Hikou Vs Kunai

[Fury_Demon]

I'm getting ready to build my hikou when suddenly so many talk about kunai and how it better than hikou on high lvl mobs, etc.....

 

So I just wanna know which one will get me farther in universe of warframe and is good against multi different factions? I don't really have a preference for factions. Just which one will gimme more kills?

[AvatreDaemonSadi]

Despair > Kunai > Hikou

[PaperAlien]

Hikou has a tiny bit more DPS, but half the ammo efficiency.

[matrixEXO]

Hikou requires more throws to kill compared to the Kunai. Despair is an overall upgrade of the Kunai. The only reason why people say that the Kunai will get you further is because you deal more damage and thus it has better ammo conservation potential than the Hikou.

[Brimir]

Which is shame because

 

ninja throwing stars > ninja throwing knives

[Ninjamander]

Why people say the despair is better? I believe kunai have armor ignore and the despair do not..right?

[mcryseria]

Why people say the despair is better? I believe kunai have armor ignore and the despair do not..right?

despair has a higher base damage so in the long run it scales better with maxed out mods even without armor ignore.

[Brimir]

Plus, and this is just a personal preferance, Despair doesn't stagger on every hit like Kunai. I like stagger on melee weapons but on long range weapons I find it too annoying; it is hard to score multiple accurate hits when your enemy is constantly convulsing due to stagger!

[xFayt]

Just to throw in a few facts rather than opinions. Note that these are numbers taken from the Warframe Wikia, observations made through my own experience, along with information provided by other users.

 

Despair:

Base Damage: 55

Base Firing Rate: 3.3

Clip/Ammo: 10/210

Crit Chance: 2.5%

Crit Damage: 150%

Damage Type: Armor Piercing

 

Hikou:

Base Damage: 25

Base Firing Rate: 6.67

Clip/Ammo: 20/210

Crit Chance: 2.5%

Crit Damage: 150%

Damage Type: Serrated Blade

 

Kunai:

Base Damage: 45

Base Firing Rate: 3.3

Clip/Ammo: 10/210

Crit Chance: 2.5%

Crit Damage: 150%

Damage Type: Physics Impact

 

Observations:

Let's start with the two the OP wanted to talk about.  

 

Hikou

 

The Hikou is like the "SMG" of the group, where it relies not only on its damage, but also its speed to deal damage.  The damage type, Serrated Blade, is mainly focused on Infested, since it deals x3 to non-ancient infested (1.5 on crawlers) and ignores armor (will need confirmation of another person), making up for not dealing x3 damage on ancients.  It also has the highest fire rate of the three, which would make up for the lack of base damage.  On the downside, the limited base ammo reserve of pistols makes it so that you have to be wise about who to use it on, or how often you use it.  Along with its low base damage might give lacking mod scaling

 

Kunai

 

The Kunai i guess would be the "Rifle" of the group, where you'd try to kill the enemy with the least amount of ammo used, almost the opposite of the Hikou.  The damage type of the Kunai is physics impact, which is similar to Paris', meaning it'll "ignore armor."  More specifically, there are no enemies that can reduce the damage dealt with this type, and thus is called "armor ignore."  Along with that, the base damage is almost double the HIkou, but for balance sake, the fire rate is cut in half.

 

Despair

 

The Despair is like the half brother of the Kunai, with only about 2 differences: damage type, and base damage.  The damage type the Despair deals is Armor Piercing.  Armor Piercing, in short terms, is a damage type that will deal more damage if the enemy has more armor, making it very viable for Grineer missions.  The base damage is a solid 55, the highest of the three, making mod scaling that much sweeter.  On the down side, Armor Piercing portion of Despair is an addition to the based damage, meaning while Armor Piercing increases with higher armor, the base damage will fall off sooner or later to a point where the AP damage can no longer carry the weapon.

 

My opinion:

 

I use all three weapons for certain given missions.  If I were to go up against the infested, I might take the hikou over the others, but with the infested faction being pretty much all melee, i reply with melee almost always.  Kunai might be perfect for end game (due to high armor and high HP), but that doesn't mean Despair won't catch up.  If you look at, say high level Corpus, you'd pretty much deal better damage with Despair as it allows better mod scaling with its base damage which would end up dealing maybe 25-50% more damage compared to the Kunai.  On the other side, say high level Grineer, Kunais would benefit more since the "armor ignore" on it will allow the base damage to contribute along side any mods while the Despair's damage might fall off due to the armor.  So it's pretty much personal preference after all the facts.

 

Remeber, these are my opinions, you don't have to agree with them, just merely understand that it's just one person's own opinion

Edited August 14, 2013 by xFayt

[Argentus]

Despair is better than Kunai for everything but Infested. but its only dropped but Stalker so u cant get it at once.

Kunai it does tripple dmg to light infested and stuggers ancernts (allthough fully moded it should kill tham fast any way)

Hikou may have the worst ammo economy but thats not the rason not to use it. it fires very fast and staggers on hit making it viable for crowd controll as long as for damage. plus it ricochets from the walls, so u can do really ninja shots

[rangeless]

all three are useful....just personal preference.

 

i personally love the hikou....

 

now guys.....imagine a hikou with gunslinger and lethal torrent

 

yes...that's one reason the hikou can be fun to use.

[Fury_Demon]

Lots of you said Despair is better, and I understand that 'cuz it's the only awesome weapon from Stalker that I don't have yet. Got Hate and Dread in a few runs, but the RNG goddess just wouldn't give me what I really want.

 

Also, since I probably gonna use mid-range rifle like Braton or Gorgon, which of the 2 is good at long range.

[DGwar]

Lots of you said Despair is better, and I understand that 'cuz it's the only awesome weapon from Stalker that I don't have yet. Got Hate and Dread in a few runs, but the RNG goddess just wouldn't give me what I really want.

 

Also, since I probably gonna use mid-range rifle like Braton or Gorgon, which of the 2 is good at long range.

None really, they are a mid to close range weapon.

[Athros]

Let's see it from the damage type perspective first;

 

Hikou - Serrated Blade

Kunai - Physics Impact

Despair - Armor Piercing

 

FYI, all three of them were considered armor-ignoring damage type. The only fact that separates them is damage multipliers on some enemies and a few bonus here and there.

 

Hikou, with its Serrated Blade damage, might have the most advantage over other types, because it had no less-than-1x damage multiplier against anything. It has 3x damage against Light Infested, with 100% stagger on all enemies except Chargers and MOAs.

Kunai, with its Physics Impact damage, might have difficulty against some heavy Grineer like Commander and Seeker, which have 0.5x damage multiplier against them, but with a nice bonus of momentum impact that could kill the targets behind the first target, just like Boltor.

Despair, with its Armor Piercing damage, might get trouble against Light Infested, which have 0.5x damage multiplier against them. Sadly, there no added effect besides that.

 

All three of them inflict full base damage against any other things.

 

Now, if you put things like Fayt does, then:

 

Hikou = Stunlocking SMG with half damage but twice the RoF, and sadly half the ammo efficiency that great against anything, especially Light Infested.

Kunai = Impaling Bolt Rifle, with nice damage and bonus to fling your enemies' body to kill everything that's behind them, that not too effective against Grinneer Commander and a few other units.

Despair = High-calibre Rifle, with extra nice damage, but with no bonus effect attached and not too effective against Light Infested.

 

Seems like there are no downside of choosing one over another, right? (This is maybe what a nice sidegrade DE have always envisioned...)

Now it's up to all of you to choose what is the best for yourself. ; )

Edited August 15, 2013 by Athros

[smithf]

My fun gauge (as opposed to "usefulness)

Hikou > Despair > Kunai

[Bruce_Swain]

Armor piercing =/= Armor ignore

 

but anyway it will deal so much damage to grineer even super high level you don't really care about not having armor ignore

[honeybadger]

Despair

 

The Despair is like the half brother of the Kunai, with only about 2 differences: damage type, and base damage.  The damage type the Despair deals is Armor Piercing.  Armor Piercing, in short terms, is a damage type that will deal more damage if the enemy has more armor, making it very viable for Grineer missions.  The base damage is a solid 55, the highest of the three, making mod scaling that much sweeter.  On the down side, Armor Piercing portion of Despair is an addition to the based damage, meaning while Armor Piercing increases with higher armor, the base damage will fall off sooner or later to a point where the AP damage can no longer carry the weapon.

--snip--

On the other side, say high level Grineer, Kunais would benefit more since the "armor ignore" on it will allow the base damage to contribute along side any mods while the Despair's damage might fall off due to the armor. So it's pretty much personal preference after all the facts.

Your discussion on the Despair is not entirely accurate.

"is a damage type that will deal more damage if the enemy has more armor"

Is incorrect. Some enemies have weakness to this damage type and will take MORE damage from it. These enemies are correlated with those enemies that have armor, but one does not necessitate the other. In general, AP damage is only reduced on light infested AND does not have armor reduction applied to it, making it arguably the best damage type in the game.

To be clear, just because an enemy has higher armor, does NOT mean AP damage will deal more damage to it compared to an enemy with less armor.

"On the down side, Armor Piercing portion of Despair is an addition to the based damage, meaning while Armor Piercing increases with higher armor, the base damage will fall off sooner or later to a point where the AP damage can no longer carry the weapon."

This makes no sense. Despair's base damage type IS armor piercing. It doesnt have an "innate mod" applied to it that also gives it AP damage. Its like the Snipetron in this sense. Kunai deal physics impact damage, Despair deals AP damage. If anything, the Kunai will fall off sooner because its base damage is 10 lower, meaning the elementals will also be that much lower.

"say high level Grineer, Kunais would benefit more"

Incorrect. All (or most) Grineer take extra damage from AP sources and since I've already corrected you about AP and armor scaling, the Despair is inarguably better at dealing with Grineer than the Kunai is.

Overall, Despair is a straight upgrade from the Kunai EXCEPT in one case of light infested, but I hardly count that as a weakness, especially since elemental mods scale off the higher base damage of the Despair.

Edited August 15, 2013 by honeybadger

[Brimir]

^+1

 

Armour Piercing damage will only deal above 100% damage to Grineer units. It will, however, never deal under 100% to most other enemies (light infested being a noteable exception) in the game making it the best elemental damage type.

[MaxImpact]

I personally prefer the despair for all of the reasons above. I've found that most of the Stalker weapons are slightly better (at least, with my playstyle) than their Tenno counterparts (Dread > Paris, Hate > Reaper Prime, Despair > Kunai/Hikou). Plus, the Despair look way cooler.