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Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0


[DE]Danielle
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2 hours ago, -Virtuoso- said:

i mean if its hard for you to run and gun then its kinda like a personal problem ya know!

Not really.. I mean I ran 145 range back before so running and spreading wasn't a problem. Only places this can be viable is at ons, and floods/longer endless runs. If the density of mobs aren't in your favorite thin skin has nothing to do with it obviously. If its too difficult to see that spores needs some work, then Idk what to tell you.

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1 hour ago, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

if something is reworked it does not mean that is good by default. and as usual something are always bugged in this game. so new play style may be broken by bugs and can be bad. old saryn (spores) was so much batter. and atm this is main problem and xp about it is different from player to player. so yeah it does not suit anyone if it is broken ability.

by your logic it doesnt make it bad by default either. its broken how exactly? oh ok so you cant abuse the spore like before its bad and broken? Sorry about the bad news buddy but this is how its supposed to be, to actually move around and be active rather than being a static defense objective.

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26 minutes ago, Jebbers said:

Not really.. I mean I ran 145 range back before so running and spreading wasn't a problem. Only places this can be viable is at ons, and floods/longer endless runs. If the density of mobs aren't in your favorite thin skin has nothing to do with it obviously. If its too difficult to see that spores needs some work, then Idk what to tell you.

I mean before rework i used 265% range saryn and my build hasnt changed even a bit after rework, still spreading, still dealing decent amount of damage and its scaling damage just like previous saryn (unlike previous tho where it would scale with enemy level now it just ramps up overtime, slight mechanics change). if its too difficult for you to understand that DE doesnt want people to stand there and spam spore then idk what to tell you either!

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33 minutes ago, -Virtuoso- said:

by your logic it doesnt make it bad by default either. its broken how exactly? oh ok so you cant abuse the spore like before its bad and broken? Sorry about the bad news buddy but this is how its supposed to be, to actually move around and be active rather than being a static defense objective.

it is broken range is fc*** up ability still freeze after 2 hot fix, if no near enemy no spread. spores need more rng of spread. tryed diferent type of missions  and if there  are no croud in cluster you not gonna have spores, and still they did not spread if your team mate kill them and they are just around corner. it need batter spread. only good show was EOS other missions nope. only real issue of rework. i do like to get in and kill but if they fix spread of it which is so broken than it would be good. but as it is atm it si broken. room with around 10 enemy casted spores, and got just 1 infected  with no spread. thing was my team mate kill others fast and those left was behind wall like 3m from me and guess what, 0 spores on him. yeah so broken and bad. again spread it self need to improve, no logic if enemy behind wall is protected and like 5-10m from you. that make range useless. 

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge
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let's say that if u want hit a good ammount of enemy u need 230% range , with max range (280) u have like 40m spread , atm i'm testing this build

and don't really have any problem , well the "big" problem is keep the spore alive , pratically now saryn only need range no more need massive strength like the old one , this build kill pretty fast also on the elite mode

20180517225417_1.jpg

 

it would be nice to have the chance to recast more spores , but that will be ultra op

Edited by LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R
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31 minutes ago, -Virtuoso- said:

I mean before rework i used 265% range saryn and my build hasnt changed even a bit after rework, still spreading, still dealing decent amount of damage and its scaling damage just like previous saryn (unlike previous tho where it would scale with enemy level now it just ramps up overtime, slight mechanics change). if its too difficult for you to understand that DE doesnt want people to stand there and spam spore then idk what to tell you either!

Issue is spread. i did use 280% rng as focus farm, and run some missions test with 250% rng, unisex build so far. and i did get problems with spread. only real issue is spread it self. i can try their way of doing things and may like it but this need fix. it still have problems, random by player. had to die sometime in order to use it again, bugged, freezed  unable to spread and detonate and enemy behind wall like 5m from you did not infect. again good spread was in EOS duo cluster of enemy, other type of missions did not have clusters of enemy in relative small places. and yeah spread was issue. there was enemy but not so near for spores to spread and we talk about 5-10 from you and like 1 or 2 enemy behind wall which was not infected. b4 i could infect them with no molt-spores spam with 145 rng. now i do encounter issues in same situation with 250% rng. in any case spread and thus infect is issue with rewok. and if DE want you force into specific play style they must  in take into consideration that may not be good or ppl would/not like it. in short they will force their will and you will either learn to 'swim in system' or you can tell them to *** them self and delete game. and in that case no point of forums, talk to other player and players it self excange xp and opinions. again spread of spores it self in specific situation is issue and is broken and bad and need fix. 

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge
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WTF SERVER IS THAT AGAIN? my downloads yesterday and today is about 35 kb/s with picks at 130kb/s ..and the file is about 4GB... after restarted it and already had 2,5 GB ..It started from the beginning again (4GB to download) .. WTF WTF WTF ...

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8 minutes ago, LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R said:

let's say that if u want hit a good ammount of enemy u need 230% range , with max range (280) u have like 40m spread , atm i'm testing this build

and don't really have any problem , well the "big" problem is keep the spore alive , pratically now saryn only need range no more need massive strength like the old one , this build kill pretty fast also on the elite mode

20180517225417_1.jpg

 

it would be nice to have the chance to recast more spores , but that will be ultra op

yep would be nice to spread spores again. try several missions trough star chart. EOS have cluster of enemy so not issue of spread, in other situation and mission no so good tryed my self.  and sitll ability knows to freeze and kind broken. you will see sometimes enemy wont be infected simply becaouse it was behing wall not near cluster of foe. it has issue with spread

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Saryn rework is a nerf, to fun, to teamplay and a betrayal to every player who had invested too many forma onto this frame and as well to its regular variant. First of all I will say this corrosive change is not good brings back old Miasma spam builds and DE, please you guys know that we get a penalty for using our ultimate abilities at ESO so don't play the fool with this rework. This is a direct hit to Saryn just for ESO mode say that it wasn't or it was I don't really care. The new trend going on with stacks needs to die leads to a selfish playstyle, like I have to kill everything and build stacks or damage output, takes our focus away from the actual gameplay, primary secondary and melee weapons we have and specially from teamplay. These latest reworks or balancing projects you guys have been doing are good in its core like the intent of trying to offer everyone the same joy. But Ash is now only fun when you play him solo. Saryn is only good when you play her in a team where there isn't another Saryn. Also trying to keep the numbers up and spores alive is like really stupid if I lose em all in return. 

There is a stupid delay each time when a spore jumps onto another enemy. This was always there but we didn't mind it cuz we never lost all of our spores before creating another instance. 

I'm literally running around the map after my spores so that they don't die. 

What we need is;

A cooldown timer for her spore stack

Or

A cost to pay in return to create multiple instances of spores running

Or stack based unlocked synergies. 

The thing is not about nerf buff rework or balance. The joy I was having with old saryn is gone. The reason why I liked Saryn was because of her synergies and unlimited casting freedom for every ability. Like if you would do a backflip and do a narta old saryn would definetely synergize the two she was the girl of synergies and I miss her. She now feels slow clanky and boring. 

Edited by Shidonia
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43 minutes ago, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

Issue is spread. i did use 280% rng as focus farm, and run some missions test with 250% rng, unisex build so far. and i did get problems with spread. only real issue is spread it self. i can try their way of doing things and may like it but this need fix. it still have problems, random by player. had to die sometime in order to use it again, bugged, freezed  unable to spread and detonate and enemy behind wall like 5m from you did not infect. again good spread was in EOS duo cluster of enemy, other type of missions did not have clusters of enemy in relative small places. and yeah spread was issue. there was enemy but not so near for spores to spread and we talk about 5-10 from you and like 1 or 2 enemy behind wall which was not infected. b4 i could infect them with no molt-spores spam with 145 rng. now i do encounter issues in same situation with 250% rng. in any case spread and thus infect is issue with rewok. and if DE want you force into specific play style they must  in take into consideration that may not be good or ppl would/not like it. in short they will force their will and you will either learn to 'swim in system' or you can tell them to *** them self and delete game. and in that case no point of forums, talk to other player and players it self excange xp and opinions. again spread of spores it self in specific situation is issue and is broken and bad and need fix. 

if you dont understand that this spread range was INTENDED and this is how its supposed to work then there is no point in going on with this discussion. you do you! Hope you find another game developer that actually listens to the community. Nobody is forcing you to do jacksquat but if you want to abuse a system and call it your "play style" then you're the one in the wrong here. They didnt come up with the rework in one night without watching and listening to the community. This didnt come out of only one person's brain. They took their time to come up with this. Sure you wont get clusters in every mission, sure spores wont spread map wide. WHY WOULD IT? is saryn all about that one ability? I beg to differ. but since you wont accept the fact that its healthy for the community then there is absolutely no point for us to continue this conversation ❤️ 
Wish you all the best!

Edited by -Virtuoso-
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A requirement that Saryn or spores must kill the enemy for spores to spread is plain stupid. Do you guys want players of your coop shooter to only play solo?

It seems like there can be spores only from one Saryn on one enemy.

Spores fail to spread when an enemy dies from them and there are other enemies well within 40m range my UI shows me. Sometimes as close as ~10m and spores still dont spread.

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Posting this here for people to see

 

ZjR4d.jpg

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test_Solo_Hydron_Sedna_Wave_2

Links are working now

 

 

Proof Spore Spread is not affected by LoS

 

EDIT: This is the Sim. test I ran with equitable results. I apologize for the quality.

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

Here is a video in Sim of Spore interacting between two enemies without LoS. I'm working on another one out of Sim.

 

Saryn_Spore_LoS_Test

image?force_refresh=1526625194992

EDIT: I'll try and fix the quality on the next one

 

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@-Virtuoso- thx for debate man, it is nice to talk with ppl on forum regardless of opinion and i do vaule it. OK lets make some more precise 'issues'. first of all we have some game mechanic and player wish to nuke everything thus ruining other player game play. since we talk about saryn rework and point is on spores and how it does affect on player and game play. main issue is spread of spores in term of range and mechanic. after some runs and test i did notice problems with spread, thing is if you have cluser of enemy in small room you will infect them but incoming enemy from other room that was behind wall was not infected radius of enemy was not so much maybe 15m  but lot of obsticle in path. so with old saryn you could in term of range infect lot lot more, i did it in void surv 40 min and was spore spam and nuke it was room and 3 others on top of it, for comparison take estimate number around 60m+ range of infection. so problem was not in spore spread mechanic it was in players use of it and his desire to nuke everyting. so DE did took change of mechanic in order to change it becaouse they have no other way to infuence players gameplay. you can use some basic mod like streach, continuilty, intensify and other slot use for survavibility of frame. this is fairly cheap build and avaiable to most of players in game. you can cast spores and use toxic lash to spread spores in same situation to a lot more enemy than you can now after rework. this was not nuke build or so. for this you need reactor and 1 forma. so core of issue was player not frame or mechanic, mechanic of spread was good, not broken, freeze and lose spores as you expirience after rework and 2 hot fixes. at this point i did have problem with spread in random missions with much more expensive build (4 forma, valut mods and prime mods that i have all to grind and invest time to fit in mods and max them on top of it) after rewok. thing is that you coud do batter spread b4 with very little invest of time and res and grid. it was good and have some fun of spread spores and dinamic game play with no spam of spores all over map and nuke mob thus riuning other players game ( build dur 128, eff 100 range 145 str 145 cheap right?) now i have issue to spread them with 250% in same situation. as i did mention earler in posts at this pont spore spread are broken and bad with lot of issues, done with intention to prevent players to spam spores across 60m+ in mission as i could earlier. so i dont mind that, but i mind to have  probelm with spread spores around me for like 10-15m with lot more expencive build in star chart. as i sayed those incoming was not infected in relativly small room with lot of obstacles. so prevent to infect half of map 60m+ is kind ok with me no complain about it,  but you can limit range to fixed 15m for example so spread anything in that range (only talk is on spread of spores not corrosive nature, i wont reapat my self on that matter) so you will not spam all over map in insant, instead you will infect some area around you. With this rewok spread is not so good, only real good thing is for surv and EOS. real loss of range and spore spread affect focus farm/ dps build  (nuke map with spores), mean campframe and focus grind, have some use of it. but spore spread was not problem in any type of situation or mission, now you have problem. so reason for rewok was player abuse not frame or mechanic and unique dps style recognised in EOS and used as advantage, statistic say for it self. if DE wanted to remove this abuse and force player to change gameplay i can support on that matter, but i cant support spread system of spores at this pont is broken, bugged not do a thing to a mob which is close and should get infcted. if we had small fixed range of spead intead of this half working it just may may not work.  again i want to infect with spores and spread them in fix radius rather than spread and by pass enemy behind wall which was little behind cluster of enemy. i think if we can spread them like b4 but in fixed radius would be batter incorporated in whole spore rewok.

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge
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2 hours ago, -Virtuoso- said:

if you dont understand that this spread range was INTENDED and this is how its supposed to work then there is no point in going on with this discussion. you do you! Hope you find another game developer that actually listens to the community. Nobody is forcing you to do jacksquat but if you want to abuse a system and call it your "play style" then you're the one in the wrong here. They didnt come up with the rework in one night without watching and listening to the community. This didnt come out of only one person's brain. They took their time to come up with this. Sure you wont get clusters in every mission, sure spores wont spread map wide. WHY WOULD IT? is saryn all about that one ability? I beg to differ. but since you wont accept the fact that its healthy for the community then there is absolutely no point for us to continue this conversation ❤️ 
Wish you all the best!

if you cant accept other ppl opinion regardless if they are right or not than you have seriuos probem. as any player i can use any system game provide with. you dont uderstand that you are just statistic to game, take look back at recent weapon rewok. % use of specific weapon usage increased and you make that %. so no point of further argue, you use it or not no matter what you think about it. and every frame is about ONE abilty for specific task. and healthy is discusable in many ways. either way i am not only one with bugged and broken ability problem which ruin inteded game play by DE. other ability are fine with rework just for record, this one is problem since spore are core of game play for her. so yeah again spores need fix, range of spread between enemy and spore need fix was lot batter b4. if you are kid or not mature enough and just cant grasp what i am tellling you and look other players complain about issues around it

. than sry find some other way to make them know issue so they can fix it, or developer that actualy listen to the players problem idont get that impression here. you just post about it and hope they will read it and do something about it. not a single time post something like : 'we notice problems reported by players and we will address it in hot fix soon'. intead just get hot fix and hope that matter is addressed in this case 2 of them and prob are not solved still. 

Edited by -HoB-AngelofRevenge
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3 things:

- Have you guys consider changing her Toxic Lash to toggle? Like Excal's 4 and Nekros' 3? Obviously it will have an energy drain but since with her current rework Toxic Lash become easily one of her better skill (even without spores, toxic lash alone makes almost any melee weapon viable, via condition overload) But that might be OP?

- Perhaps it will help if you have a sound/visual differentiation to casting spores for the first time, and detonating spores (re-casting)? As it is at the moment (when its working) its hard to tell which is which (i guess partly because the spores UI is still slightly bug/broken/glitching as its not showing from time to time, or just stuck) But even so a sound/visual differentiation would makes game play smoother, instead of constantly needing to check the UI meter.... (its hectic enough we are now constantly checking where is the spores tick and trying to keep it spreading running left and right...)

- As mentioned by many others, play style of Saryn certainly change rather dramatically since the rework, Before this change lots will stay in one corner, spam the spores on molt, and wait for things to die. Now we have the extreme opposite! We are constantly running everywhere and chasing because we are chasing the spores with the intention of spreading it. I am sure there is a happy medium between the two? A time out option where if you recast under 2 sec it pops the spores, but if you recast after 2 sec you cast new spores?

Cheers

 

Edited by greiff
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10 minutes ago, greiff said:

2 things:

- Have you guys consider changing her Toxic Lash to toggle? Like Excal's 4 and Nekros' 3? Obviously it will have an energy drain but since with her current rework Toxic Lash become easily one of her better skill (even without spores, toxic lash alone makes almost any melee weapon viable, via condition overload) But that might be OP?

- Perhaps it will help if you have a sound/visual differentiation to casting spores for the first time, and detonating spores (re-casting)? As it is at the moment (when its working) its hard to tell which is which (i guess partly because the spores UI is still slightly bug/broken/glitching as its not showing from time to time, or just stuck) But even so a sound/visual differentiation would makes game play smoother, instead of constantly needing to check the UI meter.... (its hectic enough we are now constantly checking where is the spores tick and trying to keep it spreading running left and right...)

 

Cheers

 

Toxic Lash can be recast while active so a toggle would be a downgrade. It would just disable passive energy regen.

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3 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Toxic Lash can be recast while active so a toggle would be a downgrade. It would just disable passive energy regen.

True..... just considering spores now do not rely on duration of your frame, modding her for less duration to amp up other field means you need to recast every 10-15 secs..... But good point about passive energy regen.....

Edited by greiff
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6 hours ago, -Virtuoso- said:

I mean before rework i used 265% range saryn and my build hasnt changed even a bit after rework, still spreading, still dealing decent amount of damage and its scaling damage just like previous saryn (unlike previous tho where it would scale with enemy level now it just ramps up overtime, slight mechanics change). if its too difficult for you to understand that DE doesnt want people to stand there and spam spore then idk what to tell you either!

Sigh.. So when you press it once, and stand there (because you can do that more so) you think that it isnt countering the whole poiny of the new saryn?

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