic, Pressure Point should be the one making air-waves.

I'm not sure what the problem with air-punches is. My Orthos Prime has been cutting up enemies with the air from its blade for ages now.

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I have a few idea on how they could fix this. First and foremost, range needs to be a visible stat on your melee, meaning the exact range of your melee needs to show up when you view the stats in your arsenal. Secondly, I think range past a certain point should either reduce the number of enemies hit or the amount of damage done. I don't know exact numbers but range definitely needs a nerf and shorter range weapons need something to make them just as viable. And Maiming Strike needs to die. I know it's not the direct source of the problem but it's definitely making it much, much worse.

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On 22/04/2018 at 10:58 PM, MadMaximoff said:

It defeats the entire point of all the work put into stances, combos and blocking/parrying, because you don't need any of it, because you can just spam slide with maiming strike and profit.

Stances, combos and parrying were worthless from the very start because they required you to gimp yourself by putting your gun away, they effectively stunlocked you by forcing you into an animation chain and they required fiddly inputs to work right (see: pause or hold combos, which are a royal pain in the arse in a hectic fight). By comparison, quick melee is always there and has much less animation lock, allowing you to disengage or reposition MUCH faster. Some weapons even allow you to actively run while swinging them (polearms for sure, others might do so as well) which makes them so very nice to use. This is why I like them - the fluidity.

My favourite weapon is the Lesion, because it hits fast, has a good range (the shortest range of any polearm, but it's enough for me), you can move at good speed while swinging and the quick melee animations are fluid, consistent (inconsistent would be staves: they have a 2-hit sequence in quick melee, but the first hit has half the range of the second) and have nice hitboxes. I don't even have maiming strike equipped on it, preferring to swing while running using a viral/electric + shattering impact to stunlock and cripple the enemies.

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