Damage Calculation Conumdrum

[Grimmstyler]

Id make a video.. But theres just too much involved..

Can someone explain why my Harpak is not doing at least 1500 damage on critical hit to a Volatile Runner at lvl 10 or lvl 155?

Spoiler

 

LEVEL 10

LEVEL 155

 

[DrBorris]

You are forgetting about multi-shot, The damage per individual bullet per shot in your build is only 132, then multiplied by your crit multiplier of 5.1x gives 673.2. So then if you counted in damage resistances that makes sense to lead to a total of 710 damage per hit.

Then of course when you fire the trigger you will always fire two bullets and have a 50% chance to fire a third. The average of the totals of shooting two and three bullets is the total damage you see.

 

(Also because infested have no armor there is no form of scaling damage reduction, thus you deal the same amount of damage per hit no matter the level).

If you really want to learn the inner workings of damage, I recommend starting with the wiki... http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

 

[Airwolfen]

The stats include multishot as damage. Multishot however is not damage but extra bullets that deal separate counts of damage.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

First off, no offense, but I feel bad for ya playing warframe in such a res. 

Second, this is due to multishot, it shows total probable damage per shot, not per bullet/pellet.

[Grimmstyler]

4 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

You are forgetting about multi-shot, The damage per individual bullet per shot in your build is only 132, then multiplied by your crit multiplier of 5.1x gives 673.2. So then if you counted in damage resistances that makes sense to lead to a total of 710 damage per hit.

Then of course when you fire the trigger you will always fire two bullets and have a 50% chance to fire a third. The average of the totals of shooting two and three bullets is the total damage you see.

 

(Also because infested have no armor there is no form of scaling damage reduction, thus you deal the same amount of damage per hit no matter the level).

If you really want to learn the inner workings of damage, I recommend starting with the wiki... http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

 

Damn... So multishot not only dilutes your Status Chance.. But it dilutes your Damage too? But it doesnt dilute your critical chance or critical multiplier..

I cant go thru and read the Wiki.. its too much.. This is why a simple in game UI would be helpful, instead of having to figure out the incognito stats..

[Airwolfen]

17 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Damn... So multishot not only dilutes your Status Chance.. But it dilutes your Damage too? But it doesnt dilute your critical chance or critical multiplier..

I cant go thru and read the Wiki.. its too much.. This is why a simple in game UI would be helpful, instead of having to figure out the incognito stats..

it does not "dilute" your damage because the damage gets added when you add multishot as well. is still a DPS upgrade.

Otherwise multishot would not only add damage but also shoot a second bullet or just be another base damage mod with a fancy name. And those don't make sense.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Airwolfen

[Get_Singed]

22 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Damn... So multishot not only dilutes your Status Chance.. But it dilutes your Damage too? But it doesnt dilute your critical chance or critical multiplier..

I cant go thru and read the Wiki.. its too much.. This is why a simple in game UI would be helpful, instead of having to figure out the incognito stats..

Multishot doesn't actually dilute any stats, you simply need to be aware that the stats of the weapon before adding multishot are what the weapon's actual stats are per basic shot. Multishot simply adds more bullets/pellets to the mix, where all newly created bullets/pellets have identical stats to the bullets/pellets in a basic shot.

[Grimmstyler]

Just now, Airwolfen said:

it does not "dilute" your damade because the damage gets added when you add multishot as well. is still a DPS upgrade.

Yea.. It totals your potential damage of each status type including Multishot.. But doesnt total them all for a total damage.. You have to add them to get total damage output.. And a shot doesnt guarantee a critical on every shot either (including multishot)..

Then if i wanted to know the damage of just 1 shot id have to remove the Multishot to see how much 1 shot would do..  

Im just a dummy and forgot that Multishot adds Damage and Status.. And the number shown is not the base damage or Status Chance..

Again.. This is why a simpler UI should be implemented.. Because im a dummy and forget sh*t..

[taiiat]

40 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Damn... So multishot not only dilutes your Status Chance.. But it dilutes your Damage too?

it doesn't dilute anything, it manufactures free bullets for you. Multi-Shot is always an upgrade to Damage and Crits/Status. no worries.
you're just shooting 3 (9 in one Burst since it's Harpak) Projectiles per Shot on average, which means you aren't going to see a single Damage Number for the value you expect, but instead you'd see three of them for ~1/3 (give or take) of what you're expecting. same total Damage still, just hitting 3 times instead of once.

 

however this is probably the first time i've heard someone want less Mods to display in your Arsenal Stats, interesting.

[Airwolfen]

13 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

Multishot doesn't actually dilute any stats, you simply need to be aware that the stats of the weapon before adding multishot are what the weapon's actual stats are per basic shot. Multishot simply adds more bullets/pellets to the mix, where all newly created bullets/pellets have identical stats to the bullets/pellets in a basic shot.

Have to give it to grimm that it DOES dilute status. Even though the status goes up when ading multishot its just showing the probability of a single proc. however what actually happens is that for example 50% status gets divided over 2 bullets instead of both having 50%. making the ACTUAL status chance still ~50% for 1 proc

6 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Yea.. It totals your potential damage of each status type including Multishot.. But doesnt total them all for a total damage.. You have to add them to get total damage output.. And a shot doesnt guarantee a critical on every shot either (including multishot)..

Then if i wanted to know the damage of just 1 shot id have to remove the Multishot to see how much 1 shot would do..  

Im just a dummy and forgot that Multishot adds Damage and Status.. And the number shown is not the base damage or Status Chance..

Again.. This is why a simpler UI should be implemented.. Because im a dummy and forget sh*t..

For this it would not even have to be simpler. (though that does have its advantages)

But for starters bullet count is a stat that NEEDS to be added in and at the same time all effects of multishot on stats needs to be removed. Damage should stay static and status should stay static. (an added stat of chance per bullet would also be a nice addition though that may confuse people)

If you have any questions on the matter of multishot and how it effects stuff ask and I'll try to answer in a simple manner,

[Grimmstyler]

8 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

Multishot doesn't actually dilute any stats, you simply need to be aware that the stats of the weapon before adding multishot are what the weapon's actual stats are per basic shot. Multishot simply adds more bullets/pellets to the mix, where all newly created bullets/pellets have identical stats to the bullets/pellets in a basic shot.

Yup.. It can be a headache sometimes.. I say dilute because Multishot adds the damage in the statistics without recognition of projectiles in the stats or base damage of 1 projectile.. Its a pain in the ass with shotguns cause they have different pellet counts..

[Get_Singed]

Just now, Airwolfen said:

Have to give it to grimm that it DOES dilute status. Even though the status goes up when ading multishot its just showing the probability of a single proc. however what actually happens is that for example 50% status gets divided over 2 bullets instead of both having 50%. making the ACTUAL status chance still ~50% for 1 proc

For this it would not even have to be simpler. (though that does have its advantages)

But for starters bullet count is a stat that NEEDS to be added in and at the same time all effects of multishot on stats needs to be removed. Damage should stay static and status should stay static. (an added stat of chance per bullet would also be a nice addition though that may confuse people)

If you have any questions on the matter of multishot and how it effects stuff ask and I'll try to answer in a simple manner,

It doesn't dilute status chance. The status chance of each bullet after adding multishot is identical to the status chance of each bullet before multishot, and that chance is NEVER reduced per bullet due to the addition of multishot.

For example, if a weapon has 50% status chance and you add 100% multishot, it will show that the weapon now has 75% status chance due to having two bullets with a 50% chance to proc status each. The status chance of each bullet has not been diluted at all. It is exactly the same as it was originally.

[Grimmstyler]

1 minute ago, Airwolfen said:

Have to give it to grimm that it DOES dilute status. Even though the status goes up when ading multishot its just showing the probability of a single proc. however what actually happens is that for example 50% status gets divided over 2 bullets instead of both having 50%. making the ACTUAL status chance still ~50% for 1 proc

I dont think Multishot does dilute Status Chance.. if anything it would help proc a second status.. Or 1 if the first hasnt proced.. The only reason i say dilute is because its all added in the stats and i dont know what the base status or damage is.. 

Whats so damn confusing is the pellet count of a shotgun is considered 1 shot.. But the status and damage is divided by each pellet.. Then Multishot is a second shot with the same stats..

But a rifle has lesser projectiles but a higher status chance and damage at each projectile.. 

Confusing! Need UI support! 

 

 

 

[Get_Singed]

4 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

I dont think Multishot does dilute Status Chance.. if anything it would help proc a second status.. Or 1 if the first hasnt proced.. The only reason i say dilute is because its all added in the stats and i dont know what the base status or damage is.. 

Whats so damn confusing is the pellet count of a shotgun is considered 1 shot.. But the status and damage is divided by each pellet.. Then Multishot is a second shot with the same stats..

But a rifle has lesser projectiles but a higher status chance and damage at each projectile.. 

Confusing! Need UI support! 

 

 

 

Shotguns do get confusing, but all you really need to know is that if your shotgun does not show 100% status chance before any multishot mods are added, it's not a status weapon.

[Grimmstyler]

15 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

It doesn't dilute status chance. The status chance of each bullet after adding multishot is identical to the status chance of each bullet before multishot, and that chance is NEVER reduced per bullet due to the addition of multishot.

For example, if a weapon has 50% status chance and you add 100% multishot, it will show that the weapon now has 75% status chance due to having two bullets with a 50% chance to proc status each. The status chance of each bullet has not been diluted at all. It is exactly the same as it was originally.

Right  

I just forget the Multishot is added to the stats.. When i see my harpak doing at least 300 damage.. I automatically assume each projectile is doing 300 damage, I dont account for the Multishot stats BECAUSE THERES NO INDICATION ! (other than a multishot mod itself)

[Airwolfen]

22 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

It doesn't dilute status chance. The status chance of each bullet after adding multishot is identical to the status chance of each bullet before multishot, and that chance is NEVER reduced per bullet due to the addition of multishot.

For example, if a weapon has 50% status chance and you add 100% multishot, it will show that the weapon now has 75% status chance due to having two bullets with a 50% chance to proc status each. The status chance of each bullet has not been diluted at all. It is exactly the same as it was originally.

wont go into it all that far but it does get diluted.

I'll take calculations I did with my kohm as an example. Dont know what the actual calculation values were but I ended up wth on average 4 procs out of 12 in 1 shot. Then I added in multishot and there it was, on average, just over 4 procs

Sure the average of 1 single proc is just fine but it in no way calculates multiple procs in one hit for higher pallet weapons. Not only Shotguns but also other weapons that have inate multishot.

So in short. it does indeed get diluted.

(small edit: as to why I would like the stats I listed to be added in game)

Edited April 28, 2018 by Airwolfen

[Grimmstyler]

3 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

Shotguns do get confusing, but all you really need to know is that if your shotgun does not show 100% status chance before any multishot mods are added, it's not a status weapon.

Basically.. Shotguns seem to do better Crit built.. Unless you can reach 100% status.. Or depending on Crit Chance, high damage

[Grimmstyler]

3 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

(small edit: as to why I would like the stats I listed to be added in game)

I agree with stats being added.. Have stats quartered for multishot and pellet count to show a base damage.. But still give a total damage..

Not just Everything added together then i have to decipher it all.. GIVE ME A SIMPLE STATS UI TOO! 

[Get_Singed]

10 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

wont go into it all that far but it does get diluted.

I'll take calculations I did with my kohm as an example. Dont know what the actual calculation values were but I ended up wth on average 4 procs out of 12 in 1 shot. Then I added in multishot and there it was, on average, just over 4 procs

Sure the average of 1 single proc is just fine but it in no way calculates multiple procs in one hit for higher pallet weapons. Not only Shotguns but also other weapons that have inate multishot.

So in short. it does indeed get diluted.

(small edit: as to why I would like the stats I listed to be added in game)

That's simply due to you happening to get a similar number of procs, but it is confirmed that the status chance per bullet/pellet does not drop. It's just that the visual status chance after multishot is misleading.

[fluffysnowcap]

Multy shot is good for status on all weapons other than weapons that fire multably projectile's by default like shotguns and the cernous prime.

[Grimmstyler]

1 minute ago, Get_Singed said:

That's simply due to you happening to get a similar number of procs, but it is confirmed that the status chance per bullet/pellet does not drop. It's just that the visual status chance after multishot is misleading.

Status per pellet count is not diluted but limited to 1/2 pellets?.. If status was not "limited" in a shotgun, id be seeing more status procs..  Heres a good example..

 

[Grimmstyler]

You know especially with a mod like [Hunter Munitions].. It would be nice to know what the base damage is..

[fluffysnowcap]

Paper and a pen or warframes builder.

[Airwolfen]

16 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

That's simply due to you happening to get a similar number of procs, but it is confirmed that the status chance per bullet/pellet does not drop. It's just that the visual status chance after multishot is misleading.

That's the thing... it does drop.

Remembered where I got my values from, it was from a comparason between 99% and 100% with and without multishot.

Here is the album from that time. https://imgur.com/a/JTQR3
Specifically look at the 2 sets of 99% with and without multishot. it shows a actual drop in status per pellet when the amount of pellets goes up. This is the in game calculation for status btw to decide the per pellet status. Also shows why the thing breaks at 100% and why it needs to be before multishot.

You can actually apply this same calculation on weapons that only shoot one bullet and then a second gets added through multishot. the average will actually stay about the same. So that is clearly a dilution of status chance.

[Get_Singed]

45 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

That's the thing... it does drop.

Remembered where I got my values from, it was from a comparason between 99% and 100% with and without multishot.

Here is the album from that time. https://imgur.com/a/JTQR3
Specifically look at the 2 sets of 99% with and without multishot. it shows a actual drop in status per pellet when the amount of pellets goes up. This is the in game calculation for status btw to decide the per pellet status. Also shows why the thing breaks at 100% and why it needs to be before multishot.

You can actually apply this same calculation on weapons that only shoot one bullet and then a second gets added through multishot. the average will actually stay about the same. So that is clearly a dilution of status chance.

The problem with your calcuations there is that you're assuming the overall chance to proc a status effect is remaining the same while the number of attempts to proc a status effect per shot is increasing. That's why there's a flaw in your math. 99% status chance split among 12 pellets will of course be a higher chance per pellet than 99% status chance split among 26 pellets. You're getting false results because of that. Actually look at any weapon, apply multishot mods to the weapon, use the correct formula and you'll see that the status chance per pellet/bullet doesn't change after adding multishot.