Who *was* Nidus? ( likely spoilers )

[Xyngrr]

*** Final Edit - Theory Debunked! Nidus is infact a purpose built frame of Orikin Origin! Topic left intact otherwise ***

I got to thinking about what frame Nidus was before he was infested while looking at him in the arsenal. I don't have the comics, wasn't here for his unveil ( if there ever was one ) and still don't have all the codex entries. Nor could I find more than perfunctory info on the wiki about it. It still bugged me. After perusing the other frames, the closest match has some very striking similarities to him. I've composed some side-by-side comparison images, but I think I need to make them smaller and figure out how to post them here, but for now...

... I think Nidus *was* a Rhino.

Reasoning?

1. The environment you get the component parts in - it decomposes armor, unlike every other infested environment which attacks health, so it would eat armor but leave the frame intact. Perfect for cracking one of the highest armor frames. Following this, and the fact that Nidus has no visible armor but is still very resilient while health based fits both the hypothesis and the environment.
2. Physical dimensions - Both frames are roughly the same size, taking into account the lack of armor on Nidus. Moreover - the reference points ( joints, limb lengths, limb masses and volumes ) show that Nidus can fit rather snugly inside the volume Rhino is with a few obvious infested extras( his 'umbilical cord' wrap, and right shoulder ribbing ) tacked on. Some specific landmarks - breastbone ridge, thoraxic ridge, infamous package, hipbones, thigh mass and distribution, and feet design unique to Rhino among the normal frames. Nidus' head is surprisingly well matched also - keeping the centre ridge, and the side lobes, right to the pointed bit at the back. This is easily seen in the abilities screen portrait pose.
3. Animations - Rhino Stomps. So does Nidus.  No other frame does. there's other similarities to their animation sets, but there are obvious differences as well - Nidus trying to shake off something like a dazed pugilist being one of them.

So how did it happen?
Total wild guess theory - Corpus capture a Rhino and being interested in armor and armor defeating technology, move him to a research facility which through accident or design has a mutated strain of the infestation that eats armor. 'Testing' goes awry, leaving a trashed facility, a pile infestation, and one very irate newly reborn. Or just the research data garnered from his first really real tantrum. Lotus ferrets this lead out, and we know the rest.

Alternate wild guess theory? Rhino bites off more than he can chew raiding a Corpus Anti-Armor Infestation research facility and in the carnage a new infestation strain is released which erodes his armor, exposing him to the hivemind of the infestation. He listens, and after a few minutes, chooses not to leave. Instead, the hive and he strike a bargain - free it from this prison and become symbiotes. Rhino scans and returns a sample to the orbiter to serve as a lifeboat and new home for his now-partner and regenesis ( leaving Lotus to manage any issues with Ordis ) and remains at the research facility to finish transforming under the watchful eye of automatic data logging devices. Current whereabouts of this Nidus Prime? Unknown, we only have copies synthesized from one stage in the process, and it's not certain it was the last stage.

That's enough for now, probably think of a few other Oh Wow that'd be cool!' theories on it later.

EDIT ** Theory Shift - RHINO did nothing wrong, it was CHROMA! ^{and a few henchframes} **
Post left intact for thread.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Xyngrr
Initial theory fails known data, read on for the story!

[Doomsknightmare]

Nidus was Oberon.

1.Look at their feet. Both high heel.

2.They can both heal over time.

3.Planting ability (Oberon's 2, Nidus' 4)

4.Nidus' "undying" passive is basically Oberon's 3rd augment "Phoenix Renewal".

 

[Midrib]

Nidus is just an infestation frame, he was designed to use the infestation virus not a random frame that got infested.

Orokin designed the infestation virus to directly combat the Sentients, that was a big failure and resulted in the outbreak we have right now. but the Orokin didn't stop working on the Technocyte virus, it was used to manufacture Warframes. Nidus like all warframes is made from the Technocyte virus but unlike other frames he was designed to harness the power of the infestation but he isn't really a part of the hive mind, as far as we know Warframes cannot be infested since they are immune to the infestation.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Midrib

[Crashen]

I like to believe Nidus isnt really a true warframe, and never was. I think he is pure infestation, purpose built to control and direct the infestation as a sort of alpha, via the Helminth strain. 

His unique status is supported by the way the infirmary will only open for him, and Helminth makes a distinction between "Master" (Nidus) and "Void Demon" (operator). 

But because he is so similar to a warframe, and is made of the same stuff, we can control him, and through him, Helminth. 

[BETAOPTICS]

2 hours ago, Crashen said:

I like to believe Nidus isnt really a true warframe, and never was. I think he is pure infestation, purpose built to control and direct the infestation as a sort of alpha, via the Helminth strain. 

His unique status is supported by the way the infirmary will only open for him, and Helminth makes a distinction between "Master" (Nidus) and "Void Demon" (operator). 

But because he is so similar to a warframe, and is made of the same stuff, we can control him, and through him, Helminth. 

Causality is mixed with you there. The Helmith calls Nidus master because they are build from the same strain and it recognizes the Warframe as Infested, whilst Tenno represent Void Demons to the infested due to their uncorruptable nature, beings made of the void. Mind you that the only beings capable of controlling the infested were the Tenno, as not even Orokin were immune from infection (Ancient infested are Orokin of origin), and therefore the Tenno proposed a unique threat to the infested itself.

Speaking on the original topic however, we can't really say a whole lot about the past of Nidus other than what we learn of his relationship to the infestation trough the Mykonia colony and their traditions and oral folklore. I think the author of the original post is seeing things the way they want to see, as again causality is easily mixed and the conclusions are not particularly solid.
the animations in so far as they are similar are due to technical -, time and resource limitations, not because there is some lore tied to it. By that same reasoning 

- For example  in the first hypothesis the lore of the mission explains that it is " The central room of the map where the data consoles are located is filled with a corrosive agent that will corrode both the Warframe's armor and the data consoles' health. For Warframes, corrosion will result in them gradually losing armor until the corrosion removes their ability to resist the poison damage present in the air, making them lose health every second. " - (source: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Infested_Salvage).

From there it becomes clear that it isn't because of some special interaction with the lore but rather a function of a malfunction within the ships central systems which influences Warframes trough its corrosive agent by reducing their armor (which can be replenished from the central medical bay control panel to the Warframe from time to time).

- 2nd hypothesis does not really hold because skeletons may be borrowed or re-used, but it does not say anything about Warframes themselves and DE has even confirmed this on a livestream (long ago) that Warframes are unique in size, shape and other aspects. While there may be some commonalities with the skeletons being used, then by this reasoning Nyx and Excalibur are one and the same because they not only hold the same skeleton but they hold identical models (in early development of Warframe, Nyx was male, then she was supposed to become female Excalibur before they decided to make her - her own Warframe entirely, but the model stuck). And in side by side comparison they aren't even really that similar in mass or proportion either.

- 3rd hypothesis also does not follow because by the same logic Hydroid and Frost are one and the same because they both share some animations, and Loki and Nyx are as well because again they both share some animations in common. But we all know that in Warframe lore all Warframes are unique and actually they are supposed to represent the personality of each individual operator. Due to gameplay mechanics and design philosophy, the suspension of disbelief is broken by allowing the main player pretend as though their operator was that individual operator, the ' Main Hero ' if you will.

Edited April 23, 2018 by BETAOPTICS

[Crashen]

5 hours ago, BETAOPTICS said:

Causality is mixed with you there. The Helmith calls Nidus master because they are build from the same strain and it recognizes the Warframe as Infested, whilst Tenno represent Void Demons to the infested due to their uncorruptable nature, beings made of the void. Mind you that the only beings capable of controlling the infested were the Tenno, as not even Orokin were immune from infection (Ancient infested are Orokin of origin), and therefore the Tenno proposed a unique threat to the infested itself.
 

That makes very little sense. Because they are made of the same material, Helminth calls Nidus Master? That would be like me walking up to a car and calling it Master, because we are both made of carbon. 

The fact that Helminth addresses Nidus at all suggests that there is something to address. The fact that Helminth distinguishes between the Operator and Nidus, suggests that Nidus (and other warframes, perhaps) are not just empty suits of armor or vehicles. The fact that Helminth refers to Nidus as master suggests that Nidus is supposed to rule over at least that strain of infestation, if not all the infested. 

 

Now I start stretching things, so put on your tinfoil hats. Want to know why I think the Operators can not be taken over by the Infestation, and why the Infested hate/desire/envy/feel kinship towards Tenno? 

Because I think they are two parts of one whole. I think the infestation is the 'body' while void-magic is the 'mind', and they aren't meant to be divided. I think at some point early on, during initial experiments with the Void, the Orokin got their hands on technocyte, a... thing... virus, mutagen, whatever, that denied explanation and definition, that could twist, change, corrupt, or reshape most anything. They 'tamed' it, creating Forma (how else could the weird puzzle-piece reshape everything from weapons to warframes to kavats and kubrow?) Uncontrolled technocyte became the Infestation, cells multiplying out of control like a cancer, without any will/mind/D/RNA to guide it. Over time it created it's own rudimentary hive-mind.

Meanwhile, Void-Magic is will made manifest, desire projected outwards into reality. When void-energy-will is channeled through technocyte flesh, you get the perfect synthesis, the complete whole, a warframe. 

The Infestation hate and fear the Tenno because the Tenno can control them, override their hive-mind. They desire and love the Tenno, because the Tenno can give them direction and purpose, that which their very nature yearns for, even as their newfound independence fights against it. 

Nidus is the bridge between the two. If Warframes are Tenno-Tamed, Nidus is infestation tamed. 

[BETAOPTICS]

14 minutes ago, Crashen said:

That makes very little sense. Because they are made of the same material, Helminth calls Nidus Master? That would be like me walking up to a car and calling it Master, because we are both made of carbon. 

The fact that Helminth addresses Nidus at all suggests that there is something to address. The fact that Helminth distinguishes between the Operator and Nidus, suggests that Nidus (and other warframes, perhaps) are not just empty suits of armor or vehicles. The fact that Helminth refers to Nidus as master suggests that Nidus is supposed to rule over at least that strain of infestation, if not all the infested. 

 

Now I start stretching things, so put on your tinfoil hats. Want to know why I think the Operators can not be taken over by the Infestation, and why the Infested hate/desire/envy/feel kinship towards Tenno? 

Because I think they are two parts of one whole. I think the infestation is the 'body' while void-magic is the 'mind', and they aren't meant to be divided. I think at some point early on, during initial experiments with the Void, the Orokin got their hands on technocyte, a... thing... virus, mutagen, whatever, that denied explanation and definition, that could twist, change, corrupt, or reshape most anything. They 'tamed' it, creating Forma (how else could the weird puzzle-piece reshape everything from weapons to warframes to kavats and kubrow?) Uncontrolled technocyte became the Infestation, cells multiplying out of control like a cancer, without any will/mind/D/RNA to guide it. Over time it created it's own rudimentary hive-mind.

Meanwhile, Void-Magic is will made manifest, desire projected outwards into reality. When void-energy-will is channeled through technocyte flesh, you get the perfect synthesis, the complete whole, a warframe. 

The Infestation hate and fear the Tenno because the Tenno can control them, override their hive-mind. They desire and love the Tenno, because the Tenno can give them direction and purpose, that which their very nature yearns for, even as their newfound independence fights against it. 

Nidus is the bridge between the two. If Warframes are Tenno-Tamed, Nidus is infestation tamed. 

Well that is the lore as far as I know. Nidus is essentially Helminth, or carries the strand which Helminth is made out of, hence why it calls Nidus ' Master ' as in master host or akin to that of ' Father '. Mind you Infested are unalike most other beings, they are at the same time different organisms but also they are one super organism with many different organs (individual infested units), they share a link similar to how ants do in real life share a hive-link within their colonies. And the Orokin developed the Technocyte, they did not find it, it is entirely artificial biological weapon that got out of their control (before they perfected it with Orokin's Neural Sentry seen overtaking the minds of enemies in the Orokin Towers).

In one mission the Infestation hive asks why the Warframes are killing them, because they are both Orokin weapons and the Warframes were born from the Technocyte virus strand. They are essentially robot-like made from the Technocyte and operated by the Tenno trough their Void-synthesis link (which the Operators use to come in and out from the Warframe and then materializing back into the safety of the Orbiter.

The reason Tenno can not be infected by the infestation is because while they are physical in material world, their immaterial form is made from that of the Void, and the Void is a form of energy that burns everything, hence why the void itself can not become corrupted by the infestation, only physical beings can. Since Tenno are not entirely tied to the physical world but they exist in multiple dimensions (the Void and the physical), upon infection a leeching organism like the infestation would burn and die off instantly. As to what allowed the Tenno to possess and transform Void energy to bend reality to their will without being destroyed in the contact is still a mystery as far as I know.

[Xyngrr]

Interesting points. It seems there's not as many straight lines in the lore as one would expect, and alot of headcanon english involved in making a workable journey out of it. Kind of nice to have the 'you figure it out, Tenno' aspect. Maybe a bit too much.. .but Warframe is still young.

After reading Doomknights post about abilities, it did spark me to rethink the criteria I was using to determine which frame it was, and take a second look at all the frames again, not just physical but skill wise as well. As a direct result, my theory has evolved ( SCIENCE - It fails until it succeeds! ) 
He seems to be a fusion of 3 frames, as follows -

1. Chroma - The raw frame is an unpelted Chroma. There is no doubt there - there's wear and tear and some meltiness certainly, but the frame itself was once a Chroma. This would have been obvious if I had one before I first posted but I don't, so just didn't look hard enough at him. Once you do look at Chroma wihout his pelt on ( thank you random Chroma user at the end of a survival! ) there is simply no doubt what frame it was. Unlike with Rhino, Oberon, or other frames, not just one or two aspects are very close but almost every aspect bears striking resemblance without the need to remove large volumes of frame to puzzle it out. Lorewise, there's also a precedent for an Infected Chroma, so the argument that warframes cannot be infected while generally true seems not to apply here*¹. The multiple stresses of his 'adaptability' in the easily available lore strongly suggest this, as does his husbandry/domination/symbiosis with the Sentient Dragonpelt. Both indicate he's able to interface with foreign systems and organisms, infestation fills both these checkboxes. Nidus is an extension of the infested Chromas we see elsewhere ingame, and one subject to Tenno transference.
2. Frost - Skills 1 and 2 - his first two skills directly correlate. Both Freeze and Ice Wave are easily recognizable, though slightly changed given the infested nature of the frame. Come to think of it, that means I may have been wrong about that stomp being exclusively Rhino as well.. .does Frost stomp to make the Ice Wave? Have to test that... more question, more potential errors, more SCIENCE!
3. Oberon - infested carpet and Undying are just as Doomknight says - copied and slightly mutated version of Oberons 2 and the augment for it. Good eye there.
4. Lotus' reaction to seeing a Chroma in the new strange takes on a different cast and significance following this revised hypothesis - She's surprised when seeing Chroma because Chroma was lost to the Infestation and she knew it before the player ever encountered him. Much like the loss of Mirage, The Lotus seems to keep the Operator on a 'don't you worry your sleepy head about it, just keep running the mission' basis about many of these things.
5. Animations - This is a bit tricky, as I cannot compare the other ones outside the stomp and Freeze handwave without the frame ( working on it, pub Kela is a pain to find + RNG ). The point was offered above that ' resources are reused in video games, and so no importance should be given them for lore purposes'. I do concede that things are reused in video games, it's a great time saver to iterate and derive instead of incubate and refine. I do not concede DE are that lazy about it - they have custom idle animations per char per wep in many cases - attack animations don't seem like something they'd skimp on for the length of time these have been in use. Also, they do make some artistic choices that fly right by everyone, and without hard data or lore excluding them the animations used here cannot resonably be considered irrelevant.

I've seen the 'Nidus is a Nidus, no precursor' argument before, and while it's convenient to stop conversation about it I find it highly unlikely. Infestation can and does infest anything and damn near everything, but intelligent design and directed growth aren't it's strong suits. It simply doesn't need them, it just steamrolls everything by infesting it.

To Betaoptics points of 'everything is everything else because it's gamedev ' arguments - I disagree. While I again concede game dev stuff and repurposed assets, as I stated earlier DE makes alot of artistic and design choices, and are quite capable of making new stuff if it suits the theme of the subject. Are there under-the-hood dev reasons and limitations for some things which they later justify with lore? Yes. Is Nyx an Excalibur? Maybe in derivative asset creation, maybe in an old plan to have non-genderlocked frames which proved onerously labour-intensive, maybe in some story quests we haven't had yet. Certainly not in one - wait, two, no three - current storyline quests. They're not the same question - 'Was Nidus another warframe?' is not the same question as ' How are all Warframes made originally, and what is their lineage? '. One is a question of specifics, the other is a broad reaching literally game-breaking topic.

Good dialog so far - more thoughts?

^*1 

Spoiler

There is a whole constellation of headcanon to be unraveled involving warframes, infestation, Helminth, and how the fragments of lore I know about fit together. That said, the IS one heavily infested frame i am certain of, and every other frame can support a cyst including Nidus. So given that frames themselves are infection resistant or neutral, the natural question that follows is "What about Chromas' Sentient-based pelt?". Looks like a straight-line thinking infestable interface to me ( for him, or it ), but again that's a whole other topic with little hard lore I know of to fuel it. If it becomes more on point, it probably deserves its' own thread, or a search to find the one burning a hole in a lore forum somewhere.

 

I will update the original post stating a differing theory has stronger sway for me but leave it otherwise intact. Mistakes are SCIENCE too! :)

Edited April 23, 2018 by Xyngrr
Clarification

[Xyngrr]

Despite having wanted to narrow the topic to a specific question, it raised others that were not easily or satisfactorily put down with the initial conclusion, so I've been checking some of the lore discussions. It seems that the community was split between two primary schools of thought on the pelt - one argues it's a Sentient, the other that it's the remains of a creature from a former DE enterprise, with a further host of other somewhat less cohesive theories. I have seen mention that DE has specifically stated the pelt is not a sentient, but the rumour it was was part of my previous ignorance of that tidbit in the above post. This means that it is still possible it's something from another lorebase that's been adopted here and that is a hard thing to proof without direct intervention from meta sources, so lore-wise the differentiation between those two hairs has to stay up in the air for me. That still does leave the reasonable assumption that the pelt ( regardless of its' origin ) was/is infestable - it's not Tenno, it's not Warframe, it's not a Sentient - everything else can be infested as far as we know. That point stuck in my head ...
Assuming Nidus *was* Chroma, why would the infested room in the orbiter only address him in an intelligible way?
Why can the Operator only understand it when transferring from Nidus, not any of the other frames, including those with a mature cyst?
Why does Nidus know the name of the infestation in the room, while again literally everything else in the Warfame universe seems clueless about it including the Cephalon of ship that contains it?
I'm heavily leaning towards the conclusion that the infested room - that Helminth - is the infested pelt of Chroma, just as Nidus is the infested frame of Chroma.
The logic follows - Chromas effigy is his symbiote, Nidus' is Helminth. I see alot of symmetry here, but I have been wrong before. Whether we're talking to the infestation directly, or some synthesis of it and the pelt is difficult to discern, but only 'having its' voice back' and the comments about its' weakness tends to indicate it's the effigy in a more primary role just as a Tenno controlled Nidus has more Warframe than infestation in control.
This still leaves questions about the fate of Chromas Operator, and why Ordis has no knowledge beyond its' existence, and a number of further corollaries which may shed more light on the origin of Nidus.... Which means more looking for breadcrumbs and jumping at conclusions for me. :)

Thoughts?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 4/23/2018 at 2:29 AM, BETAOPTICS said:

Causality is mixed with you there. The Helmith calls Nidus master because they are build from the same strain and it recognizes the Warframe as Infested, whilst Tenno represent Void Demons to the infested due to their uncorruptable nature, beings made of the void. Mind you that the only beings capable of controlling the infested were the Tenno, as not even Orokin were immune from infection (Ancient infested are Orokin of origin), and therefore the Tenno proposed a unique threat to the infested itself.

Speaking on the original topic however, we can't really say a whole lot about the past of Nidus other than what we learn of his relationship to the infestation trough the Mykonia colony and their traditions and oral folklore. I think the author of the original post is seeing things the way they want to see, as again causality is easily mixed and the conclusions are not particularly solid.
the animations in so far as they are similar are due to technical -, time and resource limitations, not because there is some lore tied to it. By that same reasoning 

- For example  in the first hypothesis the lore of the mission explains that it is " The central room of the map where the data consoles are located is filled with a corrosive agent that will corrode both the Warframe's armor and the data consoles' health. For Warframes, corrosion will result in them gradually losing armor until the corrosion removes their ability to resist the poison damage present in the air, making them lose health every second. " - (source: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Infested_Salvage).

From there it becomes clear that it isn't because of some special interaction with the lore but rather a function of a malfunction within the ships central systems which influences Warframes trough its corrosive agent by reducing their armor (which can be replenished from the central medical bay control panel to the Warframe from time to time).

- 2nd hypothesis does not really hold because skeletons may be borrowed or re-used, but it does not say anything about Warframes themselves and DE has even confirmed this on a livestream (long ago) that Warframes are unique in size, shape and other aspects. While there may be some commonalities with the skeletons being used, then by this reasoning Nyx and Excalibur are one and the same because they not only hold the same skeleton but they hold identical models (in early development of Warframe, Nyx was male, then she was supposed to become female Excalibur before they decided to make her - her own Warframe entirely, but the model stuck). And in side by side comparison they aren't even really that similar in mass or proportion either.

- 3rd hypothesis also does not follow because by the same logic Hydroid and Frost are one and the same because they both share some animations, and Loki and Nyx are as well because again they both share some animations in common. But we all know that in Warframe lore all Warframes are unique and actually they are supposed to represent the personality of each individual operator. Due to gameplay mechanics and design philosophy, the suspension of disbelief is broken by allowing the main player pretend as though their operator was that individual operator, the ' Main Hero ' if you will.

You know how a Green Lantern’s ring is about the wielder’s willpower and imagination?

I’m still wondering if each Warframe we use isn’t the culmination of the power, imagination, personality, and creativity of a single Tenno...perhaps even a generic template molded and transformed from a dream state as the greatest expression of mastery and Tenno self.

[NocheLuz]

First, why Helmith calls Nidus 'Master' but not the Tenno. We all know that Warframe have 'something' in that suit that make Tenno can control them and cannot lose them no matter what. But that something has nothing to do with Helmith or Infestation. Possibly, 'Nidus Prime' was an experimental Warframe to control the Infestation and Helmith is the one created to obey him. So, only Helmith listen to Nidus and not other Infestation.

Second, why Nidus part can only be found in 'Infested Salvage'. Possibly, because Cephalon that Corpus use in controlling the ship got corrupted by infestation. And those data on how the Cephalon got corrupted can be use to replicated the 'lose' Nidus Warframe. Looking on how Lotus 'Construct' those data back together. It is very possible Lotus know about Nidus Prime that Orokin use in old time (and possibly the Helmith).

Lastly, why other Warframe cannot be Nidus. We all know from the quest that Neewa is the one who have the Old War Relic aka. 'Nidus Warframe Blueprint'. But it is possibly a very corrupted Nidus Prime Data that gave them knowleage about Infestation (and possibly immunity to infested). So, that is why Nidus cannot be any other Warframe then Orokin made. As 'Old War' is the war between Orokin and Sentients (and possibly Infestation). The Old War ended by the Tenno when Transference Therapy were perfect and useable. Also, follow by the collapse of the Orokin. If 'Nidus Prime' (or possibly, just Nidus) were to be build after the War (by any other Faction including Corpus as they still in control by Orokin). It would not be an Old War Relic.

[Midrib]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:28 PM, Xyngrr said:

there's also a precedent for an Infected Chroma, so the argument that warframes cannot be infected while generally true seems not to apply here*¹. The multiple stresses of his 'adaptability' in the easily available lore strongly suggest this, as does his husbandry/domination/symbiosis with the Sentient Dragonpelt. Both indicate he's able to interface with foreign systems and organisms, infestation fills both these checkboxes. Nidus is an extension of the infested Chromas we see elsewhere ingame, and one subject to Tenno transference.

I've seen the 'Nidus is a Nidus, no precursor' argument before, and while it's convenient to stop conversation about it I find it highly unlikely. Infestation can and does infest anything and damn near everything, but intelligent design and directed growth aren't it's strong suits. It simply doesn't need them, it just steamrolls everything by infesting it.

 

im just going to address these 2 points

1. there is no infested Chroma, the Codex entry is just listed as Chroma, and he was controlled by the Sentient Hunhow, not by the infestation, Lotus was surprised because she had never seen him since the Old war with the sentients, same fate that met Mirage.

and since i'm sure Infested Mesa will be mentioned, she was being controlled by Alad V's collar, she was not like the regular infested units.

2. Nidus is Nidus and there is no precursor, its not to stop the conversation more to set it straight, throughout the lore there has been no cases or hints towards Warframes getting infected by the Infested, nor has there been any cases or hints towards any Frame being manufactured by any faction other than the Orokin, not yet at least.

Out of the Tenno wiki page. again points towards Nidus not being an infected warframe but a warframe that was created to control the infestation.

and the Rhino prime codex entry has nothing to do with the Infestation or the Corpus, the narrator talks about testing on the Rhino and others like him and constantly experimenting on them and rejecting them, its hints more towards how the first Warframes were made/ Tenno learning how to link with them. and the narrator with the other character "Davis" most likely being Orokin scientists or "Archimedians".

Edited April 27, 2018 by Midrib

[Dwolfknight]

On 22/04/2018 at 11:51 PM, Xyngrr said:

1. Physical dimensions - Both frames are roughly the same size, taking into account the lack of armor on Nidus. Moreover - the reference points ( joints, limb lengths, limb masses and volumes ) show that Nidus can fit rather snugly inside the volume Rhino is with a few obvious infested extras( his 'umbilical cord' wrap, and right shoulder ribbing ) tacked on. Some specific landmarks - breastbone ridge, thoraxic ridge, infamous package, hipbones, thigh mass and distribution, and feet design unique to Rhino among the normal frames. Nidus' head is surprisingly well matched also - keeping the centre ridge, and the side lobes, right to the pointed bit at the back. This is easily seen in the abilities screen portrait pose.

3

How can I tell you this, ALL warframes are the same size.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Maybe DE used Rhino as base when they modelled him?

Doesn't really have to be lore reasons you know.

[Serafinia]

Nidus is a standalone frame and almost any model could have been used to build him just like the Gara seems a recylced female rhino in underbody part. Khora is a bit looks like Equinox in arm size but Khora has a nice booty and a nice breast part so she overall look a very appealing frame. 

Nidus beauty is his passion of gardening.

[(PSN)zeratul____12]

I always thought that Nidus was a warframe base who's infested strains were not stable and resulted in the flesh awakening and mutating the form to its own.

Heres a little story to explain what I mean: A Warframe builder uses an infested human as a base for which they then add in the technology, armour and aesthetic details. However one of the strains used in one particular base (the one for Nidus) were not as stable as the rest and "woke" up. Twisting and reshaping the warframe into what we now call Nidus.

He then went on a killing spree because the engineer hadn't put in a somatic link yet so it couldn't be controlled yet, but it was scanned and documented for later use, with the link included.

or 

The warframes mechanical parts and tech are assembled into a skeleton that then has the infested tissue grown around it, but again it just went berserk.

 

[Xyngrr]

@NocheLuz
First - If he was an experimental Warframe designed to control the infestation, why would the results of a failed experiment be left for years/decades/centuries on the orbiter? Saving it in a quarantined combat ship infirmary in hopes of finding the scattered parts of the rest of the experiment seems unlikely. Leaving a biological infestation onboard only to cure a cyst on a warframe that does not impact it in any way other than looks does not seem likely either. ( yes, I know it grew over a short period between a few game versions, but that raises other questions as to how it got there so I'm assuming it was always there in some form or another, and just grew outside the room so we could notice it. )
Second - As far as I have seen, Cephalons are Orokin technology, not Corpus technology. I could be wrong there, but haven't found any indication Corpus make them. They focus on programming, not synthesis of living beings.
Lastly - That's a good point - getting the assembly blueprint from an old war relic is a puzzling question. I'll have to think on that and see how and if it fits. it does mean that in any case Nidus came into existence it was very long ago.
 

@Midrib
1. The codex entry is listed as Chroma in both the Warframe section AND the infested section. He has a traditional warframe description in the former, and the faction attribute of Infested in the latter. I could find no evidence he was controlled by Hunhow anywhere except conjecture in a few forum threads, but there was no form of evidence and questionable rationale to the claim. Please cite your source. As to Lotus - agreed, her statement was ambiguous so we do not know, both are reasonable possibilities until more data is in evidence either way. 
Infested Mesa? That's an apples and oranges comparison from my perspective - She's explicitly stated to be an empty husk, and has mutalisk infested corpus technology bolted on. I interpreted that as a warframe without Tenno operator ( a husk ) having been hotwired by an infection crazed human with 'sort of' working somatic links, so not the same thing. Good thing to note here so it doesn't cloud further discussion though, thanks.
2. Agreed that there is no secondary manufacturer of Warframes known at this point, though I don't recall stating that there was. As to no cases or hints of infestation interacting with a Warframe - Er, Nidus is one proof of it. Also, every other warframe when stripped of armor in Oestrus hears the infested murmuring... except Nidus, he just takes more damage than the other frames. Also Cysts. This is why I stated 'given that frames themselves are infection resistant or neutral', . I do not argue that some form of infested ( I've seen alot of reference to technocyte, none of them ingame so I'm reticent to conflate the two terms ) tissue is integral to the construction of a Warframe, or that by some mechanism the frame itself with or without an operator is resistant to infestation in the wild. If they were immune, they would not form a cyst to contain the infection, but it would instead simply not affect them at all. That is not what the ingame evidence shows, and why I use 'resistant' instead of 'immune'. Resistances can be broken, while immunity cannot.
I'm not sure where you see a reference to the Rhino codex entry, I don't recall making one. I do remember stating that 'How all warframes were originally made' was not the point of the topic, but how a specific one came to be was. Your contention is 'All were made by the Orokin before our time began, just as they are now'. So noted, though that doesn't work for me in this case.

@Dwolfknight
Er... show me how Rhino fits in Octavia? Or Necros? Or even Excalibur? They may share the same bounding box, or even animation skeleton, but the shapes are far from compatible. Some do have visible similar base shapes though! Oh...on later thought, don't show me how Rhino fits in Octavia. :P

@Zeratul
Hm, name wouldn't link right, sorry. Both interesting and compelling ideas. Any leads to supporting them with ingame data/lore/stuff? They both do still leave the question as to why there was a pocket of an unstable experimental strain incubated on the orbiter for an unspecified period with explicit instructions to the Cephalon not to purge it, no viable frame to link it to, or a reasonable expectation one would be rediscovered. Honestly, that point alone stretches suspension of disbelief for most theories, my own included. As much as I'd preferr airtight lore to support things, I might have to chalk it up to a gamedev decision to introduce new content instead of a lore supportable one. That only muddies the waters more. Still cool ideas.

More thoughts, or leads?

Edited April 27, 2018 by Xyngrr
fresh coffee, fresh eyes, removed some unnecessarily argumentative text

[NocheLuz]

4 hours ago, Xyngrr said:

@NocheLuz
 

Spoiler

First - If he was an experimental Warframe designed to control the infestation, why would the results of a failed experiment be left for years/decades/centuries on the orbiter? Saving it in a quarantined combat ship infirmary in hopes of finding the scattered parts of the rest of the experiment seems unlikely. Leaving a biological infestation onboard only to cure a cyst on a warframe that does not impact it in any way other than looks does not seem likely either. ( yes, I know it grew over a short period between a few game versions, but that raises other questions as to how it got there so I'm assuming it was always there in some form or another, and just grew outside the room so we could notice it. )
Second - As far as I have seen, Cephalons are Orokin technology, not Corpus technology. I could be wrong there, but haven't found any indication Corpus make them. They focus on programming, not synthesis of living beings.
Lastly - That's a good point - getting the assembly blueprint from an old war relic is a puzzling question. I'll have to think on that and see how and if it fits. it does mean that in any case Nidus came into existence it was very long ago.

 

Experimental didn't mean it failed. But I think it did failed to control 'Other' infestation. It can only control Helmith. The Orokin may consider this a failure. But Helmith still be kept alive (faraway from Orokin... The Orbiter). As Ordis say that Helmith is respondsible for any biological function of the Orbiter. And he awaiting return of their Master... Or atleast that is what I think...

Also, I didn't say Cephalons are Corpus tech (IDK if it Orokin or not. But since Orokin can made them.... maybe?). But they did use Cephalons to control the ships. Example being 'Cephalons Jordas', they can even be copy/replicate. Thus resulting in identical Cephalons personality (and name).

[Midrib]

6 hours ago, Xyngrr said:

1. The codex entry is listed as Chroma in both the Warframe section AND the infested section. He has a traditional warframe description in the former, and the faction attribute of Infested in the latter. I could find no evidence he was controlled by Hunhow anywhere except conjecture in a few forum threads, but there was no form of evidence and questionable rationale to the claim. Please cite your source. As to Lotus - agreed, her statement was ambiguous so we do not know, both are reasonable possibilities until more data is in evidence either way. 
Infested Mesa? That's an apples and oranges comparison from my perspective - She's explicitly stated to be an empty husk, and has mutalisk infested corpus technology bolted on. I interpreted that as a warframe without Tenno operator ( a husk ) having been hotwired by an infection crazed human with 'sort of' working somatic links, so not the same thing. Good thing to note here so it doesn't cloud further discussion though, thanks.
 

 

The Chroma is listed in the infested section because The quest was essentially a teaser for the sentient faction before they were introduced and putting sentient next to his name would spoil it.

Chroma was controlled by the sentients,

You get this nice creepy transmission from an unknown voice when you do the new strange quest,                                                                                                                                "ALL IS SILENT IN THE CALM. HUSHED AND EMPTY IS THE WOMB OF THE SKY" 

a very ambiguous message when you first receive it, but when the second dream was introduced it revealed what was meant, and revealed the voice.

 you see Hunhow mention it in the second dream intro. You later know that Hunhow was talking about the reservoir on Lua. 

Simply put it would be impossible for the infestation to know about the reservoir on Lua, and as we know its impossible for the infestation to control a frame, You wouldn't have transmissions from Lephantis saying "Join us" if they can just take control of your frame.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Midrib

[WhiteCr0w]

On 4/23/2018 at 8:21 AM, Crashen said:

Now I start stretching things, so put on your tinfoil hats. Want to know why I think the Operators can not be taken over by the Infestation, and why the Infested hate/desire/envy/feel kinship towards Tenno? 

Because I think they are two parts of one whole. I think the infestation is the 'body' while void-magic is the 'mind', and they aren't meant to be divided. I think at some point early on, during initial experiments with the Void, the Orokin got their hands on technocyte, a... thing... virus, mutagen, whatever, that denied explanation and definition, that could twist, change, corrupt, or reshape most anything. They 'tamed' it, creating Forma (how else could the weird puzzle-piece reshape everything from weapons to warframes to kavats and kubrow?) Uncontrolled technocyte became the Infestation, cells multiplying out of control like a cancer, without any will/mind/D/RNA to guide it. Over time it created it's own rudimentary hive-mind.

Meanwhile, Void-Magic is will made manifest, desire projected outwards into reality. When void-energy-will is channeled through technocyte flesh, you get the perfect synthesis, the complete whole, a warframe. 

The Infestation hate and fear the Tenno because the Tenno can control them, override their hive-mind. They desire and love the Tenno, because the Tenno can give them direction and purpose, that which their very nature yearns for, even as their newfound independence fights against it. 

Nidus is the bridge between the two. If Warframes are Tenno-Tamed, Nidus is infestation tamed.

This is fascinating. Great theory crafting, as it seems sensible enough. The notion of the Infestation and the Void being what they are due to their separation is a tantalizing prospect.

Edited April 28, 2018 by WhiteCr0w

[Xyngrr]

@Midrib

I went through alot more of the lore, and you are mostly correct.
It was indeed Sentient control of the frame, though I found no support for the claim the codex mis-classification of the scanned frame was for spoiler reasons. It is possible, but is conjecture. The scan taken is of the frame not the control source, and breaks the link to its' control source after which it flees apparently unaided? That makes less sense than it should, an empty husk should just ragdoll as ours do in the same circumstance. It's ambiguous, but does not affect that while in play as an asset it was being controlled by a sentient.
After a few views of the New Strange dialog youtube video linked from the wiki, it occurred to me that perhaps the video was foreshadowing multiple things - both the sentients, and various links between infestation and frames. In later story quests there is more concrete information in this direction, but it works against the theory that Nidus was a derivative frame modified at any time after the Orokin were manufacturing, or in the wild by circumstance and having been re-yoked by Neewas' data from the Glast Gambit. With both of those possibilities ruled out, there isn't much else to  support this theory except raw physical and skill similarities which don't cohesively indicate any alternative source under current data. Theory fails, SCIENCE continues on!
:)

@Crashen

That's some good theory there. SCIENCE it, see where it goes! :)

 

There's alot questions left over from the responces to this topic, and data from digging to find one point or another and following where that leads. However, as the initial question of this thread has been satisfactorily asnswered, they'll happen elsewhere.
Hm, might be a good idea to edit the initial topic so folks aren't blind-alley'd by it as well.