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[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

1) Does miasma still do double damage when toxin and viral are on a target?

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:
  • Miasma inflicts double damage on targets affected by Spores. 

Yes it still does

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1 hour ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hi Tenno!

To clarify: 

does not qualify as constructive criticism and is therefore not welcome on our forums. If you read the posts of others here you will see there are many posts that provide thoughtful and insightful feedback on the proposed changes to Saryn. Most of these comments come with a mixture of positive and negative feedback, but even when feedback is only negative, it is conveyed from a place of sound reasoning. 

We do not use these forums to let people hurl context-less insults at the work of our developers, we use them to provide an outlet for players to provide meaningful feedback. If you have further questions, please review our Community Guidelines, or send someone on the Community team a message! As always, you are free to rephrase your feedback according to our guidelines, but simply saying something is "ruined" without any explanation and in a sarcastic tone is just not helpful to anyone.

Thanks!

Posts praising these changes before testing and those saying all variations of "thanks" are not being removed but they hardly add any value to debate.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt.

please do not remove synergies with abilities unless you absolutely have to. less options in combat is rarely a good thing

2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies.

this will make Saryn's synergy/strategy with another very specific warframe go from excellent to ineffective. While I admit that isnt my preferred playstyle, I would rather not take the option away from the portion of the community that enjoys it. if this change was intended to nerf that team composition in particular, I would humbly suggest buffing underused and/or underperforming frames instead. 

Corrosive Projection has been nearly omnipresent in the meta since its inception. Corrosive damage Spores does not sound useful in a party using 4 CPs. We do not need a tool to remove armor when it has already been removed passively. We already have an overused warframe that removes armor called Frost. Viral was useful. please consider another option with CP in mind.

thanks for reading

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Really don't think is needed. Saryn is fine the way she is, anything more is going to be overkill.
Link to her making endgame content easy; 

 

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Previous Saryn revork was not good, srsly. All thar "synergy" dances between 1 and 4 - noone needed them when we could only use 4 to kill everything around.
This rework sounds interesting on paper. I hope it will be that good in game too. 
Thanks for paying attention to old frames (but not for Ember rework - its awful).
Want to try Saryn in Onslaught for a long time - these changes will allow me to do it)

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3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

As an added bonus, Saryn is also coming with a whole new set of sounds! This is what Jeff Hartling, Sound Designer, had to say about the changes to Saryn’s audio: 

“We are giving Saryn a “voice” when she casts (voiced by [DE]Danielle), which will add character and make her feel more connected to the abilities as you cast them. We really amped up the “poison” aspect of her sounds so that she feels more deadly in combat. In addition, we’ve remastered all of her sounds to have increased clarity and focus.” 

You can expect Saryn Revisted 2.0 to launch on PC in a near future update! 

😕 Don't like this part. Hope there's an option to turn it off without turning off my game sounds.

 

The rest seems okay, need to see how this "scaling" damage works. Corrosive instead of viral is going to be a major nerf for her spores in squads though. Why not work on some of the more unloved frames like titania, wukong, nezha, even khora?

Edited by Feltal
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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    

  • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   

 

Why is this listed as if it's some drastic, massive experimental change when it's already how the ability works on live, albeit with reduced spread radius? Is this supposed to be saying they'd now spread at full radius, or just implying that you're no longer sure if you're okay with the ability having that function?

Also after some of the previous reworks, while this might be paranoid, I'm very much expecting significant range nerfs to spore without actually mentioning them in the rework notes. This has happened several times in the past, notably with several of Hydroid's ability areas.

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I have mixed feelings about this. The only way I can judge this is when the update comes out.

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Everything looks good to me except for the damage type change on Spores. I prefer Viral as debuff since it works against every faction, and Corrosive.. not really.

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So you're essentially bottle necking her to armour stripping? She'll be pointless verses Corpus and Infested (Ironic considering she was intended to be the Warframe designed to purge the infested LOL). I'm lost on why you're decoupling Spores and Molt to be perfectly honest. I assumed you guys where all for synergy but who knows  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  

Edited by TALISMAN_XVII
grammar.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt. Distancing the two abilities gave us the start we needed to give them their very own unique and self-sufficient design. Now they perform independently of one another, giving Saryn more options in combat.  Details are listed below

/s 

God I'm so angry!! Grrrr!! /s

I would say that I am angry, but I'm not really. I don't really care anymore. I would have used to be angry. 

But DE, I have to congratulate you. I think you've finally *removed* the hard core leveling meta missions. I can still level quite well in a varitity of different places so it no longer feels like there are meta frames to use to level. Thus, my interest in nuke frames has greatly deminished. 

I'm actually glad you're removing this synergy. It was cool and powerful while it lasted, but it forced Saryn into a specific form of play. Even when building for melee and regen molt, it still felt like I *had* to use spores on my molt. I'm glad you're removing this forced play type 

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Thank you so very much Danielle.
Looking forward to the new changes.
Hopefully this means she can now be viable in a sanctuary elite onslaught as well.
Instead of being revive-food.

Now all we need is Ember to get some of her power back.
Cos she never leaves the floor in an elite onslaught, since her nerf.

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il y a 2 minutes, TALISMAN_XVII a dit :

So you're essentially bottle necking her to Grineer armour stripping? She'll be pointless verses Corpus and Infested (Ironic considering she was intended to be the Warframe designed to purge the infested LOL). I'm lost on why you're decoupling Spores and Molt to be perfectly honest. I assumed you guys where all for synergy but who knows  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  anyway keep it up with the reworks! Soon I'll have no reason to play Warframe.

She still has viral in her 4 ability - so she wont be useless. Just will need another build. Having endless ability with 50% viral proc that hits every second is total OP.

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Im not sure if it's been covered by someone else, but how is the toxin spread from spores being handled? Myself (as a Saryn main) and a few people in my clan are concerned about the transfer of that damage. (Ie: A gas Lanka build can spread huge dps over a huge area, so it that damage spread being treated differently or deleted altogether?)

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8 minutes ago, WinterSaber said:

Having endless ability with 50% viral proc that hits every second is total OP.

So we're nerfing Saryn? Might as well bury her now.

Edited by Feltal
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In all honesty it sounds good but there is a few things I am very apprehensive about.

1) Spores doing corrosive damage doesn't seem right, Viral is universally useful, moving it down to Miasma seems, wrong even more so when we are limited to how many times we can use miasma via elite onslaught.  I think spores should remain viral and miasma stacks corrosive while it's on the target so it 'ramps up'.  I mean if enough frames come in with Corrosive Projection her corrosive spores become a moot point.

2) I think you should still be able to spore the molt, I mean she has always been able to do so, it is an awesome trap to set, and it is a great setup between things like waves of defense or a great way to hit enemies you can't see quite yet, the whole 'wait till line of sight' could cost precious seconds when something like an Ember or Equinox could pop and kill everything while your hunting for a target.

Other than that I only have one suggestion.:

Turn Molt's damage to Gas, so that way Sayrn can be the master of all things Toxic, from Viral, to Gas, to Toxin, to Corrosive, it would make her even more versitile and useful, double stacking Toxin is fine and all but a different damage type would be highly appreciated.

 

Other than that I am on board, but, yeah I think these things should be looked over.

 

 

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

 

  • Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
  • Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.
  • When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    
    • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   
  • Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.
  • A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores. 
  • Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Toxin) damage to all attacks.
  • Spores optimization! Under certain circumstances, Spores has been known to cause framerate issues in its current state. With the spreading nature of Spores in the rework, we’ve decreased the CPU burden which has made a noticeable change to the ability’s overall performance while active. There is still room for improvement but we’re fairly happy with the results so far!  

 

Really liking the sound of the changes... on paper, and mechanically it seems great for beating armor. But Saryn is the viral themed frame of the game, and with this rework...only her 4 has anything to do with viral..

What about giving her 1 a selectable damage type between Corrosive and Viral - (like the same way Ivara swaps functionality on her arrows)?

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à l’instant, Feltal a dit :

So we're nerfing Saryn now? Might as well bury her now.

Doesnt look like nerf. Though I am not the one who uses Saryn often. Played Ember mostly, but now - never.  I think this rework will make Saryn more interesting.

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What I have understand

 

Spore :

only one cast so we can't spam it to have more active spore.

 dosn't spread anymore with standars hits, only with toxic lash. Allies can't help to spread.

can't be cast on molt.

conclusion, Spore will become  hard to spread and for me, with elemental chance from viral to corrosif, it's a nerf to avoid large spread of viral proc.

 

question : does spore still spread toxic statut effect ?

 

Molt : 

good boost, does it scale with armor or life mod ?

 

Toxic Lash :

good boost too.

 

Miasma :

does it remove spore ? Miasma damage are yet only boost by spore on ennemies ? Viral and toxic status effect doesn't boost damage ?

100% status chance per tick, good boost, but usless because viral don't stack, the only positive effect is that the viral effect duration is incresed by the miasma duration.

 

 

Final conclusion : the actual saryn is fun to play, this change is for me a spore nerf to avoid mass viral proc with some other boost to ballance it (and making it less than just a nerf). The status effect of spore become usless against many faction.

It' s hard to see the imact of this change but it come to close from sanctuary, and I can't think it's unrelated. Spore can be spamed unlike 4th abilities so changing viral proc for 1st power to 4th power greatly reduc viral effect on sanctuary, and with the harder spread possibility it make  all this change a Saryn nerf for sanctuary.

 

Edited by Messkoo
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Since Elite Onslaught, I've fallen in love with Saryn and have been learning about all her eccentricities.  I'm excited with just about all the changes, however there's only 1 (and a half) thing(s) that have me concerned.  While infinite duration for spores sounds great on paper, I'm worried that the added detonation on recasting will serve as a much bigger negative than all of the buffs that come with it.

Previously, if a group of uninfected enemies drew my attention I would simply recast 1 on them so that they get debuffed and be on my way.  With this change however, I would have to weigh if I want to sacrifice the existing debuff on the rest of the map (which is ideally making my squad-mates' lives easier) such that I can increase my own DPS against the selected targets, or if I want to bite the bullet and engage the isolated enemies without spore affecting them.

Even if the detonate feature was relegated to an action that occurs if and only if there were no enemies present under the reticle, one can easily foresee many accidental "oops, I destroyed all my spores" moments when they miss an enemy, or even more frustrating, when the ai decides to move in the most unpredictable/spastic manner.

That is my only real concern.  The only other thing I'd like to bring up is more of a nitpick.  I'm thrilled with molt's changes, everything here is great.  However, I feel like it'd be more intuitive/unique if the baseline speed bonus it's getting and the augment for regeneration were swapped.  Newer players have very little means to heal themselves outside of conventional support frames, making regenerative molt almost a must-have mod, rather than an alternative way of using the skill.  With the augment giving the speed buff however, this is no longer the case and still something appealing that I would actively slot it in for sheer qol (which is what exilus adapter slots are all about!).  Furthermore, this change would drastically open up Saryn's build diversity, as the built in loop of trading energy for health would enable the use of rage and give her more options towards energy management.

Edit:  After thinking on it some more, I'd also like to add that I'm just kinda...Meh on the swapping of damage types and procs in her kit.  At the end of the day, this isn't going to change my condition overload build, but I feel like this might actually make her more energy hungry, as she will be more reliant on casting her 3 and 4.  I know in the ideal world, you'll be casting her 1 less, but one Viral tic as a proc is immediately more useful and consistent than corrosive, as corrosive procs must occur repeatedly and often enough to become even noticeably relevant due to the nature of scaling armor.

Edited by DBees
One more thing
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wow, after reading the topic title i was really worried

BUT, the changes you made are pretty good, lets see how it plays

 

ps. the concerns of some players are worth reading as well... mmhhh

 

Edited by RAZORLIGHT

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