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Khora's Planned Changes


[DE]Rebecca

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Any chance Venari's damage and heals will come to scale with ability power? (Like for example the Dex Pixia?) I think being able to raise her damage multiple ways would help her shine.

Thanks for the ongoing updates Rebecca, and all the work the DE team is doing. Especially on our new crazy cat lady <3

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Idea: how about her 3 (summoned ckavat) also inheriting all mods from equipped kavat/kubrow except special ones like charm etc?

That way you incentivize douple pets and make the venari really strong which i love fantasy wise for her.

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These seem like good changes, my main concern is venari being able to full die instead of being re-summonable with her 3, but thats something I can live with.

Even with the addition of working with the combo multiplier whipclaw might still fall off hard once you leave starmap level enemies, a bit of a concern since its her main damage, outside of venari doing her (?) ninja dashes.

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Venari need to be able to be summoned again if she dies. It's weird that you would let a Warframe go without an ability for something you can't always control. I appreciate Venari becoming a passive, but Venari is not in the same boat as other companions since she is an extension of Khora, so it goes without saying that Venari needs to be able to be revived with the ability even if at a huge energy cost or cooldown. 

One more thing, if you're going the route I think you guys are going regarding making Venari behave more like a normal kavat, then please, don't overlook this ...

Consider Nullifiers melting Venari's health.

If you're going to make Venari a passive and susceptible to revive and bleedout state, please do not overlook this critical flaw. It's partially excusable if you let us recast Venari like we can now, but if you make her a passive that basically makes her mortal, then make her unaffected by nullifiers. I can imagine that to be a huge Khora killer even more than it is now.

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Just now, AkagamiD said:

Idea: how about her 3 (summoned ckavat) also inheriting all mods from equipped kavat/kubrow except special ones like charm etc?

That way you incentivize douple pets and make the venari really strong which i love fantasy wise for her.

we can already mod venari...so what would the point be?

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17 hours ago, Cray said:

If Venari is passive, highly recommend giving her a bleedout state like normal pets.

 

Edit: Food for thought, while Venari is dead, you go from having four abilities to three. (Under this proposal)

Alternatively, when dead, her 3rd ability could simply be replaced with a very expensive one (like 250 energy or so) that instantly revives her, similar to casting her now.

Because frankly sometimes I'd rather just let the kitty die and recast her than stroll over to the 4 Napalms and 3 Bombards waiting for me around kitty's corpse.  Just sayin'

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Appreciate the shorter casting animations, they were really too slow, even with Natural Talent. I would suggest a different passive too, as the current one is rather underwhelming.

Whipclaw should be slash based IMO, not a 30% 30% 40% IPS spread. Making it propagate Ensnare on hit is a really good addition to their synergy, much appreciated!

The new ensnare sounds much better too, thank you!

Not a fan of the "if Venari dies she's gone until you revive" thing. Seems really dumb to me. Especially with pet AI being... well, not very bright, to say the least. Between pathfinding issues, pets just not moving for several seconds as if they're looking for their brain or simply managing to somehow getting stuck in stairs/crates/other random stuff, and Venari not being very tanky to begin with and not benefiting from some essential mods that would improve that lack of survivability (hopefully they are part of the mods you intent to fix?), her being half of what makes Khora Khora, it seems unwise to refuse us the ability to bring her back at will. I would strongly recommend you abandon this idea, fast. Wouldn't want to end up with yet another frame in the "not viable" pile now, would we? Another thing I really would like to see is expanded stances with more varied and interesting effects shared between Khora and venari, such as shared damage reduction when using defensive stance, damage boost on attack stance, passive healing and/or life steal for the team on heal stance.

As for Strangledome, not going to lie, it doesn't feel like an ultimate. At all. And the changes to Whipclaw and Ensnare, as well as their new synergy, make it seems an even less interesting and useful ability IMO. Now it seems redundant to me. Where's that Exalted Whip we were promised? Just tell us if it's too clunky and unwieldy to implement, I'm sure we would understand. At the very least give Khora an ability deserving of the name "ultimate", because right now, it really isn't.

Overall the changes seem to be headed in the right direction, especially Whipclaw and Ensnare and how they synergize, although a few other changes really need to be scraped entirely, like losing Venari until we are forced to revive, this one I really don't like, and I don't understand the logic and thinking process behind it to be honest.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PC Tenno, what a week it's been!

This post aims to go over 1 main point of Beasts of the Sanctuary: Khora!
At a glance, I think the gap between Gara and Khora's release is one of the longest between releasing new Warframes. That alone doesn't feel too good. There are a lot of reasons for this, and most of them are layered in re-designs of the Warframe (IPS/Quest goals, etc). The way Khora was released was certainly not the most ideal given the wait for a new Warframe, but we are going to make her better thanks to your experiences.

As must be said for all time, everything below is subject to change! This is especially important - while we want to give you a sense of what we're planning, it's equally important that you know we are indeed planning. 

Here's what we're planning on doing with Khora!
 

  • Ability casting times have been shortened across the board - Natural Talent is always great, but the base animations needed shortening.
  • Whipclaw
    • Whipclaw will apply to and benefit from the combo counter.
    • All enemies caught in the Strangledome will take half of Whipclaw’s attack damage when one enemy in the Strangledome is hit with Whipclaw.
    • Hitting an Ensnared enemy with Whipclaw will cause the living metal to propagate.
  • Ensnare
    • Ensnare affects multiple enemies. When an enemy is ensnared, the living metal will propagate and pull in every enemy within range. The living metal ensnaring enemies will then propagate a second time to pull in another wave of enemies within range.
    • Procs no longer wake up ensnared enemies.

 

  • Strangledome
    • Once an enemy dies in the Strangledome, they will drop to the floor, making room for new victims.
    • We have other plans that are too in-progress to share yet - we'll update here with more information as we get it!

I really like these changes for her abilities - Would make her more fun to play.

 

But for Venari I'd like some other changes too!

17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Venari
  • Venari is now a passive ability - Venari is simply there, no casting required. When she dies, she will be revived when you Revive (*it's very likely you'll have the opportunity to revive Venari like other companions, but in the event you miss that window it'll be gone until you revive)
    • Venari fights independently until she receives a command. Khora’s third ability overrides Venari’s target and changes her battle posture at an energy cost.
    • Kavat mods like Animal Instinct have been fixed so they will work properly on Venari.
    • Venari deals slash damage to enemies instead of impact damage.

Being a Passive makes way more sense than having Venari being a 2 minute ability - but her rotational abilities - Attack - Protect - Heal I would suggest a few changes - to make Venari be stronger than a normal kavat. 

  • Attack
    • has an internal combo counter, that works like Melee - but only stacks at 0,25x (or lower?) per stack. meaning in longer running endless missions, Venari gets a bit stronger. Cooldown time would be affected by mods on your melee weapon :)
    • Cooldown is increased(doubled, tripled, quadrupled?) when switching to a different mode.
  • Protect
    • Regularly uses taunt - Targets in area are taunted for a few seconds - this duration is affected by Warframes ability duration
    • Spikes are erected from Venaris skin - increases armor and reflects damage. Increased armor is affected by Ability Strength
    • Regular attack damage is halved - but is prioritized lower as main objective would be taunting enemies that attack Khora and her Warframe allies.
  • Heal
    • Regular attack damage is halved, but a percentage of damage done is stored as a healing buffer
    • Aura works like Oberons - where anyone in range is healed - but only as long as there is something in Venari's healing buffer.

 

If you decide not to keep the rotational abilities - these could be made as precept mods that cannot be equipped together - making you able to specialize your Venari Kavat. In addition I believe Venari could benefit from a higher status chance and a little increase in base damage - but not only that - A symbiosis between Venari and Khora is also certainly needed - just like damage output of Whipclaw benefits from Ensnare and Strangledome, Venari could have an increased damage output to those who are trapped by Ensnare and Strangledome
I really like the idea of a "beastmaster" Warframe, which is why I would like to see these additions to Khora and Venari. :) Just a few ideas I have about Khora.

 

Also a few personal opinions about Khora herself, would be to remove her shields and increase her base health pool a little. She's quite tanky and since she's going to be a warframe that feels like she truly wants to have her abilities used, Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline would suit her well - but the shield makes this setup really awkward. :)

EDIT:
Also - please make Venari's attack damage per hit and not total damage over an attack cycle. 
And have Hunter mods' set bonus work on Venari too!

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I know it's an unpopular opinion but I actually like Strangledome, even if it is similar to other frames' abilities; not every new skill can be unique. What I think it does need is a bit more synergy with Khora's other abilities, but I hope whatever reworks are in the works that the spiderweb of area CC stays in some form. :smile:

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I admittedly don't have Khora yet, so I can't give too much feedback, though these all sound like good improvements. 

That said, the Venari ability doesn't sound quite like a good idea.  The idea of having a cast to override Venari's behavior and get her to attack a selected target sounds great, don't get me wrong.  But the idea that her stance will change upon cast doesn't sound as good.  For one thing, this means that you'll need to cast twice to switch Venari's stance twice (say, you want to switch from offense to healing), which would be an annoyance and rather unnecessary energy drain.  It also means that, if you like Venari's current stance, but you want to override her behavior because, for example, she's 40m away playing with a Latcher, you have to choose between getting Venari back in the action or keeping the desired stance.

Also, it would be nice if casting the Venari ability when Venari is dead would instantly revive her, but at an increased energy cost.  So that Venari dying wouldn't remove one of Khora's abilities entirely.

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There are lots of better usage with Khora 3 and not just a command button for Venari.

The pet should be able to cast heal or attack on its own

Change 3 to resummon the pet if it die, or buff the cat to becomes Super Saiyan Cat or someing , anything, is better than current concept.

 

And as long as Whip keeping as a 1 ability and not exalted weapon I don't put much hope for it.

Other ability I am fine with the idea, let's just see what it actual use like when update arrives.

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Venari: just make the cat have infinite bleed-out time. So the player can go there whenever s/he feels like it to revive the cat.

The bleeding out cat must follow through portals (sabotage, corpus invasion, onslaught, etc.)

Or:

ON VenariCast :: IF cat.alive == false THEN VenariCast.EnergyCost = 4x AND cat.alive = true

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I would love to see an addition to whipclaw:

-press ability button: just as it is.
-longpress ability button: khora draws out her whip in one hand and her sidearm in the other (like thrown melee weapons), the whip works like any other exalted weapon. The whip's charge attack would be like a single press of the button, stunning enemies. Pressing 1 again ends the ability. 

 

 

Also please increase strangledome instances limit to 4.

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

When she dies, she will be revived when you Revive (*it's very likely you'll have the opportunity to revive Venari like other companions, but in the event you miss that window it'll be gone until you revive)

Please make it as recast instead, cats die all the time. 

17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Strangledome

It still looks like it should moe fit to Harrow.

How about whip tornado moving at 4x speed instead? 

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It's good to see she is getting fixes / tweaks / changes.

My opinions rom another thread ;

On 22.04.2018 at 8:00 PM, Aeon94 said:

My thoughts after playing with her ( got 3 forma on her , might put 4th )  ;  (+) 4 forma on her

  • Passive : Could be better if it was affected by ally pets aswell , that'd help her survivability more.

     (+) I like passive Venari idea but we need a revive method outside of burning a frame revive for her. A stasis period ( 15-20 sec ) with self-revive or a hold 3 to re-summon could work.

  • Whiplash : So unreliable , doesn't hit enemies most of the time even tho enemies are in impact radius ( 5 meters and not affected by range ) and damage isn't good. It is copy of Gara's first minus sweep charge attack. It should at least do something other than typical stagger / knockdown. Maybe prioritize targets for Venari ?
  • Ensnare : Like Whiplash , so unreliable. Whole ability and spent energy go down in drain if first snared target dies also whiplash disables snare.
  • Venari :
  1. Some mods don't work on Venari ( Animal Instinct etc. ). (+) Fixes are coming.
  2.  Stances are so bad ( abysmal heal and one disarmed / knocked enemy at a time ) except Attack one.
  3. Venari's AI is so bad but its a problem for all pets in general , waiting for Pets 2.0.
  4. Why on the earth a kavat with sharp claws deal impact damage ? Venari even looks like its gonna shred someone by just looking at it. Should be Slash + Puncture damage. (+) Glad Venari will deal slash damage.
  • Strangledome : This ability has to go. It's CC contradicts with Ensnare's. Making enemies ragdoll around and seperating them from each other don't help her Whiplash / Ensnare and hurts her kit. Venari can't attack strangled enemies too. It doesn't even fit her theme , she is a whip-wielding beastmaster but Strangledome reminds me of slaughterhouse with all chained and hanged enemies which has nothing to do with beast-taming / summoning / whip-mastery -.-

Please replace Strangledome with Exalted Whip. I know you seperated IPS change from her kit and reworked her but Exalted Whip ( and IPS change ) was one of her selling points and people were hyped for it. 

*Spin-2-Win meta is not a good excuse when Meme-ing Strike and other Acolytes don't work on Exalted weapons. Also Exalted Whip can be made combo heavy with low slide attack range to prevent slide macros.

A nice idea ;

15 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

This is good, I just don't think it's enough to give Khora a real place. My main feeling is the all the abilities are one slot too high for what they give. Imagine for a moment:

  1. Ensnare (Fells a lot like Inaros's #1 Desiccation, hence feels like a #1 ability)
  2. Venari (with a 50 energy re-summon on long press? Pet control doesn't justify #3)
  3. Strangledome (Like Frost's #3 snowball or Vauban's #3 Bastille, with more damage but less utility)
  4. Whipclaw ("Exalted Whip", With all the extra effects and synergy you gave to the old #1 whipclaw) complete with the IPS switches on longpress for when that means something)

You already have the assets and really we wouldn't mid it you just picked and chose animations from the existing whip stances.

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Passive should increase BASE armour and based on distance. Damage taken is distributed across you and your pets shield and health pools. If anyone one is revived, you all rise.
Reliance on pets should also mean convenience in dealing with them. A lot of double-dipping here, but still, you can tweak numbers for that.

3 causes you and your pets to dash to the first target in front of your reticule or to a maximum distance, and then spreading out to be more aggressive. damage scales with combo multiplier.
Holding it causes pets to regroup - assisting with the passive - and triggering the heal, meaning trying to go on the defensive actually works instead of having a "defensive mode" which ends being redundant with "healing mode" in terms of purpose.

Ok, bye.

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If Venari is going to be passive I think then the first ability (Whipclaw) should be swapped with her third (Venari) and both should get a little boost or change (examples ideas below)

Whipclaw: becomes the exalted whip and retains all other planned changes (Listed below) (Possibly being promoted to ultimate ability with Strangledome being new three)

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Whipclaw will apply to and benefit from the combo counter.

  • All enemies caught in the Strangledome will take half of Whipclaw’s attack damage when one enemy in the Strangledome is hit with Whipclaw.

  • Hitting an Ensnared enemy with Whipclaw will cause the living metal to propagate.

Venrai: gains ability to resurrect Venari if dead as well as each posture gaining a Passive buff (New First ability) 

 -Attack: Venari benefits from and contributes to melee combo counter

-Protect: Venari gains a life-link with Khora and gains additional armor

-Heal: Gives Khora and allies a small life steal buff or small passive regen

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Been thinking more...

Passive: Venari. Venari is always there, and cannot be killed. Will only disappear after taking too much damage, then reappear a few seconds (increasing the more times Venari dies) later somewhere away from what killed her. Venari will revive you or another ally once every (90? 120? something) seconds, but has no general "heal." 

1. Whipclaw -- press for basic attack, hold to designate a target for Venari to kill. It's the "f*ck this guy in particular" power. Whipclaw an ally/object for Venari to defend it. 

2. Ensnare -- sounding better than it is currently; go with it.

3. Cat o' Nine Tails -- press to whip out in an AOE cone in front of you, hitting multiple targets for slash / slow procs. Hold to grab one guy and whirl him in a circle, causing impact and/or knockdown.

4. Feral Stalkers -- Venari calls forth feral void kavats from...wherever Venari is from, who swarm all over a group of enemies and just bite the sh*t out of them. Yes, it's a lot like Bladestorm. Sue me.  

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I'd rather have activating ability 3 resummon Venari than have to revive.  Reviving pets that run around and get themselves in trouble is already a pain and adding another pet to do that for doesn't sound appealing.  When Venari dies just turn the number 3 ability into resummon Venari at a higher energy cost.

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