Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0


[DE]Danielle
 Share

Recommended Posts

I was worried about DE touching Saryn. Usually "rework" translates to "death of this frame" most of the time. But overall, I'm actually impressed with what was shown on Prime Time. The main concern is changing Spores to viral, and I get what people are saying. While running Solo, you could just use viral on weapons and call it good while Spores is stripping armor. But Viral did help the whole team kill enemies faster due to the reduced health pool, except those that were covered in armor, which is why using a corrosive setup on weapons was beneficial to help with said armored units. But even then, this change from viral to corrosive for Saryn still benefits the team. As someone who enjoys endurance runs, I like what they are doing overall, but I understand the issue at the same time. Will Spores spread toxin dot when popped? Will Spores only be good for armor stripping and nothing else? If so, that weakens Saryn against most Corpus and Infested units. By all means, I get why it would benefit corrosive, because it needs time to ramp up and eat away the armor, unlike viral where all you need is one proc and call it a day. But I think that is the biggest concern here. If corrosive really is the way to go with spores, you guys at DE need to keep that infinite duration & infinite damage scaling, otherwise, Saryn wont last long in being relevant to the playerbase. This does sound good, especially for those who like to do endurance runs that go past sortie lvl (100). I'm just worried Pablo will decide to scrap the infinite duration and infinite damage scaling, and leave us with a useless ability that cant even do its job properly because it couldnt scale and fell off so quick, like Mag's armor stripping capabilities (not saying Polarize is usless, but its armor stripping cant scale). With Toxic Lash, I like it from what I read, but it sounds like it replaces the weapon's damage type to toxin only. Maybe I'm misinterpretating it though, hopefully. No complaints about Molt. Lastly Miasma, while the stun duration increase is nice, I feel it could be more, considering it depends on enemy animations in a way. Also, making it not able to stun the same enemies more than once is harsh. Finally, if this is gonna be viral based, does that mean spamming Miasma and burning through energy is gonna be how we spread viral through out the area to benefit the team? Hopefully not. Overall, its a great rework so far, but you understand if I'm still skeptical at the same time. Sorry for the long post. Just had to get this off my chest, in case you devs actually see this

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

RIP my Saryn...but it actually seems pretty fun. I'm just not so sure about the Viral to Corrosive Change on her Spores though

exactly, stripping armor is cool, but with corpus and infested this is mostly useless

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not entirely sure about this, especially the damage type change of Spores and Miasma, the change to toxic lash not giving back energy on spore affected enemies AND that they might touch the spreading on kill. The combination of a "cheap" ability to reduce the hp pool of enemies in COMBINATION with a team full of corrosive projections, which btw. needs planning and doesn't happen by accident, was extremely powerful. But this only worked in teams that planned ahead which in 90% of the gae doesn't happen. I like synergies between frames like that, something that won't work UNLESS you plan ahead. This would defintely make Saryn more appealing for random play but for organised groups? I'm not so sure.

The spreading functionality has to stay, its called SPORES for a reason.

Changing the damage type of Spores might actually result in people needing to spam miasma ... which would be far more energy consuming. With her change to toxic lash my preferred playstyle in keeping miasma as last resort and relying on Spores + toxic lash for damage and energy efficency is basically broken. I'm really not sure if this is a good thing or bad, I love my Saryn been playing her more and more over the last 4months since all the new TennoCon skins arrived, PLEASE don't #*!% her over!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so as a lot of people is saying, viral is good against all factions while corrosive not, her ulti wastes more energy and it would be not so useful as the actual saryn, the rest of the changes are good, but if you wanted to see people not spamming spores on molt just put a text saying viral doesn't stack, that's it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, crackspider said:

Go read the abilites section of saryn ingame now and from what it says there explain the synergy that the 4 moves have. Using only what information they provide ingame.

Not testing out abilities and how they function together is on the player. Games have never needed to and should never have to explain interlocking mechanics what works on what.
Even crazier is that we are in the 21st century where we have wiki's, massive knowledge bases, tons of videos detailing things, and somehow no one wants to use them.
Games, for a time up till recently, have spent too much time hand holding players in an environment where they shouldn't have to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Darkncoldead said:

exactly, stripping armor is cool, but with corpus and infested this is mostly useless

And viral only halves their health once, its the toxin spread that makes it so effective against corpus.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorru but what I read is a huge nerf DE. Either give her a cycling mechanism between corrosive toxin and viral damage types just like hystrix or don't even touch and swap em. Cuz we won't be able to recast spores multiple times and keep the disease spreading we should be able to have at least 3 different spore instances going on 3 different enemy groups or it is not good. What I see is that Saryn is just getting this nerf within the boundaries of ESO and rest of the regular gameplay is not even taken into consideration. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Not testing out abilities and how they function together is on the player. Games have never needed to and should never have to explain interlocking mechanics what works on what.
Even crazier is that we are in the 21st century where we have wiki's, massive knowledge bases, tons of videos detailing things, and somehow no one wants to use them.
Games, for a time up till recently, have spent too much time hand holding players in an environment where they shouldn't have to.

Sorry but if there is an unnoted down synergy it should be added not everyone is supposed to be looking up onto the wiki or youtube this game has a desk named codex and it can be filled with info 

DE is at this point being like oh we do not make tutorials cuz ppl come n go so we focus on our vets and then when a nerf arrives the reason is being addressed upon new players being unaware of the synergies they have introduced in the past I didn't know about it either but I learned by mistake that I was able to cast spores on my molt. Just testing it out and stuff is ofc up to the player but this doesn't mean that not every newbie or every vet goes to simulacrum and tests stuff. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

We're going to ignore the fact that toxin damage ignores shields.

The toxin damage is there most of times. But you would find that a lot of high lv corpus and exlimus enemies are immune to toxin proc. Some of them are immune to toxin damage. The ospreys can even give toxin dot immunity to the enemies it links.

Again, viral+a gas or toxin damage weapon is very effective against corpus. Not just viral proc, but also the spores carry the toxin dot.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I main Saryn and have played for years, so I am definitely interested in Saryn's 2.0

That said, I'm unwilling to be too excited about any of the ability changes yet because until I have time to play them I won't know if I will agree with you about the changes "feeling" better. I want to though! I love what I watched in the live stream today, and I have high hopes for a better "feel" with her ability synergy. 

I will definitely be all over the forums once I actually get to test the Sayrn 2.0 changes, and I will absolutely let you know what I think.

Finally, the only thing I can say with 100% certainty about these new changes is how amazing the new audio/visual effects are! It made my heart flutter with happiness seeing/hearing my beloved Saryn the way my mind always imagined 🖤💜💚

Edited by Fyrscha
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In general, I like the direction of the rework.  Here are my thoughts on the proposed changes:

 

  • Increased armor is always welcome, I think this is a positive change
  • Spore scaling automatically is good.  If you know how to spread toxin procs with spores, I don't think we'll see much change, but for players that either don't know how or don't have access to certain weapons to do so, this will make spore scaling more widely available.  I am concerned with the damage type being corrosive as the only choice.  I think it is good as the default as this will be a net gain in PUG groups where 4xCP is not usually seen.  However, I would welcome DE re-purposing the augment for this ability to change the damage type to viral; her current augment is virtually never used, and the flexibility to do viral instead of corrosive when you know you have armor stripping taken care of, or when you are going against another faction, would be nice to have the option.
  • Molt changes are good.  I would ask that the movement speed bonus be for parkour as well as sprint, since it is more common to bullet jump out of trouble than it is to just run.
  • Toxic lash changes are good.  I'll have to wait for numbers to make a final decision on how i feel about this (unless it's primary and secondary taking the current strength, and melee getting twice what it currently gets, which would be great).  It would be nice to exchange the blocking damage reduction for general damage reduction, since that aspect of the ability will remain highly underutilized.  
  • Miasma changes seem okay.  It would be nice if the area were repeatedly assaulted similar to Mag's Crush, where new mobs entering the area could get hit by ticks not just the initial cast.  

My only other thought at this time is that I would strongly ask DE to look into a storage / decay mechanic for spore damage.  There are many game modes where there is a pause in enemy waves (e.g., defense, interception, etc.) or transition to new rounds in ESO where you have to start ramping up all over again.  Additionally, even Pablo mentioned on stream that Saryn's design should not have her goals at odds with her team.  While clearly it would be overpowered for the spore current damage to permanently ramp, I fear the cases where a Saryn player gets frustrated because their team kills uninfected mobs which cause the current spores to die out and be forced to start over repeatedly.  

 

As a proposed middle ground, how about a mechanic where you do not lose the entirety of the stored spore damage when you get to 0 enemies affected (either because it ran its course, or was detonated manually).  Something with a decay function like losing 10% of the total value in the first second, then 9% in the second second, 8% in the third, and so on down to 1% in the 10th and beyond seconds.  In this case, the stored damage would decay by roughly half in about 8 seconds, then slowly lose the remaining half in another 47 seconds.  Players would have a strong incentive to not let the spores die out, but it wouldn't feel overly punitive if game mode mechanics or over-zealous team mates caused it to dissipate outside of your control.

Edited by Dolerhyde
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a huge Saryn fan. Only frame I use more often is Oberon. Right now, my Saryn normally ends up doing 3rd place mission damage but 1st place in kills. Those Spores are vicious. I almost never use Toxic Lash or Miasma. Between Regenerative Molt, Rage & Hunter's Adrenaline, and Rejuvenate, I have unlimited health and energy. My Torid and the Pox spread my disease so virulently even Ebola would blush.

Escalating damage on Spores with unlimited duration means I can finally fully invest in Fleeting Expertise. Corrosive on Spores means that I have less modding to do against armored Infested.

Yes. YES. YES!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Dolerhyde said:

In general, I like the direction of the rework.  Here are my thoughts on the proposed changes:

 

  • Increased armor is always welcome, I think this is a positive change
  • Spore scaling automatically is good.  If you know how to spread toxin procs with spores, I don't think we'll see much change, but for players that either don't know how or don't have access to certain weapons to do so, this will make spore scaling more widely available.  I am concerned with the damage type being corrosive as the only choice.  I think it is good as the default as this will be a net gain in PUG groups where 4xCP is not usually seen.  However, I would welcome DE re-purposing the augment for this ability to change the damage type to viral; her current augment is virtually never used, and the flexibility to do viral instead of corrosive when you know you have armor stripping taken care of, or when you are going against another faction, would be nice to have the option.
  • Molt changes are good.  I would ask that the movement speed bonus be for parkour as well as sprint, since it is more common to bullet jump out of trouble than it is to just run.
  • Toxic lash changes are good.  I'll have to wait for numbers to make a final decision on how i feel about this (unless it's primary and secondary taking the current strength, and melee getting twice what it currently gets, which would be great).  It would be nice to exchange the blocking damage reduction for general damage reduction, since that aspect of the ability will remain highly underutilized.  
  • Miasma changes seem okay.  It would be nice if the area were repeatedly assaulted similar to Mag's Crush, where new mobs entering the area could get hit by ticks not just the initial cast.  

My only other thought at this time is that I would strongly ask DE to look into a storage / decay mechanic for spore damage.  There are many game modes where there is a pause in enemy waves (e.g., defense, interception, etc.) or transition to new rounds in ESO where you have to start ramping up all over again.  Additionally, even Pablo mentioned on stream that Saryn's design should not have her goals at odds with her team.  While clearly it would be overpowered for the spore current damage to permanently ramp, I fear the cases where a Saryn player gets frustrated because their team kills uninfected mobs which cause the current spores to die out and be forced to start over repeatedly.  

 

As a proposed middle ground, how about a mechanic where you do not lose the entirety of the stored spore damage when you get to 0 enemies affected (either because it ran its course, or was detonated manually).  Something with a decay function like losing 10% of the total value in the first second, then 9% in the second second, 8% in the third, and so on down to 1% in the 10th and beyond seconds.  In this case, the stored damage would decay by roughly half in about 8 seconds, then slowly lose the remaining half in another 47 seconds.  Players would have a strong incentive to not let the spores die out, but it wouldn't feel overly punitive if game mode mechanics or over-zealous team mates caused it to dissipate outside of your control.

Sorry but I assume you don't get the point of this nerf. They removed the molt + spore combo cuz if an enemy dies beside your molt the last spore that holds the stacked damage number of your deadly spores would jump onto your molt as it is the closest surface to hold onto and you would keep the buff for forever. This is why it has been removed but you guys think it was because the spore turret. No why ppl use her 2nd is mainly because of regenerative molt augment. No one uses spores that way unless it's a defense. 

 

They don't want us to keep the endless damage cuz no molt combo neither they want it to last longer cuz corrosive keeps dealing damage unlike viral so spores don't remain on enemies for forever eventually there will be a time which your last spore pops on an enemy which is completely alone and you lose the damage number 

This is a nerf

Edited by Shidonia
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Saryn main myself, I'm intrigued by the possibilities in this rework. I do, however, have a few concerns.

 

Spores

I'm of mixed feelings on the damage change. While Corrosive really helps against enemies with armor, it doesn't hold much use against non-armor targets, of which nearly the entirety of two whole factions falls under. I like the duration and scaling. I'm really leery on recasts merely blowing up all my spores, since I'm typically recasting on groups of enemies buffered by unoccupied space outside any active infestation zones I've currently got running from earlier casts (if I'm having trouble aiming because there's numbers everywhere, I'm doing my job right!). HOWEVER if recasting detonated all spores with the current effects of popping a spore, while resetting the damage scaling to the minimal level, I'd be more amiable to that mechanic. I also want to see spores retain their ability to spread Toxic procs on afflicted enemies with similar mechanics to the current effect (or a more streamlined approach with similar function).

 

Molt

I like it. Truth be told, after I did some exploring on Spores and discovered I could make them far more effective without any reliance on Molt whatsoever, the only time I'd spore my Molt was to kill weak waves of defense quickly without having to target a specific enemy. Getting a boost to evade the fire you're dropping Molt for, while Molt absorbs damage to be more useful as the decoy bullet sponge-bomb it is, is fantastic.

 

Toxic Lash

I like this one too, but I'm concerned it could be abused with the right combinations of mods and weapon choice.

 

Miasma

This is the second one I'm most interested in seeing reworked. As I play right now, the only conditions I will ever use I Miasma is for a short stun to get out of a firefight going south, or to stun a crowd around a downed teammate for a safe revive. The higher damage and increased duration will help it behave like the AOE viral bomb it always seemed to thematically be (damage typing meshes well with the seeming intent as well), and if it maintains the doubling and doubling again for having specific procs running on affected targets, it'll only help it see more use.

 

A bit off topic with this thought with Miasma, but I was always a little disappointed that unlike it's name implies, it doesn't leave a lingering cloud of poison hanging around as area denial. I'd be interested if a future augment for Miasma would give it that sort of a secondary effect, maybe with a supplemental interaction with Spore-afflicted targets that venture into the cloud?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Changes I like:

Simpler Spores. Considering Warframe is mostly a casual game, current Spores is unnecessarily complicated. Making the power more simple means more people will be interested in using Saryn and less threads titled "How does Spore work?" will show up in Players Helping Players (maybe).

Molt scaling. Obviously necessary and also nice. I think a temporary armor buff would have been better then a speed boost but I think speed will be somewhat useful as well.

Ranged Toxic Lash. I may finally start to use it again.

Miasma buffs. Too early to know if the buffs are actually meaningful but anything is better then the current one.

 

Changes I have mixed feelings about:

No more synergy between weapon damage and Spore damage. I feel the synergy is interesting because it adds a bit of complexity to how you choose and build your Saryn weapons. It allows you to use one weapon for Spores and another weapon for a different task, such as killing highly armored enemies. I'm also worried the base damage increase on Spores might not match the damage veteran players are able to add with our maxed out weapons. On the other hand, the synergy also restricts your weapon selection and new players who are using Saryn for the first time are sometimes harmed because of this.

- Scaling damage on Spores IF you don't recast it. Obviously this means you'll never want to recast it. And that means every Saryn build will probably be even more focused on Power Range. To the point where I'm imagining people will be able to scale the damage so much on endless missions that it will become a problem. Another possibility is that people simply won't be able to maintain the scaling and will be constantly forced to start from zero. Constant resets in scaling would be incredibly frustrating and could potentially put Saryn into a situation where if you drop the scaling too much you won't be able to recover from it. So as much as I like the idea of Spores scaling I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

 

Changes I dislike:

- No more Viral procs on Spores. I think this is a bad idea because Viral is what allows Saryn to act as a debuffer. That gives you an option because even if you don't focus on damage Saryn can still help your team by reducing enemy health. With the changes Saryn will become yet another warframe that has to kill everything as quickly as possible in order to stay relevant. You're also exchanging a damage type that's focused on health for a damage type that is focused on armor. A lot more enemies have health then armor, so Viral is overall more useful then Corrosive.

- Can't cast Spores on Molt. I get it that people like to play the game without making an effort and that is not what the devs want. But some people use Molt as a starting point for Spores because sometimes your team is simply killing everything way too fast. You either cast it on Molt or you have to mash #1 and prey for a random eximus to not get oneshot so you can finally start doing your thing. Can't you just make it so that you can only cast Spores once on each Molt?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Zelgorath said:

I'm a huge Saryn fan. Only frame I use more often is Oberon. Right now, my Saryn normally ends up doing 3rd place mission damage but 1st place in kills. Those Spores are vicious. I almost never use Toxic Lash or Miasma. Between Regenerative Molt, Rage & Hunter's Adrenaline, and Rejuvenate, I have unlimited health and energy. My Torid and the Pox spread my disease so virulently even Ebola would blush.

Escalating damage on Spores with unlimited duration means I can finally fully invest in Fleeting Expertise. Corrosive on Spores means that I have less modding to do against armored Infested.

Yes. YES. YES!

corrosive on spores means that on corpus and infested it wont do that much

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I knew the developers didn't like front-loaded damage that kills low level enemies too easily over distances, and that's fine. However I would've appreciated the developers appeal to smarter players who liked the synergies and wanted more out of her potential melee-hybrid niche.

The melee buff is paltry, any frame that isn't Valkyr doesn't benefit from Steel Fiber compared to Guardian and Ultimatum arcanes.

The Spores change makes the ability more viable against armored enemies that are vulnerable to status like the common Grineer, but less effective against Corpus units. Spores is now neutral on Infested. Coordinated teams rely on Corrosive Projection or frames with wider removal options like Mag or Oberon, so Saryn might use the Corrosive procs on uncoordinated teams but she won't be useful on a focused team.

The Molt change doesn't address the deficiency Saryn had, which is scaling self-defense around herself. Stuns like Accelerant, Invisibility, or Damage Reduction are what people want. Front-loaded defense options like augmented armor such as Inaros' Scarabs or Rhino's Iron Skin are tolerable and fun for most content. Instead it got an evasion buff which doesn't enhance it much past the standard strategies of movement that any Warframe employs. Regenerative Molt ceases to function if the Molt dies prematurely, so this is an indirect fix to what should have already been fixed before: make the augment's duration not rely on whether Molt is still alive or not.

The Toxic Lash changes are a disappointment because I was anticipating the hopes of a Saryn melee hybrid with damage reduction. People like Warcry because of the attack speed, while the armor and enemy slow were happy little additional consequences. Since the armor boost applied to the sturdy Valkyr base armor, it was a comfortable way to melee. Volt's Speed is more comparable to Toxic Lash then and now, being a multi-tool that enhances guns and melee. It doesn't make melee or defense easier though, something attack speed and armor buffs tend to do.

The Contagion Cloud augment is still ineffective. Imagine if Atlas' summoned golems stood still, died within a few seconds, and only hit enemies who walked adjacently to the golem then stood there. That is the issue with stationary attack units--they rarely work because enemies won't walk into that tiny area then suddenly stay still there.

The Miasma changes are extremely disappointing, since the forced synergy made players opt for Spores instead of Miasma for general damage dealing. Miasma was useful for stuns, but now can't reliably stun effectively.

Her perception by players was a B grade frame that at best felt like a discount Nova, but felt like a B+ due to Spore damage. Nova still supports way better since her debuff on enemies works on health, armor, and shields along with 75% slow on most builds. Now Saryn is more like a B grade discount Mag, who strips armor and shields way quicker with instant damage nuke as well. Molt is still lame defensively. Toxic Lash didn't get the defensive buff we were hoping for and instead got generic toxin damage addition, which was what the Venom Dose augment gives to teammates anyway. Miasma was the minimal stun-tool Saryn had, but now she can't recast it as soon anymore.

TL;DR short of the above: the net result of the rework is a less destructive Saryn who is also less defensible against enemies. She can now remove armor. Players are still going to use Equinox, Mesa, Mag, and Ember for similar content. Saryn could have been an alternative melee frame like Atlas but that won't happen now. The fundamental issues with her augments still aren't addressed.

Edited by MechaKnight
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Shidonia said:

Sorry but I assume you don't get the point of this nerf. They removed the molt + spore combo cuz if an enemy dies beside your molt the last spore that holds the stacked damage number of your deadly spores would jump onto your molt as it is the closest surface to hold onto and you would keep the buff for forever. This is why it has been removed but you guys think it was because the spore turret. No why ppl use her 2nd is mainly because of regenerative molt augment. No one uses spores that way unless it's a defense. 

 

They don't want us to keep the endless damage cuz no molt combo neither they want it to last longer cuz corrosive keeps dealing damage unlike viral so spores don't remain on enemies for forever eventually there will be a time which your last spore pops on an enemy which is completely alone and you lose the damage number 

This is a nerf

Molt can't hold spores in this iteration of Saryn.  There would be no where to hold it besides nearby enemies.  I do understand that they want to get away from spores on molt, which I am completely behind.  I also think that their proposed solution is pretty elegant at being useful at all enemy levels without obliterating lower level enemies.  I was just making a suggestion to deal with a potential issue I see where Saryn is fighting against her group to spread spores at all costs, even if it means kiting enemies away from the group or rushing way ahead. Also, I would prefer to not see Saryn quickly fall off in certain mission types like endless relic runs with wave breaks.  

 

This is akin to Nidus wandering away from his group (and usually outside of affinity range) in order to stack his mutation.  It would great to avoid a similar situation where Saryn is most powerful away from the group where she can control the spore spreading without 'help' from teammates short circuiting the spreading. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

alright let's see what we have here....

  • Saryn is literally thematically Melee slanted and always has been. saying "non-Melee focused Warframe" means whoever wrote that doesn't/didn't know how to play Saryn. this is like Mag all over again, where the only people that understand the Warframe are the people that won't be listened to for anything.
    • so Toxic Lash being a Melee focused Ability makes sense.
    • under no circumstances should Toxic Lash apply the SAME bonus to Guns. if you do that you'll be totally regretting it. should Toxic Lash do something for your Guns? yes. but it should be something that Toxic Lash doesn't currently do for Melee Weapons.
  • Molt doesn't 'scale' because of the Ability only partially scaling from Mods in the first place.
    • also Bugs. btw Bugs will be a common note in here. because Saryn has more Bugs than an Anthill. but they were ignored for 2 years even though we were told that adjustments on those last adjustments would happen within reasonable time.
  • not being able to Cast Spores on Molt is kinda disappointing. if you don't want the static (objectively poor in effectiveness) usage to be as effective as the correct usage - well it already is - but if you want to further emphasize that, just have Spores work differently on Molt. like covering a shorter Range when detonated off of Molt.
    • Spores and Molt are already self sufficient anyways, this interaction was a bonus, not a requirement.
    • it also would mean a feature i've been hoping for wouldn't be possible - that being Damage Reduction in a way based on how many Spores are on Molt. my goal was each Spore gives Molt 5% Damage Reduction(that means up to 30% Damage Reduction), and a Spore will sacrifice itself to Molt to protect it against a single instance of incoming Damage. 
    • it sounds redundant but it makes sense once you pair it with that after a Spore breaks, another one cannot for 3-5 seconds after that. this also means that technically you can't reach the 30% and only ever 25%.
    • a complication for that is you would need some sort of slight Cooldown or something of the sort so that Players aren't just Casting Spores on Molt constantly to prevent incoming Damage from removing the protection.
    • to be clear by sacrifice i mean when the Spore is scuttled to protect the Molt, it negates the Damage entirely but is destroyed in the process.
  • i guess increasing Saryns' Armor even further will make up for the EHP nerf. though you could just give Saryn back her Health that she already had.

 

Spores:

  • so i guess the goal is for Spores to change from a Damage role to a Support role? Viral Damage is much stronger than Corrosive Damage in general for Saryn. i'd much prefer this to not happen. that would be a nerf for the most part.
  • uhh Spores already Spreads from Enemies that die from it? just at a shorter Range. do you mean that it now Spreads from the full Range, or...? because you're saying it like it doesn't Spread currently which is literally not how the Ability works.
  • canceling will deal 2X Damage of... what Damage? more Enemies hit is better okay, but you say that the Damage increases, but how does it? without knowing that i have no idea what this even means.
  • god please don't change Venom Dose. it makes more sense to be Toxin to contrast with the Fire/Ice/Elec Damage Augments. changing it to Corrosive would be a really bad move. you wouldn't be able to buff with Toxin and giving everything Corrosive to make Armor a joke kinda defeats the purpose of changing these Abilities to deal Corrosive Status...

 

Molt:

  • Molt making you faster for a short bit is thematically fine. sure, go ahead.
    • just as long as it's not too crazy. hopefully nothing higher than 15%, and also doesn't scale with Strength. i don't want to cast Molt and suddenly hit my head on the ceiling or the wall of the next room.
  • making Molt absorb Damage works as a bandaid, but it's pretty low on the ladder.
    • as aforementioned, the Ability doesn't even scale with Mods correctly. only the Health Scales with Strength, the Shields don't and neither does the Shield OR Health Regen. like really what in the actual f... it basically doesn't scale with Strength.
    • also aforementioned, being able to Cast Spores on Molt can allow for some good thematic features - my above noted Damage Resist and self sacrifice by putting Spores on Molt.
      way more interesting than just absorbing Damage for a few seconds (because like Snowglobe Players will just recast it every N Seconds so that it's indestructible - it's kindof a pretty bad mechanic overall)
    • on Molts' appearance, can those random black splotches be removed from it? they just look terrible when they were added in 2015. before that, the last visual update Molt got, looked absolutely beautiful. why did you decide that you should add random low quality black splotches to it? it only reduced the visual quality of the FX, it didn't make anything look better at all.
  • another option, or even something to use in tandem perhaps - as Molt takes Damage, it hardens temporarily. ideally should work by both the value of Damage as well as the number of hits. say each 50 Damage or hit hardens by 10% for 5 seconds, and can stack up to 5 times. non independent stack, so if it caps out it will last a full 5 seconds as 50% Damage Reduction. resets if the Timer expires.

Molt seriously needs to be able to receive Spores from Spreading too. Molt should be able to be a real Totem, able to be used to proliferate even more widespread DoT's via acting like a refracting Mirror for Spores.

 

Toxic Lash:

  • again, applying the same Bonus to Guns and Melee is a huge mistake. one is going to outperform the other and therefore the other one won't be used, ever.
    • they've got to give entirely different things so that you have a reason to use both, rather than just one. there's simply no other way. 
    • making the Damage buff for Melee stronger is also getting to be kinda nuts. it's already high on the list of Damage Bonuses, it's stronger than most of them as it is.
  • i'm not going to complain about more Duration, just like for Molt. sure, why not.
  • instead of removing the Energy generation entirely, could it be like atleast 50% Chance for 1E? that's still 1/4 of what it is now, so. because Spores being Cast less often really only changes one of the cheaper parts of Saryn. Molt and Miasma are still expensive in the long run with how often you need to Cast them.

 

  • this Ability could still so very much use another side to it that reinforces the Venomous snake side of Saryn. mostly by either dumping or weakening the Blocking Bonus a bit and introducing some sort of Snake Skin themed 'Armor' (not actually giving Armor Points necessarily). generic Damage Resist would work, but ideally something more mechanically interesting that can serve as a protection between Saryn and her Melee Weapon, and the Guns of that Enemy that won't stop firing but you still need to Kill the Enemy somehow.
    you can't Block and actually Kill Enemies at the same time, the Blocking Bonus is still very limited in use.
  • it could even feature a 'vengeful spirit' sort of thing, ala a spiritual snake that lashes out at close targets to prevent them getting to Saryn. that could be getting into different territory than Warframe is going for though.
  • since the other Abilities don't spread Toxin Status anymore, what's the point of Toxic Lash applying it? there's literally no synergy here anymore. just deleted.

 

Miasma:

  • Miasma being Viral is fine, i guess - but still the aforementioned stuff about Viral being stronger than Corrosive on Spores
  • increasing the Damage Miasma does doesn't really mean all that much really. it's still Mechanically bare.
  • increased Duration could do something useful, though.
  • double to Spores, does that mean further increase for having Toxin Status is or isn't still present?
  • Miasma not restunning Enemies if you recast is a gigantic nerf and shows a lack of playing Saryn. it's literally the only CC in the entire Warframe, and even as it stands it's barely acceptable at all.
    Saryn needs more functional (and mechanically adept) CC, not less. not to mention when Enemies are performing and action and will just ignore CC anyways. it's not like Enemies already do that to CC most of the time and animation state reliant CC has to be spammed to be applied reliably.
    not being able to recast Miasma just means less control over those Enemies that are in critical danger of Killing you. so what do you do then? just die, apparently. 

 

  • the Bonus Miasma gets from detonating Molt currently sucks for many reasons. 
    • it scales like garbage with Mods because double the Power Strength doesn't double the Effect. instead it does all sorts of stuff, whatever it feels like at the time.
    • it only accounts for how close to death Molt is, which is a terrible way to handle it. it absolutely without a doubt should be calculating based off of the TOTAL Damage Molt has taken during its existence.

this is a writeup for Miasma that hasn't been seen yet because i was still doing a writeup on the entire Warframe while i was at it.

Spoiler

Miasma

50E
90 Damage per second
lasts 6 seconds (including inital Tick)
15m Range

new Enemies that come within 5 Meters of an Enemy that is already affected by Miasma, will spread the remaining effect to the new enemy (remaining Duration/Damage).
Damage each Enemy takes is increased by 5% for each Enemy within 5 Meters of that Enemy. maximum of 75% bonus Damage.

Enemies affceted by Miasma are stunlocked for the entire base Duration, afterwards a 15% Chance per Tick to Stun. keeling over and coughing / Et Cetera Animation as usual.

retains current +100% Damage for Enemies under Toxin and/or Viral Status. but each type also increases Duration of Miasma by 50%.
each Tick will deal a Corrosive Status if an Enemy is under the effect of a Viral or Toxin Status - meaning up to 2 Corrosive Status per Tick. due to potential Duration, this might be better off as a binary of if they are debuffed by either making for up to 1 Corrosive Status per Tick.

any Enemy that dies to Miasma radiates a 50% Duration boost to any Enemy within 5 Meters that is already affected by Miasma (leaves a toxic pile of goop that allows the bonus to sit dormant for 5 seconds incase an Enemy affected by Miasma happens to walk by after the Enemy died). up to 4 stacks on a single Enemy(maximum of +200%, but still 4 stack limitation, regardless of the strength of them).
this Bonus does not radiate twice, an Enemy that dies to Miasma with the radiate bonus applied to them, will re-radiate half of the bonus they gained. so second Enemy gives +25%, third +12.5%, Et Cetera.


Molt present within Range of the intial Cast of Miasma can increase the strength of Miasma, based on the total Damage it takes during its existence. this is increased a second time if/when secondary Enemies that proliferate Miasma become affected by it, if Molt is within Range of those 5 Meter regions. this is increased another time in the same way if/when an Enemy dies to Miasma within Range of the instance of Miasma they took got affected by Molt.
ideally meaning, if Molt is within Miasma when Cast, it will increase the strength of it based on any and all Damage it has taken. if a new Enemy comes near an Enemy affected by Miasma and it spreads to it, if that is within the spread Range of Molt, it will attribute the same increase based on total Damage taken. an Enemy dying to Miasma, will also increase in strength if Molt i within the Spread Range of that, to any and all Enemies that are also within that Range.


base Damage affected by Power Strength
base Duraion affected by Power Duration
Range of Miasma, spreading and Radiation Range affected by Power Range.

 

note: this basically makes Miasma inexpensive enough to use that it's okay that it has such heavy interactions and doesn't like delete all of the Enemies at one button press - you can afford to use them all together.


so now past that - what about all of the Bugs or half completed features as Saryn stands? so many of those are why people don't understand how this or that Ability works, why this or that Ability breaks things in certain ways... all of these Bugs are mostly the source of the issue, with missing features making up the rest for the most part.
the problem is definitely not too many features and too many interactions.

heh, so many Bugs and Bug-like issues, i'm not sure i can even remember them all (probably not - and if someone that's actually dedicated to Saryn has trouble remembering all of the problems, what does that mean for Staff that have 1/50th or whatever other massive Ratio of my play time on Saryn?) but let's see what i can remember....

  • Spores currently transfers Toxin Status that is on the Host, but it only works correctly with very low or single instances of Toxin Status. trying to add up a bunch of small ones together doesn't work. but, a small number of Toxin Status will add up, sortof. they don't actually add up, but it does increase by some amount.
    • overall it's still really inconsistent and means that it heavily encourages Sniper Rifles, Meme Strike+Blood Rush and other massive hit Weapons to use this interaction, while making other sorts of Weapons that don't just generally oneshot the Enemies in the first place pretty weak on this interaction.
    • this really needs to work better for multiple instances of Toxin Status.
  • Spores  is supposed to use existing Toxin Status on Enemies as a source of the Damage Increase for the Spore bursts, but just like for the transfer of Toxin Status it doesn't work worth half a damn unless you're using Spike Damage Weapons because it doesn't work with numerous Toxin Status well or even at all depending on how many you're using.
  • you can't really build up Toxin Status on Enemies after they have Spores on them. this is really important because Enemies can only receive Spores every... 5 seconds or so, meaning if you screw up your interaction, you have to sit around and wait because you can't spread any new Spores with the correct (or best that you can create at the time, same diff) Damage Output until the Cooldown wears off.
    • this is especially bad because if you hit a Spore you actually can't apply Toxin Status to the Enemy before that Spore detonates.... and so your Damage is hot garbage because the Enemy didn't have the Toxin Status before you Cast Spores on it. and that added together with that numerous Toxin Status basically doesn't work on Saryn... Saryn doesn't really work until high Level Enemies because otherwise you Kill them before your Abilities get going.
      this is kinda stupid, honestly. with my usual Power Strength Saryn doesn't currently work correctly until ~Lv60 Armored Enemies. then they can survive long enough for me to start applying the powerful Damage.
    • Spores shouldn't be blocking you from applying Damage. but that's what they do - hitting the Spore blocks Damage.
    • it mostly affects Guns because you can aim them precisely while Melee has less aiming possibilities - and that Toxic Lash applies the Toxin before the Spores detonate (presumably because Status Effects are applied before your Damage is, with everything in the game - except Toxic Lash outside of Spores, that is - but more Bugs with Saryn? what else is new)
  • ever since Contagion was turned into Toxic Lash, it no longer applies to Thrown Melee Weapon. but why? it's still Melee.
  • Power Strength doesn't scale Molt detonating into Miasma correctly. instead it does... well you get weird results that don't make sense.
  • just like with basically every Ability and Enemy in the game, if they're performing an action when you Cast Miasma on them, they'll ignore it and not be CC'd.
  • Enemies that have received Spores from other Bursts cannot do so again for several seconds.
    • this also applies to the Toxin Status that the Spore Burst would apply.
  •  

i can't remember anything else currently but there's probably more Bugs.........

 

 

things from the Stream:

  • uhh, why doesn't Molt have a Timer over the Ability Icon anymore.....
  • carrying Toxin is a GOOD Synergy. it's something you do in Gameplay that produces another effect. it existing isn't bad, and bad functionality that makes spreading it painful and very 'wait around to be allowed to do it again' doesn't mean that there shouldn't be Synergy.
    • because a lot of Synergy seems to be getting removed, when having Synergy isn't bad. 'forced Synergy' is when you need to use that Synergy to get anything done. the solution is to make the Abilities have features to work with before you add Synergy, and then have the Synergy for more mechanical depth.
    • i don't want less mechanical depth in my Warframes, the mechanical depth is like half of the entire game...
    • just fix it - make the Toxin that is carried and added to the Burst actually tally up all of the Toxin that's on the Enemy so that it doesn't force you to use a tiny fraction of Equipment to use it in a timely manner.
  • again, the AFKFarming Loadout you're all talking about is extremely Level limited and only works if you have other Warframes to dump stuff on you and you're completely protected behind Terrain.
    • it's actually not very effective. it's really only effective because of that it covers a wide area and most Enemies in general have very little Health so Players can AFK because basically any Damage will mapwipe them.
    • the solution isn't to remove Synergy it's to.... make the problem less effective while reinforcing the objectively more effective part of it anyways (Casting Spores on Enemies after applying Toxin and spreading that. and Range is pretty much all of that.
  • the 'infinite' thing just isn't going to work. it sounds cool but you're just going to make 280% Range basically mandatory because Enemies will always be dying too fast to keep Spores active. in Onslaught it'll work better but even there sometimes Enemies just literally won't exist so it will end automatically.
    • unless you're saying the plan is to like, double the Spawn intensity of Enemies everywhere in the game, but that's not happening so yeah, just making maximum Range mandatory.
    • stick with the Toxin Status spreading, thanks.
  • sure, Performance is way better because of removing a lot of the calculations - but this is also gutting it mechanically. just removing functionality left and right. making it more automated. funny, isn't it. you don't want automation but you're removing ways for Players to actively engage with the Abilities.
  • you don't need to wipe Armor in a couple seconds for Corrosive Status to have a massive effect - casting Miasma once on an Enemy with 100% Corrosive Status would (with the new Duration and basic Mods) remove 90% of the Armor an Enemy has.... that's already outstanding.
    • Armor doesn't need to be removed entirely in 99% of cases (and often leaving a small bit of Armor is objectively superior to removing it all - not for Saryn but in general), removing almost all of it makes such a big difference already. sure, for Lv500 Enemies that 10% is still too much but i don't remember Warframes being created with Missions that long in mind.
  • just giving Miasma bigger numbers doesn't change that it's a bad Ability because it doesn't have any mechanics.
    • which isn't anyones' fault, it's just a really old Ability. but if nobody ever adds any mechanics to it.... no, Mechanics for increased Damage don't mean anything because the Health of Enemies wildly varies. it needs mechanics for DoT's, Duration, spreading... the stuff that is Saryns' theme.
  • 'no incentive to recast Miasma' well yeah, because you can't. so you don't need to recast it, because now you have no CC at all so you got to save your Energy and take it to your grave.
    • saving Energy doesn't matter if you're going to just be dead. you want to make Miasma not as Energy hungry? don't make it 100E. but nerfing the only CC Saryn has is just a joke.
  • i'm not going to buy "these Abilities had too many features and were too mechanically strong, so to make them better we decided to just delete most of the Warframe and undo most of everything that was done the last time".
  • i was worried that the new FX with voicing was going to be, well, voicing - but i'm fine with these new sound effects as long as they uh, aren't quite as loud as depicted in the Stream. they seemed louder than everything else in the game, by a significant margin. i don't need ear damage, thanks.

 

 

Spores&Miasma:

just a little note here for Viral/Corrosive and Energy - in another way this literally doesn't work. Corrosive Status is permanent, Viral is not. soooo you apply your 65,000 Corrosive Status after the Enemy has had their Armor stripped, but need to recast Miasma every time it wears off to make sure Viral sticks to them because having to protractor out just when the Enemy is weakened enough that they'll die in another second or two if you apply Viral is unreasonable - so now you have to cast Miasma, and cast it a lot. 

the cheap Ability keeps uselessly stacking a permanent Status Effect that has already capped out forever, and the expensive Ability applies a short duration Status Effect and you have to apply it again and again.
i guess using Saryn requires having Energize Equipped now. and having good Efficiency.

Edited by taiiat
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rework sounds great and all on paper but why would you remove the synergy between molt and spores?! Sure your making the molt itself more durable but who will actually use it? Your buffing an ability while making it essentially useless at the same time! I get you want to encourage people to use her other abilities but don’t destroy the parts of her that makes her good to begin with. Changing her spores viral damage to corrosive...? Why? Will that change be able to stack against higher level content? It kind of sounds like a nerf, especially if your getting rid of the synergy with molt. I fail to see the reasoning behind this change. DE please explain how this is an improvement? I don’t even understand why you are messing with her anyways? There are other frames who been long neglected and could use your attention! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All i want to know is how toxic lash will interact with spores will the Dot from spores spread when I mele the enemies that have spores on them with toxic lash activated will my toxin dmg spread with the spores I pop this time? 

 

the energy regen was helpfull in longer missions and by the looks of things you guys want her to do longer missions thats just an observation I may be wrong. If there is achance can there be synergy like that again with her if its possible.

Now this is all I think I really want to know

 

 

Start from HERE!

Spores and Miasma's elemental dmg were switched. Spores does corrosive dmg now but cant the corrosive dmg strip the BASE armour points of enemies that will make her effective against corpus, grineer and corrupted enemies

 

This will sunergies well with toxic lash since now Hopefully the toxin dmg will spread when you burst a spore with toxic lash activated the Dot will also spread.

 

Please does the toxin Dot spread when  spores are popped with toxic lais active?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...