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Khora's Planned Changes


[DE]Rebecca

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After fiddling with her a bit - Venari needs some SERIOUS changes. Like, scaling damage based off of melee mods serious. Her attack stance does almost no damage and while in that stance provides no benefit to khora or the team. Meaning she'll never be used for anything besides healing (because let's be real, Venari's tendancy to attempt to steal weapons from the same enemy multiple times and the sheer infrequency with which she does it means that will never be used either.) And even then, EVEN then, her heal is not.. very.. good. It relies entirely on Venari being next to you, and I have found Venari likes to stay very, VERY far from you. Multiple tiles away in some cases, refusing to move. The rest of Khora's kit is fairly solid, or at least it will be with the proposed changes. It just strikes me as a bit odd that her main gimmick is her weakest point.

 

EDIT: It also doesn't help that Venari has little to no synergy with the rest of Khora's kit. While I understand it would be difficult to implement changes like that so suddenly after her release, Venari could perhaps be able to bounce between the vertex points of Strangledome to deal damage to everything inside while in attack mode, steal multiple weapons at once from enemies in Ensnare while in Protect mode.. perhaps teleport to those she wants to heal in heal mode.. ect.

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I love that you are making venari a passive now and i love what you are doing with the rest of the abilities. the only thing I see if if you make venari a passive as a whole (get rid of her current 3) Please do NOT give us exhaulted whip... we already have too many exhaulted weapons. I enjoy the fact that she is more tactical like Vauban and few others are. Its beautiful!

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This all sound great, DE.
BUT. If you're gonna make changing Venari's stance cost energy, it'd be nice to have the option to swap directly to our stance of choice. I run a low efficiency build and having to blow, say, 50 energy per tap of my 3 button just to go from attack to heal is gonna get old very quickly.

A suggestion would be to have the option to hold 3 down to go back to the previous stance in the cycle while  tapping it advances to the next one.

 

Edit: Upon further consideration. Don't make Venari part of Khora's passive. Leave Venari on her three, just remove the duration. While I strongly disagree with the clamoring that state that she's useless, Brozime and others have made a strong point regarding Venari. As it stands, and unless you intend on beefing Venari up, the only thing that seperates Venari from being every other Kavat in the game is the option to resummon her. This means that above the level ~120 mark they drop like butterflies in a rainstorm and have to be revived constantly. Making Venari function like this is a major mistake when you take in to account that Venari is what seperates Khora from just being another exalted weapon frame. The reason Venari works at all is that there's no penalty for her dying.  You just resummon. This is important especially when considering the flow of warframe. You're asking everyone who plays with a Khora to be consious of Venari as part of her kit, and that letting Venari outright die means that you're taking /that/ much more of Khora's kit away from her. You're asking people to stop the helter-skelter speedrunning to turn around for a Kavat, potentially in the middle of a sortie mission, just to pick her up because without it you're cutting Khora's survivability in half. 

My final suggestions would be to:
1: Make Khora's 3 intially act as a summon just as it does currently, cut the duration part out and then if you feel the need to add a cost to cycling the stance make it function like Vauban's traps or Ivara's arrows. Should Venari die, have it reset to the initial function of 'summoning'.

2: I like the Idea with her 1 and 2 interacting like you suggest, it give purpose to her 1 beyond "Hit 1 instead of 'E' just to spice things up." But if you're looking to make Strangledome split the whip's damage like Zephyr's Tornados or Hydriod's puddles I have to suggest either increasing the whips Strength Scaling or possibly making it crack each enemy for 60-75% of the initial hit instead of just 50%.

3: Exalted whip is no bueno. I mean, lets look at our category of Exalted Weapon frames.
Excalibur sees exception amounts of play do to versatility and the sheer damage output he can dump out, but he's often build around his blind and his 4, where his blind is also built in. Valkyr seems common mid-tier but is as far as I can tell, seems to be often overlooked further in to the end-game for reasons I don't quite get, but...
Ivara is built almost solely around Prowl for Spy missions.
Wukong is kinda like a meme at this point.
Titania /is/ a meme. We don't need Exalted Whip Khora. She won't replace Excal in terms of play power or versatility and she doesn't have the sheer bulk of Valkyr which is part of what makes her so common in mid-level play.

4: This one comes up a lot, I feel like her passive is on the weaker side of things. That having been said, 15% armor per each pet of the party within 50m seems more appropriate. a potental All Khora party would mean getting 120% armor and would make for some interesting tank considering how good Khora's survivability is with a Crit/Lifesteal link build Venari is already. Addtionally here, I'd to make a mention of allowing Venari to possibly use Smeeta/Ardaza Kavat mods seeing as how it's pretty clear that the intention for Khora players is to bring a sentinel anyway.

5: Most importantly I want to talk about the decision to make Venari's damage slash-based. Mainly because Venari's Status chance is a mere 7-ish%. Combining this with the... slow nature of the Kavat AI in combat, Slash procs are... not really going to be all that regular and that's something to be considered in the Damage 2.0 landscape. I'd like to see the Kavat AI upgraded, but barring that as an option, a higher status chance, say 15-18% would likely dampen the delay with the availiability of the procs.

If you made it this far, do correct me where I'm wrong. I don't doubt that I'm making a few solid mistakes in my assumptions and I just want to see the Crazy Cat lady do the things real good.

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Whipclaw is an ability that is akin to a lot of other abilities in warframe, but at the moment, it's clunky and not very powerful, so it needs to either some kind of buff or a faster casting. What is planned to be done is a good idea (at least to me).

Ensnare needs tweaking indeed.

Venari shouldn't be like a normal Kavat ! I believe that Venari should be summoned with an energy cost, then like Equinox first ability, re-casting will cost energy, gives Venari a buff that matches her new battle posture. And if Venari runs out of health, instead of dying like a normal Kavat, she immediately disappear, and you have to re-cast the ability to summon her again. Switching battle posture and stuff can be done like Vaubans's second ability or Ivara's first : quick tapping to roll and select the posture, longer press to use the ability.

Citation

BUT. If you're gonna make changing Venari's stance cost energy, it'd be nice to have the option to swap directly to our stance of choice. I run a low efficiency build and having to blow, say, 50 energy per tap of my 3 button just to go from attack to heal is gonna get old very quickly.

Exaxtly the issue I was thinking about when typing about making it similar to the abilities mentionned

Strangledome is interesting but its CC and damage capicity isn't enough. Maybe some tweaking needs to be done as well.

Lastly her passiv should include other player's pets

This is what I think for Khora. Anticipating her updates !

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57 minutes ago, CatOfTechnology said:

This all sound great, DE.
BUT. If you're gonna make changing Venari's stance cost energy, it'd be nice to have the option to swap directly to our stance of choice. I run a low efficiency build and having to blow, say, 50 energy per tap of my 3 button just to go from attack to heal is gonna get old very quickly.

A suggestion would be to have the option to hold 3 down to go back to the previous stance in the cycle while  tapping it advances to the next one.

I have to agree with this. hit 3 to cycle through your choices, this option would cost on energy. Hold to confirm and direct the pet to use said action at the target.

If the pet is a certain distance away or unable to path to that location, it should teleport there using it's previously used summoning animation. This would deal with your kavat getting stuck in the level like it can from time to time.

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can we pls just get a new abilty instead of strangledome? 

its honestly just a massively nerfed Vauban 3/4 pls cna we either have the whip or something else i mean we have so many abilltys that do something simliar its annoying lets list them 

1 frost globe 

2 garas wall

3 limbos ult

4 vuabans vasteal

pls no more 

 

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My suggestions to khora are this...

1 Whipclaw should be able to hit any enemy regardless of range. adding in the combo counter is a great idea but, I see some problems arising from this as its still unreliable to hit enemies even currently.

2 ensnare shouldnt have a timer or delay. its an enchanted whip. it should affect 1 enemy then branch off holding them in place where they get "ensnared" not pulling them in. if anything gets close then they get "ensnared" for the remainder of the duration. there is no singular target that isn't an originating source for the ability. unlike the current setup for the ability.

3. Venari should cost no energy to cycle, however it should be similar to ivaras' 1.

4 strangledome needs to be gone. completely. toss the idea in the trash. unless.... you rework the damage to equal that of other AoE dps abilities in the game like ember, equinox, or banshee. They can do out of the gate around 2-3k with a pure power strength build. Match her numbers up with theirs or just increase its base damage more than it currently is. Also, the bodies ragdoll affect makes them hard to shoot/hit if you do keep this ability turn the knob down on the swinging of the ragdoll later into an enemy being captured by it as they sway indefinately. If you do decide to scrap it, the whip has already been implemented on her first ability so no point to scrap the whole build concept. However, if you do decide to go with an alternative 4th ability, I propose that she could have a new ability named Call of the Wild. Its ability calls beasts to her similar to mirages hall of mirrors, but more akin to nekros shadows of the dead specifically making use of venari and her mods. This is not to say you give her 7 cats, rather you give her 3-5 random pets so that you cant just take advantage of having a full squad of khoras  all running 1 build of venari thereby breaking the game. This thereby makes use of her passive, and gives her increased armor, making her tanky at later gameplay.

5 and finally her passive. right now she can only take advantage of her pets. if others are playing with lets just say 3 other khoras, then she should get 15% per pet/sentinel. not just taking into account her own, she should take advantage of others pets/sentinels as well. giving her a total of 120% armor bonus. which right now isnt calculating into her passive.

This is just a preliminary thought, and some personal Ideas of mine. They may sound unoriginal for whats already in the game but they can be expounded upon and made differently. However, as she is a beastmaster having more "tames" would make her more a true beastmaster. So why a BDSM frame when we already have harrow? :P

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Please let Venari use warframe color palletes. Not being able to match their colors to Khora's doesn't feel right. Venari isn't like a normal pet, they're an extension of Khora and should be able to share the same colors as Khora.

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On 4/23/2018 at 7:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

PC Tenno, what a week it's been!

This post aims to go over 1 main point of Beasts of the Sanctuary: Khora!
At a glance, I think the gap between Gara and Khora's release is one of the longest between releasing new Warframes. That alone doesn't feel too good. There are a lot of reasons for this, and most of them are layered in re-designs of the Warframe (IPS/Quest goals, etc). The way Khora was released was certainly not the most ideal given the wait for a new Warframe, but we are going to make her better thanks to your experiences.

As must be said for all time, everything below is subject to change! This is especially important - while we want to give you a sense of what we're planning, it's equally important that you know we are indeed planning. 

Here's what we're planning on doing with Khora!
 

  • Ability casting times have been shortened across the board - Natural Talent is always great, but the base animations needed shortening.
  • Whipclaw
    • Whipclaw will apply to and benefit from the combo counter.
    • All enemies caught in the Strangledome will take half of Whipclaw’s attack damage when one enemy in the Strangledome is hit with Whipclaw.
    • Hitting an Ensnared enemy with Whipclaw will cause the living metal to propagate.
  • Ensnare
    • Ensnare affects multiple enemies. When an enemy is ensnared, the living metal will propagate and pull in every enemy within range. The living metal ensnaring enemies will then propagate a second time to pull in another wave of enemies within range.
    • Procs no longer wake up ensnared enemies.
  • Venari
  • Venari is now a passive ability - Venari is simply there, no casting required. When she dies, she will be revived when you Revive (*it's very likely you'll have the opportunity to revive Venari like other companions, but in the event you miss that window it'll be gone until you revive)
    • Venari fights independently until she receives a command. Khora’s third ability overrides Venari’s target and changes her battle posture at an energy cost.
    • Kavat mods like Animal Instinct have been fixed so they will work properly on Venari.
    • Venari deals slash damage to enemies instead of impact damage.
  • Strangledome
    • Once an enemy dies in the Strangledome, they will drop to the floor, making room for new victims.
    • We have other plans that are too in-progress to share yet - we'll update here with more information as we get it!

We expect to release this to PC this week for the most part - so stay tuned to notes as each hotfix rolls out. We think Wednesday at the earliest pending testing and implementation!

P.S We are also making some FX changes to simply have more oomph and visceral feels! 

Quick question space mom, does this mean blood rush will also carry over? I know it sounds horrible to even think for a second that it would be a good idea but I would be very interested in the possibility of this being viable to make Khora effective against higher level enemies and of course used more often or even "stand out" like Chroma, Banshee, etc...

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On 4/23/2018 at 7:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:
  • Venari
  • Venari is now a passive ability - Venari is simply there, no casting required. When she dies, she will be revived when you Revive (*it's very likely you'll have the opportunity to revive Venari like other companions, but in the event you miss that window it'll be gone until you revive)
    • Venari fights independently until she receives a command. Khora’s third ability overrides Venari’s target and changes her battle posture at an energy cost.
    • Kavat mods like Animal Instinct have been fixed so they will work properly on Venari.
    • Venari deals slash damage to enemies instead of impact damage.

Hey! I have an idea. To me it feels like this change to Khora's 3 would make it slightly boring, she needs some synergy! so I propose this; Venari stays as her passive, and buffs depending on the Mode out of the 3, Attack, Protect, Heal. 

Attack: Adds a 5%-50% damage buff to you and allies in range depending on the amount of "stacks" built up before switching to Attack. (wold work as if a Rhino Roared and gave you a 50% dmg buff) 
 

Protect: Creates a visual around team mates in range of the cast that looks similar to Ensnare, but will deflect 5%-50% of incoming damage. (Looks at acts like Mesa's Shatter shield but instead of 95% dmg reflection, it's only 50%)
 

Heal: Will emit a singular burst that heals teammates in range for 5%-50% of their health and shields. (this I feel would synchronize well with Venari's healing, if they're still too low on health or shields after the burst, Venari can top them off with 25 health per second instead of her initial 50 as it is right now)

 

  • It requires to be charged (Like Nidus' stacks!) for the BUFFS to take affect. Each enemy hit with Whipclaw adds 5% to the next cast to a max of 50% (No higher, powercreep anyone?) The 50% is a percentage saved up for your next mode switch.
     
  • You can still switch Venari's modes freely, but it will cost extra energy if you switch with stacks up depending on the percentage, i.e, if you have 50% built up, it will take 50 energy to switch, could be affected by efficiency mods
     
  • All of these will be based on Khora's duration. Having negative strength will decrease the percentage max, positive strength will not affect THE BUFFS, though it should still affect Venari's output. Each cast WILL consume the 50% therefor requiring you to build up more again
     
  • A cooldown of sorts should be there too. Maybe can't have all 3 buffs at the same time? 

Khora needs some more complexity and usefulness added to her kit while also still having an original concept and synergy. This could be the way to go, or it could be too powerful, I don't know I'm not a content creator or game designer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Venari should have some clear differences with other pets, make it a passive will make it. K different from a regular pet, also makes no sense to a passive ability to stop working since that's what it is a passive, also I think this should be recastable instead of duration as soon as venari is killed, that would make sense

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On 4/24/2018 at 7:56 AM, Cray said:

Edit: Food for thought, while Venari is dead, you go from having four abilities to three. (Under this proposal)

Unless Khora dies and uses a revive.

I saw this downside as well. Can't Venari be just a passive ability (in full?), and with regards to her battle postures, can't Venari use all three battle postures? (or maybe reduce the battle postures into one?).

But that would make her third ability free!

I'm still wondering about exhalted whip. Is there any chance that we will be getting that? At all? Perhaps put strangle dome on the third slot and exhalted whip on the fourth? Maybe? Please?

:shocked:

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Hopefully the delay Whipclaw has is being removed/shortened or just make the ability hit the area you are currently looking at.

 

In an scenario where the enemy and Khora are moving, it's really hard to not miss the enemy.

Because the ability hits the area you were aiming for at first. Adding to this the delay it has to actually hit the target area makes it kinda hard and awkward to use.

 

It's just like reworked Atlas' Petrify. Enemies can move to Atlas' sides in that short amount of time and not get hit by the ability at all. 

So you try moving your aim instinctively but sadly it just doesn't work like that xD

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Probably a bit of an extreme idea, but have you thought about making her 1st into an exalted whip ability? It would have all the mechanic changes you intend to implement, but would be a twist on the generic 1st concept, and could be a good way to include that original idea. Hell, you could even work it in as a choice; pressing 1st deal a single whip attack, while holding it summons the exalted whip.

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I like that you adding synergies with whip, but I think that giving Venari ability to die permanently is really bad (if not to say stupid). And there are 2 big reasons for it:

1) TBH, companions AI is very very stupid. Charger, Kavats and Kubrows really like to stay on dangerous areas, which deal damage to them, and they all not even care to moving from it, so, they just stay there, die, and you your Venati are gone. I never take pet companions to high lvl missions just because of that - 100 lvl enemies killing them within 3 seconds, and they do nothing to prevent it. So if you joing high lvl mission with Khora, you either lose your Venari instantly, cause you have to care about your life more, then her, or keep reviving it over and over again and be frustrated in any of that situations. So this is the reason to make it reviveable at some other, less painful way. And it leads us to second point

2) I remember bad old times, when warframe abilities was mods aswell, and you was able to choose either pick all four abilites, or pick less abilities but make others stronger. Some time later you realised that this was wrong way, and made all abilities avaible by leveling up your frame. And now you stepping on the same rakes again - making ability that player can accidently loose for whole run. So, you have to make smth to compensate it, right? So player can feel satisfied even if he lost his Venari. But all others Khoras abilities not look like smth really powerful, that can be good without Venari. Maybe, add her a passive, that if she loses Venari, she becomes enraged, and gains x2 ability power? So, you losing you healing and disarmig power, but you starting to hit twice as hard as before? But it leads to other problem, where players will be exploiting it, just killing their Venari somehow, to gain more attack power etc. etc.

So, the whole point - dont make Venari able to die permanently, or make some easier way to revive her (why not 10-20 secs cooldown?), or make players to somehow benefit from her death

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Il y a 8 heures, 01thanatos10 a dit :

can we pls just get a new abilty instead of strangledome? 

its honestly just a massively nerfed Vauban 3/4 pls cna we either have the whip or something else i mean we have so many abilltys that do something simliar its annoying lets list them 

1 frost globe 

2 garas wall

3 limbos ult

4 vuabans vasteal

pls no more 

 

DE already stated that whip was a no go. Whip would be similar to Exalted Blade (Excalibur), Exalted Claws (Valkyr's Hysteria), Exalted Staff (Wukong), Exalted Pistols (Mesa), Exalted Bow (Ivara), Exalted Archwing (Titania). "PLS NO MORE" as you say.

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Still not a fan of her dome, the changes will make it better but I still think it should be removed or completely redesigned. The synergy does help though, just wish it also shared status effects etc. 

 

Overall though, happy with the changes so far! Keep up the good work.

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