[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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alright let's see what we have here....

  • Saryn is literally thematically Melee slanted and always has been. saying "non-Melee focused Warframe" means whoever wrote that doesn't/didn't know how to play Saryn. this is like Mag all over again, where the only people that understand the Warframe are the people that won't be listened to for anything.
    • so Toxic Lash being a Melee focused Ability makes sense.
    • under no circumstances should Toxic Lash apply the SAME bonus to Guns. if you do that you'll be totally regretting it. should Toxic Lash do something for your Guns? yes. but it should be something that Toxic Lash doesn't currently do for Melee Weapons.
  • Molt doesn't 'scale' because of the Ability only partially scaling from Mods in the first place.
    • also Bugs. btw Bugs will be a common note in here. because Saryn has more Bugs than an Anthill. but they were ignored for 2 years even though we were told that adjustments on those last adjustments would happen within reasonable time.
  • not being able to Cast Spores on Molt is kinda disappointing. if you don't want the static (objectively poor in effectiveness) usage to be as effective as the correct usage - well it already is - but if you want to further emphasize that, just have Spores work differently on Molt. like covering a shorter Range when detonated off of Molt.
    • Spores and Molt are already self sufficient anyways, this interaction was a bonus, not a requirement.
    • it also would mean a feature i've been hoping for wouldn't be possible - that being Damage Reduction in a way based on how many Spores are on Molt. my goal was each Spore gives Molt 5% Damage Reduction(that means up to 30% Damage Reduction), and a Spore will sacrifice itself to Molt to protect it against a single instance of incoming Damage. 
    • it sounds redundant but it makes sense once you pair it with that after a Spore breaks, another one cannot for 3-5 seconds after that. this also means that technically you can't reach the 30% and only ever 25%.
    • a complication for that is you would need some sort of slight Cooldown or something of the sort so that Players aren't just Casting Spores on Molt constantly to prevent incoming Damage from removing the protection.
    • to be clear by sacrifice i mean when the Spore is scuttled to protect the Molt, it negates the Damage entirely but is destroyed in the process.
  • i guess increasing Saryns' Armor even further will make up for the EHP nerf. though you could just give Saryn back her Health that she already had.

 

Spores:

  • so i guess the goal is for Spores to change from a Damage role to a Support role? Viral Damage is much stronger than Corrosive Damage in general for Saryn. i'd much prefer this to not happen. that would be a nerf for the most part.
  • uhh Spores already Spreads from Enemies that die from it? just at a shorter Range. do you mean that it now Spreads from the full Range, or...? because you're saying it like it doesn't Spread currently which is literally not how the Ability works.
  • canceling will deal 2X Damage of... what Damage? more Enemies hit is better okay, but you say that the Damage increases, but how does it? without knowing that i have no idea what this even means.
  • god please don't change Venom Dose. it makes more sense to be Toxin to contrast with the Fire/Ice/Elec Damage Augments. changing it to Corrosive would be a really bad move. you wouldn't be able to buff with Toxin and giving everything Corrosive to make Armor a joke kinda defeats the purpose of changing these Abilities to deal Corrosive Status...

 

Molt:

  • Molt making you faster for a short bit is thematically fine. sure, go ahead.
    • just as long as it's not too crazy. hopefully nothing higher than 15%, and also doesn't scale with Strength. i don't want to cast Molt and suddenly hit my head on the ceiling or the wall of the next room.
  • making Molt absorb Damage works as a bandaid, but it's pretty low on the ladder.
    • as aforementioned, the Ability doesn't even scale with Mods correctly. only the Health Scales with Strength, the Shields don't and neither does the Shield OR Health Regen. like really what in the actual f... it basically doesn't scale with Strength.
    • also aforementioned, being able to Cast Spores on Molt can allow for some good thematic features - my above noted Damage Resist and self sacrifice by putting Spores on Molt.
      way more interesting than just absorbing Damage for a few seconds (because like Snowglobe Players will just recast it every N Seconds so that it's indestructible - it's kindof a pretty bad mechanic overall)
    • on Molts' appearance, can those random black splotches be removed from it? they just look terrible when they were added in 2015. before that, the last visual update Molt got, looked absolutely beautiful. why did you decide that you should add random low quality black splotches to it? it only reduced the visual quality of the FX, it didn't make anything look better at all.
  • another option, or even something to use in tandem perhaps - as Molt takes Damage, it hardens temporarily. ideally should work by both the value of Damage as well as the number of hits. say each 50 Damage or hit hardens by 10% for 5 seconds, and can stack up to 5 times. non independent stack, so if it caps out it will last a full 5 seconds as 50% Damage Reduction. resets if the Timer expires.

Molt seriously needs to be able to receive Spores from Spreading too. Molt should be able to be a real Totem, able to be used to proliferate even more widespread DoT's via acting like a refracting Mirror for Spores.

 

Toxic Lash:

  • again, applying the same Bonus to Guns and Melee is a huge mistake. one is going to outperform the other and therefore the other one won't be used, ever.
    • they've got to give entirely different things so that you have a reason to use both, rather than just one. there's simply no other way. 
    • making the Damage buff for Melee stronger is also getting to be kinda nuts. it's already high on the list of Damage Bonuses, it's stronger than most of them as it is.
  • i'm not going to complain about more Duration, just like for Molt. sure, why not.
  • instead of removing the Energy generation entirely, could it be like atleast 50% Chance for 1E? that's still 1/4 of what it is now, so. because Spores being Cast less often really only changes one of the cheaper parts of Saryn. Molt and Miasma are still expensive in the long run with how often you need to Cast them.

 

  • this Ability could still so very much use another side to it that reinforces the Venomous snake side of Saryn. mostly by either dumping or weakening the Blocking Bonus a bit and introducing some sort of Snake Skin themed 'Armor' (not actually giving Armor Points necessarily). generic Damage Resist would work, but ideally something more mechanically interesting that can serve as a protection between Saryn and her Melee Weapon, and the Guns of that Enemy that won't stop firing but you still need to Kill the Enemy somehow.
    you can't Block and actually Kill Enemies at the same time, the Blocking Bonus is still very limited in use.
  • it could even feature a 'vengeful spirit' sort of thing, ala a spiritual snake that lashes out at close targets to prevent them getting to Saryn. that could be getting into different territory than Warframe is going for though.
  • since the other Abilities don't spread Toxin Status anymore, what's the point of Toxic Lash applying it? there's literally no synergy here anymore. just deleted.

 

Miasma:

  • Miasma being Viral is fine, i guess - but still the aforementioned stuff about Viral being stronger than Corrosive on Spores
  • increasing the Damage Miasma does doesn't really mean all that much really. it's still Mechanically bare.
  • increased Duration could do something useful, though.
  • double to Spores, does that mean further increase for having Toxin Status is or isn't still present?
  • Miasma not restunning Enemies if you recast is a gigantic nerf and shows a lack of playing Saryn. it's literally the only CC in the entire Warframe, and even as it stands it's barely acceptable at all.
    Saryn needs more functional (and mechanically adept) CC, not less. not to mention when Enemies are performing and action and will just ignore CC anyways. it's not like Enemies already do that to CC most of the time and animation state reliant CC has to be spammed to be applied reliably.
    not being able to recast Miasma just means less control over those Enemies that are in critical danger of Killing you. so what do you do then? just die, apparently. 

 

  • the Bonus Miasma gets from detonating Molt currently sucks for many reasons. 
    • it scales like garbage with Mods because double the Power Strength doesn't double the Effect. instead it does all sorts of stuff, whatever it feels like at the time.
    • it only accounts for how close to death Molt is, which is a terrible way to handle it. it absolutely without a doubt should be calculating based off of the TOTAL Damage Molt has taken during its existence.

this is a writeup for Miasma that hasn't been seen yet because i was still doing a writeup on the entire Warframe while i was at it.

Spoiler

Miasma

50E
90 Damage per second
lasts 6 seconds (including inital Tick)
15m Range

new Enemies that come within 5 Meters of an Enemy that is already affected by Miasma, will spread the remaining effect to the new enemy (remaining Duration/Damage).
Damage each Enemy takes is increased by 5% for each Enemy within 5 Meters of that Enemy. maximum of 75% bonus Damage.

Enemies affceted by Miasma are stunlocked for the entire base Duration, afterwards a 15% Chance per Tick to Stun. keeling over and coughing / Et Cetera Animation as usual.

retains current +100% Damage for Enemies under Toxin and/or Viral Status. but each type also increases Duration of Miasma by 50%.
each Tick will deal a Corrosive Status if an Enemy is under the effect of a Viral or Toxin Status - meaning up to 2 Corrosive Status per Tick. due to potential Duration, this might be better off as a binary of if they are debuffed by either making for up to 1 Corrosive Status per Tick.

any Enemy that dies to Miasma radiates a 50% Duration boost to any Enemy within 5 Meters that is already affected by Miasma (leaves a toxic pile of goop that allows the bonus to sit dormant for 5 seconds incase an Enemy affected by Miasma happens to walk by after the Enemy died). up to 4 stacks on a single Enemy(maximum of +200%, but still 4 stack limitation, regardless of the strength of them).
this Bonus does not radiate twice, an Enemy that dies to Miasma with the radiate bonus applied to them, will re-radiate half of the bonus they gained. so second Enemy gives +25%, third +12.5%, Et Cetera.


Molt present within Range of the intial Cast of Miasma can increase the strength of Miasma, based on the total Damage it takes during its existence. this is increased a second time if/when secondary Enemies that proliferate Miasma become affected by it, if Molt is within Range of those 5 Meter regions. this is increased another time in the same way if/when an Enemy dies to Miasma within Range of the instance of Miasma they took got affected by Molt.
ideally meaning, if Molt is within Miasma when Cast, it will increase the strength of it based on any and all Damage it has taken. if a new Enemy comes near an Enemy affected by Miasma and it spreads to it, if that is within the spread Range of Molt, it will attribute the same increase based on total Damage taken. an Enemy dying to Miasma, will also increase in strength if Molt i within the Spread Range of that, to any and all Enemies that are also within that Range.


base Damage affected by Power Strength
base Duraion affected by Power Duration
Range of Miasma, spreading and Radiation Range affected by Power Range.

 

note: this basically makes Miasma inexpensive enough to use that it's okay that it has such heavy interactions and doesn't like delete all of the Enemies at one button press - you can afford to use them all together.


so now past that - what about all of the Bugs or half completed features as Saryn stands? so many of those are why people don't understand how this or that Ability works, why this or that Ability breaks things in certain ways... all of these Bugs are mostly the source of the issue, with missing features making up the rest for the most part.
the problem is definitely not too many features and too many interactions.

heh, so many Bugs and Bug-like issues, i'm not sure i can even remember them all (probably not - and if someone that's actually dedicated to Saryn has trouble remembering all of the problems, what does that mean for Staff that have 1/50th or whatever other massive Ratio of my play time on Saryn?) but let's see what i can remember....

  • Spores currently transfers Toxin Status that is on the Host, but it only works correctly with very low or single instances of Toxin Status. trying to add up a bunch of small ones together doesn't work. but, a small number of Toxin Status will add up, sortof. they don't actually add up, but it does increase by some amount.
    • overall it's still really inconsistent and means that it heavily encourages Sniper Rifles, Meme Strike+Blood Rush and other massive hit Weapons to use this interaction, while making other sorts of Weapons that don't just generally oneshot the Enemies in the first place pretty weak on this interaction.
    • this really needs to work better for multiple instances of Toxin Status.
  • Spores  is supposed to use existing Toxin Status on Enemies as a source of the Damage Increase for the Spore bursts, but just like for the transfer of Toxin Status it doesn't work worth half a damn unless you're using Spike Damage Weapons because it doesn't work with numerous Toxin Status well or even at all depending on how many you're using.
  • you can't really build up Toxin Status on Enemies after they have Spores on them. this is really important because Enemies can only receive Spores every... 5 seconds or so, meaning if you screw up your interaction, you have to sit around and wait because you can't spread any new Spores with the correct (or best that you can create at the time, same diff) Damage Output until the Cooldown wears off.
    • this is especially bad because if you hit a Spore you actually can't apply Toxin Status to the Enemy before that Spore detonates.... and so your Damage is hot garbage because the Enemy didn't have the Toxin Status before you Cast Spores on it. and that added together with that numerous Toxin Status basically doesn't work on Saryn... Saryn doesn't really work until high Level Enemies because otherwise you Kill them before your Abilities get going.
      this is kinda stupid, honestly. with my usual Power Strength Saryn doesn't currently work correctly until ~Lv60 Armored Enemies. then they can survive long enough for me to start applying the powerful Damage.
    • Spores shouldn't be blocking you from applying Damage. but that's what they do - hitting the Spore blocks Damage.
    • it mostly affects Guns because you can aim them precisely while Melee has less aiming possibilities - and that Toxic Lash applies the Toxin before the Spores detonate (presumably because Status Effects are applied before your Damage is, with everything in the game - except Toxic Lash outside of Spores, that is - but more Bugs with Saryn? what else is new)
  • ever since Contagion was turned into Toxic Lash, it no longer applies to Thrown Melee Weapon. but why? it's still Melee.
  • Power Strength doesn't scale Molt detonating into Miasma correctly. instead it does... well you get weird results that don't make sense.
  • just like with basically every Ability and Enemy in the game, if they're performing an action when you Cast Miasma on them, they'll ignore it and not be CC'd.
  • Enemies that have received Spores from other Bursts cannot do so again for several seconds.
    • this also applies to the Toxin Status that the Spore Burst would apply.
  •  

i can't remember anything else currently but there's probably more Bugs.........

 

 

things from the Stream:

  • uhh, why doesn't Molt have a Timer over the Ability Icon anymore.....
  • carrying Toxin is a GOOD Synergy. it's something you do in Gameplay that produces another effect. it existing isn't bad, and bad functionality that makes spreading it painful and very 'wait around to be allowed to do it again' doesn't mean that there shouldn't be Synergy.
    • because a lot of Synergy seems to be getting removed, when having Synergy isn't bad. 'forced Synergy' is when you need to use that Synergy to get anything done. the solution is to make the Abilities have features to work with before you add Synergy, and then have the Synergy for more mechanical depth.
    • i don't want less mechanical depth in my Warframes, the mechanical depth is like half of the entire game...
    • just fix it - make the Toxin that is carried and added to the Burst actually tally up all of the Toxin that's on the Enemy so that it doesn't force you to use a tiny fraction of Equipment to use it in a timely manner.
  • again, the AFKFarming Loadout you're all talking about is extremely Level limited and only works if you have other Warframes to dump stuff on you and you're completely protected behind Terrain.
    • it's actually not very effective. it's really only effective because of that it covers a wide area and most Enemies in general have very little Health so Players can AFK because basically any Damage will mapwipe them.
    • the solution isn't to remove Synergy it's to.... make the problem less effective while reinforcing the objectively more effective part of it anyways (Casting Spores on Enemies after applying Toxin and spreading that. and Range is pretty much all of that.
  • the 'infinite' thing just isn't going to work. it sounds cool but you're just going to make 280% Range basically mandatory because Enemies will always be dying too fast to keep Spores active. in Onslaught it'll work better but even there sometimes Enemies just literally won't exist so it will end automatically.
    • unless you're saying the plan is to like, double the Spawn intensity of Enemies everywhere in the game, but that's not happening so yeah, just making maximum Range mandatory.
    • stick with the Toxin Status spreading, thanks.
  • sure, Performance is way better because of removing a lot of the calculations - but this is also gutting it mechanically. just removing functionality left and right. making it more automated. funny, isn't it. you don't want automation but you're removing ways for Players to actively engage with the Abilities.
  • you don't need to wipe Armor in a couple seconds for Corrosive Status to have a massive effect - casting Miasma once on an Enemy with 100% Corrosive Status would (with the new Duration and basic Mods) remove 90% of the Armor an Enemy has.... that's already outstanding.
    • Armor doesn't need to be removed entirely in 99% of cases (and often leaving a small bit of Armor is objectively superior to removing it all - not for Saryn but in general), removing almost all of it makes such a big difference already. sure, for Lv500 Enemies that 10% is still too much but i don't remember Warframes being created with Missions that long in mind.
  • just giving Miasma bigger numbers doesn't change that it's a bad Ability because it doesn't have any mechanics.
    • which isn't anyones' fault, it's just a really old Ability. but if nobody ever adds any mechanics to it.... no, Mechanics for increased Damage don't mean anything because the Health of Enemies wildly varies. it needs mechanics for DoT's, Duration, spreading... the stuff that is Saryns' theme.
  • 'no incentive to recast Miasma' well yeah, because you can't. so you don't need to recast it, because now you have no CC at all so you got to save your Energy and take it to your grave.
    • saving Energy doesn't matter if you're going to just be dead. you want to make Miasma not as Energy hungry? don't make it 100E. but nerfing the only CC Saryn has is just a joke.
  • i'm not going to buy "these Abilities had too many features and were too mechanically strong, so to make them better we decided to just delete most of the Warframe and undo most of everything that was done the last time".
  • i was worried that the new FX with voicing was going to be, well, voicing - but i'm fine with these new sound effects as long as they uh, aren't quite as loud as depicted in the Stream. they seemed louder than everything else in the game, by a significant margin. i don't need ear damage, thanks.

 

 

Spores&Miasma:

just a little note here for Viral/Corrosive and Energy - in another way this literally doesn't work. Corrosive Status is permanent, Viral is not. soooo you apply your 65,000 Corrosive Status after the Enemy has had their Armor stripped, but need to recast Miasma every time it wears off to make sure Viral sticks to them because having to protractor out just when the Enemy is weakened enough that they'll die in another second or two if you apply Viral is unreasonable - so now you have to cast Miasma, and cast it a lot. 

the cheap Ability keeps uselessly stacking a permanent Status Effect that has already capped out forever, and the expensive Ability applies a short duration Status Effect and you have to apply it again and again.
i guess using Saryn requires having Energize Equipped now. and having good Efficiency.

Edited by taiiat
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The rework sounds great and all on paper but why would you remove the synergy between molt and spores?! Sure your making the molt itself more durable but who will actually use it? Your buffing an ability while making it essentially useless at the same time! I get you want to encourage people to use her other abilities but don’t destroy the parts of her that makes her good to begin with. Changing her spores viral damage to corrosive...? Why? Will that change be able to stack against higher level content? It kind of sounds like a nerf, especially if your getting rid of the synergy with molt. I fail to see the reasoning behind this change. DE please explain how this is an improvement? I don’t even understand why you are messing with her anyways? There are other frames who been long neglected and could use your attention! 

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All i want to know is how toxic lash will interact with spores will the Dot from spores spread when I mele the enemies that have spores on them with toxic lash activated will my toxin dmg spread with the spores I pop this time? 

 

the energy regen was helpfull in longer missions and by the looks of things you guys want her to do longer missions thats just an observation I may be wrong. If there is achance can there be synergy like that again with her if its possible.

Now this is all I think I really want to know

 

 

Start from HERE!

Spores and Miasma's elemental dmg were switched. Spores does corrosive dmg now but cant the corrosive dmg strip the BASE armour points of enemies that will make her effective against corpus, grineer and corrupted enemies

 

This will sunergies well with toxic lash since now Hopefully the toxin dmg will spread when you burst a spore with toxic lash activated the Dot will also spread.

 

Please does the toxin Dot spread when  spores are popped with toxic lais active?

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In a way I have already played like she is intended to with these changes. 

The elemental swap of spores and miasma sounds really sweet and I have always wanted the damage of spores to ramp up instead of stacking just a huge load of small instances. Also felt like performance prevented spores from reaching it actual potential.

Toxic lashes changes are a really nice addition and miasmas damage buff is always welcome.

Not too sure if molt changes do a lot for her, but the quick speed buff sounds nice, but for the rest I would actually need to try it out.

Overall I agree with others that other warframes are more in a dire need of a rework, but I got to admit these changes sounds really sweet and I gotta say

It's a suprise, but a welcome one 😉

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How about Her passive?

Still the same?

And does Status Duration increase number of TICKS? [Gas, Heat]

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43 minutes ago, Shidonia said:

Sorry but I assume you don't get the point of this nerf. They removed the molt + spore combo cuz if an enemy dies beside your molt the last spore that holds the stacked damage number of your deadly spores would jump onto your molt as it is the closest surface to hold onto and you would keep the buff for forever. This is why it has been removed but you guys think it was because the spore turret. No why ppl use her 2nd is mainly because of regenerative molt augment. No one uses spores that way unless it's a defense. 

 

They don't want us to keep the endless damage cuz no molt combo neither they want it to last longer cuz corrosive keeps dealing damage unlike viral so spores don't remain on enemies for forever eventually there will be a time which your last spore pops on an enemy which is completely alone and you lose the damage number 

This is a nerf

Its is both surprising and depressing that you think this is a nerf.

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Does Saryn really need this sort of attention? It just sounds like you are buffing her last 2 abilities at the cost of her first 2. What exactly does this accomplish?! 

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As someone who has spent more time on Saryn than any other frames:

Spores:
My main concern for this change is mainly from changing of the viral proc to corrosive. While it may all more efficient killing of enemy grineer type units, it does not affect most corpus and infested units at all. While viral simply affects everything by halving their hp. It can also be argued that this is a straight nerf for spores against both of those fractions, unless you plan on adding armor for more of the infested and corpus unit in the future.

Molt:
It is good to see molt get a buff where it will not be insta gibbed when fighting against 'mid level' enemies, also the speed boost is also nice. With the removal of the 'spore turret' though, is it really necessary for a full removal, and not just put in a CD, say 30 sec, before spores can be recasted onto it?

Toxic lash:
Since it is for the full arsenal now, it might see more use, especially against augmented shield sortie. I am not sure about the removal of energy regen for spore popping with melee weapons though.

Miasma:
I personally would have liked miasma to have kept corrosive, but also ticked to remove enemy armor instead of the viral tick. Than again, compared to the other three skills, I only ever use miasma for giggles mainly due to costing a lot of energy, being relatively short ranged compared to spores and not removing armor, pretty much an underwhelming ability. Even the changes where we are forced to use it to get viral procs doesn't make it much better. It might be better if miasma also has a 2nd effect, that leaves a cloud of toxin or so surrounding the frame and follows where the frame moves, where any enemies caught inside are damaged and has their armor corroded away.

Overall, I fell there are some good changes that will allow more game play and build variation, but on the other hand I feel some of these things might gimp Saryn. Again my biggest concern is mainly due spore status change from viral to corrosive and some of the wordings that makes it sound like a nerf, hence I am cautiously optimistic for a new way to play Saryn.

I would also like to say that you do not have to make Saryn more 'user friendly' for newer players, it was the complexity and the synergy along with the potential it held which drawn me to the frame in the first place when I first started the game last year, even now she is still my go to for most content.

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As a two years old Saryn main, here is my reaction-----wtf is these?

Spores:

1. Damage type to corrosive is not welcome. It's good against grinner but completely useless against anything else. Not mentioning the removed potential that viral proc has when combining with slash or toxin. Also, we don't even need that much of armor stripping. In team play, you have corrosive projection or another frame that has armor strip ability. In solo, you can utilize viral with slash proc, or use weapons that can deal with broken scaling armor such as Torid or Zenistar.

2. Keep the way how spore spread as it was! According to prime time, it seems like we cannot cast several spores on different enemies. This would make spread the spores become a lot harder and unreliable. In the past, we can deal with different groups of enemies, but now I have to not to kill the spored enemies in order to maintain the scaling and spread. In conclusion, this would limit the build to nothing but large range, and limit the playstyle to camping only. Do you really think this is fun and match Saryn's theme of virus spreading queen?

3. The infinite scaling damage-----Bare with me, once enemy density is not as high as Sanctuary Onslaught, this scaling damage would be useless given the fact that you will kill all the affected enemies and have to put in a new spore. It's only useful in endurance camping. I personally don't care about this since as long as the spore can carry toxin dot, the scaling won't match a teammate with Ivara+gas zenistar.

Molt:

1. If you want to ban the 2-1111111 mindless spamming, simply put in a time limit-----You can't cast spore on molt in X seconds after the first cast on it.

2. The rest changes are fine but not really needed.

3. Given the fact that you want people to build Saryn more for range and strength, efficiency becomes a problem. But it's the constant recast of Regenerative Molt that gives Saryn great survivability against lv100 enemies by melee. Overall changes to her kit would actually hurt her survivability since modding is limited.

Toxin Lash:

1. THE 2 ENERGY RESTORE IS NEEDED! But limit it to melee attack. Saryn is a few frame who can go through energy reduction sortie with no energy issues. Also, remove this would make her no longer able to use channeling melee all the time. By the way, you just want all players to go for Zenurik right?

2. Change it affect all weapons would make spreading toxin dot easier, which leading to more elemental choices you can have on weapons. This is good, but not 100% needed. In the past, AOE weapons can easily detonate the spores. And simply build the weapon for a reliable Toxin or Gas proc can solve the problem.

Miasma:

1. Damage type change to viral is not welcome! Believe me, it will simply make Saryn a 4 spammer again in high lv mission in order to provide viral proc to support the team. Also, this is in contrast to you idea of building her around strength and range.

2. I personally use Miasma as an emergency CC mostly, then kill the enemies by melee. The increased damage and possibly---the stun---is welcome tho.

 

To be honest, I'm even started to think that it's just because Pablo cannot solve certain problems that last Saryn rework has, so he decide to just change everything to not so good.

Mr Pablo, you did a great job on the past Saryn rework, please try not to ruin it by yourself. Her overall mechnic is good enough and after 2 years I'm still having fun from actively playing her.

Again, If you want to ban the 2-1111111 mindless spamming, simply put in a time limit-----You can't cast spore on molt in X seconds after the first cast on it.

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Molt health should scale based on enemy's level. Also allow it to aggro more than the defense's objective cryopod or any other crucial targets to protect.

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personnaly as a saryn fan i cant wait to try this rework out.

spore: infinite duration and scaling dmg seem like an awesome change not to mention that popping spores will spread and scale it even more. its gonna be interesting to make sure to try and not drop it when possible.

molt: yes, yes, yesyesyes. movement speed and increased molt  tankness so it wont die in half a second on high level stuff.

toxic lash: ill be honest i didnt use it much but if its an all weapon buff then im not against.

miasma: never used since the last rework and im not sure if i will now either, maybe as a finisher, good rework to it too.

spore + molt: personally i dont care if its gone, i never used this method as it was not as good/fun as casting spore on ennemies and using gas weapons.

 

overall im very happy with the listed changes( assuming they dont change then that would depend ) from what im seeing depending on how the spores scale we might not need super high power strenght anymore and mostly focus on range/efficiency with a side of duration for toxic lash and molt which would def be welcomed considering the current 35 energy per spore and 65 per molt i have to spend right now.

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11 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies

I thought it already did that, just at a reduced range compared to popping spores "manually".

Also, I understand and appreciate the viral/corrosive flip between Spores and Miasma, but I've always wondered why none of Saryn's abilities did Gas damage. Her name seems to be based on a deadly, poisonous gas, right? Anyway, I guess I'm not sure where it would fit: Spores hits a lot, so corrosive is best there; Miasma is kind of "the big hit", so viral (as I understand it to work) fits best there; forced gas procs on melee and ranged hits with Toxic Lash could be very good (depending on scaling), perhaps even too good; maybe Molt does gas damage/procs when it explodes? Does Molt still explode? That doesn't seem to be covered in the OP.

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Feels so good man ❤️ I'm in love with the changes already

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8 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Its is both surprising and depressing that you think this is a nerf.

I've watched the pre-show, have posted a video clip of it for all to see here. If need to understand the basics of Viral v.s. Corruption status, check out the Warframe Wiki, then you won't even have to watch the clip, in order to know that this is a nerf. Just in case you're too lazy or reluctant to rereading the Wiki, 25% of current armor is removed per affliction of corrosive, which needs no refresh obviously. Viral status afflictions need to be refreshed but temporarily cut the enemies total health by half. Already, we can see that within the same time frame of 1 second/ one tick, that a Viral proc is more effective overall. 

Watch the clip I posted earlier to see that no matter what the enemy level is, even 9999, 25% of CURRENT armor will be reduced per tick of Saryn's Spore. This is highly ineffective at armor stripping in comparison to all the alternatives already in game. Making Saryn a redundant 4th skill nuke spammer, probably seems cool though, right? 😆

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Plz give rhino an armor buff. Its sad how many other lighter frames equal him or out do him on armor. 

Otherwise, this rework looks awesome! Cant wait for console to get her change!

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I’m getting the impression these type of changes are more for DE then the actual Warframe community. DE is “apprehensive” to the spores synergy with molt?! So like who cares?! It is the people in the Warframe community who actually play the game. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)a1-w23e_r4 said:

I’m getting the impression these type of changes are more for DE then the actual Warframe community. DE is “apprehensive” to the spores synergy with molt?! So like who cares?! It is the people in the Warframe community who actually play the game. 

I love the changes. I hated the forced synergy. Yes shes incredibly op as is... But now she will be more fun as well.

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Il y a 11 heures, [DE]Danielle a dit :

Hello fellow Saryn enthusiasts (and all potential to-be-enthusiasts)! 

It is with great excitement I come to you today with this Dev Workshop covering Saryn’s 2018 rework. The first section of this Workshop will cover the intent of these changes, while the second will provide a more detailed look into the ability changes themselves. 

Please keep in mind that everything you read in this Dev Workshop is subject to change from the posting time right up to the day/time it launches and beyond.  

We also understand that providing feedback on something you haven’t had a chance to play or experiment with can prove to be a bit difficult. We do appreciate and welcome constructive feedback and suggestions with the information provided below! However, if you’d like to see Saryn’s changes in action, we will be livestreaming a special Prime Time pre-show with Rebecca, Pablo, and more this Thursday, May 10th at 6:30 p.m. ET! 

Missed the Prime Time pre-show? Check it out here: 

Known best as the queen of Viral and Toxin damage, Saryn has comfortably sat in her role as a damage caster and nucleus for infectious spread latching and leeching onto those who cross her path. When approaching her rework, we wanted to maintain this status while also increasing the level of fun and variety of play.  

Back in late 2015, we launched the first “Saryn Revisited” in Update 17.10, where she received an ability overhaul focused primarily on ability synergy. Off the heels of a bulk of Warframe changes released earlier this year, we felt it was time we address Saryn’s current state. 

The following bullet points are cornerstones to her 2.0 form, and list what we intend to tackle from over 2 years worth of observations since her first revision:

Tackling Perplexing Synergies - Perplexing indeed. We feel Saryn's synergy as it stands follows a more forced than natural flow. We often found players confused as to why some things worked as they did, which lead to a guessing game of “bug or feature”. 

A new player having just acquired Saryn might not be fully aware of Spores’ interaction between Molt, Toxic Lash, and Miasma… and as an added layer, the interactions of those abilities with one another. Essentially, with Saryn you are given all the ingredients to mix up a cocktail, without really knowing if the ingredients are meant to mix in the first place.  

In 2.0, we aim to take the guessing out of the “what does what with what to make X happen?” and ultimately make her more sensible and intuitive to play. 

Tackling Underused Abilities - There is definitely something very satisfying about seeing damage numbers confetti off in the distance, as your Spores chew through enemies or chunk through health with Miasma. But what of Toxic Lash and Molt? We read your feedback and agree that they don’t meet the standards of her other abilities. A Melee-only ability on a non-Melee focused Warframe felt misplaced, and a decoy that doesn’t scale simply can’t hold up against high-level enemies. 

So we took a closer look to see how they could play a bigger part overall. What came of this is Toxic Lash working on ALL weapons, with an added bonus for Melee. While Molt saw improved scaling and an added speed escape bonus on cast. Full details on the changes are listed in the “Ability Changes” section!   

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt. Distancing the two abilities gave us the start we needed to give them their very own unique and self-sufficient design. Now they perform independently of one another, giving Saryn more options in combat.  Details are listed below! 

ABILITY CHANGES

Now for the nitty gritty! The following details Saryn’s abilities in their 2.0 revisited form. 

General Changes

  • Increased Saryn’s Armor from 175 to 225 (at rank 30)
  • Increased Saryn Prime’s Armor from 225 to 300 (at rank 30) 

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

*Developer note: We really want to emphasize that this is experimental. With Spores we’re trying a couple new things that we’ve never done before, so we’ve entered new territory that is both exciting and a little scary: Infinite Duration and Infinite Escalating Damage. Both of these have had interesting and fun results under normal test play and conditions, but we are still testing and looking for edge situations that might require us to go back to the drawing board.

  • Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
  • Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.
  • When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    
    • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   
  • Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.
  • A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores. 
  • Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Toxin) damage to all attacks.
  • Spores optimization! Under certain circumstances, Spores has been known to cause framerate issues in its current state. With the spreading nature of Spores in the rework, we’ve decreased the CPU burden which has made a noticeable change to the ability’s overall performance while active. There is still room for improvement but we’re fairly happy with the results so far!  

Molt

Molt has classically been a great tool of deception and distraction, especially when in a bind and in need a quick escape to reposition. We wanted to retain this utility but improve on it so that it offered more reliable and robust cover options.   

  • After casting, Saryn receives a movementary speed boost for a short duration.     
  • Molt will now scale similar to Rhino’s Iron Skin - All the initial damage it takes in the first few seconds will make it stronger. Any damage it receives after that point will target the absorbed health (Damage absorbed will show in a buff indicator in the UI). Once it reaches 0, Molt explodes dealing Toxin damage to nearby enemies. 
  • Improved FX changes to make her Molt cast more pronounced. 
  • Her Regenerative Molt Augment remains the same! “Saryn regenerates health over a span of time after casting Molt.”

Toxic Lash

You’ve told us that having Toxic Lash limited to Melee was too restrictive and was simply not compatible with a broader variety of playstyles. So we’re sharing its Toxin with the lot of your Arsenal! Toxic Lash’s Toxin damage buff in Saryn’s revisit is now granted to ANY weapon in your Loadout (Primary, Secondary, and Melee). In maintaining its roots, the damage buff on Melee weapons is doubled. 

  • With Toxic Lash active, your weapons will trigger Toxin Status Effect on any damage instance. 
  • Increased the duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds. 
  • We’ve maintained Toxic Lash’s ability to spread Spores to nearby enemies by dealing damage while  active. 
  • With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.   
  • Contagion Cloud Augment change: Kills with Toxic Lash will leave behind a Toxin cloud. As an added bonus, Melee kills double the damage dealt by the cloud. 

Miasma

We’ve taken what’s great about Miasma, and made it even better in the scope of Saryn’s 2.0 changes! 

  • Changed Miasma’s damage type from Corrosive to Viral. 
    • *We've swapped Miasma and Spores damage types with one another since Spores in its 2.0 form allows for more than 1 proc per second.
  • Miasma has a 100% guaranteed Viral Status Effect on damage tick. 
  • Increased damage from 350 to 500. 
  • Increased duration from 3 to 5 seconds. 
  • Miasma inflicts double damage on targets affected by Spores. 
  • When recasting on the same enemy it will refresh the tick duration and maintain the Viral Status Effect, but will not stun enemies a second time.

Saryn Audio rework! 

As an added bonus, Saryn is also coming with a whole new set of sounds! This is what Jeff Hartling, Sound Designer, had to say about the changes to Saryn’s audio: 

“We are giving Saryn a “voice” when she casts (voiced by [DE]Danielle), which will add character and make her feel more connected to the abilities as you cast them. We really amped up the “poison” aspect of her sounds so that she feels more deadly in combat. In addition, we’ve remastered all of her sounds to have increased clarity and focus.” 

You can expect Saryn Revisted 2.0 to launch on PC in a near future update! 

PS. We're still looking at the rest of your Arsenal! 

 

 

I main saryn and I like some changes but I'm un sure if I will like that you switched spores and miasmas element.
But other then that I'm pleased with the changes :)

 

 

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DE please tell me why you think reworking Saryn is so damn important? How is it more important than let’s say focusing on pushing out newer content? How many more frames do you plan on ruining on your quest to nerf everything you personally feel isn’t adequate?! I just want to know ahead of time so I can decide whether or not I drop the game entirely. 

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12 minutes ago, Morthal said:

I've watched the pre-show, have posted a video clip of it for all to see here. If need to understand the basics of Viral v.s. Corruption status, check out the Warframe Wiki, then you won't even have to watch the clip, in order to know that this is a nerf. Just in case you're too lazy or reluctant to rereading the Wiki, 25% of current armor is removed per affliction of corrosive, which needs no refresh obviously. Viral status afflictions need to be refreshed but temporarily cut the enemies total health by half. Already, we can see that within the same time frame of 1 second/ one tick, that a Viral proc is more effective overall. 

Watch the clip I posted earlier to see that no matter what the enemy level is, even 9999, 25% of CURRENT armor will be reduced per tick of Saryn's Spore. This is highly ineffective at armor stripping in comparison to all the alternatives already in game. Making Saryn a redundant 4th skill nuke spammer, probably seems cool though, right? 😆

While I certainly take your point that there are cases where viral is better than corrosive (my post in this thread said as much), it seems as though you are discounting PUG groups where armor stripping isn't a given.  Keep in mind that at 200% power strength, you are proccing corrosive 3 times per second per mob.  On top of this, you only need one viral proc to halve enemy health, which can be provided more easily by your weapons compared to 20-30 corrosive procs per enemy.  

 

That being said, I agree that Saryn's team utility contribution will go down in organized play where you will have 4xCP or 3 and Coaction Drift. That's why I suggested re-purposing her 1 augment to change the damage type to viral for times when yo are playing in a group with armor stripping, or going against low level enemies / non-Grineer factions.

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1 hour ago, Amazerath said:

Changes I like:

Simpler Spores. Considering Warframe is mostly a casual game, current Spores is unnecessarily complicated. Making the power more simple means more people will be interested in using Saryn and less threads titled "How does Spore work?" will show up in Players Helping Players (maybe).

Molt scaling. Obviously necessary and also nice. I think a temporary armor buff would have been better then a speed boost but I think speed will be somewhat useful as well.

Ranged Toxic Lash. I may finally start to use it again.

Miasma buffs. Too early to know if the buffs are actually meaningful but anything is better then the current one.

 

Changes I have mixed feelings about:

No more synergy between weapon damage and Spore damage. I feel the synergy is interesting because it adds a bit of complexity to how you choose and build your Saryn weapons. It allows you to use one weapon for Spores and another weapon for a different task, such as killing highly armored enemies. I'm also worried the base damage increase on Spores might not match the damage veteran players are able to add with our maxed out weapons. On the other hand, the synergy also restricts your weapon selection and new players who are using Saryn for the first time are sometimes harmed because of this.

- Scaling damage on Spores IF you don't recast it. Obviously this means you'll never want to recast it. And that means every Saryn build will probably be even more focused on Power Range. To the point where I'm imagining people will be able to scale the damage so much on endless missions that it will become a problem. Another possibility is that people simply won't be able to maintain the scaling and will be constantly forced to start from zero. Constant resets in scaling would be incredibly frustrating and could potentially put Saryn into a situation where if you drop the scaling too much you won't be able to recover from it. So as much as I like the idea of Spores scaling I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

 

Changes I dislike:

- No more Viral procs on Spores. I think this is a bad idea because Viral is what allows Saryn to act as a debuffer. That gives you an option because even if you don't focus on damage Saryn can still help your team by reducing enemy health. With the changes Saryn will become yet another warframe that has to kill everything as quickly as possible in order to stay relevant. You're also exchanging a damage type that's focused on health for a damage type that is focused on armor. A lot more enemies have health then armor, so Viral is overall more useful then Corrosive.

- Can't cast Spores on Molt. I get it that people like to play the game without making an effort and that is not what the devs want. But some people use Molt as a starting point for Spores because sometimes your team is simply killing everything way too fast. You either cast it on Molt or you have to mash #1 and prey for a random eximus to not get oneshot so you can finally start doing your thing. Can't you just make it so that you can only cast Spores once on each Molt?

I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY SARYN WAS USED NOT AS DAMAGE BUYT AS A DEBUFFER WITHT HE VIRAL THE ASPECT OF HER BEING USED AS A CORROSIVE DAMAGE SI A NERF TO HER DAMAGE. Due to this change i dont see me playing her ever again cuz her late game potential will be complete S#&$ she was doing damage half healthing the enemies not dealing damage per say showing on the stats but the fact that u wont be doing the half health from a distance will be making it worse for the melee warframes runnign around to kill S#&$ and now she is no longer a true debuffer and poisonious warframe she was meant to be.  Yes u are switching the miasma to do viral over corrosive but this wont help her for late game cuz she will be forced to use her 4 ability first over her 1 ability and that will literally be causing her to allow her to be surrounded by enemies for her to properly be that poisonious person she was always meant to be.  Personally after playing her for as long and short since for 2 weeks been playing her only nonstop i understand her play style.  This is definently a buff to early game type stuff such as solo survival but late game with comps/ groups it will make her rendered useless and wont be revelant for late game.

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hace 4 minutos, (PS4)a1-w23e_r4 dijo:

I’m getting the impression these type of changes are more for DE then the actual Warframe community. DE is “apprehensive” to the spores synergy with molt?! So like who cares?! It is the people in the Warframe community who actually play the game. 

This, i think DE saw the potential of saryn on onslaught and want to make a sort of "balance", so you cant clean the map more easy with an 4 CP group and spore+maiming or a long range guandao/orthos prime. I didnt saw anyone complaining or asking for buffs on forum.

Let see whats going to happen, but a thing i cant stand its the sound effects they added to her, just not my taste.

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So this all about goddamn onslaught then?! They come out with a new mode at the cost of nerfing an already good frame? And when you think DE mindset could get anymore ridiculous. I kind of wish then onslaught was never a thing. It is almost like DE can’t release new content without nerfing something. Way to be competent DE! 👍

Edited by (PS4)a1-w23e_r4
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Hot Take:

Let the new Spores be like Ivara special arrows or Vauban mines. Let her 1 button cycle between "fire and forget" spores, "time bomb" spores, and "debuff" spores. That would like solve 90% of the general complaints about these new changes, on top of letting me feel more like the poison queen since I can literally choose the enemy's poison.

*tongue pop*

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