[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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from this whole rework things we've needed and rest of it can go to the trash can:

 

  • A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores
  • Increased Saryn’s Armor from 175 to 225 (at rank 30)
  • Increased Saryn Prime’s Armor from 225 to 300 (at rank 30)
  • Saryn Audio rework!
  • Toxic Lash’s Toxin damage buff in Saryn’s revisit is now granted to ANY weapon in your Loadout (Primary, Secondary, and Melee)

TY UR WELCOME <3

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Seems like a good rework. Not the one I was expecting, but a welcome one to be sure.

I don't understand the "recasting Spores will detonate them". How does it work? I target an enemy and the spores on him blow up or any recast will detonate every spore around?

The increased damage to Miasma sounds odd, I thought the original plan of Saryn 2.0's Miasma was for it not clearing rooms with a single button. Miasma as it is right now doesn't feel like doing something beside spreading Spores, but it wasn't suppose to clear entire rooms too. Guess we will have to try it ourselves to judge it.

Beside these two notes, I don't have a problem with the rest of the changes, even the removal of energy recovery from Toxic Lash seems fine as it will be broken when players will start to run around with Ignises and gaining energy without even aiming...

At the end:
h21oh8icn7i01.png

 

Edited by FrostedMike

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So essentially I've been maining Saryn since the patch that she was released on. Consistantly gone back to her over and over when I repick up the game every time.

So when I saw this thread and the first parts, I was.. apprehensive honestly. Last time Saryn got her rework, she lost the 'synergy' with negative duration which allowed her to do more damage more quickly. 

So going in to this and seeing how DE have also continuously handle Ember, I was prepared to get ready for disappointment.

And Disappoint I am not. 

1. Spores

I really like these changes, but more as someone who usually solos content and pugs rather than play in a group. This is a huge buff for people who do that, but honestly is infact a nerf to those who like to play in a co-ordinated group and a nerf to most Corpus and Infested. Being able to spread Spores and stripping Armour of Grineer and Corrupted is a huge boon to people who can't/won't bring as much Corrosive Projection as possible and considering that Miasma, While it does Corrosive Damage did not infact inflict the Corrosive debuff to enemies. 

Being able to spread Corrosive is almost a better boon than spreading Viral at this current moment, but will be an absolute nerf to Saryn once (if ever) Armour gets reworked so that it's not so annoying to kill Grineer and Corrupted. Honestly though, at the current moment, I definitely prefer Corrosive to Viral since the damage reduction from Grineer, espcially in Elite Onslaught where for some reason almost no one brings Corrosive Projection apart from myself and usually one other person, means that it will be a lot easier to deal with now and doesn't leave me stuck on what to do. 

So basically:

Pro: It's a huge buff for those who don't have 4x Corrosive Projection on a team due to Solo or just Pubbing and other people think other auras are better. 
Con: It's a interesting nerf against Corpus but definitely a huge nerf to Infested and a disastrous nerf against anything with a full team of Corrosive Projection. Which in Pubs is almost always never going to happen and allows to perhaps actually solo Elite Onslaught. 

So the real thing to note here is it's either a buff or nerf depending on how you go about actually playing in a team. To be perfectly honest though, I'm personally fine with this change but I do feel others will have massive problems. By the way, the Augment change is really interesting since it's going to allow Saryn to allow any team member to shred through Armour super quickly depending on the weapon they have. It'll still probably never be used, but I thought it was neat.

I do have a big problem though and it's going to rear it's ugly head with Miasma also: Saryn's current passive and something you guys haven't actually mentioned. Currently with the way she works, she can pretty much keep an enemy Viral'd until the end of their life. Even if Spores does not stack on an enemy with spores already on them, you can reinflict the Spores on an enemy that has lost it's spores. Not only that, but with her passive this basically allowed Saryn to continuously keep all enemies she sees under the influence on Viral. With this being infinite duration, her passive doesn't help out as much here, which is fine. However this was the one skill that really utilized her passive. Yes, even if it was less than an extra second. The thing was that Spore could continuously inflict Viral once it was on. 

2. Molt

The damage being stored was a big thing that was needed. The extra speed bonus is a really nice touch and I like it a lot. 

3. Toxic Lash

Removing the energy per attack from Spore I personally am not so worried about. Afterall, I use Zenurik pretty much exclusively. However, I can see it being a huge problem for those who like to spam Spores and attack Spores from a Molt. I'm not exactly a fan of that play style though to be fair either. Personally, I don't mind it's removal and I think it might be better off for it due to the fact it seems Spores will basically spread infinitely at this point. I'm sure other people will argue to keep it and I'm not going to argue about removing/keeping this as I don't see a reason due to the fact I never really felt I needed a reason. I'm indifferent either way.

4. Miasma

So I'm going to say I actually really like this part of the change also. Changing Spores to Corrosive and changing Miasma to Viral is almost a perfect idea. That means Spores can allow us to strip as much armour as we want and Miasma is going to allow us to murderate any immediate threat near us. Since also Miasma is now going to actually proc Viral (unlike currently where it does NOT proc Corrosive) this seems like a really good idea. It also, theoretically, allows Saryn an actual reason now to use Miasma and that's where I actually need to make a point about her passive which I'll list below since it's actually kind of important. You may want to read about that part before continuing with this. 

I don't know though, I feel extra power was something Miasma didn't need or extra duration. If you went with this route, I'd have preferred amusingly less damage but far more range. Allow Saryn to inflict her Viral further since now her Viral isn't going to last nearly as long and her Miasma's range isn't one of the greatest to begin with. Power Range mods aren't going to be as needed on Saryn due to the fact her spread is now basically infinite thanks to Spore's infinite duration.

5. Passive

Is Saryn keeping her current passive and how long is Viral going to stay on an enemy for? Because from my current understanding (and I could be wrong) is that her Viral will be kept on for 10 seconds + the 25% which would mean an amazing extra 1.25 seconds. If we doubled the duration using mods, that's an even more astounding 2.5 seconds of Viral. Now, I know that enemies probably won't live long enough for that, but that really doesn't feel like much. With the sort of weapons people usually bring on Saryn also, you'll continously reapply the status effect over and over. I really think if this is the case, her passive should be bumped up to around 50% at the least instead of 25%. Again, may not seem like much but it should allow her to really take full use of Miasma. 

Conclusion

Ultimately: I don't think these are nerfs compared to many people, but that's due to difference of environment and playing. Maybe because I don't use an Attarax/Maiming Strike and that when I go to Elite Onslaught I can find myself having a hard time killing enemies with my Ignis Wraith Saryn due to the fact that an enemy can have a ton of armour and I'm the only one with Corrosive Projection. But I think the changes to Saryn are both a good and a bad thing, depending on the environment you play her in. They're pretty much a huge buff to Pubs and Solo but ultimately a nerf to Groups and against certain factions. (Though to be fair, you don't need that much help killing those factions. It's just the Armour that was always a problem.)

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Sounds like hydroid's corrosive barrage is being put into a nursing home. (That's okay he's a themeframe.)

Most of these additions feel ambitious and wild, but toxic lash buffing is what I'm here for.

Edited by Hydrophilic
Yes
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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

 

  • Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.

I'm kind of skeptical about this. One part of Saryn gameplay that's really enjoyable is overloading everything with spores, so you can target more than one group of enemies. Granted, I have not seen new spores in action, so I don't know how they compare overall. But maybe changing it to only detonating spores around your reticle to keep more than one "instance" of spores active would be more interesting, so that Saryn can deal with more than one group at a time? Again, I will have to see new spores in action before passing any kind of judgement.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt. Distancing the two abilities gave us the start we needed to give them their very own unique and self-sufficient design. Now they perform independently of one another, giving Saryn more options in combat.  Details are listed below! 

RIP Bere / Hydron Saryn Farming. Mag 4 ever I guess...

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As a Saryn main, I'm tentatively excited for the changes but I won't comment on them until I try them out myself. But my question for @[DE]Aidan will people who own Saryn/Prime receive some forma to redo builds like way back when the Tonkor and etc. was changed?

8XBq.gif

Please don't murder my baby

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2 hours ago, Tain_OSkoom said:

Not crazy about this one. Forcing yet another frame into zenurikville in order to maintain uptime on other abilities in the face of energy leech eximus units seems like a pretty miserable thing to do.

You might have already gotten that reply (don't know, haven't checked all 250 posts), but... she now has 300 armor. She is now, even more than before, great with Rage or Hunter Adrenaline.

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👀

This will be interesting.

Also...
2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Saryn Audio rework! 

“We are giving Saryn a “voice” when she casts (voiced by [DE]Danielle), which will add character and make her feel more connected to the abilities as you cast them.”

Yes please. @[DE]Danielle you're so awesome. 👌

Edited by MesaVandal

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2 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

When will the non-popular frames like Wukong and Titania for example, be looked at as well? They are in dire need of an overview more than Saryn to be honest. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad Saryn is getting changes, it’s just that certain frames need to need be looked at more than others.

Saryn Feedback:

  • Stat Increase
    • Good change to make her a bit more more survivable.
  • Spores
    • Sounds pretty good so far, hopefully it’s good in the game.
  • Molt
    • Reading the changes to Molt seem quite incredible, can’t wait to see how it is in-game.
  • Toxic Lash
    • Changing the ability to work for all weapons is a really great change.
  • Miasma
    • The damage buff to Miasma is an extremely good buff.
  • Audio Change
    • Won’t say no to new audio, can’t wait to hear the new sounds!

I’m not a Saryn main, nor have I used her, but overall, the new Saryn rework looks quite good, nothing really to complain here.

Titania is fine with exception of her skills costing to much and no butterfly regen. If you make her skills not cost so much and maybe a slightly larger BASE range she would be insane. She already murders things well into the 300 range ESPECIALLY with Razorwing Blitz added in. Her skills need to be reduced in energy cost though for sure. 

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May I ask, why was Saryn the chosen Warframe for a rework and not other Warframes that is paramount to be reworked? Is it simply because Saryn, at the present time, is a lot more prominent than the other Warframes, thus making it evident that it be better to cause a large if not all of the community to be nore content with her. Or is it due to certain recourse limitations that makes it impracticable to rework other Warframes that require a more complex change?

 

Edit: Also I actually want to thabk you for actually going the exstra mile to still make the game more balanced and bring us newer content, while still working on all the other stuff such as the new quest and open world map.

Edited by Ephime

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These changes look.....good
something feels weird..
i feel like ya guys gonna change them again and make them worse
please don't

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About Saryn's Molt augment,

Would it be such a bad idea to make it regenerative, rather than pulses of health? It'd really help Saryn dig into enemies and hold her ground if she was constantly topped off in health. I understand that she can be topped off with pulses, but imagine maybe level 80 enemies (which aren't hard to find or get to). They'll do a lot of just burst damage and wipe away what was recently pulsed in, y'know? While the armor increase is generous, armor is just not as effective as some think, and DR combined with health regen (similar to Oberon's healing factor) would be a bit more beneficial.

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Over the past month I have been playing Saryn almost non-stop. She originally was the reason I got into Warframe, as her Prime Trailer caught my attention and I've been hooked since. Suddenly I feel as if there is a great divide between players who know how to utilize all her abilities to their maximum potential, and if this is the cause of the incoming rework. That or they are just fixing every frame that can DPS Berehynia efficiently.

So I figured now is a good time to show my build that I think out damages most melee builds.
She is capable of one shotting most enemies and only runs into tough spots to armor, which Pox or Sharpened Claws can easily compensate. Her large health pool to gain energy quickly while taking damage and utilizing Condition Overload to have multiple status procs to gain insane damage. Here is her against 20x Corrupted Heavy Gunners at level 150

So how does this work? The build revolves around taking damage and dealing it tenfold.


Melee; My current Zaw has 85% Status chance with innate Viral modded for Gas means plenty of status on enemies to gain more and more damage with Condition Overload. Saryn makes this even better with her Toxic Lash which gives Toxin damage meaning 100% status of toxin each hit on top of melee status. Exodia Force is also used to great effect here as we will be having many different status effects on enemies to deal AOE 200% status blast 50% each status.

Warframe; Saryn is surprisingly tanky considering most people think she is a caster. With her Augment Regenerative Molt, we can gain health back from damage consistently and getting large health back from Smeeta Kavat damage with Hunter Recovery. Gaining damage is also easy with Hunter Adrenaline and we have large amount of energy with Primed Flow

Arcanes: Depending on how you build your Zaw or which weapon you use I find slow isn't always too bad. The crits are somewhat constant so Arcane Fury is a good choice for more damage but can easily be substituted for something more to preference. Currently using Arcane Fury and Arcane Strike.

Full build in Video link below;


Notes: As we are gaining almost limitless energy with Hunter Adrenaline Channeling can be used for 100% up time which means an extra 1.5x damage. Also worth noting is that each Toxin and Viral effect adds 100% damage to Miasma and I use it before the main event to shred armor and put an additional Corrosive proc to each enemy in range. 

Reason I am posting this is because Saryn does NOT need a full rework like she is getting. The armor helps and putting which status where is fine but I really hope this rework changes Saryn like they did Chroma. Link to said Rework page here; 

 

Please message me in game or post here with any questions or comments. Cheers.

Edited by Inspector
adding rework link
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5 minutes ago, Ephime said:

May I ask, why was Saryn the chosen Warframe for a rework and not other Warframes that is paramount to be reworked? Is it simply because Saryn, at the present time, is a lot more prominent than the other Warframes, thus making it evident that it be better to cause a large if not all of the community to be nore content with her. Or is it due to certain recourse limitations that makes it impracticable to rework other Warframes that require a more complex change?

Because she's meta for onslaught due to spores.

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2 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

keeep miasma corrosive, let it strip armor over time, PLEASE

Why? Spores is sounding like it will literally replace the need for CP if a Saryn is around and just mass armor strip the map while Miasma doing 100% viral procs. If anything it sounds OP as S#&amp;&#036;. 

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Few questions: 

 

1) Does miasma still do double damage when toxin and viral are on a target?

2) does toxin still spread with spores?

Also not really a fan on the energy change.  though if she keeps infinite duration and spores are spreading that often still it's not a big deal.  The only thing that semi hurts here imo is recasting miasma doesn't stun again.  It was nice to use as a stun semi often on my toxic lash build where my energy cost wasn't redic.  Overall pleseantly surprised.

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First of all, I am excited about these changes!! The stat increase helps greatly with Saryn's survivability and squad placement as a 'mage-fighter.' A few things I am concerned of what would happen though.

The current 'Max-range Spore Saryn' has the bonus of spreading a lot of spores over a large range but did have scaling problems against 'end-game' level armour. The current revision presents problems I can foresee. Enemy density will be a huge factor in how bad (or too good) this turns out to be. For example, Sanctuary onslaught would not require recasting at all through each wave but spreading spores may be a problem on some tilesets, notably the huge Corpus Ice defense tileset. Such missions might render Spores useless, while Hydron might solidify Saryn as meta for certain missions with high enemy density. I am also concerned as to whether Spores will still spread toxin procs as well, as it has been a problem in the past? Also, having the damage ticks/sec beign positively affected by duration would be hepful, but may be OP due to the nature of corrosive procs.

As for Molt, I am content at the moment with the changes, as long as the proc shedding and regenerative augment is not changed. One thing that I may be too hopeful for is the decoy to actually draw enemy attention more (have had the decoy completely ignored once).

Again, same for Toxic Lash, I am content with the changes for now, but I don't see the augment being used anytime soon, as we can put gas damage on weapons for the same effect. The removal of energy gain does not bother me, as there are other ways of gaining energy and Spores, which will be changed, was the main energy intensive ability. I do use Molt a lot for the augment, and does require a lot recasting on my part in sticky situations, leading to some energy problems. This is the only part of the kit I am concerned with over energy problems.

Miasma is a problematic ability. Parts of me agree with bringing back a more nuke-type skillset back for Miasma. But due to the damage type, I would actually prefer a more CC oriented ability. I would prefer to have a viral effect spread out over a large area, one of the pros of Spores before this revision, but a higher range would need a lower damage output. Because of this I also would like Spores to be able to carry Viral procs too, if Miasma will be the same as the revision. This revision of Miasma seems like a hybrid of pre-revision Spores and a nuke Miasma. I would prefer a more CC + proc oriented Miasma.

All in all, I am still looking forward to a revision of my favourite poisonous lady!!

 

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Rework seemms good all around. To me its perfect as described.

Also is that a hint that melee rework coming in next weeks mainline?

 

Not sure what the mainline itself will be. Is it just saryn rework and (maybe) melee too? Not sure if thats enough to call a mainline but either way I look forward to what next week brings.

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2 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

RIP my Saryn...but it actually seems pretty fun. I'm just not so sure about the Viral to Corrosive Change on her Spores though

Spores hit way more times than miasma so armor will basically not exist.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

*Developer note: We really want to emphasize that this is experimental. With Spores we’re trying a couple new things that we’ve never done before, so we’ve entered new territory that is both exciting and a little scary: Infinite Duration and Infinite Escalating Damage. Both of these have had interesting and fun results under normal test play and conditions, but we are still testing and looking for edge situations that might require us to go back to the drawing board.

  • Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
  • Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.
  • When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    
    • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   
  • Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.
  • A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores. 
  • Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Toxin) damage to all attacks.
  • Spores optimization! Under certain circumstances, Spores has been known to cause framerate issues in its current state. With the spreading nature of Spores in the rework, we’ve decreased the CPU burden which has made a noticeable change to the ability’s overall performance while active. There is still room for improvement but we’re fairly happy with the results so far! 

Is there a Cap to number of enemies a Spore can infect at the same time? What will be its spread range limit? Because honestly, im sickened of watching Saryns spending the entire missions spamming Spore on Molt and infecting a whole map wile also leeching from the damage their teammates deal to enemies.

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