Difficulty In Warframe: How To Avoid The Scaling Monster

[NotBot]

Hello fellow Tenno.

 

Today I've come to discuss difficulty in this game. From a bit of glancing over the forums difficulty in this game is either:

• Nonexistant, only end-game defensive provide any challenge, and that's merely from enemies that scale up infinitely.
• Far too extreme, enemies scale far too well, with too many ways to die, and not enough time to kill everything.

 

Please note that despite both concepts taking opposite stances on difficulty, both agree that difficulty in this game stems from enemy scaling.

 

This is a problem, as this leads to the underwhelming Corpus of Venus being the all-destroying Corpus of 100+ Outer Terminus, without ever really changing or growing smarter. The Corpus develop no new anti-Tenno tactics, they don't try to defend themselves from your preferred strategy, they do nothing. This allows the Tenno to respond in kind, by just growing more destructive and tankier, without really changing tactics or learning anything.

 

To put it simply, scaling results in a situation where you only spend the early game learning and refining your skills, and the rest is spent simply powerleveling Serration or looking for another multishot mod. This isn't an acceptable outcome.

 

Thus I propose a list of solutions to avoid the dreaded scaling monster, and encourage a continuous learning process:

 

1. Make Enemies scale less harshly, and in different ways. As it stands, the way enemies scale makes little sense. Why would a high-level infested suddenly grow tank armor as it grows more powerful? It would logically have more health and strength as it grows, but no part of its progression lends itself to the absurd armor values they can have at endgame. To go into detail about the new scaling:

• Infested: Generally grow and gain health and muscle mass as they age, making them stronger, faster, and tougher.
• Grineer: As you progress, Grineer would use better clones with superior armor, giving them more health and damage resistance.
• Corpus: As you encroach upon their profits, they would bring to bear the best technology they have, giving their average crewman better shielding, damage potential, and slight improvements to their health.

 

 

2. Have enemies slowly change out to different types as you progress. Why would anyone volunteer to guard their fellow crewmen with only a glorified cattle prod in the most dangerous area of space? Better yet, why would someone give their guards only a glorified cattle prod to defend their most sensitive projects? As it stands, the usage of certain enemy types hardly makes sense. Thus I propose some new enemy types to change out to as you reach to higher level areas.

Infested:

• Timeless Ancient: An upgrade to ancients found in later levels. Age has redistributed their one long arm into a mass of tentacles, giving them the capacity to throw an unwary Tenno. Their age has also given them the ability to passively or actively consume younger infested to heal themselves or bolster their own strength and speed.
• Screamer: A humanoid being, twisted into the shape of a bird, with straps of skin serving as makeshift wings. It constantly patrols areas looking for uninfested flesh, and emits a powerful sound whenever it finds prey, alerting infested in a wide radius, while dealing damage to shields. It will continue to pester prey and alert the infested there are infested to alert, else it will attack the prey itself by repeatedly diving.
• Merged Runner: An explosive being, obviously composed of smaller infested entities. Instead of heading straight in to attack like its predecessor, it melds itself with walls, and rushes intruders when other infested are attacking. It will also emits a flammable gas, which will ignite upon or explosion or being shot. Upon injury, it will not waste time and explode immediately upon reaching a suitable target.
• Reconfigured Charger: A streamlined beast, refined into a killing machine for the infestation. It's sharp claws allow it to dig into the metal plates, giving it the ability to climb walls and ceiling to achieve a better vantage point over it's prey. When prey is spotted, it will attempt to land the prey to stun them before beginning the attack proper. If severely wounded, it will try to get to a vantage point before striking again. When there are multiple, they will coordinate their dives to avoid overlap.
• Engorged Leaper: Age has given the leaper extreme leaping capacity, and it will pounce at prey much faster, in addition to using less linear paths to attack the unwary, such as jumping from wall to wall. It will use hit-and-run tactics by jumping in, pouncing, then jumping to a safe vantage point.

 

 

Corpus: (Has some elite units already, could use those.)

• Corpus Contractor: An assassin trained by the Corpus. He desperately avoids close combat, and will liberally use smoke and EMP grenades to scramble and disorient his targets while he lines up a shot.
• Corpus Engineer: An upgraded form of the Corpus Technician, can deploy Moas in addition to Shield Ospreys. Will avoid direct confrontation, only attacking when all threats are distracted with other things.
• Falcon: An upgrade to the Ospreys, Falcons move faster and spray smoke and emit light to escape direct confrontation.
• Hound: A small Hyena-like proxy, designed to attack in close-quarters with a Supra-like weapon. Will avoid melee engagements or superior fire by jumping away to a safe spot.

 

 

Grineer:

As it stands, the Grineer have enough units, they just need some intelligence upgrades to make those units worthwhile.

 

3. Have the enemies not be so monumentally stupid. There's honestly no nice way of putting it, enemies in this game are just dumb as rocks. They have no strategy against the Tenno, no fear of the space ninjas, not even the bold overconfidence to make the absurd scaling they have work in their favor. While the suggestions above would hopefully add some depth to the enemies in this game, the reason enemies have no depth is because they don't have the smarts to make use of what they have. While I can't tell DE what line of code to edit to give your average Grineer Lancer an I.Q. greater than 6, the A.I. does need a big overhaul.

 

TL;DR: Enemies are incompetent, and need the dumb scaling to prop them up. To remove the dumb scaling, you must first make the enemies competent.

 

Any additional commentary on the subject, whether positive or negative, will be appreciated, provided it is reasonably polite of course.

[Valafor]

"Combat Formation Bravo!" needs reworking.

[MageMeat]

The best feedback I've heard for this game since the Cells and Retaking Origin posts.

[Sophronius]

This would make for more interesting gameplay and add much needed variety to Warframe. A huge problem with Warframe currently is that it only seems to focus on farming for the next mod, more resources, or levels.

 

This would be a step in the right direction. I do not intend to set this thread awry however I would like to briefly add on that note. We could use on the side, story type missions. E.G. "Lair of the Stalker." A sequence of missions that of like a "quest" of which has great reply value.

[Metalarcher]

Yes, the scaling is crazy.  Yes, the enemies need better tactics and an I.Q. higher than 4.  Hopefully we'll get some answers tomorrow during the livestream.

[Bakercompany86]

Excellent post that addresses this games biggest issue.

[Hayden11121]

 To go into detail about the new scaling:

• Infested: Generally grow and gain health and muscle mass as they age, making them stronger, faster, and tougher.
• Grineer: As you progress, Grineer would use better clones with superior armor, giving them more health and damage resistance.
• Corpus: As you encroach upon their profits, they would bring to bear the best technology they have, giving their average crewman better shielding, damage potential, and slight improvements to their health.

I hope you realize this is what scaling is, right?

 

It's not new, just more defined. Defense would still be the same, infested would be, etc.

 

Except at level 150 Chargers become the Flash, and Grineer have the armor of Ultralisks.

[Quamobrem]

Making enemies smarter and having the lategame be about more challenging enemy types rather than "HURR GIANT ARMOR" is exactly what Warframe has needed for way, way too long.

[NotBot]

I hope you realize this is what scaling is, right?

 

It's not new, just more defined. Defense would still be the same, infested would be, etc.

 

Except at level 150 Chargers become the Flash, and Grineer have the armor of Ultralisks.

A good point.

 

While some scaling is a necessity, I feel part of the problem lies with endless defense, being, well, endless.

 

Without scaling or some kind of adaptive A.I, the difficulty remains the same, with endless defense becoming a massive chore, a test of endurance for the player, not the pod.

 

With scaling, yes defense becomes impossible, but hopefully the difficulty and stress gives it some entertainment value.

 

Unless we achieve adaptive A.I, endless defense is going to have some flaws in bringing a challenge.

[Hayden11121]

A good point.

 

While some scaling is a necessity, I feel part of the problem lies with endless defense, being, well, endless.

 

Without scaling or some kind of adaptive A.I, the difficulty remains the same, with endless defense becoming a massive chore, a test of endurance for the player, not the pod.

 

With scaling, yes defense becomes impossible, but hopefully the difficulty and stress gives it some entertainment value.

 

Unless we achieve adaptive A.I, endless defense is going to have some flaws in bringing a challenge.

I realize I am going to far saying all of this, and this comment may offend those who work for DE, BUTTT

 

 

Realistically, look at every wall there is. Now tell the infested to use them to attack us, now, give them animations, speed, damage, rework their mechanics.

 

Tell them to jump wall to wall. Tell them how to react when players get shaded or turn invis, tell them how to react when they die.

 

 

DE can barely balance the weapons and frames they have, and not even then. I doubt they are experienced enough to make this work.

 

 

What's all that for though? A nova is going to slow them, or a rhino is still going to stomp them all to oblivion.

 

Balance to weapons needs to come first. What's the use of having smart enemies if they are still 1 shot en masse by a rocket launcher with 540 rockets?

[NotBot]

I realize I am going to far saying all of this, and this comment may offend those who work for DE, BUTTT

 

 

Realistically, look at every wall there is. Now tell the infested to use them to attack us, now, give them animations, speed, damage, rework their mechanics.

 

Tell them to jump wall to wall. Tell them how to react when players get shaded or turn invis, tell them how to react when they die.

 

 

DE can barely balance the weapons and frames they have, and not even then. I doubt they are experienced enough to make this work.

 

 

What's all that for though? A nova is going to slow them, or a rhino is still going to stomp them all to oblivion.

 

Balance to weapons needs to come first. What's the use of having smart enemies if they are still 1 shot en masse by a rocket launcher with 540 rockets?

Again, a fair point.

 

A player's ability to affect the environment plays a major part in making the environment an interesting place. However, I do feel that the player's ability to act and the environment's ability to respond are one and the same. Even if the frames and weapons achieve a state of balance, what is there to do with these tools, but pit them against the same enemies they've always come across? And yes, while what I propose may not be the easiest solution, it is doable, and it would be most certainly to the game's benefit.

[Bakercompany86]

On their base level, the weapons seem very balanced with each other.  This game actually has a nice horizontal progression system already built in it.

 

They just slapped these ridiculous damage mods in there to compensate for bloated enemy EHPs.

 

If they found a way to bring that back down to earth, the weapons by themselves are excellent.  It's the mods and the enemy scaling that break this game for me.

[Hayden11121]

Again, a fair point.

 

A player's ability to affect the environment plays a major part in making the environment an interesting place. However, I do feel that the player's ability to act and the environment's ability to respond are one and the same. Even if the frames and weapons achieve a state of balance, what is there to do with these tools, but pit them against the same enemies they've always come across? And yes, while what I propose may not be the easiest solution, it is doable, and it would be most certainly to the game's benefit.

I enjoy this argument btw, it's a fun discussion.

 

I did not state we don't need AI, I am 100000% all for smart enemies, the biggest rant thread I ever wrote should have included AI, but there was really no way players can suggest making things better, DE has to do it in realistic terms, and most players aren't realistic.

 

But the way I see it is Balance and AI need to be reworked.

 

But if one had to be chosen first, it'd be balance, for the reasons I just stated.

 

 

There is no reason to have different enemies if the Acrid can kill them all.

[NotBot]

I enjoy this argument btw, it's a fun discussion.

 

I did not state we don't need AI, I am 100000% all for smart enemies, the biggest rant thread I ever wrote should have included AI, but there was really no way players can suggest making things better, DE has to do it in realistic terms, and most players aren't realistic.

 

But the way I see it is Balance and AI need to be reworked.

 

But if one had to be chosen first, it'd be balance, for the reasons I just stated.

 

 

There is no reason to have different enemies if the Acrid can kill them all.

I would contest that, I would feel no better about what speed Nova can kill 1 million Grineer if all the Grineer are the same uninteresting Lancer.

Indeed I would feel better if Nova could kill them faster, just so I don't have to have a repeat of the same fight I've already fought a thousand times over.

 

But alas, I feel at this point the debate must end, for we have reached the gates of Principle and Opinion, and beyond lies only flaming and trolling.

You've made good points dear adversary.

[Evauia]

I like your suggestions, particularly the new enemy units.  That is one of the big problems is the enemy factions use all of their top tier units right away seemingly and they just become more bullet spongy from that point on.  They should save the smart, top-tier units for high level battles only.

 

Also a MAJOR problem is this games reliance on Endless Defense as the MEANS for progression and "end-game"(can we come up with a new term already?).  Alot of suggestions seem to get shot down because of how it effects endless defense... but endless defense is the actual problem.  It is repetitive and doesn't serve as meaningful, engaging content.  Yeah it can be intense but that's only because of shear math.  The focus of end game needs to shift to more meaningful and engaging missions with smarter and more efficient enemies.