[DE]Rebecca

Sanctuary Onslaught: Difficulty Changes!

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On April 25, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Cradicias said:

Yeah, this gameplay mode feels like a waste of time... Focus is nice and all, but once you hit the cap, what's the point of doing this? It's mindless and not very engaging. It's not entertaining, there needs to be special mechanics and enemies we haven't seen before that require more thought than just SMASH CLICK. Thought this was gonna be more strategic =(

Once again, that previously all-important critical developer self-question I remember having read in the notes about a 'latest update' not so long ago, recalls itself to mind, the memory of that  critical question which arose to decide the fate, to keep or cut a long-standing game mode, resurfaces again, like a lingering reverberation of a decaying echo of a dying old developer's chorus refrain, "IS THIS FUN?"

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On 4/27/2018 at 1:48 AM, m0b1us1 said:

Really? Do you honestly think it is impossible to make a challenging game mode? Really? It's not impossible in the slightest stretch of the imagination if you put a bit more thought into it. I have had PLENTY of actual challenges in this game, this is just not one of them.

Not sure if intended, but this seems to be a rather aggressive start....

The closest thing to a "challenge" I've ever had in this game is deciding which warframe and weapon combination trivializes the artificial challenges they try to put in. This is something that can be done for each of your suggestions as well. In order off the top of my head: point capture -> Loki -> utility and mobility, changing tileset -> Titania -> razorwing, enemy phases -> Ivara -> wide range of ability effects, ordered kills -> Loki again -> same reason as before.....obviously other frames could do good, but these frames trivialize those gamemode ideas; not that any of them are bad however, I'd like to see one or more of them fleshed out.

That, the ability to trivialize, is why I say they would need to rework things from the ground up. I say that it is effectively impossible because I am looking at everything this game has to offer, and what I see is a plethora of mechanics that make creating an effective challenge for everyone virtually impossible without nerfing these mechanics. We have a perfect example with this update where the elite version penalizes over usage of some of them (btw I'm not just talking about power based mechanics here; those are just the most obvious and plentiful).

Could a truly challenging gamemode exist taking the entire game into account? It's possible, but that would take a rather arduous amount of work and would likely end up similar to conclave, archwing, and to a lesser extent the plains of eidolon where it is essentially a completely separate game inside of the primary game that is Warframe rather than a piece of the primary game like the "standard" gamemodes.

 

Besides all that, my primiary issue isn't that people can't find challenge in this game; that's doable if you want it enough, though it usually includes personal nerfs such as no power usage. The issue I have is the "hardcore" players that are desperately looking for challenge in a game that trivializes its own challenges and keep complaining when something inevitably ends up not being challenging enough because of that. I'd much rather the development team work on actually fixing (not making band-aids for) what they already have out rather than try to create a gamemode that would be entirely counter to the rest of the game.

P.S. Seriously though, flesh out some of those idea and create a thread (or more); maybe one will get enough traction that DE will take notice.

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Posted (edited)

The only thing.. The only thing! Good that came out from the Beasts of the Sanctuary update! The once glorious sanctuary onslaught! Is now complete garbage thanks to you DE! You brought my hopes up for nothing!

 

 

Edited by renogaza
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At this point, I've played regular onslaught more than I'd care to admit.  The reasons were focus and levelling weapons. 

My general feeling is that the game mode is the epitome of why ember was nerfed. And banshee was attempted to be nerfed. and the teloce boltace was nerfed. It is the style of game play that makes me never do public exterminates outside of fissure missions where I may suffer through it for a chance at a better reward from someone else's relic.

  • There is little to no place for weapons. Even maiming strike etc is basically useless on normal in a public match with saryns, banshees, and equinoxes running around.
  • There is no place for thought - Either run in circles as equinox occasionally popping maim, stand in one place as banshee and spam 4, or cast a spore or two and do what you want to pass the time as saryn. I've run pretty much every other frame in the game just to change it up, and nope - didn't make a difference since there was always one of the aforementioned frames in there so I could run in circles hoping to maybe see an enemy or do nothing - it made no difference.
  • The rewards aren't there.  The only reason once you have Khora to set foot in Onslaught is Focus - and quite frankly, its more engaging to equinox, banshee, or ivara Adaro than this. And just as fast if not faster.  The real issue with focus is that it is something that should be able to be acquired in normal gameplay - just a thought that been requested since introduction but thats another thread.
  • Its too challenging (even normal) for the solo mid-level player.  They will need to be in a public map and will likely just stand around being bored for 20min again and again and again hoping for two things: the khora parts and to never need to do Onslaught again.  This is a big problem- because if you make it easier, you will likely only exacerbate  the first few points.

My suggestions (not necessarily to be implemented at the same time - just a few ideas)

  • Get rid of efficiency.  Stay alive to make it to the next wave. No revives other than teammates picking you up or Sacrifice mod.  When you die, you are out.  Your team will continue until they die or don't go through the next portal. 
  • If you can't (read won't) get rid of efficiency - it needs to be changed. Up the efficiency gained per kill but change it up every way - 1st wave anything goes, second wave primary weapons only count, 3rd wave - melee only, headshots only etc.. People may want to kill with abilities even when it doesn't count for efficiency perhaps to get out of a bad situation or something - but the AOE power spam would hopefully stop.
  • Tell that bully Simaris to stop with the random ability block - block everything or nothing - its just punishing a few frames
  • If you want to limit how long people can stay - limit how long they can stay - hard cap the level count. Or you will always have ppl b*tching this or that is impossible and needs to be fixed because its not endless.
  • Ditch the leaderboards until you sort out the mess of sanctuary. Once its sorted, it might be clear WHAT should count toward a leaderboard. (kills, length of time survived, average kills per wave... whatever).  Right now the award should go to most kills in least distance traveled (highest kills/meter).

There have been MANY other great suggestions including things like disappearing terrain etc - unfortunately I could understand how that would be a complete rework of level design as well - but I urge you to take the suggestions (mine and all the others) to heart and not dig your feet (head?) in the ground stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the fatal flaws of the mode in its current form.

 

 

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On 25/04/2018 at 8:58 PM, RaikasFire said:

Oh no, we're complaining about that too Tenno. We're teed off that they've ignored fixing those bugs and want to implement these "changes" to the game mode.

Fun fact is I said that as a joke.

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I notice that, i will have difficulty when grineer spawn at zone 6+ along with them being radiation (+hit scan), this reduce my chance of getting to zone 8. Died 3 times to OP hitscan.

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All I'm reading out of this is "Please go back to Adaro if you want to farm Focus."
 

Because I really don't see the logic behind capping progress behind such an artificial barrier as the efficiency counter ramp up. You guys should be rewarding player commitment and durability, not punishing players who want to stay longer and farm longer.

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So, let me guess, console is going to have the 'fixed' sanctuary onslaught with the release of the next update?

Sounds like good ol' warframe to me

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Been playing regular Onslaught for the Khora grind, and getting 60k-100k Focus on an 8 round run with Smeeta, no booster, and Greater Lenses installed.  You can see part of the reason why the daily limit was raised to 15,000 * Mastery Rank.

Edited by RealPandemonium

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On 2018-04-26 at 1:10 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

But as a mode intended to offer bite-sizedarcade style” type gameplay, we are adjusting the later stages to further limit run duration: Efficiency Stimuli will no longer appear past Zone 15, and Efficiency drain reaches 10x normal rate by Zone 20, instead of capping at 6x.

Ok...

Just though of a suggestion of this "BITE-SIZE" thingy... Instead of having the level growth exceed this range in what DE state the reward table rotation of AABC, a 4 rotation in total, leading to a full proper game play reward rotation. The level range should be in all way correctly state the level of the enemy in that said mission for a full proper rotation. Meaning, for normal onslaught, zone 1 should have level 20 minimum while a cap of level 30 at zone 8, due to the reward rotation of AABC where each reward requires 2 zones. Exceeding this, then will no longer be a "BITE-SIZE" gameplay, and such will be considered endless due to the nature of an forever-never-ending growth of level, that will no longer be within the level range of the said mission.

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Posted (edited)

The definition of bite size DE is using in this mode and the method it uses to enforce it appear to be widely considered as "not fun", "artificial", "limiting", "demotivating", "frustrating", "unrewarding"....and "cheese inducing"

If that was the intent....the game mode is a huge success. 

But if the intent was to create a mode that is actually fun to play and doesn't necessitate cheese and nuke tactics then you seriously need to revisit the mechanics and lower the efficiency drain for normal OS to sustain 2 full rotations, up the enemy spawns to actually be enough to maintain efficiency. Fix enemy pathing to prevent clumping in far off corners of the maps. And make failure depend more on skill and less on rng timers and tile sets. 

Also...I am not even a veteran...and I already have enough relics for the next 140+ hours of game play if I do nothing else but pop relics. 

Relics are needed for lower and mid level players but this insane over saturation of the relic economy just negatively impacts the trade economy in general. 

When I started I had 24 Neo Z1 relics. Now...I have 117. I have 17 scenes from rotation A, 12 scenes from B, 5 from C.  How rewarding do you think the mode actually is to play? 

Edited by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76
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I dabbled with onslaught to check it out.

Just another survival with trash mobs.

Simiaris is a con. All these elite we’ve been scanning are just the same thing.

Any new tactics? No.

Any elite mobs that have special attributes as a group? No.

In what way are players given challenges individually or as a squad?

All this to entertain a creepy AI.

 

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