Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Venari totally broken in conclave


ACiREx
 Share

Recommended Posts

After the khora ability rework I've seen several Khora in conclave, with their TOTALLY FREE companion Venari that can infinitely revive and can literally one-shot frames even escaped from the range. This is like Ignis right after its rework. I wonder if she could use some balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting kills with venari requires a lot of actual effort, just take a look at this clip:

> No energy required to make it respawn after 45 seconds from being killed (can be rushed by pressing 3 but it actually costs energy)

> Is an autonomous entity that makes the enemy split attention between a potential insta-kill and other players.

 > Depending on stance can also disarm enemies or provide a huge healing buff, aside from giving khora (a tanky frame) +10% mobility simply for being there doing cat things. Changing stance can be done without energy cost.

Seeing those things i guess it's safe to say that Venari is too powerful for a passive ability since these are meant to aid in battle, not fight on their own. And it's even worst when compared to passives of frames like Nyx, Vauban or Rhino which are useless in conclave.

Edited by Stormdragon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Getting kills with venari requires a lot of actual effort, just take a look at this clip:

 

Where in someone stands still for 4 seconds to let the cat get close enough to actually kill? Don't get me wrong, Venari needs changes. But showing a clip of somebody standing still typing for a few seconds as proof something is broken is pretty poor, since literally any weapon would have killed somebody under the same circumstances. You could have gone for a clip of the mentioned "Venari kills someone halfway across the map while you are busy playing the game", or somebody barely touching down near Venari but Venari chains and kills them anyway even though they left right after. Plenty of actual problems you could have clipped instead of a perfect scenario in which a summons does exactly what you'd expect.

Edited by Dusteon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dusteon said:

Where in someone stands still for 4 seconds to let the cat get close enough to actually kill?

The fact that I'm typing while venari gets the kill should be enough proof of kt requiring no player input in order to do anything.

3 minutes ago, Dusteon said:

You could have gone for a clip of the mentioned "Venari kills someone halfway across the map while you are busy playing the game", or somebody barely touching down near Venari but Venari chains and kills them anyway even though they left right after.

Got that covered, man. Just keep an eye on the minimap for this one.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Stormdragon said:

The fact that I'm typing while venari gets the kill should be enough proof of kt requiring no player input in order to do anything.

The fact the enemy stood still for 4+ seconds had more to do with that though. The exact same thing would happen with Atlas 4, or Loki 1, or somebody using the Pox, or standing directly on Hydroid tentacles. You can't use proof that relies on the enemy being terrible at the game as evidence something needs changes.

Again: Venari does need changes. She's currently 'balanced' by her absurd squishiness, terrible mobility, bad AI, and inability to actually hit anything in the air. That's obviously not a good balance point though as it's not fun for Khora (her pet is a moron who'd rather run after somebody half the map away instead of the guy shooting you and dies in 1-2 good hits) and it's not fun for her enemies (you sometimes just die because you landed near a cat and the cat decided to instantly murder you). She should be balanced around being a helper to Khora, or requiring Khora's help to regularly kill people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dusteon said:

The fact the enemy stood still for 4+ seconds had more to do with that though. The exact same thing would happen with Atlas 4, or Loki 1, or somebody using the Pox, or standing directly on Hydroid tentacles.

The things yoy named all require player input to certain degree and wouldn't get a kill totally on their own:

Rumblers and Decoy require the user to cast them: rumblers temporarily locks the user in animation, has a set duration of 20 seconds and consumes 100 energy; decoy consumes 25 energy and lives only for 6 seconds while dealing 50% of weapon damage; Venari lives as long as its 140 HP allow it and can respawn for free with no player input either because timer ends or user gets killed and respawns as well.

Hydroid tentacles require the user to slam at least near the standing target, has limited range, doesn't insta kill and last only 5 seconds, whereas Venari will go hunting on it's own as long as it's HP allow her.

Pox is a projectile weapon, and as such requires the user to aim at the standing target, calculate it's flight to make it land near to it, aim accordingly (or get close to it) and then press click. Which is still way more input than simply open chat while meditating in a random place.

1 minute ago, Dusteon said:

You can't use proof that relies on the enemy being terrible at the game as evidence something needs changes.

I'd like to see you fighting against Pytha before saying that the enemy here is terrible at the game. These were tests on a controlled environment, not actual matches were Venari can jump on unsuspecting players to provide free kills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

The things yoy named all require player input to certain degree and wouldn't get a kill totally on their own:

Rumblers and Decoy require the user to cast them: rumblers temporarily locks the user in animation, has a set duration of 20 seconds and consumes 100 energy; decoy consumes 25 energy and lives only for 6 seconds while dealing 50% of weapon damage; Venari lives as long as its 140 HP allow it and can respawn for free with no player input either because timer ends or user gets killed and respawns as well.

Hydroid tentacles require the user to slam at least near the standing target, has limited range, doesn't insta kill and last only 5 seconds, whereas Venari will go hunting on it's own as long as it's HP allow her.

Pox is a projectile weapon, and as such requires the user to aim at the standing target, calculate it's flight to make it land near to it, aim accordingly (or get close to it) and then press click. Which is still way more input than simply open chat while meditating in a random place.

I'd like to see you fighting against Pytha before saying that the enemy here is terrible at the game. These were tests on a controlled environment, not actual matches were Venari can jump on unsuspecting players to provide free kills.

All of those weapons require some input, yes. If pressing a single button can count as input, or pressing left click on the ground once. Again, the issue is your 'proof' is based on the enemy standing still for 4 seconds straight. Literally any weapon or ability will look strong in that scenario, and using that scenario as evidence is silly. It's even sillier since there are legitimate issues with Venari that need addressing, and cluttering the issues with "look I killed Pythadragon because he stood still for 4 seconds!" detracts from discussing those issues.

As a note, I've already fought against Pytha before. I already know like most of the "let's name ourselves ending in -dragon" people he's a Conclave player who is good. My statement was based on the standing still for 4 seconds. That's not something that happens in actual Conclave games, where people are always moving around and don't tend to suddenly AFK in the middle of a fight to let a cat waddle up and kill them. You cannot base the strength of a skill or ability on how strong it is against somebody playing like a MR 0 Excalibur.

And, again, Venari has issues that need to be addressed. I have repeatedly said that. Making statements with the backup proof being somebody playing badly does not help fix those issues though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The standing still during 4 seconds has actually nothing to do with the test, you're just dismissing the proof of venari requiring no player input to kill simply because he stopped moving for said time despite recognizing that venari is actually a no-brainer way to get kills and needs changes. As you can see, I'm not aiming, can't press keys since chat is open, yet the cat still respawns for free and engages on an enemy on its own which is the thing that I'm trying to show. I don't see the point on this discussion since we both agree on venari requiring changes and i have already provided a clip of venari getting a kill on someone in the other side of the map while roaming almost on his own which is also one of the issues requiring changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Stormdragon said:

The standing still during 4 seconds has actually nothing to do with the test, you're just dismissing the proof of venari requiring no player input to kill simply because he stopped moving for said time despite recognizing that venari is actually a no-brainer way to get kills and needs changes. As you can see, I'm not aiming, can't press keys since chat is open, yet the cat still respawns for free and engages on an enemy on its own which is the thing that I'm trying to show. I don't see the point on this discussion since we both agree on venari requiring changes and i have already provided a clip of venari getting a kill on someone in the other side of the map while roaming almost on his own which is also one of the issues requiring changes.

Because "can kill without input after being summoned" isn't a all encompassing or even particularly useful test. It is akin to saying Loki's Decoy is gamebreakingly powerful because someone stood still next to it for the full duration and died, or that Trinity's Link needs nerfs because someone stood nearby it, hit Trinity, and died.

Both of those require about the same input as Venari (one button press, assuming you are playing vs actual players with weapons who know to shoot the cat thus necessitating resummoning it often), and have the same result in the given scenario. It's not useful evidence because it doesn't showcase any of the actual issues in a meaningful way (Venari's massive damage, Venari doing said damage ~.5-1 second after chains appear even if the player dodges away, Venari's terrible AI, etc.) and detracts from discussing them because it instead focuses on one singular aspect in a perfect scenario.

I'd rather have a discussion on what the issues are, and ways to fix them while keeping Venari as a somewhat useful ability. I do not feel balancing around perfect case scenarios such as yours is worth doing though, as any summoned entity should kill a player if given free ability to attack a stationary target for 4 seconds straight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Dusteon said:

I'd rather have a discussion on what the issues are, and ways to fix them while keeping Venari as a somewhat useful ability. I do not feel balancing around perfect case scenarios such as yours is worth doing though, as any summoned entity should kill a player if given free ability to attack a stationary target for 4 seconds straight.

The point is simole but you seem to not get it: Any other summoned entity has a casting animation, consumes energy, disappears after a set time, will either stay in place dealing reduced damage (decoy) or will stay relatively close to the caster (rumblers, which is also busted atm) and offer actual changes of fighting them back even after engaging combat since these can miss shots and won't instantly kill anything they attack; Venari doesn't have any of these drawbacks (it did before being reworked and was still dealing too much damage, but at least it required 75 energy to summon and would die after 20 seconds or once it's 350HP got depleted) so there is no point for Venari to also be way more powerful than any of them. It's dumb AI and low HP (140) are the only things holding it back from being actually better than most players using khora in pvp atm, and even then it's still a bigger threat than most of them.

As pointed before: 

1 hour ago, Stormdragon said:

> No energy required to make it respawn after 45 seconds from being killed (can be rushed by pressing 3 but it actually costs energy)

> Is an autonomous entity that makes the enemy split attention between a potential insta-kill and other players.

 > Depending on stance can also disarm enemies or provide a huge healing buff, aside from giving khora (a tanky frame) +10% mobility simply for being there doing cat things. Changing stance can be done without energy cost.

Venari has too much going on for it compared to the low effort required to be brought into a battle which is simply "pick Khora".

And the previous list is omitting the lack of an animation or noise to allow players to at least react in order to avoid being caught by the inescapable chains that venari trigers before doing it's instant kill attack. And yes, those are inescapable since no matter how far you manage to move from them, venari will still kill you even with abilities providing damage reduction like hysteria turned on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Stormdragon said:

The point is simole but you seem to not get it: Any other summoned entity has a casting animation, consumes energy, disappears after a set time, will either stay in place dealing reduced damage (decoy) or will stay relatively close to the caster (rumblers, which is also busted atm) and offer actual changes of fighting them back even after engaging combat since these can miss shots and won't instantly kill anything they attack; Venari doesn't have any of these drawbacks (it did before being reworked and was still dealing too much damage, but at least it required 75 energy to summon and would die after 20 seconds or once it's 350HP got depleted) so there is no point for Venari to also be way more powerful than any of them. It's dumb AI and low HP (140) are the only things holding it back from being actually better than most players using khora in pvp atm, and even then it's still a bigger threat than most of them.

As pointed before: 

Venari has too much going on for it compared to the low effort required to be brought into a battle which is simply "pick Khora".

And the previous list is omitting the lack of an animation or noise to allow players to at least react in order to avoid being caught by the inescapable chains that venari trigers before doing it's instant kill attack. And yes, those are inescapable since no matter how far you manage to move from them, venari will still kill you even with abilities providing damage reduction like hysteria turned on.

I already know the chains are inescapable and mentioned that further up this thread. It's one of the many issues Venari has, which is that after Venari has briefly touched an enemy it is targeting that enemy just dies.

Again: Venari needs it's issues fixed. That includes the terrible AI and low HP, as if the damage is fixed but not those Venari loses any usefulness and is a wasted ability. Personally (among a lot of other changes; I could write an entire thread on this) I'd prefer Venari either had it's damage split over 3 ticks and required the enemy be within range of Venari for damage ticks to go through (which requires an enemy be CC'd in some way by Khora, or very unaware, or low health to die), OR for Venari's damage to be likewise lowered but have it's successful attacks inflict a minor knockdown (which rewards Khora with an easier shot if she can follow up on Venari, and makes Venari less threatening by itself).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Dusteon said:

I already know the chains are inescapable and mentioned that further up this thread. It's one of the many issues Venari has, which is that after Venari has briefly touched an enemy it is targeting that enemy just dies.

Again: Venari needs it's issues fixed. That includes the terrible AI and low HP, as if the damage is fixed but not those Venari loses any usefulness and is a wasted ability. Personally (among a lot of other changes; I could write an entire thread on this) I'd prefer Venari either had it's damage split over 3 ticks and required the enemy be within range of Venari for damage ticks to go through (which requires an enemy be CC'd in some way by Khora, or very unaware, or low health to die), OR for Venari's damage to be likewise lowered but have it's successful attacks inflict a minor knockdown (which rewards Khora with an easier shot if she can follow up on Venari, and makes Venari less threatening by itself).

Currently Venari is Khora's passive, and as a passive ability it can take a very active role in battle, at least in pvp, i think it should go back to be a summoned ability as it was before khora's changed were applied. We already have precedents of both, active and passive abilities being amazingly reworked to fit a PvP environment, being abilities like Nekros' Terrify, Desecrate and Shadows of the Dead; Banshee's Silence; and some passives like Trinity's and Oberon's the best example of these changes. A change like this could alllow Venari's HP to get a decent buff while allowing her to remain either as a damage dealing, utility, or healing power depending on player needs (damage, AI and HP would need to be adjusted, as you pointed, in order to make it useful without being too powerful) and would also open room for Khora to have an actual passive skill that doesn't frustrate players for granting random kills to her users.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Currently Venari is Khora's passive, and as a passive ability it can take a very active role in battle, at least in pvp, i think it should go back to be a summoned ability as it was before khora's changed were applied. We already have precedents of both, active and passive abilities being amazingly reworked to fit a PvP environment, being abilities like Nekros' Terrify, Desecrate and Shadows of the Dead; Banshee's Silence; and some passives like Trinity's and Oberon's the best example of these changes. A change like this could alllow Venari's HP to get a decent buff while allowing her to remain either as a damage dealing, utility, or healing power depending on player needs (damage, AI and HP would need to be adjusted, as you pointed, in order to make it useful without being too powerful) and would also open room for Khora to have an actual passive skill that doesn't frustrate players for granting random kills to her users.

I think Venari as a passive is fine and helps differentiate Khora as the beastmaster/summons frame as opposed to a frame who sometimes has a beast, although I'd like to have the time to 'normally' respawn increased a bit and require casting 3 again when her passive Venari is out for the full Venari stats. Something like passive is current frail cat with lowered damage, if Khora uses 25 energy it reinforces it to normal cat levels. Cats summoned via 3 always use Reinforced cat but cost 25 energy + normal summoning cost based on time. As before though, Venari still should have the one shots removed or require further investment by Khora to go off as the cat to begin with should not be one shotting people unless Khora did something to enable the full cat attacks (such as successfully land her 1/2), or the enemy stood still and enabled the full cat attacks.

That keeps Venari as a cool passive that reinforced Khora's identity, and requires some investment from the player to get the full effect. I wouldn't be fully opposed to Venari being summons only but I would prefer they kept her as a passive if possible since Venari is the only cool or interesting part of Khora's kit and the more time spent with a cat the better (even if her passive kavat is a frail, mostly decorative kavat until reinforced).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if Venari did nothing offensively until you cast 3 it would still be overtuned as a passive. Splitting your opponent's attention, representing a potential damage threat, having more EHP than a lot of frames, and sometimes tanking a shot or two is more than a passive should do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dusteon said:

That's not something that happens in actual Conclave games, where people are always moving around and don't tend to suddenly AFK in the middle of a fight to let a cat waddle up and kill them. You cannot base the strength of a skill or ability on how strong it is against somebody playing like a MR 0 Excalibur.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Conclave Tenno! Venari's damage in conclave will be scaled down in the next Update.

Good to hear, though I stand by what I said earlier about it being overtuned as a passive. I didn't even mention (due to forgetting) that Khora is bumped up a mobility class by Venari, putting her roughly tied with Zephyr Prime as the tankiest 0.9 mobility frame while Venari is on the field. No other frame gains nearly as much without energy investment, even if Venari deals zero damage before casting 3.

Edited by Theroxenes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Conclave Tenno! Venari's damage in conclave will be scaled down in the next Update.

I'm sorry but I guess a simple damage scaling ain't gonna solve here anything. You can see how the whole kavat in the conclave is overly buggy. Look at the video of Dusteon the kavat starts the animation but by the time it finishes he is far away from the tenno already. The fact that you pass by a kavat like he does and no matter the time you spend next to the kavat it will immediately start the attack animation if you enter the range makes it game-breaking. Yes it is breaking the game to have a kavat that instantly scores a hit if you enter the line of sight even if just for a second. No human is capable of doing that with a melee strike. If you only tune down the damage conclave will be a 100% Khora territory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-04-30 at 3:37 PM, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Conclave Tenno! Venari's damage in conclave will be scaled down in the next Update.

Venari is still overpowered in attack stance, it can still grab enemies in a split second and even tough the damage was cut from 350 to 150, the multi hit strike keeps it as a passive with the power to randomly insta kill anyone.
It also seems to bypass defensive measures such as mind control or even spawn protection as seen in the video below:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

As seen in the video, Venari can attack other players even before the match starts (luckily that kill nor the oro granted from it didn't count, at least during this test).

In my opinion, the best ways to balance Venari would be:

A) Make venari a summoned ability again.

B) Keep Venari as a passive ability, but make her use only its basic attack (the claw one used during heal posture) and special ones, such as chaining and disarming, only on manually marked enemies.

Keeping Venari as a passive would require a few changes like:
- Increasing the cost of manually marking enemies.
- Allowing it to miss and make the user waste energy if the ability isn't casted on an enemy just like most targeted abilities (in the same way as Ash' Shuriken, Nekros' Soul Punch, Nyx' Mind Control and Psychic Bolts, etc) this prevents mindless button mashing while praying for the power to make effect.
- Make marks expire if user dies before being used.
- Remove Venari's insta kill capabilities: Currently there is no big reason to use Khora's kit other than reviving venari simply because even with the low HP, having an autonomous companion able to instantly kill anything is too good to be dismissed. Reward players able to succesfully mark enemies for Venari to attack with a decent amount of damaeg, but do not take the spotlight out from Strangledome, which should be khora's most powerful ability.
- Reduce the maximum distance between Khora and Venari. It's neat to navigate the map and see venari taking an alternate route to follow me, however seeing her attack another player who was completely unaware of me (while i had probably not even seen him in the minimap, so I'm entirely unaware of him as well) and granting me a kill with no effort feels really bad.

Changes like these could also open room for Venari to get a buff in durability since her effectivenes in battle would be tied to her master's capabilities, allowing for skilled gameplay instead of running away from everything while praying for the cat to make everything else.

Edited by Stormdragon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-04-30 at 11:37 AM, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Conclave Tenno! Venari's damage in conclave will be scaled down in the next Update.

Great, now reduce her attack speed and range OOOOOOOORRR make her count as a kill, no Oro just a kill. If you dont kill Venari you die 90% of the time and then youve focused the cat so much that you're dead anyway. Look who killed me here... rRyH4Na.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Venari still remains completely broken in Conclave. 
The damage reduction worked. Venari now does less damage. Issue is, it's still more damage than 90% of frames can survive. It went from killing you on the first or second tick of the "attack" combo, to needing the third or fourth hit. It's still effectively a "one shot". You can't dodge it.

There is no windup to the attack. Going anywhere within a certain range of Venari can just result in instant death. Even screaming past one at the greatest of speeds you can reach will result in death.  Remember, this is a passive

Lets not forget that casting in team mode is a full heal in mere seconds. Not even Oberon can pull that off. A Passive beats the entire power of Renewal.

The active abilities of Venari - that being the disarm, and the "attack" mode move - should be limited to only when her 3 is used to mark someone. Be even better if the other person knew that Venari was moving in to kill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...